yeah…He was a jerk for sure. he just happened to hit the wrong person at the wrong time and Dylan spots it…as Etta James sings… Its not always what you do but who you let see you do it.

Why did Bob Dylan never write a song about me? He writes songs about all sorts of “colourful” rapscalions, low lifes, working class types, and “those” women who, “…done him wrong…”
What did I ever do to him that I merit being so ignored?
Something like, “The Lonesome Life of Doris Day”, “This is the Story of Doris Day”, “Blonde Lady Like You”, “Glad Eyed Blonde of Beverly Hills”, and so on.
I am only asking but I guess I will have to be content with “Whatever will be will be”.

I remember when we were all in high school back in Duluth, and Rob, as we used to call him, constantly proclaimed he was going to be a star one day and bigger than Elvis. To that point he had displayed no musical talent for singing or performing and certainly not any talent for writing. Then one day he said he was going on a trip, and he was going to hitch hike to an intersection he had read of where a man called Robert Johnson also went to and made a deal with someone there to become a great guitarist, musician, composer, and performer. Rob said he wanted the same deal. He left, and a few years later, we discovered he was indeed successful. We dont know hoe he did it but that story he told us sends shivers down my spine each time we talk about back home.

You know something? Ever since I was a young boy, I’ve listened to BD, I’ve listened to his protect songs, and Hattie Carroll too, and I’ve read so many postings, on this site through and through, and my opinion is, you are all full of pooh.

Is it Minessota Fats or Minessota wrong Facts… Are you really sure the that when the wanker at St Andrews University of Scotland was giving Bob Dylan his honorary doctorate for ‘whatever’, the university President was boring him in an upper class ENGLISH accent? Do you not realise that St Andrews is in Scotland and that the President would have been attempting an upper class Scottish accent, whatever that is.

Also, I see we now have the local sycophant joining us under the guise of student!
Excuse me while I take a break to throw up!! yuk.

The Hattie Carroll song reminds me of another experience for Dylan.
Back when the wanker St Andrews University of Scotland was giving Bob Dylan his honorary doctorate for ‘whatever’, the university President was sitting next to Dylan boring him with questions about Hattie Carroll.
He was chewing Dylans ear off while attempting to affect an upper class English accent. Dylan was clearly bored (surprise…eh?), and was thinking that his next action would be to fire his personal assistant for leaving him alone with such a pompous old wanker. With his affected accent he sounded as if a family of haggis had taken up residence in his mouth the night before while he was sleeping, and had laid copious amounts of excrement causing the President to spout forth even more excrement than he usually does in such blabberings.
Dylan was in extreme discomfort, but looked down and saw that the President was getting his shoes polished by a working class low life Glaswegian called Rab who was plying a trade he learned in prison…licking the boots of the guards. Rab had a smile from ear to ear, he was enjoying a “perk of the shoeshine trade”…a perfect view up the Presidents kilt! Mmmmmm…Rab was thinking…”I do love this job”.
Anyway, the President stops speaking for a second, and Dylan jumps in with a question, “Sir”, Dylan says, “I was wondering, is there anything worn under the kilt?” The President replies, “Nothing is worn under my kilt Mr Dylan, everything is in good working order!”
There you have it Fast Eddie; a lesson on how to post, a joke, a story, and still on topic, not bad, eh? Now then, what song did Dylan write as a result of that experience?

I can understand why it is that Bob Dylan is so misunderstood relative to his notion of what constitutes right and wrong. In his early years he was young. In his middle years he was middle aged. Now, in his older years he is old. This means each of those ages gave him experiences that informed his thought and so, creative process. To unhderstand Dylan you have to understand this.

I am an English student in several courses with one of them being about the work of Bob Dylan. Currently we are studying Hattie Carroll.
I wish I had a teacher in my English writing class with even a fraction of the gift for expression as this Hammer of the Scots person has. Not only does he write intelligently, but the humour he permeates throughout his postings is never mean or petty but is refreshing and pointed. I hope I am a fraction as good as Hammer of the Scots when I start teaching.
What he writes about Hattie Carroll is accuarate, insightful, and informed, as a good teacher should be.
Thank you Hammer of the Scots.

