A little harsh but certainly true. Cream was an amazing band , much better than the overrated Led Zeppelin. Screw Zep let’s get some more Cream reunion shows.

Dude, fire the bartenders at that gig, these old guy are gonna regret raising their blood pressure, and I like having them around, kitten’s and ensure for the whole lot of em’!

Classic rock feuds are in the Wolfpac. I love it. Of course, Robert Plant will no respond to this, but it is still awesome to think of the possibilities. Reality show, anyone? Rose vs. Neil? John Fogerty vs. the rest of CCR? Get in the ring, MF’er!!

You gotta be kidding me! Zeppelin is one of the most influential rock bands of our time. Stairway and Kashmir alone blow Cream out of the water.

Cream couldn’t blow a load worthy of Led Zeppelin.

wow, sure Cream had a good run that lasted how long? like 2-3 years? Zeppelin…about 11 years. Cream kinda created the category of hard rock, but Zeppelin expanded on what they were doing, Zeppelin is much better then Cream, Jack Bruce needs to stop being a whiney bitch about a stupid tribute concert, and that he couldn’t do what Zep did.

fuck off your just jelious cuase zeps better

Genius+Jazz+Blues+Soul+Classic al+AvantGarde+Bass+Cello+Harp+ Piano+Voice+AmazingOriginalSon gs+MikeMantler+CarlaBley+Lifet ime=Jack

BadFalsetto+Pompou sMedievalBullshit+OneDimension alDrumming+SloppyStonerGuitar+ RiffsRIPPEDOFF!STOLEN!FromBoDi ddleyWillieDixonandMuddy=Zep

Here we go with endless debates. Was Clapton more creative than Page? No. Is Clapton more technically proficient? Yes. Did Cream have more “chops”? Yes. Did LZ have more stage presence and a better vocalist/frontman? Yes. You hear similar arguments about U2, who aren’t exactly the world’s best musicians, but when all 4 of ‘em get on stage, they cook. Cream and LZ both rock. End of story. As much admiration as I have for him, Jack Bruce sounds like he’s a jealous bitch. It takes a lot more to keep a good thing together than to flash in the pan and then flame out.

Cream broke up because this guy is a total asshole. God Bless Led Zeppelin. At least they could keep a band together for longer for six times the length of Cream’s brief and wildly overrated career.

The classic line up of The Who is better than both of those bands.
Plus The Who had a sense of humor.
How many songs does Zep have where
Plant sings babyyyy, babyyyy, babyyy, babeeeeeeeee!!!
Cream and Zeppelin are right up there, but I’ve always preferred The Who.

Clapton – overrated.
Page – overrated.
Gallagher – genius.

Im sick of these constant arguments about all time greatest guitarists no matter where they go on and Rory Gallagher never being mentioned he could do amazing things with a guitar!!

This is hilarious. Cream is a joke and Eric Clapton is the most over-rated, lackluster guitarist I can think of. Led Zeppelin are the quintessential rock band. Every single band member was ahead of their time. John Bonham probably choked to death because someone compared him to Ginger Baker.

Cream was a great band, no doubt, but Bruce just sounds like a 12 year old kid. Grow up already. Nobody likes to hear an old man whine.

I saw one of the Cream reunion gigs in New York and (as Clapton describes it in his book) it was an under-rehearsed mess. Bruce couldn’t come NEAR the high notes he sang in the 60’s and Ginger Baker looked three inches from a stroke the entire time. Only Clapton was in game shape because he’s constantly been on the road. I love both bands, but if I were Bruce I’d think twice before shooting my mouth off about how great Cream is NOW.

Ryan….there were Cream reunion shows, nobody cared though.

Even you superfan…where were you?

I know where I’ll be if theres a Zep reunion…In line with half the planet to get tickets to the most anticipated concert ever.

Put it this way….Jack Bruce and Cream haven’t been relevant in 40 years….Led Zeppelin can still be heard playing in parking lots in High Schools.

I respect cream but they got what? like 5 good songs? led zep got a truck load…
led zep better

and abt the guitarist
in order of guitarbetterness
Repeat after me…
hendrix>clapton>duaneall man>page>harrison>keithrichard s>townshend>brianmay>gilmour>c obain>hammet>jeffbeck>angusyou ng>knopfler>joeperry>andysumme rs>frusciante>morello

kapiche ?

Hey Jack Bruce, get real. Yea, your BAND (not YOU) were pioneers, but you faded away as Zeppelin took your style and made it oh so much better. Much love to Cream, NONE to Bruce. By the way, everyone knows that clapton is far superior to all buy The One, being Jimi Hendrix, so quit pointing out the obvious.

“Let’s face it: Jimmy Page ain’t no Eric Clapton, no matter what anybody thinks,” Bruce said.

correct, Page is not a racist like Clapton.

Pink Floyd and David Gilmore, guitarist are superior to them all. Their creativeness and concert shows were second to none. Gilmore may not be a speed demond on the guitar but his creative melodical solos take you away like no other ever could.
Cream and Zepplin, Hendrix, Page and Clapton are certainly in the top 5 all time bands or guitarists.
Beatles still right up there with Pink Floyd at the top of bands. Both based on their ingenius musical creativeness.

Plant now resembles a dried up prune with blonde hair poking out of it.
His screech is well past it’s expiration date.
Page looks like William Burroghs warmed over

Beatles at the top of bands?!? Maybe poppy bands, but their fluffy poser crap doesn’t hold a candle to Zep, Cream, Floyd or The Who. By the way Jim, its Gilmour. You probably should learn how to spell the greatest guitar player ever’s last name.

Who is Jack Bruce?

Kiss my ass Cream fans, Page Is God and so is Clapton.
You need to recognize your jealousy and chill out.
Achilles-will smoke any Cream song!

Jack Bruce isn’t the first of his generation of British musicians to make such comments. There’s a great deal of jealousy among them, as they saw the enormous fortune that Led Zeppelin made. These guys all know each other from way back, and while many of them enjoyed varying degrees of fame and fortune, only a very few made it really big. Get real, Jack. Do you honestly think that had Cream headlined the O2 show, that the ticket demand would have been anything close to the global internet overload caused by Led Zeppelin?

Iceman, no need to be sarcastic. The spelling is not the important thing. I don’t usually win many spelling bees. Who gives a flyin fuck about that. It’s the fact about Gilmour being the best. Thats the point here and we seem to agree on that. I admire you for that for sure.
As far as Beatles, try getting smoked up one day and sit down in front of a good sound system and listen to Abbey Road, Let it Be or Sgt Peppers Albums. I really think you may change your opinion on their later stuff at least. Poppy in the begining yea but that was the thing in the early 60’s.
Zep, Cream, Floyd, Hendrix,Who, Beatles,Deep Purple, they were all great as were the musicians in them. Why would anybody, even Jack Bruce, badmouth any of them. Look at the fantastic classic rock music they all put out for us to enjoy compared to most of the crap being put out by todays bands .Look at the test of time they have all endured. And young people love them as well as us older ones so many years later.
Keep Rockin’all you guys.
Lemon, how could you make that nonsense comment about Clapton being a racist. Have you ever seen his Guitar Festival DVD’s. Sure were a lot of Black musicians on there he invited..Have you ever heard his album ‘Ridin with the King’together with BB King(A black guy in case you didnt know.) Clapton worshipped the old Black Blues dudes like Robert Johnson,etc. Most of his own guitar stlye comes from them. You should do your homework before making terrible comments like that

I wish Eric Clapton would fook off. He’s a fooking awful person and fooking boring guitar player.

cream was a great band. the thing about eric v. page is that eric don’t rock much. he is a bluesman. and eric tended to often be uninspiring and boring in comparison with jimmy and other rockers. guitar is attitude and jimmy has it. eric don’t

Jack Bruce is a coward, if Cream are 10 times the band Zeppelin is then why not have the balls to try proving it by playing the show at the O2 last year? Zeppelin hijacked the gig? Give it a rest Jack. Cream, the Stones, Pete Townsend, you’re all cowards for not playing that show last year out of respect for Ahmet. If your all so much better than Zeppelin than why did you not appear at the show and cower into a corner instead? As far as Page is concerned, though his playing can no doubt be sloppy, it’s more exciting and thrilling to listen to than the same old regurgitated blues licks Clapton’s been playing over and over for 40 years now. I’d go see Page 100 times before I’d see Clapton once. Go kill yourself and get it over with Jack.

Man this is ridiculous. It’s also ridiculous that people are putting Clapton down on here as well. I don’t think that slowhand has the ego to lump himself into this mess let alone care.

I think that Page played much more musically interesting music than Clapton, but I give the edge in actual chops to Clapton. Most of what Page did outside of blues was written by JP Jones anyway (although not Bron-Y-Aur which is my favorite).

Jack Bruce is a total tool. I doubt he wrote anything that Cream played and is at best a mediocre bass player. Ginger Baker is still a virtuoso drummer out gigging in sweet jazz and world ensembles and Eric’s rehabbing all the addicts who can make it to Antigua. At this point Bruce is probably living on borrowed time, probably borrowed money and not far from spending the rest of his days in a … White Room.

On the comment below in regards to Clapton it should say… no longer has the ego. Also in regards to the Page v Clapton controversy going on here. (Keeping in mind that I love Page a ton, and listen to him much more) You would do well to check out Jimmy Page and David Coverdale, Clapton never made anything that bad, and actually churned out some sweet (as well as dated) stuff in the 80’s.

One more point to make (while still loving the Page). I’m thinking most guitar players out there would agree that Clapton is a lot harder to play, and especially when you consider that Clapton always was his own front man. Melodic singing against what you are playing is tough to pull off.

And to kick a dead horse The Yardbirds featured Jimmy and Eric and only one of them was a huge star immediately exiting that band. Jimmy needed John Paul Jones knowledge to put him over the edge.

Having seen Zeppelin in 1977, I can say they were amazing & the footage I saw on You Tube of the London show was tight and on target, like days of old . The footage I saw of Cream’s reunion bears out that they were lethargic & showing their age (they didn’t seem happy to be there with each other). It took Steve Winwood to wake Clapton up (the footage of their semi-Blind Faith reunion was hot—as was BOTH their guitar-playing. Winwood IS the savant there). Cream was a great group and, setting things straight, Jack Bruce was the primary song-writer of the group as well as the main vocalist—Clapton got alot of the hosannas (especially from Ertegun, who was a bit of a star-fucker, in all honesty)because he was the guitarist. But Cream never had the consistent songwriting that Zeppelin had or the band feel. Cream was 3 guys trying to out-solo and impress each other, for much of the time. Zeppelin made the songs the centre of everything–even long solos had a purpose, most of the time.
I would without a doubt give Zeppelin the major advantage as a band (nice to see people send appreciation to JP Jones, the amazing multi-talented musician/ arranger of the band) and songwriters.
As to Clapton versus Page–I would say Clapton is cleaner, but not as exciting to listen to as Page, usually. As Rolling Stone themselves noted in the 70’s, Page, along with Hendrix, expanded the vocabulary of the electric guitar more than other popular guitarists.
All of these comparisons from Bruce and all of us are pointless—2 great bands, 2 great guitarists.
So how about Jeff Beck? He’s a rocket himself.
As to the Who–try the Small Faces & The Faces and you will see how great Kenney Jones is as a drummer (Moon was great at his peak too) & Steve Marriott had possibly the best all-around Rock and Roll voice ever (another pointless comparison). And let’s never forget The Kinks at their peak….
And then, their’s North Americans like The Byrds & Buffalo Springfield…..
My issue–why are there no current bands, excepting U2, that bring that consistent joy to the game?

Of the original 3 great Brit guitarists, Jeff Beck is easily the best and interestingly enough,has gotten continually better over the years- Jimmy Page is a fierce, innovative (if somewhat sloppy) out and out great electric guitarist….Clapton…just never got any better -slicker, yes -but his playing is a dreary affair -no fire at all -I saw both him and Beck at last years Crossroads Festival here in Chicago -Beck was simply on another level. As is Page.

I was actually a teenager when these bands were selling their first records, and Cream was a lot more popular at the time than Zep. But as I’ve gotten older, Zep’s music has held up much more. But it’s apples and oranges: both are great, just different.

THE FINAL CONTROVERSY:

“CREAM IS BETTER THAN LED ZEPPELIN”…

The answer is Led Zeppelin took music to new levels… “Stairway”.
THEY WERENT SOME KINDA BANDS THAT SOLD OUT! They were true to rock. They hated singles. They loved their shows. They loved their fans. They loved their music. They never said Cream, Jimi Hendrix suck !!!

My verdict: The reason the Led Zepp rocks better than Cream is because they are Gods of Rock.

They had the Greatest Rock Singer, Drummer, Guitarist andone of the best Bass/Keyboard Player (the best is Paul McCartney)

If they had only done “Kashmir” in their entire career. they still are better than Cream.

