Jed Clampett

Ah yes, nothing like fairness in politics… reminds of when they jammed the phone lines of democratic party offices to prevent them from organizing vans that would take the elderly to voting booths. Could it be they can’t defeat the will of 70% of the American public without dirty tricks?
Wasn’t that tried and convicted as a crime?
You would think that purposely tampering with communications systems could be considered a terrorist act, but that only counts when brown people do it, right?

It’s almost like watching WWE, same tactics and personality types involved.
‘that little girls had like 8 abortions and she ain’t even 10 yet’ ‘he took his job’.

Jed– 70% want healthcare reform, but only about 35/40% want what is currently being proposed. People want actual reform of the system, not simply replacing the current slow, inefficient bureacracy with another slow, inefficient government bureaucracy. The people are for tort reform, anti-trust legislation/regulation, allowing insurance to be bought beyond state lines, premium caps, and all the other measure that can be taken to allow the free market to work and to keep governments nose out of where it doesnt need to be. We can fix the current system of death panels without simply handing them over to the government…as if a govie bureaucrat is going to treat your health needs better than an insurance industry one…

As for the phone deal, so what? Theres nothing wrong with a bunch of people calling those who govern them…its certainly more legal than the Dems using the Black Panthers to scare off voters like they did in Philly, or having an SEIU goon bite some guys finger off

Bottom line is that both parties use illegal tactics…neither party is immune, which is why the whole lot needs to go…and take their bankrupting policies with them…and phone calls, while dirty, are not espescially illegal compared to whats been done in the past

No Jed I think you mean the Democratic union tactics of where the Democratic party organizers in the county would go down to the union hall with a bus and tell the guys sitting there to get on so they could go vote. If one objected he was taken out and beaten just enough to show the group it was serious. When they got on the bus they were driven to the polling place and given their “Name” to vote, Democratic of course. How did they know whose identity to assume? The Democratic party would get all of its people to “volunteer” for polling duty and at 5 or 6 PM they would call in to the “grass roots organizers” the names of who hadn’t voted.

Merk, what are you doing citing polls? Aren’t you the one who keeps reminding us that it matters how the questions are asked?

MORE than 50% of the country is for Medicare For All. Period. No poll necessary.

Ofcourse all the things you’re citing would help. But, it’s rather funny that you don’t want government interference in the form of Medicare for All, but you’re more than willing for the government to rewrite the rules, regulate the rules, and enforce the rules of the health payment industry.

Much simpler is to either:
A. Pay the hospital yourself, screw the middle man.

B. Pay the government, which then pays for you at a reduced rate, in a non-profitable way. Single-Payer.

Anything else is just a neo-mafioso industry. Period.

Coach– Fair enough, though the poll was conducted by I believe Zogby who has a reputation for pretty fair and unbiased polls. I will say that I trust a Zogby poll over any ABC poll de jure any day (by the way, where are YOU getting the 50% figure? If you’re citing what I think you’re citing, that poll was overwhelming democrat, something like 40 odd percent)

I have no problem with the government regulating to keep things fair and free for all parties involved. That is the governments job, see the Teddy Roosevelt years where government was a strong regulator, but had enough sense to keep out of the way of the market. That said, the government, as an option, has always looked way better on paper than in practice. Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, and other programs are rife with corruption, bureaucratic slowdown, inefficiency, and waste. And you want to turn the entire system over to this?

You Libs refuse to see beyond your little stale, bankrupt argument; either the government has to be in total control of your health, or we have have to stay at the mercy of the Health Care industry…huh? YOU and your ilk are the only ones saying it has to be this way…are you really afraid that the free market, if allowed to work, will run rings around your precious nanny state?

Any logical, reasoning individual can see that we cant afford such a plan, and that such a plan is an even dumber alternative to what we currently have…its like swapping a turd for a more polished turd…we’re still being dealt a pile of cr@p either way…like cutting off your head to deal with your dandruff problem.