Hattie Carroll was used by Dylan. Certainly, so was WZ. His (Dylan) agenda was clear…promote himself. The postings on this site confirm this, and that it is still going on. So, for people like Dylan (and me, it is too easy. No wonder it has been so easy over the centuries for people like us, and the likes of others including such as Band Aid types, We are the World types, other various types in the guise of do-gooders to pluck every last feather, morsel of meat, and money, from the pockets of others as I am doing linguistically, philosophically, rationally, cognitively, etc, on this site. I feel as though I am engaging with unarmed foes.
This is exactly why Hilary Clinton was unfairly swept asunder when in fact she should be the current President of the USA. When one calculates how many records (old LP vinyl records) it takes to build a bridge from here to the rings of Saturn, it is almost too much to fathom. What must Tom Sawyer be thinking of the world today? Why, only last week I had to visit Glasgow for a few hours, and it was evident to me that the place is still full of rotters, cads, bounders, wide boys, nyaffs, brainless bravehearts, kilted sheep chasers, and worse of all, ‘rabebrs’. No…nothing has changed since Hattie Carroll paid the ultimate price.

Has anything changed…really changed…in the USA relative to the attitude displayed at the time of Hattie Carroll towards coloured folks? Has Dylan ever done anything further on behalf of the coloured folks to alleviate their plight other than write a few tunes? For example, the royalties for the songs he wrote about HC, H, et al…did he keep them or did he give them, again, e.g., to the children of HC? I doubt he did. At least I contributed some of the money I made over the years from the sales of my output to various causes to help alleviate the plight of the coloured folks. I just thought thos posting was worth submitting (done of course vis a third party).

One wonders what goes on the minds of people who are only capable of responding, and not creating anything original. One wonders why good things are going on here, and, not so good things? One wonders why this is? Hattie Carroll is a sad part of history but there many other sad parts of history. One wonders why theye also are not immortalized as she and her situation have been immortalized?
Yes…One Wonders?

dylan was not trying to say anything more than what he wrote in hattie carrol.
and…is that all you have rab? quite honestly, there is more to the pickings from my nose than what you last posted. oh…and ‘’colleaguge'’ is a subtle (a word you appear not to know either) play on the meaning of what constututes a specific wanker from scotland…yourself. look for the clues…they are all there rab. like fast eddie, your stitches have failed thereby allowing what little grey matter you had to begin with to fall out for consumption by a hungry glasgow roach (and there are lots of such creatures in glasgow…the pubs are full of them).
wanker!
actually fast eddie, it looks like your ‘’stitches'’ have come loose and that part of your brain that is supposed to deal in facts has fallen out leaving you with only a small something that resembles a meal even hannibal lecter would turn down. scotland is in fact according to the UN, a ‘’third world country'’. if you are going to get involved at least start by doing the research to get the truth which is obviously not what is contained in your posting.
and tommy…i think you have one too many pinballs rolling loose around the old noggin because dylans hattie carroll song is NOT even a remote influence from an ‘’old ‘oirish song'’. and to quantify this, check out dylans and others who know dylan for the facts on hattie carrol.

this is great, you all bitching at each other over spelling,songs,where you come from etc i guess it stops you having to think about anything really important.Hattie carroll certainly isn’t Dylans best song (he even stole the tune from a trad irish song) but it must have something going for it or lots of people (us) wouldn’t be bothering to write about it. i was dissapointed to find out that Dylan had embellished the story.But i guess that just proves he’s human.

Dont ignore Bobby D…read him carefully, and pity him for he knows not what he writes about. Sad.

I like this topic. Bob Dylan wrote a good song. The postings here are interesting. Some more so than others. I like Dylans middle career work better than his earlier career work. His later work is designed to accommodate his voice and so, lacks the full creativity of the former. William Z was used by Bob Dylan as was Hurricane Carter but this is what artists do. Hattie Carroll is the real hereo in all this…or is she?

please ignore “new president on the block, hes been stalking me for weeks, going through my trash can etc, he certainly doesn’t know me and he scares my dogs! he needs medication. thanks. Bob.

This is one VERY interesting site with lots of sidebars, inuendos, and subtle comments / inferences both implicit and explicit.

Marvellous!

It is exactly such postings that Dylan loves (I believe) because they are informed, articulates, savvy, meaningful, and yes…both intelligent AND smart. Rare indeed for postings.

