I hate to point this out folks,, But at a 10.2% Unemployment rate that’s still not found it’s high, with wages dropping for those who are working, and with the disconnect of the Democrat Controlled Congress ( notice their aproval rating is less than a drunk midget child molester ), I think 2010 is the Republicans to loose, just like the 2006 and 2008 elections were the Democrats to loose.
The fact of the matter is this, WE THE PEOPLE are forgotten after election day. Those who ignore, and there are many on both sides of the isle,will continue to play musical chairs until WE THE PEOPLE and our WISHES are followed.

I thank GOD it’s being done with elections and not guns..

I can’t wait for my taxes to go sky high so I can pay for everyones healthcare.I tell ya’ I busted my ass all my life.My first job was a ditch digger.I don’t have no college degree.All I did was work hard for 40 of my 55 yrs.Bad enough I’ve been paying for all you lowlifes to sit on your ass and get stoned and drunk.Well except for when you had to drive your new car to pick up your food stamps or go to the hospital to download another one.Please Please,I want to pay your health care costs too.It don’t matter if your not from this country and can’t speak a word of the english language.Your broke because you send all your money back to whatever stain on this earth you came from.I was tryin to figure out the other day how a 20 yr old could have 8 dependants.Wow,you been busy.We sure don’t want you payin no taxes.Why should you.You can’t even pronounce the word.But I bet we can teach you how to vote for the “right guy”.
I think next year I’m gonna try to pay at least 2 of these unfortunate people’s rent or mortgage.I might not make my house payment but your so young with so many kids that you just deserve it.How ’bout you Rolling Stone,Step on up and put your money in the big pot.If these folks don’t want to work dog-gone they shouldn’t have to.

Math on today’s health care vote.
Dems 258
GOP 177

Required for passage 218. Every GOPer can vote NO and the Dems can lose 40 of their own and it will STILL pass. So if it doesn’t pass where does the blame lie? (HINT the answer isn’t Fox News)

A friend of mine, whose combined income with his wife has never gone above $40000 was also worried his taxes would go higher, even thought the bills he pays went up during Bush, he worried about his taxes, not the cost of living.
He refused to understand that taxes would only go up for those making more than $250 thousand a year, less than 3% of the population. His homes TV was always tuned to Fox news. he listened to opinion shows from maniacs as if they were news. Sad actually. They were the same kind of people that felt that no matter what they did and how they voted they opinion meant nothing and never bothered to vote.
He didn’t even want to believe that less than 3% of the population make a quarter million or more. He really thinks the population of the US is more prosperous than it really is, much like poor people in the rest of the world. Another trait, he didn’t consider himself poor, just middle class. Sad actually, reality wasn’t able to make it through his shields, he preferred to live in his fantasy and imagine himself as prosperous.. He believed the opinionators and rejected truth. It’s something we’ve been warned about and have a need to struggle constantly against.

Some things in the Pelonsi bill. One is it won’t be released to the public like she promised. It’s over 1,900 pages.

If you do not get health insurance the penalty is up to $250,000 and five years in prison.

The CBO’s estimate on the Pelonsi bill is $3 trillion over the next 10 years. When I say $3 trillion, some of it is really a shift. For instance Medicare and Medicaid will get cut by $628 billion over 10 years. The actual tax increase would be $1.7 trillion. The number of taxpayers in 2007 was 138 million. So it averages out of a tax increase of about $1,232 per taxpayer per year. But it doesn’t stop there. The government expects an 8% compounded increase in the total cost yearly after that.

The Democrats claim the health bill will help 96% of the American people. That leaves 12 million people. Out of the 47 million people not insured, 10 million people are illegal aliens which are said won’t be helped and 17 million are in households making $50,000 or more so they probably will not get aid. So that leaves 8 million people that will get help from this bill. That’s $37,500 per person per year using that $3 trillion cost.

But of course there is even more! Pelosi’s bill has a stick when it comes to states inacting tort reform. If a state inacts tort reform, the federal government will deny federal health aid to the state. So a person in the state getting Medicare will be getting no care and those getting Medicaid will be getting care from money provided by the state side. Tort reform would save $58 billion a year according to Sen. Reid and between $100-$200 billion a year in unnecessary medical tests according to Reuters.