CONTROVERSY #3: “Page ain’t no Clapton”

1. Jimmy Page and Tony Iommi are responsible for taking riff-ing and Hard Rock to a new level. Without them Heavy Metal would not exists, let alone countless 80s metal bands.
2. Clapton was amazing but for a period of about 7~8 years (1963 – 70), Page the whole of 70s.

SPEED: Page > Eric (”Heartbreaker solo”)

TECHNIQUE: Page > Eric (”Dazed and Confused”)

RIFFS: Page >>>>> Eric (”90% of Led Zepp songs)

SOLOS: Page > Eric
Page has the better solos: (”Stairway to Heaven”, “Tea for One”, “Heartbreaker”)…. most importantly “SINCE I’VE BEEN LOVING YOU”. Clapton is good, but not as good as page (”Crossroads”, “White Room”.)

CONTROVERSY #4: “Led Zepp stole songs”.

Cream played them aa a cover, they never wrote many orginals eg. “Crossroads”. Led Zepp hasn’t ‘’stole” any songs eg. “Whole Lotta Love” is similar to “You Need Love” in about 10 seconds only. “Stairway” opening is vaguely similarly to “Taurus”’s opening.

WHY ARE THERE SO MANY IDIOTS ON THIS WEBSITE?

Cream is Blues-Rock Band…
A Band that usually played before a small audience behind 4 walls.

Led Zeppelin is pure RockNRoll. The type that appeals to a larger audience.

CONTROVERSY #1: “LED ZEPPELIN IS CRAP”

1. Crap bands cannot get popular (Coldplay and others, excuse)
2. “Stairway”,”Kashmir”,”Achilles ” cant be done by a crap band.

CONTROVERSY #2: “LED ZEPP IS OVERRATED”

1. The answer is YES & NO.
2. When one sees the recognition Deep Purple, well maybe.
3. When compared to repetitive and boring songs(except few) of Stones, Led Zepp is underrated!

I Love Zeppelin, but the dude calling others idiots is dead wrong about Zep never stealing songs.

Off the top of my head “Babe I’m Gonna Leave You”, “In my Time of Dying” and the Page instrumental “Black Mountainside” are all traditional or arrangements of..

Sorry dude, didn’t realize you were saying they never ripped off Cream. Good call on the Purple too, Steve Morse technically whips on Page and Clapton. He is a screaming good guitar player. Way ahead of his time (ex. Al Di Meola, McLaughlin)

suprise, jack bruce is still an a-hole.

My Verdict -I essentially agree with you on the various points you bring up: I would also mention the solo on Black Dog -beyond anything Clapton has ever attempted. And yes Eric Clapton is essentially a blues guitar player -but he has none of the fire of say Ronnie Brooks -or Buddy Guy….in fact, he has become average -seeing him preside over the Crossroads Concert last year, Stevie Winwood came out and SMOKED him on the Blind Faith stuff -to the point of aggravation -like, when is this guy ever going to play?

I love Cream as well -but as beautifully as Ginger Baker plays on the reunion dvd -the music is so one dimensional and basic compared to Zeppelin -and the way the play it now, is problematic at best. While Page at 02, was incendiary, undiminished in his brilliance. As for comparing either of these two players with their contemporaries Deep Purple or others, the most appropriate foil is, JEFF BECK- probably the finest electric guitar player alive today and, the work he is doing now, is miles beyond where Hendrix was at the end of his run. Though, I have always felt Hendrix was overrated anyway. I saw Zeppelin twice in 69 -tour 1 and 2 -and, having gone on and seen most major players around before and after that -only Beck seems better -though you have to separate him from the context of the music he chooses to make -as most of it is not all that great-

Hey Jack go back to the weeds. Sit in your sea of green, playing with fire will only get you burnt.

Crazy opinions on here! All this talk about Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck etc. My favorite band of all time is Led Zeppelin. Jimmy Page is amazing as well as the whole band, each member individually. However, Jimmy Page is a genius. Producing, co-producing, mixing, arranging etc. All the extra work he has put into Led Zeppelin’s records, not only his guitars. It tends to go un-noticed. I think that everyone here is being blind-sided by the extraordinary talents of one Stevie Ray Vaughan. Nobody has ever touched this guy and probably never will. Just pure intensity, feel, and heart.

though i think bruce comments are in bad taste, but if you compare both bands, for my money cream was indeed a better band than led zeppelin. after listening to both for over 20 years, i feel cream has stood the test of time much better than led zep. and cream were pioneers in a way led zep were not – so bruce is right in the sense that they and hendrix paved the way for led zep. and as randy rhodes himself pointed out, page was a sloppy electric guitar player – but he was very good on acoustic. and in terms of sheer guitar virtuosity clapton is definitely a head above page. but page was the better composer.

Jimmy Page is a sloppy electric guitar player: SO WHAT! Listen to what he attempts -even when he falls short. Neat and nice doesn’t make for much exciting virtuosity -Clapton being a prime example of overly refined blandness…..its weird having this discussion about rock/blues -in classical music -there are all the violin vituosos coming out of asia -that never make a mistake -and yet everyone knows that Anne Sophie Mutter-gliches and all is by far the most technically gifted fiddle player around -not only with her tone and dexterity, but, her vision. She makes mistakes- so what! So did Heifetz! Clapton is polished and ordinary at this point -he and a whole host of other players -like the late Stevie Ray Vaughn all give us their version of the same blues riffs done with a flat pick and some variation of nuance/style…all too similar styles -anyone who would compare Vaughn to the way Jeff Beck is playing today with his AMAZING skill -with both hands -sans the flat pick, his huge vocabulary of scales/ time signatures -out and out mastery of musical language -which for the modern and relatively new instrument-the electric guitar, better go download Jeff -or Guitar Shop and school themselves so as to not appear foolish.

-a last thought: what has Clapton done since the days of Derek and the Dominoes? Where is all the great playing, the great guitar records? There isn’t and aren’t any. Page went on until the early 80’s -but when you do hear him -his great tour with Plant reinventing Zepp songs -or, his work with Jerry Lee Lewis -or The black Crowes, or the BRILLIANT O2 Concert, he sounds GREAT! Fresh and, fierce! -At the Clapton Crossroads Festival -it was readily apparent to all that while Clapton had busied himself becoming a wealthy entertainer, not growing much as a musician, Jeff Beck had stayed in the garage, tinkering with his hotrods and practicing late into the night, his geetar. In fact, at this point Beck-Clapton is an unfair comparison.

What has Jack Bruce done since Cream? Ringo and his All Starr Band. Enough said.

Every picture tells a story. Is that the ugly brother of John Paul Jones!?

Although Jack’s comments are over the top, I have to say that CREAM was the bomb! Both bands were equally unique in their own right. You really can’t can’t take anything away from either band. But for my money, CREAM was THE most unique TRIO the changed the face of music. Everytime they played live, they came up with a different version of the same song. Something that has not been duplicated 40 years later.If you have any doubts, listen to live versions on WHEELS OF FIRE of SPOONFUL or CROSSROADS. Zeps arrangements were awesome, but as a bass player/singer, NO ONE HAS COME CLOSE TO JACK’S BASS PLAYING AND SINGING AND CREAM’S IMPROVISATIONS.Anyone who disagrees, HAS TO GET REAL!!!!

cream outshines zepplin any day of the week .

>Clapton being a prime example of >overly refined blandness

did you watch clapton in the cream reunion two years back? tell me if page can do what he did on the reworking of “stormy monday blues”? such was the power in clapton’s soloing, ginger banker simply coundn’t help but shake his head in disbelief. yes i agree that in recent years clapton has indeed become bland, but with the right company he simply shines. as i said earlier, page was the better composer, but he can’t make clapton live.

>Clapton being a prime example of >overly refined blandness

did you watch clapton in the cream reunion two years back? tell me if page can do what he did on the reworking of “stormy monday blues”? such was the power in clapton’s soloing, ginger banker simply coundn’t help but shake his head in disbelief. yes i agree that in recent years clapton has indeed become bland, but with the right company he simply shines. as noted earlier, page was the better composer, but he can’t match clapton live.

>What has Jack Bruce done since >Cream? Ringo and his All Starr >Band. Enough said.

he actually recorded very good albums like “songs for a taylor”, “harmony row” etc. even his recent collaboration with robin trower ’seven moons’ is surprisingly good.

Eric Clapton ain’t what he used to be either. To think the same guy who played in Cream and recorded Layla has been perpetuating the same mediocre middle class, middle age white suburban dad blues for years. I’m sorry, I do love Cream but all the footage I’ve seen as of late leaves me a bit cold. Clapton’s tone is just plain weak. Cream sound was based on Marshall amps and lots of them. Then again, I’ve seen Eric play through Marshalls and make them sound weak too. Clapton is more “polished” than Page IMHO but being “unpolished” isn’t a bad thing either. I’m no huge Zep fan but they seem to have at least stayed true to the sound of the band. I love Jack Bruce’s playing but he’d do well to just play and NOT TALK.

“Here we go with endless debates. Was Clapton more creative than Page? No. Is Clapton more technically proficient? Yes. Did Cream have more “chops”? Yes. Did LZ have more stage presence and a better vocalist/frontman? Yes. You hear similar arguments about U2, who aren’t exactly the world’s best musicians, but when all 4 of ‘em get on stage, they cook. Cream and LZ both rock. End of story. As much admiration as I have for him, Jack Bruce sounds like he’s a jealous bitch. It takes a lot more to keep a good thing together than to flash in the pan and then flame out.”

^ that guys got it all right…both of them are amazing bands, each in their own sense…and to all those who say that clapton is an “overrated” guitarist….i suggest that you go listen to Jams I-V from the layla sessions….that should change your tune

“Here we go with endless debates. Was Clapton more creative than Page? No. Is Clapton more technically proficient? Yes. Did Cream have more “chops”? Yes. Did LZ have more stage presence and a better vocalist/frontman? Yes. You hear similar arguments about U2, who aren’t exactly the world’s best musicians, but when all 4 of ‘em get on stage, they cook. Cream and LZ both rock. End of story. As much admiration as I have for him, Jack Bruce sounds like he’s a jealous bitch. It takes a lot more to keep a good thing together than to flash in the pan and then flame out.”

^ that guys got it all right…both of them are amazing bands, each in their own sense…and to all those who say that clapton is an “overrated” guitarist….i suggest that you go listen to Jams I-V from the layla sessions….that should change your tune

Jack is an unparalleled bassist who has done more for music than John Paul Jones ever has. The same goes for Clapton.

While there might be a single lonely soul out there who feels compelled to compare Page to Clapton, the comparison is blatantly in Bruce’s favor when compared to Jones.

Don’t believe me? Listen to the song Apostrophe’ by Frank Zappa and Jack Bruce.

Jack Bruce and Cream shit on Led Zepplin. End of Story.

“Stairway and Kashmir alone blow Cream out of the water.” -Gooch

I’m a big fan of both Cream and Led Zeppelin, but I disagree with what you said there.

Kashmir has and always will suck, and Stairway to Heaven is so overrated.The Rain Song is so much better than Stairway…

bruce didn’t play bass on “apostrophe”

Bruce is credited with bass guitar on the album cover and in most sources. However, in his interview for Polish rock magazine “Tylko Rock” he told journalist Weiss Wiesław that he had not played any bass guitar parts on Apostrophe (’) (despite them sounding at times very much like the bass lines he played in Cream), only the cello parts: (Tylko Rock, Oct. 1992, pp. 17)

Bruce not only played on Apostrophie, he over played on the first track. Zappa himself commented that it was intended to be a Jam but Bruce took over and over-played the bass role in a solo fashion.