I would therefore like to commend the likes of Hammer of the Scots, By Extension, Who Can Say, I Agree, Definitely Not A Brit, and Wanker…all are a credit to thoughtful postings. In fact, this is exactly the likes of what Dylan posts under his various pseudonyms. I noticed at least two of his on this site…testimony to his approval of the aforementioned posters.

the live version of hattie carroll by dylan on the rolling thunder release is freakin’ awsome! in fact all of the songs on that release are awesome. dylan was really in the groove during that period. it was probably the best time period for his vocals also (unlike today…man, he sounds TERRIBLE!). however, back then, just like his gospel years…AWESOME! so too was his songs…exceptionally good. but, because they were ‘christian’, they were dismissed as inferior when in fact, religious biase notwithstanding, they were the most complex, quality songs of his entire output to this day.
hattie carroll benefited from later reworking of the song by dylan like so many later reworking of his songs. and it is this reworking of songs by dylan that really express his true genius, i.e., taking a good song and making it a great song…like hattie carroll.

I agree

WAY TO GO!

Way to go ‘Definitely not a Brit’…way to go!

This site is for intelligent, serious, and like minded afficionados of Dylan and the Hattie Carroll saga including her supposed murderer.

However, when idiots, and morons, and grade 4 dropuots like DR Winston ‘o boogie (has’nt even the imagination much less the academic capability to choose a decent name) come on this site and by his very presence permeates the site with his stench of failure and wannabe wankerism, it serves no good purpose.
So, by extension, he has shown himself to be related to Dylan by virtue of the fact he once sniffed the urinal that Dylan peed in.
Wanker!

I think you are thinking like sukrat, but I think you should cover the other side of the topic in the post too…

Good call martin, ” big fan of martin”cant even spell the name of the guy that he was supposed to be commenting on!!!! zantinger??!!?? People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. i think Dylan was right to write the song, and i wont be mourning Zantzingers passing. anyway i think you are all tossers and jizz drinkers.(look it up in a brit dictionary)

Thank you Mark, for the posting defending me. You have no idea how gratifying it is to me (not to mention my ever increasing bank account) that you do this. While you are in the mood, how about going out and buying a few more of my cd offerings. I dont mind which ones you buy so long as you part with your money and place it in my pocket. Hey…I may be a scumbag, but at least I am not a murderer etc, so surely this makes me eligible to receive your money you wanker!

Why is my name being used in so very many different ways to describe and / or represent the complexity of human failure, human foibles, human greed, human…well…you get the point.
Dylan is not a Wanker…I am a Wanker. Dylan is a Zimmerman, and also, to be quite frank I am sorry to write, a manipulative user of people, places, and things.
Zantzinger is not a Wanker…I am a Wanker. Zantzinger is a flawed human being, a product of the social programming of his environment.
However, Hattie Carroll is a Wanker because she, like me, is a decent person who lived life by the rules but got knocked down for doing so; this is the mark of a true Wanker. This mark is shared by HC, and I, and we wear the mark proudly.
I am now going to bed as a true Wanker does, with ‘twins’ (my hands).

Dylan may be a “scumbag”…but at least he’s not a murderer or tax cheat, nor did he defraud people out of their rent money.

Burn in hell, Zantzinger. You’ve earned it.

I have walked down symbolic Philadelphia in the footsteps of Honest Abe piggybacking on the myth that he and so many American dreams are now regarded as being true when in fact they are a composite of the imagination of the writers of history.
I see on my left Hattie Carroll…’Hello Hattie’, Jan 19 . 09 is for the likes of you. You were used by Dylan to expand his agenda (himself), and now I will use you also to expand my agenda (also, like Dylan, myself…hope you dont mind).
And for sure, to all of you Hattie Carrolls out there, ‘Now ‘aint the time for your tears!’ Your fears maybe (in fact, be afraid…be very afraid), but not your tears.

Oh…the things I have seen, experienced, and had to endure, and now this.

You know, by extension, all that is posted herein reflects the sad pulse of how music has literally de-evolved since those happy times years ago when out of the primordial ooze crawled forth a magic creature called The Beatles.

It was they and nothing or no one else that prompted dylan to become electric…especially, when he saw the truckloads of money he could get by doing so.
Lets face it…he sold out!
Mind you…he sold out better than most as is evidenced by the Hattie Carroll tale (tale by definition that reflects an event in a non-factual fashion).

…mmm…mmm…mmm…what is the difference?

what is the difference between what is posted and what is not posted?

whyat is the difference between dylan and Zantzinger?