Those numbers are why people are upset.

Greg: “10 million people are illegal aliens”

Now there’s an interesting number in another one of Greg’s posts full of relentless numbers gathered, no doubt, from Fox or Rush.

Question: If they’re here illegally, how is it you know how many of them there are?

Reaching, again.

There are over 300 million illegals in America, all acting contrary to the laws of nature and the rules of humanity and brotherhood. All calling themselves children of a higher power and actually displaying their lack of self governance.

Coach, I didn’t come up with that number of illegal aliens. The number came from the Census Bureau that came up with 47 million uninsured. It is the one that added that 10 million into the 47 million. The 17 million that made over $50,000 also comes from the Census Bureau which added it in the 47 million. The 12 million that it won’t insure comes from Pelonsi and other Democrats. She and others claim that it will cover 96% of all Americans. 4% of 304 million is 12 million that won’t be covered.

If Obama and Hillary were more turthful, they would have said 20 million U.S. citizens in households making less than $50,000 a year don’t have health insurance at any given time. It was just easier to fluff up the number which politicans do. Sunbtract the 12 million that Pelonsi says won’t be helped from the 20 million eligible for government hand outs leaves 8 million being helped at a cost of $3 trillion for the next 10 years.

So what happens to those 17 million making $50,000 or more? If they don’t buy insurance (and they will have to buy it since they will be making too much money for government hand outs) they will face up to a 5 year prison term and or $250,000 fine if they don’t have health insurance. They will also be paying upwards of $1,000 or more in added taxes per year.

I can’t wait for them to Nationalize Car Insurance..

Put down the calculator Greg. The bigger issue is this: Why is this country that last one to provide universal health care?

It’s a rhetorical question

Coach, I came up with a plan and posted it here. It was less than 10 paragraphs and fully funded. It even included a tax increase of less than $300 per taxpayer. If I had known about the $800 billion in waste that Rueters mentioned, the taxes would have been less. It would have covered 100% of the U.S. citizens.

Wisconsin’s plan is the second most cheapest plan in the nation yet the governor claims that 98% of the state’s citizens have access to healthcare. The Democrat’s House plan claims to cover just 96% of the nations citizens and really only increases the government care by 8 million at a cost of $37,500 per person per year.

Putting the 8 million into Medicaid would have cost less than $480 billion over 10 years. Subract the $200 billion in waste a year from Medicare (Reuters) and there would have been a net savings.

Here is what I think of the Republican health plan. It’s a sorry mess. It’s something that some drunk Republican wrote on a paper coaster at a bar.

Here is what I think of the Democrat’s plans. There should have been tort reform. I was very upset the Democrats are basically protecting the lawyers’ $58 billion a year in fraud a year and the doctor’s $100 to $200 billion in unnecessary tests. So while the Democrats are complaining about $100 billion a year on the combined wars, they are protecting a $158 billion to $258 billion a year in unnecessary waste. The Democratic leaders were against co-ops (payments in Wisconsin are based on age and sex and that’s it), against allowing consumers to cross state lines to buy insurance and against medical tourism which is a big hit in places that do have universal health insurance. I believe that the Democrats were wrong in not going for those options. The Democrats can’t justify spending $37,500 per person per year in health insurance. Not only did the Democrats force conservatives to pay for abortion, they also telling the liberals that they will be paying for faith based healing (who thinks the 700 Club is a hospital?). The Democrats also can’t justify that up to 5 year in prison and or up to a $250,000 fine. There is a difference between not wanting insurance (like the 17 million in households making $50,000 or more that don’t have health insurance, but could afford it) and those wanting insurance but not being able to afford it.

Hey coach, I CAME UP WITH A PLAN…

Now that is a laugh riot.Sounds like a dik.ktater, ‘I have decreed’… so let it be written, so let it be done’.
These type of folks just don’t understand the meaning of cooperation and community.