Jack Bruce is all mouth and fuck all else. Cream were a prime example of how to play one blues riff in a hundred ways. Zeppelin virtually reshaped the way rock bands played. Nuff said.

cream & led zep are different veins with pretty much the same blood flowing thru them. if cream stayed together longer they no doubt would have had more to contribute. with that said jack bruce, as evidenced by his solo career, is exceptionly great. with pete brown at his side, they have created some of the best music ever. i do think he was having some fun at led zep’s expense

“did you watch clapton in the cream reunion two years back?” as a matter of fact I did -and I have seen both Page and Clapton live -Page I had the privilege of seeing on the first and second Zeppelin tours. Page live blows Clapton away. Page at 02 is on another level than Clapton at Albert Hall- And you are right, he is also a better composer. I like the Live At Alber Hall stuff -I am listening to it this very evening….Clapton sounds slick, and one dimensional -like he did when I caught him two summers ago at Crossroads here in Chicago 0when, Stevie Winwood out-soloed him on all the Blind Faith stuff they did…what is really exciting about the Cream reunion stuff is, Ginger Bakers marvelous playing-

“To think the same guy who played in Cream and recorded Layla has been perpetuating the same mediocre middle class, middle age white suburban dad blues for years. I’m sorry, I do love Cream but all the footage I’ve seen as of late leaves me a bit cold. Clapton’s tone is just plain weak. Cream sound was based on Marshall amps and lots of them. Then again, I’ve seen Eric play through Marshalls and make them sound weak too. Clapton is more “polished” than Page IMHO but being “unpolished” isn’t a bad thing either”

This is a spot on assessment of where Clapton is at today: polished, the sound is weak -playing the same noodling blues lines with not near enough variation -over and over…he is so lazy and restrained/refined, its not only frustrating to listen to him but almost obnoxious -the man refuses to play with any kind of real passion -or maybe he just isnt capable-..its no accident that when Les Paul is discussing guitar players he enjoys having drop by the club he plays and jam with him -he speaks of Page and Beck -not Eric Clapton -here in Chicago…ever heard of Ronnie Brooks -Buddy Guy -they both smoke Eric Clapton right off the stage……Page -I think he could play easily with either one of them. Polish is not all that technique is- Page uses way more interesting scales in his work, the solos are far mor varied 0the time sinatures way more complex…..I like Cream -Zeppelin is a different -and far more reaching kind of animal-

Look we can end this simply: Cream did 6 reunion concerts -three in London and three in NYC…..Led Zeppelin did one……..now who has gotten the acclaim, the rave reviews -from critics and musicians alike? Lets face it, the reviews for the Cream reunions shows has been at best, mixed……Led Zeppelin? Only, rave reviews-

and though Zeppelin has yet to put out a DVD of the 02 outing -from all reports and even as evidenced from the poor sound quality available on youtube, its easy to see how much better Zeppelin played -

Eric in his Hush Puppies playing like a detached millionaire……compared to Mr Jimmy Page -absolutely undiminished and, on fire with to quote Fricke, all of his “guitar army wow” intact.

JIMI HENDRIX , CREAM , AND LED ZEPPELIN LAID THE FOUNDATION OF HARD ROCK !

CREAM AND LED ZEPPELIN ARE BOTH AMAZING !

CREAM TRUMPS ZEPPELIN.

ZEP SUCKS, PAGE SUCKS. END OF STORY.

Can anyone join this argument, or do you have to have some kind of idiot degree?
As for EC vs Page… ya gotta love ‘em both! The ARE rock and roll, and they helped substantially make rock what it is. BUT as for these arguments about proficiency… whether playing, writing, performing, audio engineering or otherwise, Page has Clapton beat hands down. All you doubters and naysayers need to REALLY listen to Ten Years Gone, and while you’re listening, look at the sheet music, if you can read it. I suspect most of you can’t. YES that is a dig at all you non-musicians who feel compelled to voice your opinion about subjects you have absolutely no expertise in. I suspect that most of the MUSICIANS in the audience will agree with me, on all counts. I could be wrong, of course. But it almost never happens.

Merry Christmas to all, and Jack Bruce can bend over backwards and kiss his own ass.

“and while you’re listening, look at the sheet music, if you can read it. I suspect most of you can’t. ”

EXACTLY -this is a very good post Mr. Ghost of R&R Past…. really of the geetar players coming out of England in the 60’s -its Page and Beck who dominate…..Page has gone on record talking about his friend Jeff Beck as being the best player -and, you are right one look a piece of sheet music and a good, serious well informed listen with some modicum of expertise is really all it takes to know what is what.

Also Page and Beck do come out of more of a rockabilly/Les Paul sort of thing -and they have grown -especially beck in the last two decades -where Clapton is a showman, a fairly basic blues player who really never grew very much as a player -this is really a silly discussion: listen to say Guitar Shop -and then try and imagine Eric Clapton being able to play at the level Beck seem quite comfortable with (BADASS!) -it just ain’t gonna happen, Clapton isn’t even close! -not in this lifetime-

It is true that EC did some nice guitar stuff in the ’60’s. He had a few catchy tunes over the next few decades. But, really, he is no great guitar player! Good, but not great. He had good friends. Good thing he could sing otherwise he would have faded into obscurity by the mid ’70’s. JP. A true legend. He took rock music by the balls and became probably the most influental electric rock guitarist since Jimi Hendrix. But, when it comes to who is better than who….all you people do yourself a favour and type in Tommy Emmanuel on youtube. As Steve Vai said, “the first time I saw Tommy Emmanuel I was stunned into silence”. You could put Jimmy, Jimi, Eric, Rory, Jeff and many more into a big melting pot and whatever awesome guitarist you got out of that…Tommy Emmanuel would shit on them from a great height! If you don’t believe me…follow above instrucions!

Sorry…by the way…..he is also awesome on the electric guitar!

Tommy Emmanuel is a good acoustic player but c’mon this guy is NO Jeff Beck -right or left hand -you had better get yourself up to speed on this -go check out Jeff on youtube -different level of playing/innovation, quickness/scales work, right hand technique….Steve Vai….I dont hear many serious players quoting him as the gold standard for electric geetar -and I do know, when Jeff Beck played Chicago Theater here last year -if you had dropped a bomb on the place -there wouldn’t have been any good players left in town, as they were all sitting there in hushed awe at this player -who especially after working with Jan Hammer has grown and developed exponentially -really winning and, earning the right to be called Jimi Hendrix’s true heir-

There are very few practioners of the relatively young instrument -the electric guitar who can really be on the stage right now and hold their own with Beck -perhaps Marc Ribot and his 75 dollar whatever it is guitar, maybe Page -some of the Nashville guys -Brad Paisley is an awfully good player on telecaster, Buddy Guy -Ronnie Brooks….as far as acoustic players – you better go listen to Robbie Fulks -I’m afraid he leaves your guy Emmanuel in the dust with his flat pickin-

I’m a fan of Zep and Cream, as well as a great deal of Bruce’s solo work. Bruce is right in that Cream broke the ground for a lot of acts, Zep and The Jeff Beck Group, etc. Who else in 1966 was doing the sort of stuff Cream was? How many other’s then were using a double bass drum kit, as Ginger Baker did?

To answer FANS OF BOTH
Keith Moon was using a double pedal before Ginger Baker
and The Who’s My Generation (which also became before Cream) was pretty out there and in your face
maybe in a different way, perhaps don’t know.

THE GHOST OF R&B past!
How can you possibly say that Jimmy Page is better than Clapton!
I really don’t understand how people can consider Page a great guitarist…just because he plays fast probably, but I mean c’mon …that solo from Heartbreaker just hurts to hear…that sloppy work he does on guitar…Does everyone just ignore it?
Anyways I haven’t heard to much from Jeff Beck but when talking to guitarist who have actually been playing guitar for a long time they claim that the obvious guitarist supreme over CLAPTON and PAGE is JEff Beck.
Also …who care if TEN years after is a hard song…
does that make Death Metal bands better just because they have harder songs to play?
Music is not about that.

Regrettably for led zep fans ,jack bruce is right,but he was being kind.I must be the bad cop &tell you the new yardbirds/aka led zepplin were just some left over(studio musicians) that atlantic had in the wings when cream imploded.Follow the money morons…p.s to the douche that posted Kashmir blew loads on JBs’ work , when you learn a little more about music theory give As You SAID a listen or Like a Plate,& Time Slip .

Jimmy Page is sooooooooo much better than yuppie-slick blues noodler Clapton -late Zeppelin has chord/time signature changes Clapton would simply be unable to pull off- Clapton is slick, with a dead, small sound and a decent tremelo -Page, is a beast. Listen to the Cream reunion -slickly packaged -and then go listen to Page at O2 on you tube -guess there is a good reason the one Zeppelin concert garnered all the raves while 6 Cream concerts were met with polite indifference. I like both bands -but clearly Zeppelin played far more varied complicated arrangements- than did Cream and obviously Page is so much more than simply a good blues player like Clapton.

First of all: I’m a CREAM-fan. I like CREAM much more then LZ, but I wouldn’t be proud of that CREAM reunion concerts, if I were Jack. Let’s face it: he and Ginger were playing badly, only Eric was quite right.
And who’s better who? Today, who cares? It’s like who looks better TODAY Lollobrigida or Loren? If the question is :Who was looking better?
Here are some questions:
Which guitarist is mentioned on firewalls as “God”?
Who is/was a legend even among other drummers?
Whose bass play is more famous?
Which band was admired by Leonard Bernstein?
Whose voice is/was better?
I think the score is 4-1 to CREAM…

Are any of you people rock musicians? I don’t mean “Jimmy Buffet” style rock, I mean ROCK Music! To compare Cream to Zepplin is absolutely stupid! Cream was great at what they did, so was Zepplin. Both bands influenced and shaped rock music and rock musicians. But the band and music that influenced rock in a much larger way is Zepplin. If you listen to progressive rock, classic, grunge, alternative or modern, you will hear the Zepplin influence. You will be hard pressed to find the Cream sound or influence, as it is not nearly as distinct. Anyone who can not see or appreciate the creative and technical range of Jimmy Page has either not listened well or is musically challenged.

By the way, Jack Bruce is full of shit. Perhaps that’s why Ginger Baker has been quoted as saying he will not step foot on stage with Bruce again, because of his antics during the Cream reunion.

Doug, the only thing wrong with your post is, – its ‘Zeppelin’ otherwise, dead, on. Page is so brilliant, does so many more things than Clapton, the band, the arrangements, THE RANGE! was so much more complex, so much greater than Cream (whom I also very much like)…..you really can’t compare the two, its simply not fair to do so. Led Zeppelin is quite simply the Beethoven of rock: its finest band -featuring a brilliant, far more nuanced and complex drummer (I say this as a huge Ginger Baker fan-but still, Bonham….is undeniable), a great singer, a brilliant arranger/multi instrumentalist and, one of the top two or three greatest electric geetar players to ever pick up the instrument.

Thanks Gouge, Unfortunately I didn’t catch my lame spelling error until I submitted my comment!

I agree with you 100%, Baker was a huge influence (I say this as a drummer of 30+ yrs) but John Bonham went deeper with many levels and subtleties not often appreciated, until someone tries to duplicate him and then realizes it’s not as easy as it sounds.

It’s astonishing how overrated Jimmy Page is. Decent song writer (although I never cared much for his compositions). Nothing special on lead. Except for Stairway to Heaven, his solos lacked emotion. I always thought the smartest thing he ever did was not ruin Immigrant Song by trying to solo on it.

Well Doug, I was driving around Chicago a few years ago with my friend Nick Tremulis listening to How The West Was Won and we were just laughing about how here we were still listening to the music of our youth -and how damned great it sounded -how brilliant Led Zeppelin was live -those three cds should be required listening for anybody who did not see the band , who is interested in rock music-one of the really mind boggling things about it is the interplay between Bonham and Page- explosive!

“It’s astonishing how overrated Jimmy Page is. Decent song writer (although I never cared much for his compositions). Nothing special on lead. Except for Stairway to Heaven, his solos lacked emotion.”

Now what’s the name of your Led Zeppelin cover band Andrew? Of course I am sure you consider yourself far more of an authority than for instance, all the countless bands/producers who used Page in the mid 60’s -when he was THE top session guitarist in London, and I am sure you are more of an authority than the great Jeff Beck who got him to join The Yarbirds -or, Les Paul who singles Page out as a talented player -who he personally likes to jam with…but thanks for enlightening us as to Pages real stature……

at first i have to apologise if my english is not perfect…

clapton und page (and many more,…) are good and excellent players. BUT: clapton LIVE is just great!

if you are looking for pure rock you will prefer page. but his solos have no heart. he puts riff after riff and lick after lick and his solo has no “sense” no highlight and so on…

clapton is unique and signature. his solos have structure and “make sense”. page, beck,… do not play solos. they put noise after noise- this is no improvisation!!! it is far more difficult to play a solo exactly like clapton than a page solo. there´s one thing you cannot learn: feeling

sometimes it´s better to play less notes but with expression! clapton makes the guitar his voice.

just one example:
wich other guitar player can play this solo?: crossroads I “i shot the sheriff”

let me say to crossroads II: if you really “know” clapton you see that he restrains himself to let the other guitarists shine!! if he wants (!) he knocks out every guitarist- live on stage.

clapton is a very difficult musician to discribe. he has his “pop moments” and his “music moments”. don´t be a fool and think he has lost fire… the point is that he doesn´t always shows it!

there are lots of interesting musicians out there. but be serious clapton IS (still!) one of the most exciting. and he is NOT overrated.

if you do not only focus on hard-rock-stuff as many of you dudes here

page, beck,… do not play solos. they put noise after noise- this is a truly assinine statement

clapton is unique and signature. his solos have structure and “make sense”. have you ever actually listened to Beck play? how he employs melodic structures, chord/modal progressions so far more evolved than anything Clapton is even capable of attempting? -actually the same with Page -listened to late Led Zeppelin lately?-though he is not as complex as Beck-

maybe they do make sense maxwinner -perhaps its all just sailing right over your head.