Ah ha…put that in your pipes and smoke it!

enlargement….why dont you research the meaning of the word ‘wanker’.
it is a word that perfectly describes you.
you can begin your research on this site by checking out postings from other wankers like fast eddie, martin, melanie, etc…oh…and dont forget to include yourself in the research because it is obvious from your posting that you are also a wanker.

william zantzinger is NOT a wanker because he did what he did, right or wrong, as an outcome of a poorly thought out split-second decision. however, dylan is a wanker because in his clawing to kick-start his career and gain notoriety, dylan grabbed a hold of anything that would further his ’cause’, i.e., himself.

so…you have lots of wankers to choose from you wanker.

wanker!

There are some parallels with Mohammed Ali here. Many have argued that Ali was manipulated by his religious handlers into endorsing a crudely racist philosophy that was out of kilter with his consensual nature, but this is the opposite of the truth. Ali was radicalised, not by men in dark suits carrying guns, but by the tragedy of Emmet Till, a 14-year-old from Chicago who was lynched by white men for wolf-whistling at a white shop assistant while visiting an uncle in Mississippi in 1954. The two men charged with his murder were acquitted by an all-white jury in 67 minutes. “If we hadn’t stopped to drink pop, it wouldn’t have taken that long,” one juror said.

For goodness sake! Good luck to Obama, that’s what I say..

not true fast eddie, not true…you are in error.
zantzinger had the good grace and sense of timing to take his leave of us before…before…the fellow who won the arithmetic vote was sworn in to office. so, legally, etc, it is still a white guy who is president of the good old usa…the usa of one zantzinger.
plus, the guy who will be sworn in is not in fact, as you write, ‘’…a black man…'’ the guy is mixed race. get your facts straight, go to the corner of the room, put on your dunces cap, and stand there until you learn the facts.

Thankfully Zantzinger lived long enough to see a black man elected President of The United States of America

the song is great, as is hurricane,joey …etc they may not be 100 percent accurate but thats what poetic licence is, if wm zantzinger was that upset he would of sued bobs arse at the time of the songs release, but he didnt cos he was shitting his snobby,upperclass,privaleged,r acist pants (yeah i know i cant spell and you can all have great fun ripping the piss out of me) songs of meaning generally have a wee bit of poetic licence as do films,books, t.v programmes etc, i aint saying its right to distort the truth but to me it sounds like wm zantzinger was a shitheel, and i wouldnt of pissed on him if he was on fire (that goes for bush too!) bob got the essence of it right. carry on bob.

To “hey Mark Jordan”:

Where did you come up with the “fact” that Zantzinger was given the maximum penalty of the law? The maximum sentence for involuntary manslaughter in the state of Maryland is 10 years. Zantzinger was given six months. And he was allowed serve that time when it suited him best so that he could bring in his tobacco crop.

It was ruled that Zantzinger striking Hattie Carroll with his cane brought about her death — that’s what involuntary manslaughter is, no matter how hard you try to justify, excuse, and minimize his crime. Hattie Carroll wasn’t given the choice of when she could serve the “sentence” Zantzinger gave her.

I say good riddance. If your crime was horrible enough for you to have a song written about it by a famous artist, you deserve every bit of crap you get about it for the rest of your days.

peace and love

let he who is without sin, cast the first stone

1) Wrong.
Causing someone to die is not the equivalent of murder under any system based on English common law. Causing someone to die with knowing intent is murder.
There was NO evidence of knowing intent to use lethal force on the part of Wm. Zanzinger. He was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter by a three judge panel hearing the case, not in Southern Maryland, where Zantzinger was known, but in Western Maryland, where the case was moved to ensure a fair trial.
The panel then sentenced him to the maximum allowable time of incarceration then allowable under state law. He was given NO break by the sentencing judges.

2) Wrong.
Calling the toy a “murder weapon” is a distortion of the facts on your end. What was entered into evidence was in fact a 25 cent bamboo carnival cane. Also entered into evidence in the case was the autopsy report by the chief medical examiner indicating that there was NO evidence of physical injury whatsoever to Ms. Carroll.

3, Wrong again.
That same autopsy report said precisely that Ms. Carroll died of a massive stroke, the proximate cause of which was the EMOTIONAL stress she endured as a result of Zanzinger’s drunken and abusive behavior. It was for this reason — as well as Ms. Carroll’s pre-existing condition — that the pathologist was able to rule the case a homicide, not an accidental death, and therefore for Zantzinger to be charged with manslaughter.

