Are you upset becuase they are using imagery that Obama would be familiar with or because they beating you to your own artwork?

Sound the Alarms:

People promoting free markets and smaller government are using communist propaganda to promote ideas counter to communism….oh the humanity.

BTW, check out the Obamacare logo and compare it to the Nazi soaring eagle….FAIL

Douchbaggery of the highest order. This is either one of the most pathetic excuses for journalism I have ever seen or a lame attempt at distraction. Conservatives are united in their opposition to health care mandates and can’t be bothered by this imbecilic nonsense.

A more poignant image would have been a family of fat people smoking ciggies next to a foreclosure sign in their front yard.

Ummm guys, RS is reporting it because it’s like funny?
Unclench your butt cheeks long enough to let your ideological commitment go, man. You’ll feel better afterward, I swear.

Wow. To even *allude* to comparing yourselves to Solidarity takes either brass balls or the knowledge that your audience lacks an eighth-grader’s knowledge of history.

Their so used to getting punked that they think if they unclench their posteriors the republican leadership will insert something.

Aw, I thought Freedomworks was trying to rip off (sorry, co-opt) the black power salute. Eventually they plan to begin referring to themselves with the N-word in an attempt to portray themselves as the “real” victims of social inequality. After that, they’ll join OJ Simpson in his effort to find the “real” killer.

A symbol is a symbol is a symbol. A raised, clenched fist is a clear symbol of defiance, one that has been around long before the Reds appropriated if for their uses…it no more belongs one side than any other image.

This is easily Freedom of speech and expression, so who cares? Methinks the left is just po’ed that others are using their own Alinsky rules against them…

Jed Clampett

Jon Stewart showed Lindsay Graham almost clap to a statement about education that the President had made in his speech. Evidently he was about to express his agreement with the President but was reminded of the consequences from his party if he dared to do so. Sitting right next to him was John McCain, cognizant of what had just happened expressing an evil smirk on his face. He’s looking more and more like senator Palpatine every day, what a total Sith.

The clenched fist is a symbol for fighting, for war, which if I remember correctly is what McCain and the creatures that have taken over the Republican’t party said they were going to do during the election. Since monsters like that prefer to send others to do their fighting for them, they have hired the propaganda machine to incense the muppets under their control.
I hope it backfires on them, but I fear that like the movie Backdraft, all it would take would be a little oxygen to conflagrate the entire nation into civil war. Unfortunately, that is the very thing these creatures want.
I wonder how many generals they have under their control, ready to pounce on their countrymen when the word is given to act.

It’s sad to see that Americans don’t recognize how their country is being destroyed from within, being prepped for a civil war. I guess that is what happens when you get distracted by those who would have you hunting for enemies without, chasing and being scared of shadows and ignoring the very real monsters within.

Jed– Rightfull call out those who are trying to co-opt the General Will to their own aims, but do not pass off the General Will as something false or fabricated. People are incensed with Washington in general, and are rightfully grousing against Dems, Repubs, and Obama as well. To claim otherwise makes one look partisan and foolish for only hating on one side of the issue; all in Washington are to blame.

I guess people are finally beginning to realize they only voted in the other half of the same corrupt, corporate fed coin.

Merkwurdigliebe,

So if a symbol is a symbol is a symbol would you have a problem with Freedom Works using a swastika for their logo?

The logo thing is more funny than anything but it highlights an extremely disturbing practice in this country: blue collar workers voting against their interests. There are a lot of angry people out there who are angry for one reason only: economic anxiety. People are scared that they’ll lose their place in society. That’s all well and good if those people vote for a party who will ease their fears -classically Democrats, the party of labor- but instead they’re turning around and voting for the party of big business: Republicans. Why? Basically race. If the Democrats hadn’t supported civil rights they’d have the entire south on their side right now as well as every single angry white man in the country.

Jed Clampett

ah, yes; the scorched Earth policy.

Since they have been exposed as rats stealing the communal cheese, blame the pantry and call everyone that access it a rat as well. Brilliant!!!

Got any other tactics worthy of a 5 year old? Of course not, you are stuck in that age group because of the abuse you experienced. Recognize it and deal with it or be forever trapped in childishness.

Word– A symbol only has meaning in the context that it is used. The swastika is a holy symbol in native american and Jainist religions. It was a holy symbol for these peoples long before the Nazi’s used it…therefore, should they stop using it because of how it was perverted over 70 years ago? And, if memory serves, it was used plenty of times to depict Bush and his administration, rightly or wrongly, and no one complained then.

As Freedomworks is still entitled to freedom of speech, whether I or you agree with them or not, they can use whatever symbol they want. Freedom of expression and speech means protecting and making sacred speech that you may personally find abhorrent. So, whatever symbol they use is none of my business, or yours.

