REP. JACK MURTHA

Rep. Jack Murtha is an unabashed hawk. A veteran of both Vietnam and Korea, the former Marine received a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts for serving his country. Few in the House have done more to support America's soldiers; even Dick Cheney has called the Pennsylvania Democrat "one of my strongest allies in Congress."

But in November, when Murtha declared the occupation in Iraq a failure and proposed a plan to withdraw U.S. troops within six months, Republicans wasted no time in attacking him. Rep. Jean Schmidt called the decorated veteran a "coward" on the House floor, setting off a full-scale shouting match that was broadcast nationwide, and Bush spokesman Scott McClellan accused Murtha of endorsing the "policy positions of Michael Moore."

At seventy-three, Murtha projects a blunt authority that has transformed the debate over Iraq. And unlike his more timid colleagues, he isn't hesitant to return fire when attacked: Accused by Cheney of misplacing his "backbone," the congressman replied, "I like guys who got five deferments and never been there, and send people to war, and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done."

Murtha's no-nonsense outspokenness has earned him praise from both sides of the aisle. "You can agree with him or disagree with him, but this is a man who, first and foremost, loves his country and the troops," says Sen. Chuck Hagel, a Nebraska Republican who has also spoken out against the war. "His courage has forced the debate onto a higher plane."

You've been critical of the war for more than a year. Why go public now with a plan for withdrawal?

I worked on the plan with a former secretary of the Army and three retired combat officers. But I still hesitated to call for redeployment until I went out to Bethesda Naval Hospital and saw the tremendous stamina of these guys who are suffering. Fifteen thousand have been wounded. One young guy lost a piece of his leg when he was hit by a sniper -- then he got his hand blown off when he tried to get rid of a grenade that an insurgent threw at him. That's the kind of heroes you got out there. But we've become the enemy. Eighty percent of Iraqis want us out of there, and forty-five percent say it's justified to kill Americans. It's time to change course.

What do you say to those who call your plan nothing but cut and run?

These damn people don't even pay attention to what I really say in my plan. It calls for redeployment -- an over-the-horizon presence in an allied country. I think terrorism will drop once we're out. But if terrorism other than the insurgency should arise and affect our national security, then we could send our troops back in a hurry to attack terrorist bases.

The president just unveiled a "victory strategy" that commits us to an open-ended occupation of Iraq.

By staying the course, you're only going to lose more people -- and a year from now it won't be any better. One year ago, they kept saying it was going to be better, and it's not only not better, it's worse -- by far. So you can go on like we did in Vietnam, or you can change direction now. You have to do it. It's up to the Iraqis to win a political victory.

What about the claims that Iraq can't govern itself?

It's ridiculous! You can't be condescending to the Iraqis. They're one of the most educated countries in the world, one of the oldest civilizations. We have to give them the incentive to control their own destiny. Sure, they're happy to let us do the fighting -- what the hell, why not? But they don't like Al Qaeda either. Once we redeploy, they'll take over and get rid of the terrorists.

Why do you believe a military solution is no longer possible?

There's an X factor: You have to have the support of the Iraqi public. But everything we have done has turned them against us. Abu Ghraib was an absolute disaster. If you look at the timeline for the casualties, it's one a day until Abu Ghraib. After Abu Ghraib it goes up to two a day. Last month it was four a day.

Why did things go so wrong in Iraq?

We were unprepared for the transition to peace. Everything we did was mishandled. Plans that the military and the State Department had in place -- they ignored 'em. The military tells me that when they were planning the invasion, the administration wouldn't let one of the primary three-star generals in the room. It was only civilians. An awful lot of the military has real problems with this administration. I wrote a letter to the president in 2003 saying, "We must engage the Iraqi population, provide them with a sense of ownership in the rebuilding process." So what do we do? We hire Halliburton.

It's amazing how little we knew about what was going on in Iraq. I went over there on one trip, and somebody asks Ambassador Paul Bremer, "What about Sistani?" Bremer turns to his expert, and the expert says, "Oh, he's a minor cleric." Two weeks later, Sistani rallies 100,000 people in the streets. How can we win a war if the guy in charge doesn't even know that Sistani was the major cleric? Can't be done.

Look at what happened in Fallujah. We forced 150,000 out of their homes before we launched a full-scale assault. We weren't ready for the battle there, because we aren't trained in urban warfare at all. We're basically fighting this war the same way we've always done it: We blow a place up. I'm not blaming the military. That's the way we train them to fight so they can protect our people. But you can't fight this kind of a war that way. Are we winning this thing? Hell, no!

It was said that we got into Vietnam to save Vietnam, but we got out to save the Army. Have we reached that point in Iraq?

Yes, we have. The Army is broken. Today we're 112,000 soldiers short in critical specialties. They're paying bonuses up to $150,000 for a person to go into the service. The National Guard is meeting only eighty percent of its goal nationwide -- and to get the other twenty percent, they've lowered the standards to take those least qualified. All these things put together means an army stretched too thin.

Long-term, we've got a $50 billion shortfall in equipment. I've visited three bases: Hood, Bragg, Stewart. I found shortages everyplace. Infrastructure shortages. Equipment shortages. Troops going to Iraq were C4 -- that's the lowest state of readiness. The reason is, they didn't have equipment to train on. They didn't have radios, they didn't have vehicles they needed to train on before they left. The equipment is worn out.

I'm concerned for the future of the country. We couldn't deploy against a major conventional force if we had to right now. I don't know what the threat might be ten years from now, but we gotta prepare for that threat. And we're not able to because we've spent so much on this war.

You've said you're speaking out for the military because it can't speak out for itself.

They can't. Officers are scared to death to say anything because they'll be fired. Take General Shinseki. He speaks out, and they fire him. He was absolutely right; he fought 'em because he thought we needed more troops. Or take Capt. Ian Fishback speaking out against torture. He said he'd rather die fighting than lower the moral standards of this country. I admire the guy. But they're trying to discredit him. That's the way they operate.

We in Congress cannot sit back. We're the only people who can send our troops to war. And we're the only people who can speak for them, because obviously the military can't speak for itself.

What would you do if you were president?

I'd fire a hell of a lot of people. I told Dick Cheney that Paul Wolfowitz should never have been deputy secretary of defense. I told him, "You got the worst guy in the world in that job. He's not an administrator -- he's a goddamn professor." Wolfowitz called me after he got promoted to the World Bank and said, "Well, you finally got rid of me." But he was in the wrong job.

You and Dick Cheney used to be friends --

He's still a friend. But when it comes to torture, John McCain and I see eye to eye. We should not denigrate ourselves to Al Qaeda's position on torture. That's the worst thing that happened to us.

Does it bother you that you've become such a lightning rod?

It's not about Jack Murtha -- it's about the American public demanding a change in direction. The people are just thirsting for this, and it's going to happen. Our troops have done everything they could do. I'm so proud of these young people: They toppled Saddam Hussein and decimated his army. Now it's time for them to come home.

The Delay Slayer: Craig McDonald