Keep in mind that “homicide” is not a legal charge and in no way synonomous with murder. It is the legal term for any human death caused by another person. Zantzinger caused her death, no question, and he was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to the maximum allowed.

But absent any shred of evidence that he intended to take a life, or even inflict real physical harm, the Maryland court could only go so far.

She was not slain by a cane, that was doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle. Nor was he helped by high office relations in the politics of Maryland. And given that the prosecutors charged exactly what they could prove and the judges then sentenced Zantzinger to the maximum allowable punishment, the ladder of the law really did have no top and no bottom.

Zantzinger behaved in a crude and vile manner. He represents something ugly in American racial history and he was the proximate cause of woman’s death, even if he intended nothing of the sort.

Dylan is a great artist and the song is a masterpiece of balladeering and political message.

But none of that makes the song less false in its allegation. Saying the song is 95 percent accurate is absurd when the remaining five percent constitute an allegation of premeditated murder and then the manipulation of the judicial system — when neither allegation is supported by a single, solitary fact.

There was no miscarriage of justice in the Zantzinger case. He was punished to the appropriate degree of the law, as he would have been without the racial or social context. He was a drunk, ignorant, 24-year-old from a rural area of Maryland, whose racial notions were tragic and backward, and he behaved in a way that ended the life of an innocent human being, however unintentionally.

To say more than that is to libel him. Which is what Dylan did. Did he do it for some greater statement? Maybe. Is the song art? Sure.

But let’s not twist the facts to serve our admiration for a folk singer, or our contempt for a redneck. Facts are just facts.

….this is the key to expressing yourself on any topic in any outlet, format, or media, public or private…'’being informed'’.
agree or disagree with anyone who has an opinion but do so only if you are an informed person. more importantly, when posting, post only if you are informed.
far too many on this site and such sites are simply not informed.
it gets worse. far too many on this site dont even have the ability to create an opinion that even resembles an informed opinion. all they do is simply lash out at others and let their emotions or immaturity or ‘ism’, dictate their opinion, their posting.
now…what is the answer to this problem of there being too many uninformed people on this site? it is simple…let all of them read and learn…read, AND learn…from me. yes, i am saying that i am one of the very few who is informed. one of the very few who writes postings worthy of other peoples attention. one of the few people who knows enough about the topic (in this case, Zantinger, Carroll, Dylan…and yes, what does NOT constitute a posting.
i am not going to mention names of those whose postings leave so much to be desired and who in fact are simply embarrassing themselves by posting such ridiculous content. not, i wont do that. why? because, i am informed, and it beneath me to stoop as low as they have, and do. they know who they are.
So…from now on, follow my lead, and you will be alright. this is much like what Dylan does…is’nt it?

keyser,
That’s right that Zantzinger was human like the rest of us. But not all of us feel we are entitled to strike the hired help, not all of us bilk the poor out of their money as he did. It’s right that society demonize those who do. If society does not stand up to people like this, society is overrun by them.

First off, some people need to read the legal definition of murder; Zantzinger was rightly charged for manslaughter, but a woman dying not from trauma but an enlarged heart and anxiety caused by a rap with a cane is not murder under the law.

Both sides here are hardly blameless. Zantzinger was a southern “gentleman” from the early 20th century; as such, he’s a product of his times and environment. Does that excuse anyone from being a racist? Of course not, but it’s easy to sit on this side of the century and condemn it; it would be a lot harder to have been brought up to hate dark-skinned people and then shed it.

For those who would be so quick to demonize the man as a monster; let’s hope you are not judged with the stringency you apply to this man. He had a family, just like anyone else. His son is one of the best men I have ever known. He had a zest for life, and his greatest crime was not learning from his mistakes; but he was human as we all are.

Hey, this site is actually getting interesting, now we have lawyers that are actually telling the truth. I agree completely with One of Bobs Lawyers that this site has allowed wankers like srp, katyd, pileki, and others like these morons, idiots, and wankers. Lets get serious about this site and look at the facts instead of all the badmouthing that goes on on such sites. I like the freshness of the likes of Tammys in Love, oorstevie, and others but the likes of srp, katyd, and pilecki make me want to go out and throw canes wantonly into crowds.