I was at the Crossroads festival -even Stevie Winwood sounded better than Clapton, with his tired, overly slick, at this point cliched blues riffs -Beck? A whole other level and everyone knew it.

i spoke from the crossroads I not II!!

let me tell you: i do not say page, beck,… are worse players. but they are different. i spoke with a lot of other guitarists and its a matter of taste. have you ever tried to play a calpton solo note after note (including his bendings, finger vibratos,…)

at this point no one is “better”. they are different. its funny how poloarizing clapton is. and i think it´s good!

if you speak about technics beck is better than clapton (also than page) but if you speak about feeling and expressing his feelings with an instrument i prefer clapton. this may sound funny… but think about it!

can we agree on that:

all british guitar gods (including hendrix) have their rights!

clapton is as unique as beck/ page is.

lets talk about santana if you are searching for overrated guitarists. =)

Eric Clapton polarizing? huh?……even Eric as acknowledged that he got to a certain point as a guitarist and then just never grew beyond that-

Discussing and quantifying excellence in any art form as ‘a matter of taste’ relegates technique as an artist to mere craftmanship: when I say Jeff Beck is a superior guitarist, I mean his language is vastly more developed, nuanced and subtle -that he is capable of expressing more because he is a BETTER MUSICIAN -HE HAS MORE CHOPS -HE KNOWS AND USES FAR MORE COMPLEX SCALES/ MODAL SYSTEMS- HIS USE OF SUBTLE COLORATION THROUGH COMPLEX CHORDS?EXOTIC MODES -is beyond anything Eric even attempts -his right hand is an instrument unto itself -where Clapton is back where he’s always been with a flatpick -doing the same old blues riffs -that have become more and more familiarand even tedious.

Clapton is a showman -Jeff Beck, is a guitar virtuoso -if there is any controversy its that people like you maxwimmer keep confusing one with the other-

Beck is-far more related to Jimmy Page -in that the both come out of rockabilly -Les Paul more that BB King and the blues ala Clapton…….also, both Beck and in a cruder sense Page flirt with jazz chords/modal systems -and phrasing -something Clapton gives no indication of being capable of pulling off-

The songs you mention I Shot The Sheriff? -childs play compared to just about any song on any of Becks records -and most of Pages outings as well-

As for Claptons ‘restraint’ -I watched first hand at Crossroads 2 as the guy refused to step up and take and even attempt an exciting solo…..I’ve been listening to all three of these guys play most of my life -Page remains an enigma and somewhat of a musical recluse, Beck has grown spectacularly (-especially after his collarboration with Hans Zimmer-) and Clapton sadly enough, has simply ossified. Since Derek and the Dominoes the fact is, Clapton has not made one good -forget great, guitar record, while Jeff Beck, even in the midst of failed experimentation, has made nothing but-

this discussion makes no sense if yout do not accept other opinions. its sad that my english is not better (i´m from austria). maybe you don´t understand what i mean. i am a long-term musician myself!

i never said that eric is a better (technics) guitarist! but i do say that he is a better blues, bluesrock guitarist. let me explain: you maybe prefer hard-rock, jazz-rock, fusion,… or whatever (i don´t know). thats okay! but i prefer blues and rock and roll and musicians with expresions (clapton, king, buddy guy,…) (in this genres)! maybe clapton has not grown as a guitar-player (technics). but he certainly has grown as a musician. how can you say beck is a better musician? he is different. does he sing and play? that´s a huge difference!

and your statement on “i shot the sheriff” (version crossrouds I) is very non-professional. a child?
ANY guitarist will tell you (believe me) that this solo is tremendous. i cannot come close to this!

maybe you are an ignorant person but why can´t you admit clapton as an extraordinary player??

i like beck and his playing is mind-blowing. but it doesn´t touch me. clapton (his phrasing, sound (!), structure of soloing, passion) gives me goosebumps.

even if it´s simple (in your opinion). it is NOT simple to play and sound like this!

beck= technics and “new sounds”;

clapton= expression, passion and sound

matter of taste what you prefer!

Max are you joking? Claptons playing has barely had a pulse IN YEARS! He sounds out of ideas and out of passion…..listen to Buddy Guy tear it on Champagne and Reefer with the Stones…then try imagine country gentleman Eric in his hush puppy loafers even coming close with his tasteful, domesticated, slick and at this point ordinary playing.

On to Beck vs Clapton -Max -my point is sailing right over your Eric smitten head -here, go read what Leo Tolstoy had to say about technique and its relationship to expression. Beck as an artist of the first rank has greater technique and range -precisely because he has more to express, to emote, more to say -his passion, sensuality and sensibility -in his playing, his vision, is greater, requiring greater musicianship to flesh it out and realize it with clarity -even as I have noted -when considered in the context of the flawed vehicles and uneven experimentation he has chosen as the context for his playing- Beck is a far better musician and as a geetar player -he does wipe the stage with your idol- but so does Page….I like Clapton -in the late 60’s for a moment, he was on fire -unfortunately, he seems too nice, too much of a gentleman -with a lack of fire and passion, a killer instinct; -all very unfortunate and, apparent in his playing

You have to learn that you have to accept other opinions. I am a long-term-musician myself and I need no lessons from your side. I know that “your” guys are great players (Beck, maybe: Satriani, Malmsteen, Vai,… I don´t know…) but I certainly prefer other players (which are also very good players). Guy is different. There´ s no one like him. Sometimes he has too much emotion in his playing and singing- he often overstates. But he is great! Please stop making childish comments on Clapton. It´ s a fact that Clapton plays far more concerts than Beck (I speak about huge venues). He does this for business- making money. He plays songs a huge audience wants him to play- his hits. Sometimes I also miss the “fire” in these concerts- depends on his mood probably. But listen to the “From The Cradle”- tour, Cream Reunion (Albert Hall), Madison Square Garden with Winwood,…(Clapton here is not so “reserved” compared to “Crossroads II”). That’s the Clapton I wanna hear!! Maybe he is not one of the “best” (whatever that means). BUT: He is one of the most unique and has a style and tone nobody can copy. If you listen to some licks, riffs,… played by Beck and let Malmsteen,… play it- you will not hear any difference. If you let Clapton play one lick or even one note, I bet you hear that this is him. This may be irrelevant for you- but not for me! So that’s what I´ m trying to tell you. That’s important for me and that’s the great thing about Clapton. He sometimes lays back too much and does things the audience wants to hear. But he still can do it- if he wants. You know! He just shows it less often!

So please accept my opinion and the opinion of many others. As a musician I also know what I´ m talking about! Stop comparing things which are not comparable (Beck – Clapton) because they have other intensions goals for making “their” music. Do you compare Ray Charles with Pavarotti? That’s a funny comparison but it shows what I´ m trying to say. At a certain point there is no good or bad. You can say: “I don´ t like it”. That’s alright with me. But it´ s not serious to rate it…

So keep on rocking Eric =)

Dear Max, Ericophile extraordinaire, the fact that you lump Malmsteen, Satriani, Vai in with Beck or Page reveals a fundamental error in your thinking -though nowhere near as egregious as your egalitarian, one mans meat is another man poison, version of a philosophical model….everything isnt everything else Max! It doesnt all devolve into beige mush -there are greater and lesser things in life! Jeff Beck is a vastly superior guitarist in comparison with your idol Eric Clapton -Jeff’s pal Jimmy Page is also superior. Its okay Max, go see Eric play Tears In Heaven again, and again -knock yourself out! No one’s stopping -least of all me.

I dit not lump Page, Malmsteen, Satriani,…

I am no Clapton fanatic. I do respect him and his music and I will always rate him as one of the most passionate musicians and I love his feeling when he plays the guitar. No matter what you think. I also respect Beck and rate him as one of the “best” guitarists. But I prefer Clapton!

By the way: Clapton doesn’t play Tears In Heaven,… for years…

Well Maxi, since you are obviously a card carrying member of the ‘Clapton Is God’ contingent, let Eric’s own words leave you humbled and, dumbstruck: Jeff Beck – the man Eric Clapton calls “the best guitarist around”…. the only thing missing here is having it chisled onto a stone tablet for you to trudge down off the mountain with……..

Led Zepplin – way better rock stars. Not to mention thieves. Listen to the Small Faces original Dazed an Confused for chrissake. Jimmy Page’s production techniques are the ONLY thing that made Zepplin I and II special and its all forumula after that. Zepplin “IV” is total crap that set music back ten years.

Cream – FAR FAR FAR more innovative band, musically speaking. With the partial exception of Hendrix NOBODY in 1966 was doing what they were doing. Cream was basically finished before Zepplin even got started, geniuses.

And anyone who thinks REAL progressive rock (Crimson, Gong, Soft Machine) owes a turd to Led Zepplin is a total idiot.

gouge:

damn! thats YOUR opinion!!

i know what clapton said. are you unable to read my postings?! have your also heard what other important guitarists (not you) say about clapton?? including beck, bb king, duane allman, srv, hendrix, sonny landreth, mclaughlin,…

exression, passion and the ability to do that outstandingly clean- that´s his biggest skill!

shut up and let other people have other opinions- like i do!

and besides: musically the cream reunion was WAY BETTER than the led reunion (which was no “real”reunion- by the way)!!

Maxed out, why are you posting as anonymous?

Here you are, back with more of your palm tree version of an egalitarian’s philosophical stance-that being, one mans meat is another man’s poison, everything is subjective and in the end, turns to beige mush, where nothing has meaning…..

I’m not buying sir! I believe there are greater and lesser things in this life -particularly as far as my focus when it comes to aesthetics -musical or, otherwise. I believe in otherwords that there are such things as masterpieces, that there is reason and understanding, cognitive along with imaginative thought to be employed in discerning what is what -that good art or artists, are never measured by criteria based upon ‘taste’-

Jeff Beck is, a better guitarist than Clapton. He has more chops -his musicianship in terms of his use of musical language is far more complex, skilled and , evolved. These things, are facts -not, mere matters of taste-

and btw -Led Zeppelin 02 COMPLETELY ECLIPSED the very tepid and tepidly received and reviewed Cream concerts in London and later on in NYC -both in terms of how O2 was recived and, HOW IT SOUNDED! With the exception of Ginger Baker, Cream played like a bunch of well-heeled old rich guys -where Page and company WERE ON FIRE- there was an excitement in the music community about the 02 show -completely lacking from the stilted reunion Cream offered up-

- since this whole thread is predicated on Jack Bruce’s snarky, envious comments, -and has now devolved into this discussion between Maximinion and myself as to the respective merits of Clapton (good) vs Beck (far better) -perhaps now is the time to bring up their bass players!

Is there even the shadow of a doubt that little 22 year old Taj Wilkenfeld currently touring with Jeff Beck could wipe the stage clean with Jack Bruce -her on an off night -him at his best? NOT EVEN, CLOSE-!

@gouge: if there is any fanatic – its you! one comment would also be enough.. ok i´m fine with YOUR opinion. but if you start comparing tal with jack you become a little… ok every real musician knows what i should say now…

and please stop making “funny” comments about my name. ok? thanks!

listen: i never rated back as a worse guitarist. ok!
beck is great, but i prefer clapton- as i stated on and on…
once again: no real musican would rate these guitarists. go and read interviews…(if you are not in the position to speak with them). they respect each others and they know that it´s only a matter of taste and a matter of what the artist wants to express with it´s music! beck is no blues mucician- clapton is a blues musician. ok?! blues= feeling
music for me is about feeling, no scales and notes. clapton= feeling

and he IS a great guitarist too!

i just watched some viedos on you… (you know what i mean). compare clapton and page. jack IS right thats all i can say- as a musician!

clapton gives me goosebumps, page is only nice to hear!

maxi, first, though I have an amount of musical training and have been deeply involved in the music scene here in Chicago, and with rock music -r&b/blues most of my life, I am not a practicing musician -I am a visual artist of some infamy and notoriety-who has lived long enough to be able to say I saw Page and company while sitting on the floor of the Fillmore West as a 15 year old kid on Zeppelins first and at Winterland, second tour -I dont need anyone to tell me how Jimmy Page plays the electric guitar-

Taj Wilkenfeld: there is a reason she is touring with Beck -recording with the likes of Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter to name a few -at 22 years old she, is brilliant. Jack Bruce was NEVER as good as she is right now -speaking of Jack that pompous old fool -the Cream reunion cd……..is there even just ONE song on the whole set where he doesn’t introduce the band? Completely obnoxious.