Jed– Either the whole system is corrupt, or none of it is and you’re just being increadibly shortsighted or increasingly and mind-numbingly partisan to see only half of the greater problem. You cant have it both ways; the Repubs cant exist without the Dems and vice versa, and reading into who supplies whom with cash, the picture only gets clearer from jumpstreet. So, either corruption is endemic to the whole system, or somewhere along the line you just decided to give up and start talking out of you @ss any chance you got. Got any more vapid, ill formed arguments? Of course not, you see things only through your own tiny, ignorant little lense, facts and reality be damned.

“Freedomworks is still entitled to freedom of speech” does NOT mean that “whatever symbol they use is none of my business, or yours.” Unless, of course, only Freedomworks has freedom of speech and you or I have none.

More bluntly put: Everything put out in public is my business if I want to say something about it. And whatever I say in public is anybody else’s business who wants to say something, in turn, about it. And so on. “Freedom of speech” exempts one only from legal penalties, not from criticism via somebody else’s equal “freedom of speech.”

Finally: While it may be nominally true that the raised fist (in RED yet!) has in the past signified something else other than revolt from the Left, and that the swastika was used much earlier by other people than the Nazis, 999 out of 1,000 people would associate the fist with the Left and the swastika with the Nazis. And in Freedomworks’ audience–not exactly known for its subtlety and appreciation of nuance–probably only one in 100,000 got the allegedly ironic appropriation of the fist. I think they rather shot themselves in the foot–or, more accurately, punched themselves in the nose–with this too-cute bit of logo design. But then, I’m on the side opposite of Freedomworks and I’m rather glad to see it happen.

PS: What’s with this rightwing fascination with unclenching butt cheeks? Something going on behind closed doors at the Freedomworks office?

Aux Barricades– You misunderstand. Not to say that one cannot offer their own opinion, or comment, what was meant by my statement was that, like it or not, you and I have no choice over what Freedomworks chooses as a symbol. They are free do as they wish when choosing a symbol in order to express themselves.

Living in a free, open, and democratic society means coming to grips with the fact that everyone is entitled to express themselves and to speak their piece in the way that they deem necessary, as opposed to the way someone else wants them to.

You can say whatever you want about Freedomworks, conversely, you cant stop Freedomworks from using any symbol they want or saying what they want. So again, how Freedomworks goes about expressing themselves, whether we agree or not, is irrelevant. They could be using a Hammer and Sickle, and still one couldnt do anything about it, other than speak one’s mind…so feel free to criticize (in fact I welcome it, as this group is as phony and two faced as ACORN), but ultimately realize that they have the same right to do as they please.

I hate this ridiculous filter.

a

Alright. What are the rules for posting on this idiotic site? What words can’t you use, etc…

Merkwhatever,

No one is saying FreedomWorks doesn’t have the right to use whatever symbol they want. Of course they do. Where your logic breaks down is that you equate their freedom of expression with that expression being irrelevant which makes absolutely no sense.

It’s not irrelevant that an organization fanatically opposed to s_oc_ialism is using a s_oc_ialist symbol as a logo. It’s hilarious and ironic.

Jed Clampett

With freedom of speech comes responsibility. The analogy of ‘you can’t yell FIRE!! in a crowded theater’ means you can’t spread false information in hopes of panicking the crowd to serve your selfish purpose. Decorum and respect for others is very important in the expression of this freedom, those who disdain decorum and respect or try to minimize their importance are merely hoping to set up the conditions to enable them to take that freedom away in the future. Just like a terrorist act was used to take away freedom and accountability.
Those intent on panicking the already scared through the media with the boogie men of ‘terrorist’, ‘foreigners’, ‘the economy’, ‘the environment’ to such degrees that the real causes of those fears are ignored for the sake of expediency, are merely doing so to secure more power for themselves and deny it from the true holders of power in a republic. When that is done, the people, the public, the populace always looses. The governing power, which is supposed to be little more than an extension of the people’s authority, should not use the discord they themselves create to take more power away from the people and put it in the hands of those beholden to corporate raiders; when that happens, it should be stopped; it should have been done during the previous administration when it truly mattered and doing so would have been a signal to future leadership, make an example of them so to speak.
In our country, government, even at the local level, has been allowed to be taken over by crooks and businessmen intent on making a fortune for themselves and their ‘friends’ at the expense of the working poor and middle class. This is evident in the way contracts are awarded to corporations for things that can be done cheaper and more efficiently by the people through their government. Unfortunately, the public has been left out of the political process at the local level, those elections are poorly advertised, publicized and attended. Seldom do people hear about elections that don’t happen at the national level, even though the local elections affect them more directly. Most can’t even tell you who the candidates are or what their background and agendas might be; it’s probably just as well, since the politicians seldom follow through on their promises and seem to never listen to the majority. This is the basis for Mr. Bush’s ‘I don’t lead by the polls’ affirmations during the previous 8 years.
This neglect by the people of their basic responsibility of voting-in responsible leadership, and the media that is supposed to inform them and help them make good choices has led to an usurpation of the democratic, republican system, to such a degree that most people don’t even understand the basic tenets of such a system, they never really paid attention in civics classes or history classes anyway. These parts of the democratic system are disfunctional at the moment and need drastic measures in order to repair the damage done by decades of neglect.