Anon– And you do? YOU and your ilk are the ones squashing cooperation and community…you guys are the ones simply saying that it has to be your version of reform or no reform at all…that government has to be the only solution, or else there is no solution.

I guess cooperation means everyone else has to cooperate with what you want, right?

Anon: I have a plan too, but I realize that my plan is too simple. Here it is: our individual federal income taxes should cover health care. Period. Anything less is neo-loan shark activity.

Anonymous, you have stated no funded plan idea, unless you back the House plan which is the most inefficient health plan in the world, which also supports frivolous lawsuits and waste.

My plan breaks it down like this using the 47 million number.

10 million illegal aliens must get insurance from their home country since most of them are from countries with universal healthcare. Their home countries are responsible for the payment.

17 million in households making $50,000 or more must get health insurance on their own if they want insurance. If they try to get healthcare without paying for it, for example declaring bankrupcy, it would be considered grand theft.

Rueters listed waste at $200 billion for Medicare. Put the 10 million that are in households making less than $50,000 a year and haven’t had insurance for a year or more in Medicaid. In 2008, there were 49 million in Medicaid at a cost of $4,164 each. Adding 10 million would cost of $41.61 billion a year. Subract the $200 billion in Medicare corruption leaves a government federal savings of $158.39 billion a year.

The remaining 10 million in households making less than $50,000 a year, but able to get insurance within a year should have COBRA backed by unemployment insurance. If the cost is $4,500 per person the added tax would be $326 per taxpayer per year if there are 138 million taxpayers.

Cost over 10 years:
Illegal aliens 0, 17 million in households making $50,000 or more at $4,500 each $765 billion, adding 10 million to Medicaid while reducing fraud in Medicare -$1.5839 trillion, increasing unemployement payments $449.88 billion. Total cost over 10 years: a savings of $369.02 billion.

My plan covers 100% of those living in the U.S. with a net savings to the American people over 10 years of $369.02 billion, the Democratic plan calls for an increase of over $1 trillion in taxes and forcing 17 million to go on insurance at a cost of $765 billion both over a 10 year period. What’s your plan Anonymous?

Anon’s plan is to continue to make ignorant and rude comment which add no value until the Computer lab monitor takes away his access code.

I think that should be the very least we get for the third of our lives we pay in taxes. Efficient health care is the most basic think we could demand from out investment in government. We can fund it by imposing huge fines on these oil, coal and chemical plants that dump their waste, their sh!t into the water the rest of us must drink and the air we must breathe.

If the private sector has proven itself to be criminally self serving, then government must take it over to protect the public. It’s the very least one would expect from the group that is suppossed to protect us. How much evidence do you need of their criminality, collusion and monopolistic nature before something is done about it? Whose gonna protect us, blackwater? Halliburton? It has to be the government.

Anon– How much evidence do you need of the ineptness and inefficiency that is the nature of government? Have you forgotten “Heckuva job, Brownie”? Have you ignored what the humongous messes the government has made of Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and any other huge spending venture? Criminality, collusion, and monopolistic nature…surely you’re talking about Congress, or did I miss something?

The government is built to be slow and deliberating by nature, as its design is perfect for careful review of legislation, regulation and the like. It has proven time and time again that the Federal government cannot handle the day to day operations of running health, running the economy (something we havent made the government do until now) because the bureaucratic system is not well suited to fast, meaningful action. Health care sucks now, lets not replace the current bad system with another, replacing one bureaucracy with another one, albeit the new one funded by my tax dollars. It cannot be government, it has to be another way…how bout we actually use the government as a regulator tool, as was intended?

Well Merk, we’ve waited patiently for over 50 years for the industry to ‘heal thyself.’ And it hasn’t.

Perhaps YOU and your ilk consider that ‘progress’ but there are some among us who do not.

In point of fact, the ‘private sector,’ be it in an industrial, financial, medical or agricultural activity, is incapable of behaving in a manner in keeping with ‘the general welfare’ clause of the U.S. Constitution.

Quite simply, the average citizen/consumer is perceived as a cash cow to be corn-holed at every opportunity.