Why does the government have to be in control Coach? At least, if you had a credible argument, you would allow each state to decide for themselves on how they want to provide Medicare for all…though judging by its failure already in MA, I’m not sure your quaint little argument holds too much water…

Jed Clampett

Funny how the Gliebe wants all the things that the health insurance industry wants and then calls it the desire of the people.

You’re right, after the bills have been watered down by allowing republican amendment after republican amendment, very few people want the bills in their current form. Particularly because they doesn’t include a single payer choice and regulations on executive salaries.

I agree with you that they should all be canned and allow people with an attention span capable of dealing with more than a thousand pages and to rely on experts instead of lobbyist for the text of those bills. Draining the swamp means getting ALL the alligators and piranhas out.

FreedomWorks actually gave good advice for letter writing for any advocacy group – left, right, or center. FW did not invent the concept. It’s old advice, so make use of it against FW.

Hey, how about some fair press? Where’s your coverage of Organizing for America’s astro-turn efforts? Didn’t you see that we jammed Congressional phone lines with over 100,000 calls supporting government health care? We do the same things groups like FreedomWorks and AFP do, we just have a lot more money because we’re a project of the Democratic National Committee, whereas they’re non-profit grassroots groups.

Tim, you should remember Orwell’s advice about using worn-out metaphors–like “astroturf”. It really has no evocative power any more it’s been used so much. And, to be fair, after seeing how many people were at the 9/12 march FreedomWorks put on (living in DC, I went, those people were genuine and concerned) it actually sounds kind of pathetic to keep saying the opposition is fake. MoveOn and OFA, as noted above, have been trying to do the same thing all year, but the energy just isn’t there for it. And OFA has a list of 13 million people.

Murky: “Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, and other programs are rife with corruption, bureaucratic slowdown, inefficiency, and waste. And you want to turn the entire system over to this?”

Enron, Halliburton, Blackwater, KBR, Smud, PG&E, Lehman, BofA, AETna, are RIFE with the exact same things you said about government. So, why would I want government in control? Price controls and Profit regulation. Period.

Like I’ve said before, when it comes to a couch, you can sell it for whatever you can get for it. But, when it comes to education, energy, and health, those things better not be FOR-PROFIT, or you’re going to burn the middle class and create a huge gap between the haves and have-nots.

Coach– Yes those organization are rife with the same problems, the only difference being, when they run the risk, they fail. People who are incompetent get fired, they go bankrupt or are bought out. With the government, such waste isnt curbed, its celebrated, and the solution is always more taxes, more taxes, more taxes.

So a slow inept bureaucracy is fine so long as its only within the government? What kind of assinine argument is that? Man, my healthcare is slow, rationed, wastes money, and leaves me no healthier than before, but, boy does government have my best interests at heart!

Price control and profit regulation, the latter of which is a moronic misnomer, can easily be done with prudent regulation and free market practices, not government control. Tort reform, curbing of waste and corruption, streamlining inefficiency, breaking up the Insurance monopoly via anti-trust laws, allowing greater market freedom by allowing one to purchase healt insurance from wherever they choose; all can achieve the needed reform without creating another tax dump government boondoggle we cant afford. Profits are not wrong so long as they are earned legally and freely…after all, profits merely mean success…what do you have against success?

Coach, if your argument held any water, whatsoever, then Mass would currently have the best healthcare in the nation…instead, prices for premiums, insurance, and whatnot have gone up. People now have to go to “group” doctor visits, and the state is being bankrupted by its supposedly utopian system. And you want to export this to everyone? Did you not learn anything from “Heckuva job, Brownie”? Every time its given the chance, the free market can do better, faster, and more efficiently than federal government, which is by nature slow and bureaucratic (which in terms of legislation, is how it should be)…IF its allowed to work. Why one would argue for replacing one inefficient system with another just because it has a government stamp strikes one as insane.