Since we have corruptible people taking office at the lowest levels, the security apparatus being used as a tool to manipulate, suppress and enslave the people and the people’s treasury being used to fill the coffers of cronies rather than saving for times of need or taking care of the most pressing needs of the majority, we have the current situation where cities are even suggesting selling government buildings and renting them back at huge profits for the ‘political friends’ who happen to secure the contracts. We don’t have viable public transportation systems, healthcare has been turned into a for profit and easily abused mess, education is substandard even when compared to some nations that are considered backwards and the police don’t seem to understand their place in society, making the public scared and subservient to them rather than the inverse.

This problem has a trickle up effect, but the system has been corrupted to such an extent for so long, that crooks can insert themselves at any public office they want and control vast amounts of resources with which to help themselves and their cronies in the future, or disrupt the efficient workings of our institutions to create the excuses for privatization.

This nation, unfortunately, has long ago stopped being a free and democratic society. Freedom has been misinterpreted to mean doing whatever the hell one wants without any regards for how it will affect the neighbors(others); the most basic freedom, that of expression through verbal oration, has been re-interpreted to mean you can say whatever you wish without any regard for veracity, civility, abusiveness, safety or even decorum. Everyone harps on Mr Wilson, but ignores the collective heckle just previously expressed by the republican side to the presidents immigrant portion of the speech. Once again, misdirection, dissembling, obfuscation of truth. It’s not personally coordinated, as I’ve expressed before, they are not truly in control of themselves and have chosen to ignore the invisible war that the world’s religions warn about. The effect is coordinated, but not through personal volition of the muppets, only the free spirits can do that, yet they choose to coordinate to help the majority. Fascinating.
Freedom of expression has become a convenient excuse to set the house on fire by manipulating the easily manipulated among us, the intent is to actually destroy the nation, as the Gliebe has just expressed he wished be done, in coordination with the Newts, O’Really’s, Limpbought’s, et. al.

Those who still care about their nation and feel enough patriotism to rescue, repair, revitalize and evolve the system must get active and try and show others how their nation is being torn asunder from within by a selfish minority of silverspooners and the easily corrupted and manipulated. In other words, those who have allowed the enemy of mankind to drive out the EarthShine from their hearts and minds and allowed the enemy of Earth to take over.

Beware, there are those who wish to convince you to destroy the entire government, those are poised to take over when it is done because they control a vast amount of resources and such an event would be advantageous to them only. There are plenty of muppets willing to be mislead and manipulated towards this endeavour.

It is quite amusing to be called partisan by someone who has read my postings for the last couple of years, it is either devoid of memory and reason or just reacting like the muppets, fitting into a preprogrammed pattern that tells it it must discredit me at any cost, regardless of how big the lie is. I believe it was one of those who subverted the holy symbology of the ancients in the 1930s who said something to the effect that the bigger the lie, the easier it is for the corruptible to believe it, we now see how this is used even by small time followers of the Reich Wing, irrespective of the modern label they hide behind.
Perhaps it’s devoid of any memory of how he complained when his leadership was rightfully identified with those who would use deception and faux religion to ingratiate themselves with a certain segment of the population with the intent of usurping power and authority away from the populace.

The pattern has been used countless times before with great success. Will you be willing to allow them to succeed here as well?

my god I want to drop kick whoever came up with this filter.

Jed Clampett

What they are doing is attempting to destroy the original symbolism attached to the imagery. Same thing the Nazis did with the Swastika and so many other entities.

Word– Where your logic breaks down is that I said no such thing. To the best of my knowledge, all I’ve said is that freedom of speech and expression allow Freedomworks to choose whatever symbol they choose, reguardless of what we think or feel about it. Any and all forms of speech are sacred; from You and I corresponding on this forum, to what Freedomworks chooses as a logo.

Again, people used the swastika to protest Bush, yet not a peep. People used a hammer and sickle to portray Clinton, again, no noise. So, if they choose to use a raised fist, who cares? Other organizations have used “worse” symbols to convey a message, yet since they were on the left side of the spectrum, I guess it was ok, right? Other than voicing your opinion on the matter, theres not much to be done about this, certainly nothing to make a fuss over…if anything is irrelevant, its someone getting worked up over a symbol that they have no claim over and cant stop another organization from using.