These ‘things’ (government involvement) happen to the private sector because they simply can NOT be trusted to behave in a civilized manner.

You tank others for their use of ideology but you seem bent on an approach that belies common sense.

IT DOESN’T WORK!!

As an aside, I haven’t seen anyone mention, in the litany of ‘wrongs’ directed at the medical insurance industry, deductibles. Deductibles? What a crock.

And I love how that one chap is so proud that the richest, strongest, wealthiest nation in the country provides the best care for cancer. Of course, mortality rates, both senior and infant. And we’re probably ‘the best’ in heart care. Of course, we’re the WORST civilized country in the world in taking care of ourselves. No wonder we’re good at cancer and heart treatment; we get SO much practice. And it pays SO well.

Who is going to protect us? I am nauseated by the deterioration of the human spirit that has taken place in less than three centuries. People like you deserve exactly what you get – nothing. You will spend the rest of your lives posting ineffectual tripe on boards like this as your freedom and wealth slowly erode under any government that is likely to emerge in the near future. Save your energy. Put it towards consolidating your own prosperity and you won’t have anything to worry about. Most people, however, completely lack the will and fortitude to do so. They crave the false certainty of a benevolent overlord because they have nothing to offer in exchange for what they desire. This has never caused a problem until recent history. People now suffer from the delusion that prosperity is a matter of access versus obtainment. Those people will inevitably support whatever political entity panders the most successfully, but they will get nothing for it. Stop whining, grow up, get a life. No one gives a crap about your insecurities, not even the government.

FBS,

You will probably be surprised to learn that mankind existed a while before you came along. And during that period, a lot of ’systems’ were tried; and proven wanting.

No one’s claiming that government oversight is a benevolent gift from God; not all would seem to suffer from the same myopia that besets you.

However, it’s been proven pretty conclusively that ‘man’ can NOT take care of himself without an overlord.

Now YOU may prefer having Lord Von Fatass as the baron of your fief, but I think you will, in short order, see fit to prefer the inadequate, but stumbling to do right, bureaucracies that are presently in place.

In case you haven’t read history, we DO have the best existence ever on earth. And to whom do we owe such thanks? Certainly not the robber barons who milked this country for all it was worth and then tried to buy their way to heaven by forming ‘foundations’ on their death beds.

Dennis– Relax, and take a deep breath…I’ve never been anything but abashed ideological in my leanings, though I will call people out who appear disingenuous in theirs. If you want to call me out, so be it, but I can give as well as I can take it.

And we’ve been around and around this little merry-go-round. You put all blame on evil big business, I tend to see a litany of government meddling that caused and worsened current conditions. I’m going to stand by my convictions, you yours. I can easily point out the fallacy in your argument, but doing so will not really change your mind about anything, will it?

The market goes through natural boom and bust cycles…even a Lib such as yourself can understand this, correct? Like a forest cleansing itself of dead brush via fires, the bust part of the cycle allows regrowth and continuation. However, you Libs cant seem to leave stuff alone, and shove big govt’s nose where it doesnt belong, prolonging bust cycles with huge amounts of spending and governmet meddling. You argue big business caused all our woes, and I can easily retort that big govt is just as at fault, if not moreso. We’ve seen a gargantuan expanse of federal govt monies, and unemployment has continued to go up, the dollar has continued to devalue, and our GDP is on the verge of collapse. We’re still printing unbacked currency. We’re damn near in a tariff war with both the Chinese and EU, our biggest trading partners and markets. Big business is even more entrenched in government, such as GE, AIG, and others. All after big govt stepped in to “help.” And you still want to savage business? Business is certainly at fault, but government is solely responsible for worsening the conditions and preventing true justice from happening (i.e., companies than ran the risk and failed should have been allowed to fail, be broken up, and sold off) by allowing the market to right itself. So please excuse me if I dont go for the overwarmed, IWW cliches and go running for the incompetent arms of Big Brother…

Merk,

Rest assured, I am breathing calmly and steadily. It’s a trick I’ve learned over the years in dealing with ideologues.