Since government is supposed to be open and transparent, it is much more likely that you will uncover waste and abuse in a government system than in a private one.

Case in point, all the ‘dark transactions’ obscured even from regulators eyes which led to the economic collapse.
With a private entity, you don’t know anything until it’s too late, with an open government entity, you have warnings.
Unfortunately, there are too many people from private firms working within government to destroy the governmental institutions that regulate them (see Tim Geitner, Paulson, Bernake). ie. FTC, FCC, FDA, etc etc.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/f rontline/warning/

IT IS THE ECONOMY STUPID!

IT IS THE STUPIDS CONTROLLING THE ECONOMY

Gotta get away from you Merk. You’re starting to get that look in your eye……..Have a drink pal.

Merkwurdigliebe | 10/23/2009, 2:30 pm EST:

“Assinine, moronic, boondoggle, insane.”

Four words you used in your rant against Coach. So, I guess you’re also saying those things about Japan, France, England, GB, Germany, and every other CIVILIZED nation that provides public-funded universal health care.

Funny, but in your rants, you also mentioned that the free markets can work when government regulates it. So, how can you be so anti-government, if it takes government to make your precious wet-dream free market to function?

It doesn’t sound like Coach is against success, but then again, you obviously don’t understand that Coach is against being scammed. The current health care coverage in this country is the largest scam on the planet. And look at their profits. With all those profits, why would/do they deny coverage at all?

I, and many millions of others, would definitely prefer a crappy ass government beauracracy over the current system of monthly rape that is the Insurance industry.

Coach– Sometimes a drink or two is the only way to stay a little sane in such times…but one ought to be concerned about one’s country and its economy, dont you think? Espescially after 8 years of reckless spending and imperial ventures…

Steve– So, being scammed by the government is better than being scammed by the current system? Sounds like a winner to me!

Cuz, at least when the government gives you the shaft, its only because it cares about you, right Steve?

Btw, I’m not anti-government…I’m for limited government in the Lockeian sense…I’m not anti government in the sense of Bakunin or his ilk, and nowhere in my posts did I allude to such. Hence, government does a have a small role to play in the modern economy as a referee, in a regulatory setting. Thats said, government and economies work best when they stay out of the way of one another. Case in point; Singapore has relatively stringent government regulation, but thats about it. Private enterpise has a mostly free reign. And they’ve been untouched by the current recession. Hong Kong has a similar story. Both economic powerhouses understand the role of government in the economy, that it by nature and design is not well suited to handling the day to day runnings of the modern economy…were it, the Soviet Union and any other centrally planned economy de jure would still be around, as opposed to economically stagnant like the few states that still use such an economy (Algeria, Iran, and Laos to name several).

Also, profits are not, by and of themselves, a bad thing, they simply connotate success. The current system undoubtedly needs reform, badly. But creating another tax dump program, in the middle of the worste economy since the Depression, with inflation/stagflation around the corner, doesnt sound like a good proposition, now does it Steve?

Domestic spending was/is inevitable after all the reckless, imperialistic venture spending, combined with domestic neglect (new orleans?)…..don’t you think?

Hey genius, it’s not WHO is scamming you that matters but the SIZE of the scam. Since no one even suggested what you are trying to attribute to them, it reveals your own proclivity for fraud. Misrepresenting their words is defrauding their opinion, something you have said is sacred but continually denigrate with misrepresentation and calumny.

Government has watchdogs within it called the people, those who work for it and have a vested interest in it working right because it is supported by their tax dollars. They will point out when leadership gets out of bounds.

A business has slaves that are beholden to the owners that can hide the size of the scam until it’s too huge to fail, no one can touch them because they own the business and will get rid of anyone not ‘playing ball’. They work in a totalitarian system and surround themselves with individuals as corrupt as themselves.