Obama and the Obamatrons will stop at nothing to get control of the private sector. Obama and the Obamatrons will stop at nothing to get control of the private sector.

Stinker,

And that’s a great thing. Libertarianism has been proven wrong by the collapse of the unregulated financial sector. Good riddance, conservative.

Word– Government control of the private sector is a good thing? When, if ever, has it worked? I’m sure the good people of Poland, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Fmr Yugoslavia, Laos, Cambodia, Indonesia, Romania, East Germany, the Fmr Soviet Union, Moldova, Bulgaria, Algeria, Yemen, Iran, and elsewhere would certainly disagree you’re ridiculous exclamation that putting a corpulent bureaucracy in control of finance is a good idea.

Government plays a fine role as the nightwatchman, referee state, minimally regulating and allowing the market to mostly act freely…which is a system we havent had since before the Great Depression. Everywhere government control of the private sector has been tried it has led to corruption, stagnation, and general economic ineptitude. Less regulation is fine, so long as a free market system is followed, i.e., allowing those who make bad decisions to fail, be sold off, broken up, and restructured. For too long we’ve allowed businesses to use the govt as a crutch (GM, Fannie & Freddie, Big Tobacco) when they become unable to compete in the market…so, an intertwining of government and business is a retarded proposition.

“The American future is an innumerable multitude of men, all equal and alike, incessantly endeavoring to procure the petty and paltry pleasures with which they glut their lives. Government becomes the parent, as “it provides for their security, foresees and supplies their necessities, facilitates their pleasures, manages their principal concerns, directs their industry, regulates the descent of property, and subdivides their inheritances: what remains, but to spare them all the care of thinking and all the trouble of living? Such a power does not destroy, but it prevents existence; it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.” – ‘Alexis de Tocqueville, ‘Democracy in America,’ Vol. 2, Part 4, Chap. 6 (1840)

Today’s feckless Congressmen, even Republicans, do not yet see that Joe Wilson’s cry of “liar” was the modern Paul Revere, calling to America that “The Obamas are coming.”

Yes, we need the clenched fist image because a couple hundred years ago Paul Revere was calling out the militia, and they respondee. Today, it is a mild Tea Party, and it will be too late for use of our guns, as they did in the First American Revolution.

Today’s revolution must be fought with more Akorn exposes and more corruption revealed.

Truth can win IF IF it is broadly spread and finally accepted.

Obama is headed for the dustbin of the swamp, and good riddance.

Karl Loren
Author

Merkwhatever,

You said it right here: “You can say whatever you want about Freedomworks, conversely, you cant stop Freedomworks from using any symbol they want or saying what they want. So again, how Freedomworks goes about expressing themselves, whether we agree or not, is irrelevant.”

Again, how they go about expressing themselves is absolutely relevant when the symbol they use directly contradicts their beliefs. Again, it’s ironic and hilarious and simply displays the stupidity of the folks who decide these things at freedom works. This is pretty easy to understand. Not sure why you can’t.

When has government control over the private sector worked? Really? Have you been living under a rock the past few years? How ’bout FDR’s regulating the financial industry which broke up the destructive boom-bust cycles of unregulated capitalism and gave us almost 4 decades of stability, growth and a reduction of income inequality. Unfortunately the worst president in history, Reagan, reversed that trend and started the deregulation and free market wild west that so far has produced a tech stock boom and bust, oil boom and bust and a housing boom and bust that almost destroyed our country last fall. We just celebrated the first anniversary of the fall of Lehman Bros. Did you really forget how completely unregulated markets failed that quickly?

You free market nuts are so thoroughly wrong it’s staggering. Here’s the main problem: Capitalism is a human practice and people get things wrong. Discredited libertarians like yourself usually believe the market is some perfect, zen-like system that will always produce the right price for the value, etc… It’s not. Just look at the housing market that imploded last year: it was based on an irrational belief that housing prices would never go down. That was a HUMAN belief, it was wrong and we paid for it.

Banks should not have been allowed to issue subprime mortgages to people they knew didn’t understand them, the credit default swap market which is literally an insane idea should never have happened, the investment rating companies were basically completely corrupt, Alan Greenspan (the definition of a libertarian economist) kept the interest rate too low for too long to keep Bush elected, etc…

For someone to claim that deregulated free market capitalism works a year after deregulated free market capitalism caused the worst recession since the Great Depression (also caused by deregulated free market capitalism) shows that you are either amnesiac or a complete idiot.

Word– A raised, clenched fist only symbolizes defiance. In terms of ideology, thats it. That symbol doesnt belong to the left any more than it does to anyone else…if we were talking about a Hammer and a Sickle, perhaps, but again, the clenched fist is a rather primordial symbol that stood for defiance long before the left and freedomworks used it as such. Since Freedomworks believes that they are being defiant of government policies, then its use is entirely accurate.