I’m sure there are ‘fallacies’ to my position, as you so astutely point out, but I’m going to have to my answer to fatboy (which seems to have vanished) and that is to call down the lessons of history.

Government has NOT ‘always’ been there for the financial sector as you so cavalierly assert. The government oversight you so roundly blame for market problems is a 20th Century phenomenon. Prior to that, the market was, as you said, boom and bust. Oh, and devious. And disingenuous, as someone herein said. And corrupt. And, well, you get the picture.

The ONLY times there have been ‘busts’ since the government stepped in to ‘ensure the general welfare’ was when they slacked off and gave the market folks enough rope to hang themselves.

And for that they should all, government and marketeers alike, be kneed in the balls. Please note, I am NOT a blind supporter of government oversight. I’m for intelligent, reasonable oversight, but strictly and closely applied.

For argument, Merk, who benefits in booms (and who not) and who suffers in busts (and who not). I’m sure you know I’m speaking relatively here. Sock it to me, big guy.

‘benevolent overlord’ now there’s an oxymoron along the lines of ‘military intelligence’.

We must demand the government to help us, to enforce the protections to the majority guaranteed in the constitution with the vision attested in the declaration, that is what they are there for; else, we must do what the constitution says to do, take matters into our own hands.
Form groups of concerned citizens that go out and capture the excesses on film, get evidence of the pollution that is being belched out by corporations that CHOOSE to destroy the environment rather than invest in ways of preventing their filth from killing the rest of us. Capture on film the abuses by out of control police that treat the population with disrespect and violence. Show them how the wealthy irresponsibly spend what one of their workers might make in a lifetime on a single selfish ostentatious purchase.
Otherwise, we will need to form armed groups to get rid of the oligarchs ourselves, and regardless of who is in government, depose those despots as well.
Yes, it sounds like a violent revolt, but we’ve seen again and again in history that sometimes that’s exactly what it takes to get freedom back. Once the people realize they are actually slaves, they must act or remain in chains forever.
We must have the guts of the Iranian youth who are now acting against the leadership that has proven itself to be traitors to their revolution.
Did we drive out the British to be ruled over by a wealthier, more tyranical class of overlords taxing the population into moral and economic bankruptcy?

HELL NO!!!
BY REASON OR BY FORCE!!!
THE TYRANTS MUST GO!!!

Fratboyism: And nobody gives a crap about your pretentious outbursts against people that want to live in a civilized society that isn’t dominated by industry designed to milk you for all you got, and do nothing to evolve their product which leads us to where we are with our exports today.

Keep thinking that the free marketplace is the way. It’s never shown to be true, and never will. Are there any industrialized nations that DON’T have government? Are there any industrial nations that don’t provide universal health care? Yep. USA. And, how is the ‘prosperity’ of the people in those other nations? Pretty good, and getting better.

Steve, your post reads like one of Jed’s…double monikering are we?

I think the real issue here is that some people view health care as a right and others, a privlige. Personally, I feel like we’ve come far enough as a society that it is not unreasonable to move towards a system whereby health and well being get rolled into our collective expectations of the common good. Perhaps it is not the place of government to mandate evolution of social conciousness, but insofar as there is no real alternative, I am content with government serving in this role. After all, it worked for civil rights, universal sufferage, etc. In this sense, I suppose I see health care as a right. Having said all that, I acknowledge that health care does not exist without the means to provide it. The money has to come from somewhere. Clearly, under current fiscal policies we will be able to deliver health care under some new entitlement without taking on massive debt. We are already failing miserably with Medicare and Medicaid. The only solution is to radically transform our fiscal priorities, including new taxes for those who can afford to pay a little more for the common good, a redistribution of wealth if you prefer. That’s what this comes down to as I said before. It’s either a right or a privlige. Once you acknowledge that it’s a right then reprioritizing government fiscal policies – even if it means taking the unpopular measure of raising taxes – becomes the imperative. We must make our voices heard on this issue. I for one will be contacting my Conressional leadership to demand that raising taxes be included in the dialogue going forward. We have come too far to fear facing down the harsh realities that come with progress.