And I don´t need no lessons from your side. I AM a long-time musician myself and
of course Tal is very good. But also the facts that she´s a woman and she´s very young make it interesting… Why don´t you stop making this silly comments? I really do not think that it´s lack of knowledge from your side. How can YOU say one of them is better (Jack – Tal, Eric – Jimmy)?! You must be a real “god”

Every one of them is a remarkable artist (as BB King said about Clapton Crossroads II – by the way). Matter of taste who you prefer!

By the way: Jack does introduce the band. Look at the DVD…

So inform yourself before posting false information.

Only a fool can claim Clapton is an overrated artist!! He completely deserves his status. And so do many others…

Make music!! It´s always easy to criticize…

And I don´t need no lessons from your side. I AM a long-time musician myself and
of course Tal is very good. But also the facts that she´s a woman and she´s very young make it interesting… Why don´t you stop making this silly comments? I really do not think that it´s lack of knowledge from your side. How can YOU say one of them is better (Jack – Tal, Eric – Jimmy)?! You must be a real “god”

Every one of them is a remarkable artist (as BB King said about Clapton Crossroads II – by the way). Matter of taste who you prefer!

By the way: Jack does introduce the band. Look at the DVD…

So inform yourself before posting false information.

Only a fool can claim Clapton is an overrated artist!! He completely deserves his status. And so do many others…

Make music!! It´s always easy to criticize…

And I don´t need no lessons from your side. I AM a long-time musician myself and
of course Tal is very good. But also the facts that she´s a woman and she´s very young make it interesting… Why don´t you stop making this silly comments? I really do not think that it´s lack of knowledge from your side. How can YOU say one of them is better (Jack – Tal, Eric – Jimmy)?! You must be a real “god”

Every one of them is a remarkable artist (as BB King said about Clapton Crossroads II – by the way). Matter of taste who you prefer!

By the way: Jack does introduce the band. Look at the DVD…

So inform yourself before posting false information.

Only a fool can claim Clapton is an overrated artist!! He completely deserves his status. And so do many others…

Make music!! It´s always easy to criticize…

Maxipad, I hav the double cd of the three evenings at Albert Hall -Cream reunion -after EACH and EVERY song, Jack Bruce introduces the band -its utterly annoying.

You say you are a long time musician: and so, what have you done? You’ve been at it a long time, are you any good? As for myself, I have work hanging in the 2oth century collection at the Metropolitan -I am successful in my field -and, I am around many of the top players here in Chicago -I have had people the likes of Billy Corgan, Wilco people perform right here -along with many others- I know many of the very best geetar players here in Chicago -I don’t know one of them who thinks Clapton lights it up like Page does -or would even for a moment be silly enough to suggest his guitar work is comparable to the great Jeff Beck- they are not only better musicians, but simply smarter than that-
You’ve clearly got this jones for Eric -perhaps you should just let yourself go, and go for it maxi! write the poor fellow some weird, obsessed fan love letter…..

btw -when I say right here -I’m referring to my studio -and then there is your comments about Taj being a woman……what, a troglodyte you are max! Why don’t you come up with names of some recordings you have played on? Lets have some verification of your claims to being a musician – I want to see some proof!

hey gouge: if you are unable to discuss without making your “jokes” about me or my name please carry on- but without me…

i don´t have to proof you anything! ok?

you are one of the most ignorant persons i´ve ever “discussed” with. you obviously have NO idea about making music. otherwise you would agree on the difference between the genres,…

that´s very sad man…

so please do no longer stress your knowledge. thats simply beyond belief…

btw: your comment on the cream reunion dvd/ cd is WRONG!!thats simply not true. go and listen…

maximus claptrap, the American version of the Cream set is, as I have stated- beyond that, where is the proof I requested? If you are such a professional musician -name a few recordings- this, is a simple, lets have some verification. Put your money where your mouth is.

Eric Crapton is THE MOST OVERATED guitarist of all time. Jimmy Page and Led Zepplin were rock royalty. I can’t belive the crap this bass player is saying about Crapton being a better guitarist. It’s just bullshit pure and simple. And another thing, Led Zep doing ONE show is BIGGER news than Cream doing how ever many he reckons. No one cares less about Cream. No real guitarist cares less about Crapton. He’s nothing but an overated bore. Furthermore the Cream shows had douchely playing Fenders into Fender amps. That’s NOT how Cream sounded for a start. Why doesn’t he play Gibson’s, because he is literally a sell out Fender shill since in about 1970 he recieved a large sum of money (which he spent on booze and heroin) to play Fenders exclusively. Zeppelin are a great band, far more original and interesting than Cream ever were. Jack Bruce just sounds fucken retarded, petty and totally full of shit over this.

Chris Gordon, finally a voice of reason. An island of serenity in a sea of madness! Page/Led Zeppelin were so much more evolved AND JUST BETTER! than the very basic blues riffs of Cream ( even when it comes to hooks Page vs Clapton! WHAT A LAUGH! PAGE EATS HIM UP!) -lets face it by the time of their last really good song -White Room, a variation on Tales of Brave Ulysses Cream was already circling its wagons…..

AMeanwhile, here I’ve been, stuck with this Clapton groupie max -who claims to be a musician and yet refuses to fork up any kind of credentials….

Listen to “I’m so Glad” from Goodbye Cream. Obviously, Cream was the greatest improvisational band ever. Listen to the INTERPLAY between these three virtuosos. Led Zeppelin could never come close. And I love Zeppelin too … but it’s quite obvious that they are Overrated by the general public while Cream is vastly underrated. Of course these are my opinions but I believe most technical musicians will agree that Clapton is better than Page, Baker (especially considering his Jazz and multi-genre style) is better than Bohnam, and Jack Bruce is better (and more influential historically) than John Paul Jones. The only other Rock bassist that was more influential is Paul McCartney because of his innovation and revolutionary playing.

Sorry Charlie, go listen to HOW THE WEST WAS WON -listen to Bonham make mincemeat out of Baker -Bonham: an infinitely more complex influential drummer…..listen to the way Page and Bonham and Jones push each other a rhythmn section Clapton could never play in- as Page does solo after solo, a guitar clinic -playing at a level Clapton NEVER approaches…….as for Bruce -John Paul Jones was not only a bassist but an organ player and a GREAT arranger- I know lots of fine players -some of the best in the business -Clapton is not revered nor as highly thought of as Jimmy Page the same with Cream vs Led Zeppelin -remember even the Yarbirds wanted to dump and replace Clapton with, PAGE -in fact one guitarist in perhaps the most famous rock band always jokes about Clapton consistently missing the point, the beat with his dull, polished playing dead in the water for years! -Led Zeppelin is rock royalty -Jimmy Page smokes Eric Clapton off the stage…..Clapton is hugely overrated -you mention him at his peak -even then the chordal structures those guys are using, the rhythmns, don’t come close to the playing on HOW THE WEST WAS WON -anyone with half a brain, or half an ear can discern that-

As far as technical musicians……when Les Paul talks about talented players he likes to jam with -its Page and Beck who get mentioned -no Eric -when Jerry Lee Lewis wants a geetar player -its Page not Eric who gets the call -even here in Chicago -when a great blues guitarist like Ronnie Brooks is asked what he thinks of Eric Clapton -he has to work at being polite -I believe the kindest adjective her could muster was ‘polished’……back to Cream -who I do very much like -but the improvisation: after a few bars, can you honestly ever tell one from another or, are they all the same thing? – lots of youthful hubris -not much good technical playing, or chordal variations or modal variation, or rhythmic change -just the same ferocious mush -I believe this was in fact, the dead end that, ended the band-

Michelangelo noted -you paint with your brains, not your hands -Page has alway been a way headier, more intelligent player than Eric Clapton -on top of that, Zeppelin recapitulates the soul of the black origins of rock music in a way that staid ole’ Eric and uptight, puffed-up Jack, were offended by – and let it be known they were- like a couple of old hens, clucking their disapproval-

Gouge,

Page vs. Clapton is a matter of taste. People like you enjoy sloppy noodlers (what is UP with that main solo in Heartbraker, that crap is just embarrassing to listen to).

Bonham, on the other hand is not in the same technical league as Ginger Baker. People who think this, simply haven’t heard enough of Ginger Baker’s 50 years of work.

Listen to Steppin Out from the 1966 Cream BBC sessions on Youtb. There is just way more going on than you ever get out of John Bonham. Bonham’s timing is great but he just never could do that. Baker at his best is the energy of Moon and the crispness of Pierre Moerlen or Bill Bruford. (Go look them up.)

Listen to the live versions of Toad then any thing you want to from Bohnam. There is just less going on with Bonham. OK, OK, its groovy AND loud, i get it.

Led Zeppelin wrote a lot of catchy Rock and Roll Jingles. They were almost as good at that as Black Sabbath. A least with Sabbath fans you don’t hear them going over the deep end about how they’re the best musicians in history…

To Mike,

You are 100% correct about this:

“Lets cut to the chase. There are two reasons (many) people think John Bonham is the best drummer ever. #1 He played in the most commercial Hard Rock band ever. #2 He’s dead, and in Rock that always magnifies your reputation.
”

Totally agree on both points.

To gouge – who’s next post will seemingly be his 9999th in defense of Zeppelin:

What I’m saying is Clapton DURING CREAM was unmatched. I’m not even referring to Blind Faith, or Derek and the Dominoes, and certainly not anything after 1974 – I am specifically referring to the GIBSON weilding Clapton that changed Rock guitar playing especially ‘Live’ between 1966 and 1968.

I’m sure most of the people commenting here do not have access to or care to listen to all the Cream bootlegs – but here is where their interplay and their feeding off and driving each other through 15 minute improvisational jams put them above all others of their kind. I am listening to N.S.U. from the Detroit Grand Ballroom October 15, 1967 as I write this and they are amazing in their creativity and risk-taking segues. Remember your Led Zep history? In 1967 and 1968 Page studied Cream INTENSELY while envisioning what his new band could be like. He took a different commercially visible hard-Rock path … and I’ve heard all the Zeppelin live stuff and their interplay can never match Cream.

You mentioned JP Jones being a great keyboardist – as if Jack Bruce ISN’T also? Do you know antything about Jack’s solo career? Or that he was an accomplished Jazz bassist, keyboardist, and cellist before and AFTER Cream? AND Jack Bruce sang most of the vocals WHILE playing revolutionary bass guitar.

Ginger Baker is FAR more versatile with his top-flight Acid Rock, Jazz playing and African Rhythms (he calls himself a Jazz drummer) than the one-dimensional Rock-plodding Bonham. See if you can get your Led-Zeppelin-Tunnel-Vision glasses off for a few hours and go procure a 1991 album called “Sunrise on the Sufferbus” by Masters of Reality (Ginger drumming) in which he, even at the age of 62, drums as good as any classic rock album from the late 1960s.

we have been pared down, edited! Probably a good idea -Charlie I agree with you about Clapton….you must have been as indifferent as I was about the reunion gigs- for me the best part was Bakers drumming-

Ok,

I see we’ve been edited but that comment I made about music school for the deaf was… Oh, never mind.

Nice to see we’re all being civil. I just want to wish everyone good luck in their endeavors and goodbye, for now.

Mike -I very much like Ginger Bakers work -for the record: I am sure he is a great drummer-however, just as Baker pared down jazz drumming, Bonham -who was influenced by Ginger further minimalized this approach -and conflated with his r&b influences – makes for a more dynamic, complex approach to keeping time in a rock band -all art, every discipline works with an underlying principle, form follows function, Baker for all of his virtuosity -which can be a joy to listen to, is not as effectively explosive, nor as dynamic as Bonham is -just as Cream has nowhere near the dynamic range of Led Zeppelin……perhaps much of this has to do with John Paul Jones and Jimmy Page, their brilliant arangements -that far outstrip Cream -but beneath all of this, is a monster drummer who has massively influened subsequent generations of rock drummers-

To everyone who says and thinks that Led Zepp was better than Cream (especially to gouge): Isn’t that ’cause Led Zepp exits for 12y, mostly in the ’70s and Cream only between summer of ‘66 and fall of ‘68 ? There are much more people heard Led Zepp alive than Cream. Not to mention the records.

Reason#2
There are bands making feelings (The Beatles, AC/DC, U2, Sex Pistols etc.), and there are bands making/playing music. The first-kind of bands are always more popular, well-known, famous than the others. But if we’re listening to them musicially… For example getting JPJ plays’ down is much more easier then Jack Bruce’s. (At least, to me)

And finally, once again.
I am nobody, my opinion doesn’t count, but Leonard Bernstein’s IS matter! And he admired Cream (reportedly he liked Baker’s poly-rhythmic techniques and the contrapuntal ideas present in many of the group’s tunes).