Is it ironic and hilarious? That is simply your opinion; you’re certainly entitled to it, but that doesnt mean your interpretation is right. The symbol in no way contradicts their beliefs…they want to be defiant of government, hence, they choose a symbol that traditionally stands for defiance of the powers at be.

So, being that the fist is a relatively neutral symbol, and you and I have no say over what they choose to express themselves, what do you care? Is it simply because the right is using the left’s own tactics against them? I didnt hear you complaining when Anti-Bush protesters used the swastika to oppose Bush…I didnt hear you claiming it was “ironic and hilarious” and that those people freely expressing themselves were “stupid.” A bit of a double standard…it seems that much is pretty easy to understand…I’m not sure why YOU cant.

He doesn’t understand because it’s inconvenient for him to. It would mean him having to dismantle his belief systems and rebuild them in a more advanced form… that is always a source of fear, and since he’s a chicken instead of a chickenhawk, he’d rather spit venom from within his box.

I say, I say Son, Isn’t it time you stopped listening to the shadows?

When has government control over the private sector worked? Really? Have you been living under a rock the past few years? How ’bout FDR’s regulating the financial industry which broke up the destructive boom-bust cycles of unregulated capitalism and gave us almost 4 decades of stability, growth and a reduction of income inequality. Unfortunately the worst president in history, Reagan, reversed that trend and started the deregulation and free market wild west that so far has produced a tech stock boom and bust, oil boom and bust and a housing boom and bust that almost destroyed our country last fall. We just celebrated the first anniversary of the fall of Lehman Bros. Did you really forget how completely unregulated markets failed that quickly?

You free market nuts are so thoroughly wrong it’s staggering. Here’s the main problem: Capitalism is a human practice and people get things wrong. Discredited libertarians like yourself usually believe the market is some perfect, zen-like system that will always produce the right price for the value, etc… It’s not. Just look at the housing market that imploded last year: it was based on an irrational belief that housing prices would never go down. That was a HUMAN belief, it was wrong and we paid for it.

Banks should not have been allowed to issue subprime mortgages to people they knew didn’t understand them, the credit default swap market which is literally an insane idea should never have happened, the investment rating companies were basically completely corrupt, Alan Greenspan (the definition of a libertarian economist) kept the interest rate too low for too long to keep Bush elected, etc…

For someone to claim that deregulated free market capitalism works a year after deregulated free market capitalism caused the worst recession since the Great Depression (also caused by deregulated free market capitalism) shows that you are either amnesiac or a complete idiot.

Just what are you libs not getting?

Quoting from the Steinhauser email, “I’ve been studying and applying the tactics of the left for the last few years, and although I despise their bad ideas, they have us beat when it comes to symbolism, activism and dominating the public debate. I think we can learn from them and co-opt their symbols, some of their messages and even their tactics.”

He’s exactly right.

When has government control over the priv_ate sector worked? Really? Have you been living under a rock the past few years? How ’bout FDR’s regu_lating the finan_cial industry which broke up the destruct_ive boom-bust cycles of unregulated capitalism and gave us almost 4 decades of stability, growth and a reduction of income inequ_ality. Unfortunately the worst president in history, Rea_gan, reversed that trend and started the deregu_lation and free m_arket wild west that so far has produced a tech stock boom and bust, oil boom and bust and a housing boom and bust that almost destroyed our country last fall. We just celebrated the first anniversary of the fall of Leh_man Bros. Did you really forget how completely unregulated mar_kets failed that quickly?

You free mar_ket nuts are so thoroughly wrong it’s staggering. Here’s the main problem: Capi_talism is a human practice and people get things wrong. Discredited libertari_ans like yourself usually believe the market is some perfect, zen-like system that will always produce the right price for the value, etc… It’s not. Just look at the housing mar_ket that imploded last year: it was based on an irrational belief that housing prices would never go down. That was a HUMAN belief, it was wrong and we paid for it.

Banks should not have been allowed to issue subprime mort_gages to people they knew didn’t understand them, the credit default swap market which is literally an insane idea should never have happened, the in_vestment rating companies were basically completely corrupt, Alan Greenspan (the definition of a libertarian economist) kept the interest rate too low for too long to keep Bush elected, etc…

For someone to claim that deregulated free market capital_ism works a year after dere_gulated free market capitali_sm caused the worst rece_ssion since the Great Depres_sion (also caused by deregu_lated free market capital_ism) shows that you are either amnesiac or a complete idiot.

Jed Clampett

I believe it’s the latter.