Jed Clampett

That’s rich, his Identity is brought out to accuse others of the very things he does himself.
A little paranoid that everyone else is doing what you do? Geez kid, grow up already. Go to one of the Reich Wing sites to receive approval instead of attempting to disrupt the conversations of others and inserting ignorance and extremism into the debate.

Jed Clampett

Hey gliebe, you don’t consider that shpiel uncivilized debate? Isn’t it a bit condescending and evidence of your excessive pride?

“Relax, and take a deep breath…
…I will call people out who appear disingenuous…
…I can easily point out the fallacy in your argument…
…even a Lib such as yourself can understand this…
…I can easily retort…
…Big business is even more entrenched in government…
Business is certainly at fault, but government is solely responsible…
…How much evidence do you need of the ineptness and inefficiency that is the nature of government…”

Its funny to see you contradict yourself within the same sentence, if not the same posts. Despite your attestations at being civil, it’s evident you don’t understand the concept, you toss labels out in an effort to denigrate failing to recognize your own tactic. Easily subconsciously influenced, you even incorporate other people’s monikers into your reply. You find it easy to insult others because of your sense of superiority, yet you have a blindness for the largess of business. You blame government for all our ills, but absolve business, even though you recognize that business is deeply entrenched in government, then resist any attempts at removing those entrenched in government because they ‘are the experts’. Master thieves is more apt.

The way you lash out at everything that isn’t in keeping with your ideology, your dogma is evidence of lack of ‘freedom of thought’, particularly since you fail to see how you contradict yourself from one threat to the other or even within a particular post. Your constant argumentation of even simple points is evidence of your attempts to deny others their voice, despite your arguments to the contrary.
Go away child, you have no credibility here. You are only a punching bag, a receptacle for our derision and an example of all the things we abhor in those humans who have sold themselves out to the enemy of humanity. You aren’t even worthy of the title American, deserving of the label Amurrhican, perhaps if you were sent off to war in a foreign land, you would understand a little of the freedom you attempt to deny others with your words, but I doubt that even then you would have the mental capacity of making the connections.

Dennis– It would appear you’ve been studying a different history than I have concerning bust cycles. In the modern era, i.e. the 20th Century and beyond, the driving force behind most bust cycles, and the forces prolonging them, come from government. The three major points that I can think of would be the Depression, the Stagflation Era of the 70s, and Now.

The Great Depression– Caused by government gambling with the Weimar Republic war reparations system (think of Weimar war bonds as the derivative of its day), exacerbated by the literally economy killing Smoot-Hawley Tariff of 1929, which severely closed off our access to global markets, at a time when they were needed most. The net effect of this GOVERNMENT action was a halving of our industrial capacity. Unlike a similar panic in 1926, the government under Hoover, and also under Roosevelt, extended the Depression via its policies until the total mobilization of WWII.

The Stagflation Era– Caused mostly by the Federal Reserve’s contractionary monetary policy in an attempt to curb inflation, that thankfully Paul Volker and his team reversed. Other factors include the various energy crises, also Government caused and exacerbated, the fall of the Bretton Woods monetary system, and general downturns in various industries brought on by foreign competition and bad tariff policy on our part (particularly in the Steel industry). This era is easily the most complex, with all sorts of foreign actors and factors playing in, as blame rests in all sorts of places, but business is the least of them.

Now– Regulation was gutted and ignored by the Government, particularly in the two root causes of the problem; at the CTC and at Fannie and Freddie. The CTC was gutted of its regulatory powers by the Republicans, and Dem stalwarts Barney Frank and Chris Dodd blocked any attempts to regulate any of Freddie and Fannie’s more risky lending practices. Government compounded the problem by refusing to allow the rules of risk to be followed; any company that ran the risk and failed was not allowed to go bankrupt, to be broken up, and sold off, but was now propped up, indefinitely, with federal money. So not only did the Government encourage failure, but IT HAS REWARDED COMPANIES FOR FAILING.