Get a life you wankers! I did not read in anything that oorstevie wrote in his posting that he was asking much less expecting dylan to give any money to hattie carrol…oops…carroll with a double ‘l’ (I better get it right to please srp who has no life, and spends his time on looking for a spelling fault with a posting…'’HEY everyone, look, its me, srp, the resident wanker of this site, I see that oorstevie missed an ‘l’!'’
Dont worry you morons like srp, and katyd…my client is still happy to take your money while you keep defending him for ripping you all off all these years.
By the way, I spent time defending WZ. I double dipped at the public trough, and took money from Dylan, WZ, HC, and of course, you wankers on this site. Hey…I am a lawyer after all. Say…maybe grizzled old Bob could write a song about me?

Ashley, Christy Moore an Irish singer has also recorded this song. You might like to hear some of the other songs he sings too and can get more info on his website.
I think at the very least Dylans song raised awareness amoung the people of the USA and the world in greneral, as to how badly black people were being treated in the states. We are also aware, of how in some states, the courts found it hard to convict a white person of a crime against a black person. Dylan played his part with this song, however small it may have been, to give justice to the black people. I think it could be said that he helped to elect Obama…… and thank god for that !

“…poor William Zantzinger…” : shame Mr. Heylin, shame, shame … Tammys in love: your spiteful envy blinds you to the fact that a vow of poverty is not a prerequisite for bringing about positive changes ….oorstevie: Bob Dylan is an entertainer who has inspired, motivated, enlightened and gotten rich: he owes nobody anything.

why is it that anyone expects Dylan to give any money to Hattie Carroll’s family - oorstevie, you didn’t even spell the name correctly - it’s “Carroll” with two “l”s. For whoever else was the cynic here, and said Dylan was a “protest singer” that was a label he always denied (”All i ever do is protest…”) You read between the lines.

Did you give money to Hattie Carroll? Are you saving the world?

Seriously, what I’m not understanding is why it is that one person who actually stood up and spoke out is being held to a higher standard than some of the people here are holding themselves… Dylan did something - more than a bit = and that has had a profound effect on a great many people.

Your pithy comments will be forgotten.

Believe me.

Hattie Carroll died as a result of being assaulted by an arrogant, snot-nosed, racist aristocrat. Dylan used the song to portray a particular incident which reflects attitudes and injustices present across our society. That Hattie Carroll’s death has been, at least partially, avenged in a song that will be heard long after any of us are alive is evidence of the power of music as art.

it may not be art, but i like it.

its only rock n’ roll, but i like it.

never mind the bollocks, give us the money!

well its a one for the money…two to…etc, etc, etc

we are the world

dont they know its christmas…

..feed the world…

michael jackson is innocent (snigger…)

bring ‘em home, bring ‘em home (snigger…)

blowin’ in the wind (more like blow it out your !*s)

‘aint gonna play sun city

i have a dream

ask not what you can can do for others, ask who you can screw for yourself

in the ghetto

i could go on but whats the use. the rich get richer, the screwed get more screwed, and the song is always the same with the royalties going right into the bank account of the person least affected by the given situation…the profiteer (oops…sorry…the protest singer)

If you are responsible for someone’s death, as you are with a manslaughter conviction, be it voluntary or involuntary, it should hound you the rest of your life. If your conscience is so retarded that it will not hound you, it’s justice that you are hounded about it in other ways. Dylan’s song made sure justice was served.

Great ballad. Great story.

…there was no injustice under the law. Zantzinger was given the maximum sentence allowed for involuntary manslaughter. As it was a fact that a carnival cane did not cause any physical damage to Hattie Carroll, the only thing the prosecutors could charge was INVOLUNTARY manslaughter. Zantzinger was abusive and racist and crude and drunk and worthy of contempt for his behavior that night at the Emerson Hotel, but he was not guilty of even voluntary manslaughter much less murder. And given that he received the maximum sentence under his charge, those who say he was helped by political connections are full of it. His dad was a REPUBLICAN member of the legislature in the early 1960s — meaning in Democratic power, he had no drag at all. It’s a great song, but it’s based on hype and bullshit. Sometimes art is just that way.

I know the above because I reported on the case as a Maryland journalist. The song is great. Dylan wasn’t honest. Zantzinger wasn’t a nice guy. But Hattie Carroll wasn’t slain by a cane that was doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle. Live with the ambiguities: Sometimes contradictory facts are nonetheless true.