Revolutionist points out the fallacy of the Reich Wing’s predominant ideology/theology. It mirrors the ideology of the Third Reich, co-opting the symbology of the past was their forte, it is done to destroy the memory of the past, our collective history. They are not using the tactics of the left, they are using the tactics of the Reich. Think about the fact that they co-opted the Catholic religion and were able to use a great number of them and the leadership in Rome to justify, condone and bless the extermination of ‘undesirables’.

BEAU-TI-FULL!!!

I find it rather curious that no one has pointed out that Wilhelm Reich has a last name that can be equated with that type of mentality, even though by all his writings and achievements one can discern the opposite ideology and motivation.
No one caught on to that?
Willful ignorance?
Too difficult to accept?
Perhaps the external programming has worked too well on some of us.

Capitalism failed? No. The government has failed to do its job. They should be out busting corrupt politicians and bankers instead of putting innocent people on death row.

Here’s an idea for change. Take one half of all the federally controlled lands in the country and turn them over to minority owned businesses. Offer minorities no interest loans to pursue careers in agriculture and give them free land to farm. Encourage them to move out of the inner city cesspools that the government has trapped them in.

Never happen. We don’t want THAT MUCH change.

Word– FDR’s regulations? You mean the ones that prolonged and worsened the Great Depression? Nice try Word, but you’re going to have to try harder than that to make your case.

You misunderstand. I call for light, smart regulation. Reagan was hardly the worst president of all time (I suggest you look into Pierce, Buchanan, Warren G. Harding, etc), and his deregulation was necessary and produced the greatest growth of wealth and prosperity in the history of the modern era. It was only after his deregulation was perverted into a joke under Clinton and Bush that things went awry.

You’re also assuming that we had a free market all this time, which makes me question your basic knowledge of economics and what a free market actually is. We havent had a free market since about the era of Teddy Roosevelt. Again, any of the lefts solutions to economic problems have been so thoroughly discredited by the 20th Century, that anyone on the left is in no place to talk about anyone being discredited, precisely when liberals have a fair stake in what created this mess. Government control of the private sector? How’d that work out for the Soviet Union, man that was a real economic powerhouse wasnt it? If you think Greenspan was a libertarian, then you are a moron who doesnt know the first thing about Libertarianism. The market works best when left mostly to its own devices, with only a bit of regulation to keep things fair (note, not NO regulation, which leads to anarchy and the type of crashes we’ve just witnessed, nor OVER regulation, which prolongs and worsens such crashes)

Unrestrained Capitalism is not the same as the free market…and since you havent offered any solution (and knowing your probable response, you wont offer a viable one). Those who run the risk and fail should be broken up and sold off, not coddled with bailouts. So before you start calling people out as discredited, just remember the whole piss-poor record of the left when it comes to economics, as evidenced by your complete inane rantings and misunderstandings of global finance.

Jed– Since Fascism and the Third Reich were leftist movements, wouldnt that mean that freedomworks is still co-opting the left?

Right wing thought = southern racism and whining about how they lost the civil war.

Southerners are worthless.

A brilliant friend of mine, who is all too familiar with the problems in the healthcare system because he is an advocate for the disabled, who was himself born missing two limbs, called the recent demonstration “The Million Moron March.” Both he and I suspect that this a contigent of mostly under-educated people who are being manipulated with over-simplified rhetoric by people with lots of money and power to work against their own interests. If they are so against government spending, why didn’t they demonstrate when Bush was spending so much money on an unnecessisary war or when Bernenke and Paulson (appointed under Bush) came forward, before Obama was even elected, to beg for money to bail out financial institutions that had gambled away their money? Ahem, and now they are screaming for more unfettered free market capitalism…?!? They blame Democrsts for the financial crisis because of the stupid decision to give home loans to people who couldn’t repay them, but they seem completely ignorant of how much that problem was magnified by all the Reagan-style deregulation in banking that allowed banks to create supposed triple A stocks with nothing backing them up but bets that people would default. Note in the article how hard their leaders are working to taylor thier message. They claim to be protesting excessive government spending, but, based on the timing, their real agenda is obviously to kill the healthcare bill and to discredit Obama.

If the fact that markets are a “human practice” is supposedly the undoing of capitalism, what makes you so sure that a command system, presumably also a “human practice” will improve conditions? It seems to me that because humans are prone to error, a system whereby prices are set by an aggregate of decisions from all players in the market is inherently more efficient where than a system where prices are set by an individual or committee. What data supports your contention? Also, it is not correct to assert that New Deal regulation fostered prosperity. The war and post-war booms are much more complicated than what you suggest. The stagnation of the 70s though has clearly been demonstrated to have emerged as a result of government created artificialities. Economic expansion since then has resulted from removing restrictions from capital markets.

If southerners are worthless, how come the sun belt has been enjoying prosperity and growth while the rust belt is in a state of pronlonged decline?