No limpi, its not because they were around longer -its because when they were together, they played better! Because Bonham keeps a WAY BETTER GROVE -a grove that changed rock music forever, that he is compositionally a superior drummer when compared to the great technician/cacaphony that is Ginger Baker -that he (Bonham) plays to the song-that Page, is a far more exciting guitarist who found a way to reinvent and conflate/recapitulate r&b/blues/rock into some of the most exciting modern music yet to be played- that they had this singer from another planet -a male version of Janis Joplin…Cream just cannot measure up to this juggernaut- as good as they also, were-

So many people are here blinded by their zealotry…
Why should I struggle with them if they aren’t discussing, they’re just inconvincible?

Maybe others will read this. To them:

Out of 100 people, how many of them heared about Led Zepp? 60? 70?
But how many of them know the songs? 15? 20?
With Cream it’s like 10 heared about the band and 9 know their songs.
There are bands and musicians much more famous by their names, but their music (Hendrix, AC/DC, Joplin, Paganini, the Rolling Stones, Sex Pistols, J.S. Bach, ZZ Top, etc.). ‘Know their musics’ / ‘heared their names’ ratio is way less then 50%. And there are others (Cream, Weather Report, Anouk, ELP, the Ramones, Charlie Parker, etc.) with this ratio about 80-90%, at least. This doesn’t mean the first group is better then the second. If this would be true Spice Girls would be one of the best bands, ever.
But this doesn’t mean the opposite, either. I just wanted to clear: more fans are not equal better music. Many times this means just opposite.

We could discuss (but only if it IS a discussion!!!) why do I think Cream was better then Led Zepp.

I agree with you Limpi -as someone btw who is familiar not only with Paganini’s caprices for instance but also understands the difference between Anne Sophie Mutters first and second attempts at the Beethoven concerto -or her brilliance with the Berg- or Heifetz’s mastery of the partita in C#minor……

People may not have heard of Cream -though that would not be true of my generation (same with Weather Report or, Return To Forever -or Herbie Hancock at that same point in time- (Bobbie Hutcherson)-but they have surely heard of Eric Clapton -which actually serves to illustrate your point perfectly: though he has this huge reputation -based upon popularity, I don’t know of a single guitarist who thinks he is on Jeff Beck’s level (have you caught the video with him and Page at the R&R Hall of Fame show?) or having mentioned him,-Beck’s life long friend Jimmy Page either. Clapton has been mailing it in for years, and frankly has never really evolved past those few Cream albums- (all of which I have owned and listend to for decades)

By the time Cream did White Room, they had really already run out of hooks/ideas -as much as I like the song -it reeks of Tales of Brave Ulysses…..the songs were never that architecturally interesting or evolved, or even very thought out -listen to how much more complex in structure any Led Zeppelin song is to any Cream song -all of which could lead back into a discussion of Baker vs Bonham -for all of Ginger Bakers brilliant pyrotechnics, Bonham is COMPOSITIONALLY a far superior drummer -his grove is far more dynamic, he is MORE EFFECTIVE WITH LESS! Page -is just a more exciting, daring, risk-taking, far more complicated guitarist -who cares if he gets sloppy sometimes -so does Jascha Heifetz! For every hook Clapton ever came up with, all far more derivative than with Page, Page came up with ten- there are more good riffs in a single good Led Zeppelin song than in the whole of Cream’s repertory-

I like Cream -very much so…..but they really don’t hold up very well to close comparison with Led Zeppelin -the just aren’t comparable -I don’t care what Jack Bruce says -or how much he trashes them -its all sour grapes I’m afraid- by his own admission.

On another subject, RS needs to correct a major injustice: top 100 guitarists: Jeff Beck should sit atop that list along side Jimi Hendrix -the young genius, the old master- really, its time fo RS to celebrate this extraordinary guitarist with a cover story, and a redo of the top 100……how can they seious have Cobain, Jerry Garcia! Kirk Hammett or Clapton -or Vaughn- even, in front of Beck……its a travesty and, its dishonest.

That’s right, Clapton became popular in the 80s (or around), but many people (includes me) think that he was good only if he plays others songs (or with other words: he was good in bands, not alone). I’m not getting involved who’s better Clapton, Page or Beck -it’s matter of taste-, I, personally, prefer Clapton (strictly at his 20s!).

“…the songs were never that architecturally interesting or evolved, or even very thought out…” If you’ve seen Farewell, there’s an interview with Bruce, where he’s talking about Cream’s music (if you haven’t, find at YouTube). I don’t remember the words, but he said something like that the songs are only jumping off points to improvisation, their whole music is improvised (sorry if I misquote). Many of Hendrix’s songs (and also old blues songs) are made the same way: a riff, verses (sometimes only 2-3 sentences), then a solo, then the end. Are these songs architecturally interesting? No. Good? Mostly. That depends on solos(improvisations). And that’s why Cream was better than any other (rock)bands, to me (for me? I ought to learn english ).
There are three kind of music (I think). One you hate and don’t listen to it, one you like, and one you REALLY love. I bet there are bands (songs) you don’t listen to as “back-up music” (while you drive, talk, write, surf on net etc.), only if there is peace and quiet. These are the 3rd kind of music. Cream was/is that kind, that’s why Cream (and other bands) never going to be popular.

Do you want me to compare the bands members?

Cream did use their very simple riffs as a point of departure -unfortunately -their improvisations -probably due to the basic blues progressions they employed -begin to all sound alike-

Zeppelin: having seen Zeppelin perform live, I think the most imporant recordings -particularly for those who have not, is the three disc How The West Was Won -which aside from being a rock guitar clinic put on by Mr Page, clearly establishes them as far more exciting live than Cream- with way more range- with more complex improvisation -does it all work? No! But they attempt more, with way headier playing going on – and when it does click -it packs an explosiveness lacking with Cream-

…go watch any of the youtube of Beck -there is a reason both Clapton and Page say that Jeff Beck is the premier electric guitarist working today-
its really NOT a matter of taste: Jeff Beck uses way more complicated scale structures, modal systems, far more complex timing, just does so much more than Clapton -Clapton sounds stiff an unimaginative next to Beck -and plays with a finese that eludes Page. Jeff Beck is a far better guitarist than Eric Clapton -end of story -though actually, in terms of excitement, big riffs, imagination and emotiveness, so is Page.

I love to hear music explained by non-musicians, it’s funny, it just is. How do you respond when you get lambasted by a legend, I don’t quite know. Jack Bruce is a real living legend and one of the most respected musicians in the world today or any day for that matter. My guess would be, you don’t respond, the guy is entitled to say anything he wants to. Listen to Crossroads from Wheels of Fire and then anything Zepplin has ever recorded live and you’ll see in an instant what Jack Bruce is talking about. If you can’t hear it don’t say another word because you clearly don’t know anything. It is bad form for Jack to open his mouth and say this sort of thing in public, Jack, we know it’s true without you saying it.

On the other hand nothing beats watching a couple of millionaires slap fight over the last cucumber sandwich.

Actually, my comments about Bonham having a better grove and being a better compositional drummer, comes from a noted musician and band leader -noted enough to have played and recorded with several members of the Stones along with countless others -he actually went on to say there was no comparison in terms of the two drummers effectiveness and, influence that tangibles and intangibles all considered, Bonham was just the better rock drummer- as for Bruce being a legend -next to Jimmy Page? I believe the term is ’sincerely deluded’-or perhaps he is in his and some of his deluded fans minds -I guess Jeff Beck just hadn’t got your message jrcel when he had Jimmy introduce him at the Rock and Roll hall of Fame gig -and then, jammed on Beck’s Bolero (a song Page wrote for him) and then Immigrant Song -Beck playing Robert Plants parts…I guess if he was a better musician he would have played Crossroads with Jack…….sheeeeesh!

Ah, but I forgot! Why would a player of Beck’s caliber want Jack Bruce on bass when he has little 22 year old Taj Wilkenfeld -who after 6 years on bass has the finest players in the world clamoring to record with her, and plays with a virtuosity that Bruce doesn’t even come near.

i read all of this with amazement. it is really all about personal taste isn’t it? I do have to wonder how all of these people can be so critical of eric clapton. this guy has done more for rock , blues and the electric guitar than any other player ever …period. he has always played at a high level and has always surrounded himself witht he best of the best. If you asked musicians who really know music most would support the fact that clapton has had more influence and will be collectively considered as the ‘cream’ of all guitarists.

Sorry, if you ask muscians who really know -(and you can go do just this by heading over to the Park West here in Chicago tonight and tomorrow evening as well -both, sold out shows) you can ask just about every good guitarist in town why they are there -and the answer will be to hear the “the best guitar player aroung” (thats an Eric Clapton quote -Jimmy Page says the same thing) and that player is the great Jeff Beck -in another stratosphere from Mr. Clapton

“the best guitar player around” -damned typing!

I know, you heard it from a friend who heard from a guy who heard it from…………………….. ..yeah.

What is your instrument?

jrcel -Pony up with what a great, all-knowing musician you are -not only what instrument, but what band.

Me: I live in Chicago, am close friends with any number of the best players here -of whom you would be familiar. I am part of the music scene here and have actively participated in it for many years on a professional level.

btw -involving oneself in music criticism -or any form of aesthetic argument -it certainly is not a criteria that you be an artist in that specific discipline in order to discuss, or be knowledgable about it. -in fact, in terms of most art -of any kind, good criticism rarely comes from its practitioners -I get, and understand this as a working, professional artist.

Gouge …Yes, Page and Beck put Clapton to shame..not even worth comparing them. But, You really ought to consider your friends more carefully..By the way, you’re quite the name dropper. Your friend Nick Tremulis is one major jerk…give him a rest, or, better yet, tell him he needs to lose the bitterness, he’s a rude, pompous bitter man…except when he needs something…then he’s nice..which is just as sickening.

Lets face it: Jack Bruce ain’t no Taj Wilkenfeld, no matter what anyone thinks-

I’d like to quote something from Farewell: “Their motto is simple: forget the message, forget the lyrics and just play!”.
That’s why I love Cream. That is what I enjoy listening and playing.

And about Cream vs. Zepp.
If you compare them (instrument by instrument) there are no doubt that Cream is better. Two good drummers, two good guitarists (matter of taste who do you like more). But if you compare JPJ to Bruce (anybody did that at here?) you can’t tell they are at the same level. Bruce played more in ONE single song, than JPJ in a concert. Anybody who’d say “It’s not true!” please try to play both of their lines. I do some of their songs and Bruce’s play is much more difficult.

This has been a wide ranging discussion thus far -and has at times been about comparing the triumvirate of great guitarists, Beck, Clapton, and Page: to end this argument in a definitive way, I refer to Jeff Beck’s most recent recorded offerings -Jeff Beck Live This Week At Ronnie Scotts: END OF STORY -Page was at least intelligent enough to watch from a safe distance as an audience member -Clapton on the other hand, foolishly got up and attempted to play with the great modern master guitarist Jeff Beck – where he was promptly BLOWN AWAY!, OUTCLASSED! by a VASTLY SUPERIOR -in EVERY WAY! musician…..its on youtube -end of story-

So Limpi, you play bass in a Cream cover band……and that makes you an expert….sheeeeeeesh!

Perhaps I’m a bit late on this one – I just uncovered it, but the above war of words is very funny to read. For my personal taste, Cream had some good songs but nothing as interesting (nor as powerful) as Led Zeppelin. Perhaps Bruce was only making cracks for the press, but he HAS to realize that Cream played a much different style of music – it was more traditional and bluesy – and “down” – and if you like that, fine!. Beck has his style, which I still love, and Page sits at the top of the heap. I know Clapton is revered, but, c’mon…when you get right down to it, the energy given off at a Zeppelin concert would blow Clapton and company off any stage.

I think Jack Bruce and Etta James need to start a band. “Sour Grapes” might be an appropriate name for them.

okokok -I basically agree with you-except, and I am a huge Jimmy Page fan (almost as bad as maxwimmer aka limpi is a Clapton goupie) (but not quite-) -but there is no way Jimmy is as good as Jeff Beck -no one is -just pickup the Jeff Beck Live This Week at Ronnie Scotts….there is a reason Page in his induction speech for Beck at the hall of fame recently, called Jeff Beck the greatest soloist of our time- one listen to this marvelous recording, its not really in dispute as to who is the finest living electric guitarist -but Page definitely comes next-

Cream was a more innovate power trio …
But Zep defined the hard rock music , and are more versatile
2 Great Bands
Cant decide
FUCK

Jimmy Page is the most overrated guitarist ever and abou tthe laziest. What has he done over the past 30 years? NO MUCH. Very boring and anti-socail music.