The song is not just about this man, but the lack of justice. If it where not for Bob hearing about the story and writing the song, it would have all been swept under the carpet and stayed there. Zantzinger may have suffered personal infamy, I don’t have much sympathy though. He was a symbol of a much greater injustice which needed to be exposed.

it’s ironic that this story is apparently in the same issue that will have Bush on the cover.
doesn’t anyone else see the similarities between the guy portrayed in this song and the outgoing president.
“he reacted to his deed with a shrug of his shoulders” Sounds just like Bush to me. I agree with everyone who is disappointed with RS for the way Dylan is made out to look like the bad guy here.
Poor William Zantzinger??? Give me a break.

at the bottom of the web page where this article appears is a picture of the cover of a recent issue of Rolling Stone with the mug of George W, (looking, I might add, a tad worn), and the headline “Bush apologizes”. Let’s hope the editors of RS will apologize for their reportage of this Zanzinger/Hattie Carroll incident. Shame on you RS for bringing in such a slant; including Heylin’s comments about “poor William Zanzinger” is adding insult to injury. A most grievous injury, ending in the death of an innocent woman. Shame. Shame. Shame.
That Dylan’s song continues, 30 some odd years later, to be an example of racism, and old-boy favoritism, and shines a small light onto some of the perpetrators of these evils, is a testament to Dylan’s ability to take “facts” and weave them into something that makes us stop to think. I’m astonished with the editors choices here, and, frankly, will never pick up another copy of Rolling Stone as a result. Shame. Shame. Shame.
Will you next, be an apologist for Bush? Will your poor readers be subjected to a sympathetic reportage of “poor George W”. I’m disgusted.

Dylan is a genius. This guy was a racist scumbag and Dylan said so. I don’t see the problem. Now, had the guy not caused the woman’s death, then I could see some frustration with the song, but since he did… oh well. Truth hurts.

keep the songs a coming Bob..

Damn right Bob Dylan has an agenda. Don’t we all? If Zantzinger felt slandered, he could have easily sued. The painful truth of the matter is that Dylan called him out and Zantzinger went out like a pussy.

Zantzinger? I thought this article was gonna be about Hollis Brown…

foxboro!! wrong song

I would also like the record to show that Dylan’s appearance on the Steve Allen Show performing “The Lonesome Death” sent shockwaves thru Maryland. Dylan was basically unknown in the state and the “Zanzinger embarassment” had been effectively hidden away after the court’s pathetic response.

The performance shocked and awakened many consciences among white Marylanders and for that alone, Dylan should be better treated by RS than he is in this shabby summary. White racists in 1963 were not used to being called out for their bigoted actions and the State of Md was rightfully embarassed by Dylan and I would say many judges thought twice after this tv appearance about their decisions.

After the Steve Allen show, the phones of my in-laws were ringing off the hook, cause this kid had called them out. It was an important moment that those of us who lived it know made a differance.

To bad RS and Heylin does not- hide your face that rag or rethink your article and your conclusions

Heylin is an idiot; Dylan got 95% of the story right. Zanzinger himself was not wealthy but the politics of rural Southern Maryland help protect him from the full and fair wrath of justice. I have lived in the area close to Zanzinger and know his sentance was reduced in order for him to get his tobacco crop in; again Heylin is an idiot, Denton is correct and Wm Zanzinger was a low life racist jerk, who basically got away with causing another human beings death for little cost.
His subsequent conviction for charging rent on lost property and having Charles County(who actually
owned the properties in question at the time) support him for yrs in court suits should give Heylin a
hint at how things were in Southern Md low these many years, This summary is SERIOUSLY in error in its exculpation of Zanzinger and helps create an historical defense and false marrative-Shame on RS!!!

Boo hoo for Hattie,,,,,so what.

I know if my actions resulted in the death of another human being I would take whatever punishment the justice system felt fit. I wouldn’t want the details of the nadir of my life distorted and then set in stone by someone using my name for inspiration and fame.

Bob told what he knew to be the truth.
This Idiot Zantzinger never knew the truth, or if he did he ran from it his whole life. The Song is one of Bob’s best.

Perhaps Dylan did “use” the story, but had Zantginger not done the deed, then he wouldn’t have had to live with it the rest of his life. KARMA! No pity for Zantzinger. Can’t say I really approve of this writer’s “use” of this story against Dylan either.