Business certainly deserves blame and prosecution for the failures and illegalities on its end. Had the government not stepped in, those companies would have paid the price for bad business practices, and would be the way of the dodo. History, however, seems to point a contrary picture to your imagine of Business hanging itself; on the contrary, it always seems to be the Government leading business into the noose, then gleefully kicking the chair away…and then blaming business for it.

C’mon Merk, you’re better than that. You rip Dennis for having conviction in his belief that government is the answer, calling it a fallacy. Yet, isn’t your ‘legend of the free market’ a fallacy in and of itself?

Tell me or show me a civilized nation that doesn’t/hasn’t needed government. Hell, even in your free market shouts, you forget that you’re also advocating government regulation. It’s an interesting little fence walk there……..

FREE MARKET is an illusion designed to stir up anti-government sentiment. For the record, you don’t need to cite legend, or even lie to be anti-government. All it takes is a front porch, rocking chair, moonshine, a shotgun, and Lynard Skynard on the radio…….

Coach– I have never called for NO government, I’m not at all an anarchist in any traditional sense, so dont try to label me as the second coming of Bakunin or something. I, to my knowledge, have only called for limited, responsible government, which isnt going to happen if the government becomes the cause and solution et al to every problem we have. So, dont change the argument; its not that I want NO government, I want a streamlined government that can effectively do its primary job, which is governing…and staying out of the way of individuals, letting creative, free thinking beings do mostly as they wish under norms and the like.

I have no problem with regulation, as that should be the governments role (one that T. Roosevelt and Taft understood very well…coincidently, that era has gone down as one of the greatest). However, I have a problem with government mucking around in areas that it’s not suited to be in, and being absolved of problems of its own nature. Business/market is all too often the whipping boy, while the governments equal, or at times, greater, role in said problems is always conviently left out. And all those who clamor for a greater government role ignore the disasterous consequences of such policy from around the world, time and time again. The governments slow, deliberative nature is perfect for crafting laws and day to day governing, but the bureaucracy is completely irrelevant when dealing with the complex changes and dealings that occur HOURLY in the modern economic system.

So I’m not anti government, I’m anti misuse of Government, I’m for sensible monetary and foreign policy, and for maximum personal freedom. The government, outside of a regulatory role, has been shown time and time again to be completely incapable of running the modern economy. I would be more inclined to agree with your “more government, all the time” style of argument had the examples of such policy in history not been so disasterous. Every place government intervention has been tried, economic performance suffers, whether its Algeria under Boumedienne, Iran under both the Shah and Ayatollah Khomeini, Indonesia under Sukarno and Suharto, France under Mitterand, or the US, during various eras. How many times do you libs have to watch government intervention fail, over and over again, before you realize that maybe its not a real sensible policy?

Think of it this way; we are pursuing the same economic and foreign policy that the Soviet Union was 20 years ago…and that didnt end too well, did it? We seem to be not learning from the failures of the past, but emulating them, which is what worries me, immensely.

Maybe Dennis is really Jed switching monikers.

He’s loosing it, just like the conservatives, better to ignore him and watch from a distance. Focus on solutions rather than being drawn into conflicts with the willfully blind and the venom spitters.

Get Real!!

Jed and I read from the same book but are seldom on the exact same page. No matter. If you can’t tell the difference, then we now know where the problem lies.

Can someone please explain to me, again, why young Americans are on the other side of the globe bombing and killing the local inhabitants of a country that can’t even manufacture a go-kart?

Is this the new version of ‘The American Way?’

I was joking, being facetious actually, hence the grin.

“Can someone please explain to me, again, why young Americans are on the other side of the globe bombing and killing the local inhabitants of a country that can’t even manufacture a go-kart?”

That’s easy, because it puts money in the pockets of oligarchs and puts a stain on the government.
We are in a war, though most don’t realize the extent of it. Our enemies know full well that they are trying to erode our faith in the government that is supposed to represent the people, it will make it easier for it to be overthrown. They repeatedly rob the majority and transfer wealth to the un-needy with impunity, because they are criminals and that is all they understand. We are laughed at for recognizing the conspiracies involving wealthy overlords at the very top and beset by disinformation designed to confuse and obfuscate, divide and conquer; it keep us busy with something other than what they truly intend to do… what criminals always do, make others work for them while they enjoy a lavish lifestyle.