Jed Clampett

petroleum Military Industrial Complex big energy in the form of gas drilling and electricity generation drawing the big money with lax taxation schemes on the very wealthy lots of chap labor because the real economic engine is destitute

Need more reasons?

BTW, it’s not really southerners, it’s the fools that are intermingled in all facets of society that are corrupted within. Those that look upon themselves poor in spirit so must paint all others with the same brush so as to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.
“hey, I know I’m bad, but that’s just human nature, I’m not nearly as bad as Jeffry Dhalmer, I only eat human kidneys. I don’t crack holes in their skulls and pour in hot water to turn them into my sex slaves… I’m a free thinker”
They tell themselves that lie and then feel justified in being vile creatures themselves, they just aren’t as bad as the real bad ones, the ones who have succumbed to ‘human nature’. Truly Inhuman Behavior IMHO.

alex,

“If southerners are worthless, how come the sun belt has been enjoying prosperity and growth while the rust belt is in a state of pronlonged decline?”

First, you’re not experiencing a period of prosperity; the south has the most dismal record of the entire country.

Second, you’re obviously talking about Asian car companies competing with American ones. Since you “American” hypocrites in the worthless south have allowed foreign car companies to operate without the same worker protections the Detroit auto makers have you’ve effectively lowered the standard of living for all auto workers.

Globalization is evil. Pure and simple. Why? Because Americans are on top now and I have a STRONG bias towards America. In a globalized world there is nowhere for Americans to go but down. In my book that makes proponents of globalization traitors. Alex, you are barely an American.

just another free market nut,

Excellent points. Here’s the issue: strong regulation has been proven successful. From FDR to Reagan the U.S. experienced the best economic era in its history. If you think the shrinking of income inequality had nothing to do with regulating speculative, boom-bust financial markets then you might want to take an econ and a history course.

I could go on about the repeal of Glass Steagall in 1999 and the destruction it caused that but I won’t belabor the point. The answer to your question about human fallibility is the same as the U.S. founders’ answer: you create competing systems, one capitalist the other regulatory where the entire goal is for each side to fight each other. The idea is that both systems are equal, like congress is to the executive is to the judicial branches.

You write about what’s most efficient. I don’t care about what’s most efficient. I care about what type of economic system provides the greatest quality of life for the most Americans. In our history that has been a left of center, over-regulated system punctuated by a lot of hand outs to have nots. It’s a system with tariffs and government investment in infrastructure and a strong central bank.

Capitalism is a human activity that should be regulated the same way we regulate other human activities. For instance, it’s illegal to murder someone. Why should it be legal to do the financial equivalent? Think of regulators as policemen and you’ll start understanding what’s needed.

And as for the stagnation of the 70’s? I’d take that any day and twice on Sundays over the Great Depression. Game. Set. Match.

Merkwhatever,

This symbol thing really confuses you doesn’t it? Well it’s boring me so let’s just agree on one thing: a symbol MEANS SOMETHING. In fact, TO MEAN SOMETHING IS THE FUNCTION OF A SYMBOL.

Can we agree on that at least? PLEASE????

Also, using a swastika to protest Bush is entirely appropriate since Bush is a nazi. Using s_ocia_list imagery to protest an anti-s_ocial_ist message isn’t.

C’mon man. You can get this. Just keep trying….

merwhatever,

“it was only after his deregulation was perverted into a joke..”

Really? Christ man can you not understand that Reagan CREATED THE CONDITIONS FOR DEREGULATION TO BE PERVERTED INTO A JOKE? That was the whole point. Once you start down that path it doesn’t end and even in his drooling alzheimer state Reagan knew it.

You think liberals had an equal stake in creating this financial disaster? WRONG. Most of it was Greenspan’s fault because of his Ayn Rand-inspired libertarian bull. Libertarians have been so thoroughly discredited by this crises it amazes me you can show your face in public. YOU CREATED THIS DISASTER MERKWHATEVER. TAKE SOME “PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY” FOR IT AND ADMIT YOUR ENTIRE OUTLOOK ON LIFE IS WRONG.

As for my solutions to this crisis read my responses to the infinitely more interesting “just another free market nut.” I won’t waste them on someone who is so idiotic they can’t appreciate the hypocrisy of an anti-so_cial_ist group using s_ocial_ist imagery for their logo.

Word— You are the worst kind of jackass; a moron who speaks with vehement authority on a subject on which you know nothing about.
Nowhere in your posts did you provide anything close to a lucid economic thought. Solutions? You merely stated that the South has a dismal record (not true), you’ve made patently false observations about the car industry, and you stated that Globalism is evil, but only vaguely hinting at why. None of what you stated has a basis in fact, only in your own little stunted opinion. Have you been to the South? Do you know a single thing about it outside of your little biased, simpleton view?