Profit gained through fraud, corruption and abuse of the workers is a crime and should be treated as such. Unfortunately, too many in America consider it a sign of success.
A con-man’s success is still a crime, when perpetrated against an entire nation, it should be a capital crime because it is treason.
How can anyone be proud of themselves because they made a fortune by cheating the system, stealing futures, collapsing their own companies and receiving untold amounts of guaranteed loans (ie, corporate welfare)?
Where is the pride in abusing the workers, the environment, the government and the economic system?
Does it make them smart or simply criminal because they had to devise ways to cheat their way into success rather than working within the boundaries of morality?

If you defraud the people of Singapore or Hong Kong, you risk loosing your life, wealth or both; quite a deterrent to evildoers, don’t you think?

No he doesn’t, he has a huge and well funded network that does his thinking for him. That’s the problem.
Hasn’t had a free thought in his life, even his ‘excellent taste in reading material’ is imposed upon him by someone’s curriculum.

Fellow Americans trying to cope through positive involvement.

If you follow media, you are misinformed. If you don’t, you are uninformed. Should you think Conspiracy Theorists are kooks, as propaganda would have it, then like Pelosi, we’ll change the name and call it “Orchestrated Legislation” for Government takeover. If you do not fear this Congress then make them fear you through acknowledgment of their intent and exposure of the corruption that exists. Demand Constitutional Rule governs all acts being perpetrated by this Administration. Beware that Overpopulation is the greatest problem facing Earth and Senior Citizens is the biggest liability facing the United States but our bad legislation complicates issues while doing nothing to address the problems.
Please people, review history of attempts to overthrow our Government and the initial move was always to create internal disruption with economic chaos resulting in recession or depression, but a united Society and Constitution ruled Leadership prevailed.
Legislation addendums by Congressional Subversives in the interests of “the powers to be” allows them to regroup and try again fortunately only ending in hard times for us. Look at the Arrogance of this administration toward “What the People Want” and the biased forms provided that slant our input toward support of their assumptions.
All past attempts have ended with massive amounts of wealth being shifted to a very few elitists as their plunder for failed efforts, not unlike the current “Bailouts” as our wealth as a nation was depleted with Bush II. Today’s crisis is more profound in respect to the carefully orchestrated legislation over the last five decades to prevent our recovery through Free Enterprise and indebt every citizen for generations to come by mortgaging our land and resources.
Hope and fear is the motivators most often used and when we fear these Government induced crisis without seeking the facts, followed with the Hopeful Lies toward resolve, our dumbed down Society, largely dependant on Government and Unionization, willingly accepts the lies in exchange for “Obama Money” and the hand outs that only deepen the crisis and further prolong recovery.
For the good, bad or indifference President John Kennedy introduced into our Nation, please recall the following; “Ask not what your Country can do for you, but what you can do for your Country”, his last speech toward exposing the covert operations within our Government and creating better channels for Americans to actively participate, his willful efforts toward the extinction of organized crime and the corruption in our Government, his aggressive Civil Liberties legislation combined with the efforts of Martin Luther King Jr. to establish equality for all while re-establishing a Constitution Governed Republic and his audacious attitude to immediately “Draw The Line” for intrusive factions to dare cross.
How JFK is remembered will vary, but he was here and his motivation was changed to care deeply for this great Nation and to better unite our Society. With his assignation came the boldest effort since the Civil War to manipulate this Society toward internal self-destruction. JFK’s demise was the ultimate turning point in America for what could be gotten away with in Washington. It is all documented if you wish to be informed.
Please forgo; party loyalty, petty self-indulgence and support to the non-productive and unjustifiable elements of Government and Society that present a cancerous abscesses to a seriously ill Society that has been the “World’s Beacon for Liberty“.
Seek the Kooks in Washington that Demand Constitutional Resolve & support them.

Just eliminate the oligarchs that have dammed up the flow of the money supply and release that wealth for the benefit of all instead of a couple of individuals’ pursuit of happiness. Perhaps by making an example of a few hundred billionaires, the Randian rebellion will end.