Merk: “Think of it this way; we are pursuing the same economic and foreign policy that the Soviet Union was 20 years ago…and that didnt end too well, did it? We seem to be not learning from the failures of the past, but emulating them”

Maybe the Soviet Union failed because the US forced them to……All you cite is the failure without citing the ACTUAL reasons. And, don’t worry, I realize that your reasons will be different than mine.

I dont’ look at the USA through the same lens that most major media networks do……..nor do I buy into this ‘American Way’ legend that says free market will always fix itself…….that legend’s been killed within the past calendar year.

Jed Clampett

Oh they leaned the lessons of the past alright, they just wanted to learn different lessons than most sane people.

WWII taught them that only the military actors and politicians were punished, the leaders of industry that incite and manipulate the other two seem to be untouchable.
The ‘Cold War’ taught them that by having low level wars by proxy, they could make lots of money without calling direct attention on themselves.
The Israeli occupation has taught them that by keeping an entire population destitute you can keep the public distracted while you steal from the treasury and entrench your cronies in positions of power.
The Vietnam war taught them that what the people want can be ignored and the killing and destruction continued until mutiny and revolution within the military starts to threaten.
These wars will not end until the soldiers, those who have to go and kill, give their souls for their country, refuse to go invade foreign lands for the benefit of oligarchs and plutocrats.
What is truly sad is that they don’t realize that the more of our wealth we waste on bombing foreign lands and propping up foreign mafia, the weaker our own population and government gets.

Coach– How have I not cited the reasons for failure? They’re pretty cut and dried; the Soviet Union collapsed under the weight of its own backwards, inept bureaucratic infested failure of an economic system. Other factors helped, but the Soviet Union simply ceased to be an economically viable state, plain and simple. We certainly helped by engaging them in an arms race they couldnt pay for, but the reasons for the USSR’s collapse lies solely with decisions they made. They devalued their currency with overspending, and come 1991 the Soviet system could no longer compete nor survive in the modern economic era, and would have collapsed sooner had it not been for their vast reserves of natural resources. China, and Vietnam, have survived as “C.ommunist” regimes in that thye were able to successfuly take Gorbachev’s Glastnost and Perestroika ideas and keep their states going. The Soviet Union couldnt, for a variety of reasons, irrepairable stagnation and an inability of former state controlled companies being unable to compete without state assisstance chief among them.

I’m also not sure you can say the legend has been killed, being that current problems are government caused and exacerbated. Had there been a free market, perhaps we would have avoided the current troubles…but we’ll never know, as the government cant seem to keep its nose out of places it doesnt belong…we havent had a free market since the days of Taft and T.Roosevelt, not coincedently, during that same era we experienced our greatest period of economic growth.

Before the third reich started their terror campaign, they took over the Reichstag(Bundestag) through the vote, then started passing laws that gave them more and more power under the guise of legality. They needed to control parliament to have legal justification for their campaign and theft. No one bothered to recognize that the laws they were pa.ssing were unconstitutional until it was too late. At first tehy merely wanted to steal from the treasury and put power in the hands of industry. As they became drunk with power, they felt they could steal land and population from their neighbors. The population was needed as slave labor for their business ventures. For some, it worked well, many Swiss accounts got huge and still are.
They created private police forces and gave them authority over the public, much like the transit authorities, school systems and private contractors like Blackwater do today.

Funny thing… one of those economic ventures that helped cause the economic collapse of the soviet union was the waste of treasure in supporting proxy wars and the invasion of Afghanistan while ignoring internal infrastructure and the well being of it’s population. In other words, transfer of the public wealth to private companies… a treason to their revolution which was supposed to empower the proletariat.

Sound familiar?

Another funny thing, we floated them loans to keep them in power and therefore interfered in the internal politics of a foreign nation, one we needed as an opponent to keep draining the treasury to spend on armament. Every time a stinger dropped an Multimillion dollar jet or helicopter, the nation fell deeper into debt while corporations got wealthier.