I still say Bruce Lordan and Trower should start touring again.those guys kicked ass.Leslie West played circles around Eric,and so did Michael Bloomfeld,Jeff Beck,Johnny Winter,Robin Trower,and if you have ever had teh privledge of seeing Jimmy Page in concert,trust me he can play circles around Clapton-maybe if Page and all the others I mentioned were doing drugs for 3 yrs and had his baby fall from a I don’t know how many story bldg.,Trower,Winter and Page woudl get some of the attention and sympathy Clapton gets.’Nuff said,get Leslie and Corky to reform with Jack-thats a show!!!Actually,if we could get Ginger and Corkey or Bill Lordan from Trower’s band to drum alongside each other it would rock!

gouge:

I’ve been a professional drummer for 35 years and have worked with Michael Corby of The Babys, Rick Ramirez of Boomerang, Vanilla Fudge, Brett Tuggle, David Lee Roth, Coverdale Paige, Fleetwood Mac, Paul Sabu, Mike Wedgwood, Curved Air, Caravan etc………….Hows that or shall I go on. No I’m not a star of any kind but it is my life and I do know a little something about this.

I’ve seen bozo’s like you talk and talk and attempt to dominate a conversation by bullying everyone who tries to make a point but you really take the cake.

well, bozo anonymous, I am a star in my world, and what specific point have I disputed in this conversation in anything other than a very specific, civilized manner -with some humor thrown in? Gross generalizations are modus operandi of a dull mind -all you have here to offer is an ad hominem attack-par for the course and, the actions of an actual bully -nothing but bluster and chest thumping to back up your posturing…if you are such a great drummer and have played with all of these people you brag about having played with…the question would be, why arent you a star..let me ask, how many of these people you claim to have worked with fired you?

The bottom line is, may specifics and many arguments concerning any number of musicians – a variety of opinions on several different topics related have been offered up in this thread as it has evolved. As you claim to be a drummer, I will note that as I felt my knowledge was not as strong on this instrument when the topic became a comparison of Bonham and Baker, I actually had discussion with two of the top musicians here in Chicago -one of them a percussionist in a renowned band -who has kept his job with that band…..both of these people talked about Bonhams superior compositional skills, one of them referencing how Bonham actually expanded upon Carmine Appice’s (Vanilla Fudges real drummer) work, learning how to accomplish with a floor tom what Carmen used that and a snare to achieve…

Now what specific point, are you so upset about how I addressed -that it has caused you enough stress to warrant your little rant?

many specifics da–nd typing!

-and btw has it ever dawned on you anonymous -(why are all ad-hominem attackers on the internet always named anonymous?) that it was me who actually offered up principled, disciplined argument/specifics and made this thread interesting? For whatever reason, I certainly succeeded in being provocative when it comes to you -look at how many names you felt the need to drop in a search for legitimacy -impressive! Have you ever considered just having a good argument, taking a stand as your own person? Try it sometime -its refreshing.

To gouge:
Did I ever tell that Clapton is the greatest guitarplayer of the world? No.
If we’re comparing bands (Cream vs Led Zepp) we have to compare the bass players as well. The difference between Bruce and JPJ is way much more than between Baker/Bonham and Page/Clapton. That’s why I say Cream was better than LZ.

Ps.:I’m not an expert, never said that. But what makes you an expert?
“sheeeeeeesh!”

Limpi, Limpi, Limpi, ( try spouting this acronym 3 times without laughter) -your bass-centric perspective is,….I’m sure Jack Bruce is the better bass player -but, Limpi -its just the bass player….. I get that Page probably hired John Paul Jones for his overall skills as a musician and as an arranger-

Bruce actually is responsible for the contentiousness of this thread -with his vituperative lamblast of Zeppelin and Page in particular…..well the greatest guitarist -in both Pages and Claptons estimation, (Jeff Beck that is) thinks Jimmy Page is good enough to be the fellow guitarist to nominate him into the R&R Hall of Fame-and to play the gig with him (Beck went on to say how he would love to tour in some configuration with Page-

I think Cream is great: having listened to them for the last 40 years -do I think they have the dynamics, versatility or vision of Led Zeppelin? Nope! They seem far more rudimentary….. Do I think Clapton, with his polished, conservative, perfectionism, is as exciting as Page? Nope! Back in the day? Close but still, NOPE!…just not as many chops and different kinds of skills as an instrumentalist, doesn’t have the great, big riffs/hooks, or the compositional inventiveness of a Page-all of which in my opinion, is easier to see now -given his lack of growth as a player over the last 30 years or so-not that Page has been tearing things up -but when he has gone out -with the Black Crowes for instance -the results just seem way more alive than anything Clapton is capable of pulling off now.

for what its worth Limpi, I asked one of my muscian friends (a well known and respected band leader) who he thought was the better player -suggesting I thought it was Bruce -he disagreed and said (-I paraphrase) ‘Paul Jones is a more restrained player but still, very very good -I think a lot of bass players would tell you he is the better player-’

“someone is in need of some tutoring at about a third grade level when it comes to their basic skills concerning the english language…”

Are you offering?? gouge, I think you’ve got a lot to “learn” me. Ha,ha,ha… silly.

No really… Is insulting my third grade spelling and grammar ALL YOU REALLY GOT because it’s really starting to work and I may stop engaging you and the more you keep putting my English down, I may find it boring and stop altogether and NOT TO MENTION MY FEELINGS BEING HURT. (sob)

hey look a bunch of “run-on” sentences and too much usage of a conjunction. Check my spelling stupid. HELP!!!

Zeprulesnot: the mental giant returns…..what, are you saving this stuff to repost everytime RS censors you?

aahhh… the knowledgable, sophisticated defender of the jimmy page legacy… just want to make sure you know what an a-hole you are.

“aahhh… the knowledgable, sophisticated defender of the jimmy page legacy…”

You finally managed to say something intelligent! And, don’t go seismic all at once on us, but it looks as if you may have even discovered spellcheck!

I guess you mean the part about …”you know what an a-hole you are.”

Pinheads usually can’t tell sarcasm when they see it, “defender of the slopfest, jimmy page legacy”.

Too stupid to respond to….what a brilliant tactic……did you think that up all by yourself?

That’s really good. You must have some good writers. Are they the SNL bunch?

I have a wild idea for you Zeprulesnot: why don’t you write an opinion articulating your points of view having to do with Led Zeppelin/Cream -Page/Clapton -Bonham/Baker -whatever-…..something on topic -lets hear what you have to say in depth, minus the name calling vitriol- which btw, only obfuscates any point you are trying to make-

i sort of see jack’s point – but, it was the yardbirds who cleared the real path for hendrix, cream, et al. page joined the yardbirds and used their catalog as a pre-zeppelin lab – and consequently deserves credit jack may be reluctant to pony up with.

good point daniel-Page was a major player on the London rock scene way before Jack Bruce came along -both with the Yarbirds -and as the number 1 session guitarist of that time-

Thats bull that Led Zeppelin started the heavy rock thing,

it was The Who

I’m sick & tired of the bashing Led Zeppelin gets! They are THE BEST band of all time! Cream wish they made original songs as good as Led Zeppelin did! Cream stole more,probably,than any band ever! And Led Zeppelin gets trashed for stealing,Cream stole more! I want to know why Eric Clapton is God. Why? Why do so many think Clapton is better than Jimmy Page? Well,he isn’t! Clapton is nowhere near the song writer,producer,player, that Jimmy Page was in his days with Led Zeppelin! Jimmy Page isn’t sloppy like people claim. If that was the case, why is Page’s accoustic work crystal clear? His technique is superb. Most think Page is sloppy because of the audio theyv’e heard from bootlegs. Remember, the audio from that time is from audience recordings,for the most part. Page’s speed on the fret board was stunning! Why do you think Eric Clapton is called slowhand? John Bonham was better than Ginger Baker. Baker was a great drummer,but John Bonham was so much better! John Paul Jones was & is better than Jack Bruce! John Paul Jones is the most underated musician of our time. The reason for this is probably the fact he was over shadowed by the talent of the other three musician’s in Led Zeppelin! The things Jones did live on stage are amazing. His bass lines are SO good live and on album, and his keyboard work is, out of this world, good. Just put on The Lemon Song. Dare to find me something better from Jack Bruce! Oh,by the way,I like Jack Bruce an awful lot. If Cream was so good, why did Eric Clapton want to call it quits? Because Clapton has an ego problem,that’s why! Clapton hasn’t done anything good since Derek & the Domino’s. Led Zeppelin is better than Cream! So long for now,Cronic#13.

For all those folks that commented about Zep’s “original” songs, Google LED ZEPPELIN PLAGIARISM and see what you get. Original? Not even close.

What’s with you people? Cream and Led Zeppelin are two outstanding bands and are too different to compare. Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck, and Clapton all were great guitarists from the same group and each have a very unique style. Jimmy is on his own plane and so is Clapton, it’s simply a matter of opinon. Jimmy Page could never write Layla and Eric Clapton could never write Stairway (Which I admit is a very overrated song, they have much better songs in their catalog.) Have some respect for the people who paved the way to outstanding rock.

And whoever said The Who is the first band to make heavy stuff, I don’t know about the first, but I kinda agree with you, the who were the first band to rock really hard though.

Unfortunatley Jack Bruce is an asshole who ruined Cream, fantastic musician/vocalist, big asshole.

I feel sorry for you people that fail to recognize both bands as absolutely fantastic, and even if you don’t like one or the other’s music you can at least appreciate what they’ve accomplished. Jack Bruce is just jealous, Cream ended and Zeppelin took over. Who would take their place if there was no Zeppelin?

Both will live forever as amazing, and all you assholes (Including myself) will remain nameless.

#1) Sure, Jack Bruce may well have been half in the bag when he said this (amazing what one can do with a new liver…..I know personally….) but I doubt that he’s at all ‘jealous’ of Led Zeppelin, even for a minute.
#2) JB is in a different class than the Zep guys, and he is the consummate musician/singer not to mention a damn good writer and arranger/producer. There’s not much that Jack Bruce can’t do….much like McCartney….but better (I think) and more enjoyable.
Annoyed or disgusted may be better descriptions than “jealous”. I ask you, comparing the “4″ good originals written by Cream to the “40 or 50″ by Led Zeppelin, how many of those Zep tunes did they in reality write themselves. As opposed to pilfering them from the original old bluesmen who actually DID write them?? And these guys received no credit for them whatsoever. But Page-Plant did.
I recall hearing that Skip James was able to live out his last days in relative comfort (as opposed to relative poverty) thanks to the royalties received from “I’m So Glad”. I don’t believe Zep ever did that, unless ordered by the courts……..as when Willie Dixon sued them, and quite justifiably.
This is what particularly bugged some of the big guys, as it did Keith Richards and Jimi Hendrix.
Listen, I give credit where it’s due. Page is very good within his own style, sometimes erratic, sometimes sloppy in person. Definitely a unique player. John Paul Jones is likewise an excellent musician, as well as underrated……..a fine bass player. But he’s no Jack Bruce. As for Zep’s success, a LOT of it was timing. A similar-style group was the far better original Jeff Beck Group, who were around for two or so years………and then pfffffft……..gone! Sound a bit like Cream??

Less The Bass -I have two words for you: Taj Wilkenfeld -22 years old, Jack Bruce couldn’t play on the same stage with her…

On each Led Zeppelin album there are songs that transcend and redefine in a way Cream was never capable of, the blues genre. Zeppelin is simply a far more imaginative, compositionally complex rock and roll band -there is just more vision there -which is probably why Cream imploded -lets face it 3 albums and it was getting awfully repetitous- where Zeppelin was merely getting started.

As for the British geetar players, clearly Jeff Beck is in a class of his own -something both Clapton and Page readily and publicly acknowledge -then, it must be Page as there is nothing sleepy, boring old Eric has done after perhaps Derek and the Dominoes -that warrants much praise-or attention -he’s just not that good or interesting.

John Paul Jones is a great bass player -compositionally better than Bruce -as an arranger, VASTLY SUPERIOR -just take a look at his resume-

Dear Gouge- Thanks for your take on all this. #1)I have seen Tal
(not Taj) Wilkenfeld live a few times already. With Jeff Beck, of course, my all-time favourite guitarist. Who I say is the BEST, also. BTW, I’ve seen Beck live well over 50 times over a 40-year timespan and that includes the first Jeff Beck Group which also featured Ron Wood, Mick Waller (sometimes Tony Newman) and a then unknown in the U.S. singer;Rod Stewart. Yes, Tal is very good………but I’m quite sure Jack Bruce is able to play just about anything she comes up with. And I don’t believe Tal has either the imagination or the ability to play like Jack Bruce does. And he has been doing for about 50 years now. He turned the ‘bass guitar’ into a different instrument,
than it had been. It was no longer just ‘a bottom’ or a rhythm-only instrument. He has led, where almost all others have followed. Take a good listen to the bass on “Why Doncha” by West,Bruce,& Laing (1972) Nobody else plays remotely like that, with plenty of his trademark flourishes……..with a forceful unique tone courtesy of an original Gibson EB-3; that tone is widely credited to him first. But my point is that Jack Bruce had to think of it before playing it.
And his bass-playing imagination is second to none….Advice to all is to keep listening attentively on the best equipment you can…and don’t hide behind these one-liner slogans that are intended to speak the last word………….such as: LED ZEP R-U-L-E-S!!!!! Truth is, 1) they don’t. 2) they still don’t!