Reacted to his deed with a shrug of his shoulders
And swear words and sneering, and his tongue it was snarling,
In a matter of minutes on bail was out walking.

Doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle.
And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger.

To show that all’s equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain’t pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled

exactly right mark jordan

Oorstevie nailed this one. Thank you. Everyone wants to take a story and use it - exploit it, really - fit his or her view of the world.

Uh, yeah, Zantzinger sounds like every other moron and idiot who has ever committed a crime of that magnitude has a victim mentallity. Bob did him right by singing about him.

“I should have sued him and put him in jail.”

Arrogant to the end. What an ego. Dylan got it exactly right.

Dylan was right .Zanzinger was a piece of **** and with the help of the green & the “old boy network “& the red tape the scumbag got slapped on the wrist!God love you Bobby!

I fail to see where Dylan “lied.” Saying Hattie was “laid slain by a cain” is not a distortion. She would not have died that day were she not struck by Zantzinger.

Should Dylan apologize to Byron De La Beckwith, too?

Give Bob a break …he writes a groundbreaking song which as far as anyone can tell is closely based on a true story , which has and continues to raise awareness of the most significant social issue in American history and is accused of cashing in …puhleeze !!! …the world needs artists like him ….where are they now with the multitude of problems that beset the world ?? I do have a tinge of sympathy for poor old William being notorized in this way but if you can’t do the time don’t do the crime

lets face it folks, there are 3 wrongs here in this saga, and Hattie Carrol committed none of them but instead had all 3 committed against her.

William Zantinger:
He did do something WRONG. He struck another person without real provocation, with an object for no good reason to the point of injury that resulted in delayed death of that person. As per the ‘law’, he paid the price (i.e., the ‘price’ being relative to that time in that region in that culture…as per the ‘law’).

Bob Dylan:
He did something WRONG…he took advantage of a situation. As Dylan has done so often with his lyrics…etc…he took all of the following licence…poetic, lyrical, artistic, dramatic, etc, and embelished the facts to suit the ‘tale’ he was intent on telling with the very specific bias / outcome he wanted…was determined…to achieve. He had an agenda…regardless.

The system…the law;
They did wrong…against Hattie Carrol

Hattie Carrol:
She did no wrong. In fact…possibly the only fact in all of this…she got screwed…by everyone, including Zantinger, and Dylan, not forgetting both the system she lived in, and the law.

This is the real story, the facts…that she got screwed!

Zantinger discarded her. Dylan used her. The system / law discarded AND used her. Wrong, wrong, and wrong!

Mind you, it it was a good song / story but became a better one later when Dylan matured, and performed it live to give it full life, on stage, during the Rolling Thunder years.

I wonder if Dylan ever contacted her children to give them any of the money he made off her misfortune?

And I hope that you die
And your death will come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I’ll watch while you’re lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I’ll stand over your grave
‘Til I’m sure that you’re dead

poor william zantzinger? what about poor hattie carroll? Zantzinger was scum white trash. Dylan got it 100% right!

thanks to Mark Jordan for pointing out what ought be painfully obvious to most, but sadly is not always.

Dylan said it best:

But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Take the rag away from your face.
Now ain’t the time for your tears.

***
Indeed.

You couldn’t give a little love to the site that linked you to the Maryland newspaper? It’s called crowd-sourcing, and if RS understood that their reporting benefits from the communities that dig up stories like this, they might get a little more love themselves on the interwebs.

Saying the facts are distorted in the song is a cheap ploy to make Zantzinger appear as a victim. If anything, the song is too easy on this piece of filth. He lived out his life, unlike Hattie Carroll.
Clinton Hayton’s theory that Dylan lied, ignores the facts:
1. Causing an injury that leads to another person’s death is murder. If you rob someone who has a heath problem, and they die during the robbery, you have murdered them. You do not need a severe blow to the head to cause a brain injury and death.
2. Calling the murder weapon a ‘toy’ is another way to distort the facts. A cane, even a toy one, can be a weapon. They are often weighted with lead.
3. The final bit of b.s. comes from listing Hattie Carroll’s preexisting heath problems, and hinting they were the ‘real’ cause of her death. Do we blame Hattie for not being able to stand up to the demands of her job as a servant, one of which is to fend off blows to her head for tardiness?
I thank Bob Dylan for all his great work.

Ok, song distortions aside, Zantzinger still was a low-life jerk, according to this article. Dylan owes him no apology.