Les The Bas -well, we agree on Jeff Beck -I came to him late -oh I owned the records and followed the career -but I really got in to him over the last 5 years or so -so I envy your long history of listening to him…..now, Clapton- Page: I saw Led Zeppelin twice -first and second tour….Page is a far more versatile exciting guitar player than Clapton -but then so many people are! I was listening to Brad Paisley while driving around yesterday -radio tuned to a country station -he’s on another level than Eric- can smoke him right off the stage!…..Zeppelin is far mor dimensional and compsitionally complex than Cream (I am a life long Cream fan as well Les)….They just have a better grove and play better together than the Cream configuration -as far as dynamics go and variation, you cannot compare the two -as far as hooks and big riffs, Jimmy Page is such a better, more acute smarter player than Clapton, A BETTER ARTIST! willing to take risks where Eric isn’t -no matter how slick Eric is…he is not all that interesting nor inventive -Beck on the Live This Week At Ronnie Scotts makes Clapton look weak and silly -he just doesn’t belong on the same stage with such an absolute monster player -his best days were with Cream -but even then -all the improvisation is completely similar -in fact the improvisational parts of Cream songs are virtually interchangable……

Wilkenfe ld -I have seen her name spelled both Taj and Tai -I think is technically more fascile than Jack Bruce -does she have his vision? She is a young player- but I feel that both Jack and Ginger -for all their skills were never as simply effective as Bonham and Jones -THATS THE PROBLEM! all the riffing that doesn’t add up to where Zeppelin got- not as acute, not as visionary, -and just as indepted to the great blues players as Zeppelin…..as far as making money off the blues Eric Clapton has no room to talk -that guy has sleepwalked through an incredibly lucrative career churning out unmemorable middle of the road fare for years! Making more money than I’m sure all the players who originated the genre combined! As an artist Les – (I am a visual artist) I am betting you will agree with me -the past is there to learn from and respect -rect enough to not merely imitate……I think both Beck and Page -and their respective bands did a far better job of living up to that criteria than the Clapton/Bruce/Baker configuration- I agree with you when it comes to sloganing -and lack of civility……its an interesting discussion -when it is an exchange-

I agree with you when it comes to equipment -my studio is just under 6,000sq ft -I have 6 pa monitors hooked up for rock -and then I have a super high end audiophile system for sit down listening- both are worth every cent I spent on them-

btw Les -as I am guessing we are roughly the same age and as I am certain neither of our careers of listening to music and hearing new things ended with Cream or Zeppelin,….why not add some other context here -what are you listening to thats current?

….lets add some other and some younger players into the mix-

Hey, by chance was that you sitting on the left side of me at the Iron Butterfly/L Zep. show at the Fillmore East in Jan. ‘69? …..Friday nite, late show. If so, sorry my obnoxious then-girlfriend
got some of her spilled soda on you! I figure if I ask everyone I speak to who’s ever been to the show, eventually I’ll run into the guy. lol
Anyway, I went ’cause Page was an ex-Yardbird and I missed the Anderson Theatre show of 3/68. I STILL maintain to this day that they couldn’t hold a candle to the Beck Group…..just like Page was no Beck and never has come close.
To me his (JP) best-ever recorded guitar solo was on Yardbirds B-side ‘Think About It’. You’ll notice I don’t get into the Clapton vs Beck vs Page (sounds like Mad Magazine Spy vs. Spy etc) thing. Just fairly recently, I’ve learned more to understand Eric Clapton the man, as well as the musician….and it all ties in.
And I like him more and more. And understand his best recorded playing such as Sleepy Time Time, Sitting On Top of the World (live), I’m So Glad, to begin with. It may not be the most flashy playing, not by a damn sight, but it has a kind of brilliance in it’s simplicity. And I used to goof on him amongst fellow friends/musicians too. No more. I saw Derek and the Dominoes
before Layla LP came out, and he (Eric) played blues all night on an old sunburst Strat, and damn! was he GREAT. Better than with Cream, I recall thinking……..
So…..where are we now, let’s see.
Bonham never did a whole lot for me
and as ALWAYS, death has greatly elevated his status. He had his strong suit for sure, but for h-e-a-v-y, I loved Cozy Powell the most. In the end, it’s what you or I like the most and our personal
tastes. Because there’s no quantitative measurement for who is “better” etc. Listen, you could think Alvin Lee was THE BEST guitarist ever (somehow, I get the feeling you wouldn’t think that….) and if he was to you, then that’s what matters and his playing makes you happy…. am I wrong? I have been, y’know!
More later; I’m still tired from Yankee Stadium last night, and walking in what may well have been
150 degrees. So it felt. Talk again. And thanks for your intelligent reply, really. Instead of……ahh, you know.

Funny you should mention Alvin Lee: I happened to see Ten Years After -back when- opening for them was a pretty good drummer named Buddy Rich -with Orchestra….when Buddy finished his set, and as he walked off stage he muttered now, here comes Ten Years Later…..I never made it to Fillmore East -West only….so keep up your search!

Page -well he seems to be way more of a rock player than either Clapton or Beck -I think his playing onHow The West Was Won -is textbook great rock guuitar -also his more recent work with the Black Crowes -Live At The Greek -was at times, inspired sorry -I wish I could go there with you on Eric -I saw him at Crossroads -he was arguably the worst guitarist on the stage -Stevie Winwood ate him alive doing Blind Faith stuff while all day Derek Trucks did all the heavy lifting….and that new signature strat he is playing -it sounds AWFUL! -It weird -like he is trying to be an overly refined bore- as far as musicians making fun of him -a lot of great players do deride his playing from what I have heard around………..but back to Beck- the only player I have seen recently who might be at the same level is Marc Ribot -how great is it though to see this guy (Beck) just get better and better? That he is having a real moment and being recognized is really a good thing -artists can go on a long time -and improve! Beck right hand technique you would think should give pause to all flat pickers -as he seems to be extending the very technique for how the electic guitar can be played – deeply moving to watch this man play, what he is capable of….as for somewhat younger players -J Mascis seems like a modern day grunged up Page to me -uses the big Marshalls -I akways try and catch him when he comes through town-

Hey, did you see the Page-Plant tour about ten years ago? Call me nuts, but I thought Page was better
than I ever saw him with Zeppelin…….he was also real good at the Fillmore debut playing his psyche-Telecaster and the band had those diabolical Rickenbacker amps.
I coulda sworn I saw a Marshall hiding behind them. Unless it was Iron Butterfly’s, but I doubt it. I’ve never been to Fillmore West, by the time I was living in S.F., (1973) it had closed.
But I was at Winterland all the time, and saw loads of great shows.
It was much better living in the Bay Area then New York City, and I’d guess it still is.
I hope Jack Bruce regains his health 100% or close to it; I’d love to see him play live again. last time was 1977 with ‘JB and his band’ w/Simon Phillips, Tony Hymas (later to join Beck) and Hugh Burns……..and that was nothing short of great. At the Old Waldorf, in SF too.
Meanwhile, this is turning into a personal forum between you and I…..I wouldn’t be surprised if we get booted soon. After all,it IS Rolling Stone; a Straight Arrow
publication!

…need to get a life.

RIP Les Paul ** 8/13/2009 **

I regretably did not see the much heralded Plant Page Tour…….as I am sure you know Mr Les The Bass -the great Les Paul passed on today -both Beck and Page are really his heirs -and he spoke highly about both of them, what fine players they were….Page and Beck -far more from Les Paul and rockabilly as opposed to Claptons BB King derivations……I think this is a huge difference.

I hope Jack fully recovers and lives long and well with hjis new liver -at the same time, his egregious comments about Zeppelin -and particularly about Page show a complete lack of class -note, Jimmy Page did not respond.

Yes indeed. I’d say “sad” about Les Paul (out of habit, probably) but DAMN! 94 years old?? We should ALL do as well……..It is sad though; for us.
Jack Bruce was just talkin’ shit that day when he said all this stuff, just running off a little. Porbably had his tongue loosened by something, and let go. He’s an amateur when compared to Baker….have you ever read or seen some of HIS criticisms? If they weren’t so hilarious, they’d be downright libelous! LOL.
Page probably laughed it off. Remember, these guys know one another a LOT of years,and I’m sure they know what each other is truly capable of……….also I see that Bruce was ‘taking the piss out of’ the interviewer also.
People love this stuff!

Did you read the Jon Pareles piece on Les Paul Les? He always writes good stuff…..and you are right! What a life -94 years old, playing until the end….

Ginger Baker…..I do think he was the best part of the Cream Reunion stuff -his playing is beautiful-

Maybe if we discuss some other great rhythm sections we wont get the ax here for being off topic: have you had the chance to see Wilco live? John Stirratt and Glen Kotche are almost Zepplinesque at times- both, beasts!……and Nels Cline -is an interesting player -sometimes almost channeling the late master geetar/distortionist John Cipollina……

Les -I am sure you have read the piece on Baker in the current RS- it is kind of marvelous-the man, the article -the whole bit-

No, Gouge, I didn’t see the Pareles
piece on Les Paul (yet?) Where is it available if it is?
I did read the Ginger article in RS and thought it was great!! Reminded me of the old Rolling Stone. In other words: the best.
Baker is a pisser…………
Those unusual names you mentioned; honestly I have never heard of one of them. Which means I’m probably missing something!

Oh, sorry…..of course I knew John Cipollina. And had the pleasure of playing a few songs with him at his little studio in Terra Linda, Cal. A very nice man.
Loved SG’s with cut pickguards he did himself. And old mercury dimes for controls.

John Cipollina…..I was around for all of those shows at the Avalon Ballroom and the Fillmore…everyone in the San Francisco scene knew Quicksilver was the best band -and that John was the geetar god…such, an charismatic, original player! With that long straight hair, wraith like and sppoky pale -thin as a rail, he was like Paganni come back from the dead to haunt the psychedelic era with that custom sg of his -and that wild stack of amps/transistors/tubes -horns…..he was really something…like Beck -big on the whammy bar. That is totally amazing to me that you knew him -and played with him – really cool. Yep, the Ginger Baker piece is just a HOWL! It IS indeed like RS used to be…..

I liked John. He was about as straightforward a guy as you would want to meet. First impression (mine) was how small he really was.
Like….on the back of their first LP, the photo gave the impression of a very tall guy a la Mick Fleetwood. But in reality John was closer to the size of Jeremy Spencer. Well; maybe not THAT small! He did use that trademark quivering vibrato often.

A few things.

Many of you angry and mentioning jealousy ’cause Bruce’s envy of Led Zepp’s fame. You doing the same with Clapton vs. Page stuff!

I went to a music school (professional teachers, end of it you’ll get a paper what says you are a pro musician; so it isn’t like any of us’d open one) and talk with a bass teacher/player. He was very polite, trying not to say anything to offend anybody, but when I mentioned many say Jones’s better then Bruce he was lol (So do I).

You guys say that Page is better ’cause he is a better composer, right? If we follow this logic Townshend is better then him (not to mention Lennon). I think we all laugh at anybody who’d say this. Then what makes a guitarist good? I rating them by their solos. imo anybody could learn to play a song, but playing solos is an another level.

That leads us to #3
Before Cream bands (and many since them) were the follow: a frontman (singer or guitarist) and the rest. The frontman is important, everybody want to see him/her, the others just play behind the frontman. You say I’m stupid? Try name the bandmembers of AC/DC, Nirvana, The Doors, Queen etc. Not to mention who played with Buddy Holly or Hendrix.
Are you stuck?
Cream was a band with three equal musicians. Baker and Bruce give names to the drummers and bassists.

I can hear you say I’m bass (and drums) centric. Let say you’re right (you don’t know me, don’t know what I’m listening to), but aren’t bass and drums highly underrated? Overwhelming comments about guitar(ists) here, too. Ain’t it?

Miss to write down this in the last one.
Once a technician asked Cream from me. When he gave back he said “It’s hard not to listen to the bass.” You don’t hear comments like this so often, do you? (I know there are bands with great bassist like Weather Report, Barbaro, Fermata etc. You don’t have to argue with me about that. Pls!)
Somewhere I read: in Cream Clapton played lead guitar, Bruce lead bass, Baker lead drums. I don’t know whoever wrote this, but it IS TRUE!
Many singers say good singer CAN sing live too, not only in studio. I say that same about all the instruments. That’s why I prefer listening concerts to albums.

And finally a question (I know I will regret): Many of you heared Led Zepp live. But have you ever heared Cream performing live?!? (And I’m not talking about Reunion, that was rubbish. What I’m talking about is the 60s.)
I have doubts…