Those Asian car companies are successful as they weren’t shackled by the UAW rules that drove GM into the ground. GM gave out a crap product for decades, and the Unions refused to give up any concessions with the changing times. The workers at Toyota, Honda, and other plants voted to be non-union, and they live better than people in the Rust Belt. Take a look at Detroit and then go to Tacoma where they make the Toyota pickups and then give your little asinine rant about car companies and lower standards of living.

Is globalization evil? At its root, it’s simply free trade between nations. Because of it, you now have a larger global market in which to shop for various items you wouldn’t be able to get otherwise, like foreign cars, fruits and vegetables out of season, seafood, and other technologies. How do you plan to stop globalization, turn the nation into a land of isolated luddites? Simply calling globalization evil is retarded, as it doesn’t say why it’s evil, nor does it account for the beneficial aspects of it. One certainly ought to be careful of the side effects concerning labor rights and environmental standards, but if allowed to work the right way, the market will correct such problems.

Alan Greenspan is a libertarian? Do you even have the slightest notion of what libertarian economic policy entails? Alan Greenspan was about as much a libertarian as Che Guevara was a right wing bible thumper. All of his policies in office RAN COUTNER TO ESTABLISHED LIBERTARIAN THOUGHT. You claiming otherwise either means your ignorant or retarded, and possibly both.

You have NO SOLUTIONS. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but Liberals were actively involved in the subprime loan scandal in the early 80s, actively involved in the dot com bubble, liberals championed the housing bubble as the American Dream (providing everyone with a home), not to mention the greater failures of liberal economic policy, from the Smoot-Hawley tariff to the bankrupt ideologies of Communism, Fascism, and other strains of the ideology. Liberals have left behind a fine legacy; an economically bankrupt Eastern Europe, Russia, North and Sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, and elsewhere.

So please, go back to the kiddie pool before you shoot your mouth off about a subject which you don’t understand. I await you next post with more cartoonish, and false, diatribes that have no working connection to any strain of economic thought, save bankrupt Marxist and Syndicalist ones.

No, I am not a southerner. I was born and raised in NYC and live in Philly now. I travel to the south frequently and find it more and more prosperous with each visit. I recognize in the south (and west) a vitality that has been lost in the Northeast and Great Lakes. So, I don’t know what you mean by dismal record. I find the urban decay in the rustbelt much more dismal. The politics of this region is centered on squeezing more and more out of a shrinking taxbase. While in the south, people are talking about growth and development. People are generally more willing to take a can-do attitude toward making new opportunities instead of looking to local government for a leg up. Liberals are like locusts though, and it would not be a shocker to see them migrate to urban areas in the south to take advantage of the prosperity.

Manufacturing has declined in the US, not because the government or corporate sector has failed to protect it, but because the rest of the world has figured out how to do it. You can lament globalization all you want, but it is here to stay. Too many people have a stake in its expansion for it to go away because a bunch of self important westerners fear it and have some misplace sense of guilt about it. Globalization is simply what happens when the rest of the world decides they want a piece of the action. You seem to think that prosperity is a zero sum game where one person’s game is another’s loss. There is no reason to think that as economies develop overseas that America and Americans will get shut out. Globalization does not mean a shift in the ownership in capital so much as it means more capital. There will be nothing to do with that capital if it is not put to use to serve a global economy which most certainly will include the USA.

It is hard to understand how someone such as yourself gets to be so jaded, so afraid of the future, that you have to turn against the establishment. Certainly there are problems which must be solved, but by no means does this require such a repudiation of a system that confers prosperity on so many people. It’s almost as if you are demanding perfection from the world around you without recognizing that it is ultimately up to you to determine the course your life will take. If the rest of the world lapsed into such a pathetic state, nothing would get done. The human race would shrivel up and go extinct. It is generally the way of stunted human beings to find the fault in the world around them instead of looking within themselves for the impetus for change. I pity you.

Alex,

I pity you for your stupidity. You bring up your irrelevant personal experiences traveling to the south to support your predetermined right wing bias. Basically you’ve stated your opinion and offered no justification for it whatsoever. Good luck winning any argument that way.

How is the south’s record dismal? Let me count the ways: the south has the worst health record in the entire country with Mississippi and Louisiana as the two least healthy states. The least healthy 8 states are all southern states and there is no southern state in the top 10.

Unemployment is generally higher in the south, the only southern state in the 10 most employed states is Virginia (because of D.C.) and only 4 southern states are in the top 25.

The percentage of people under the poverty level is highest in the south with 8 of the worst 10 states being southern ones.

Education is generally worse in the south with 7 of 10 states with the worst high school dropout rates being southern ones.

The list goes on.

Manufacturing hasn’t declined because the rest of the world has caught up to us, it’s declined because we don’t tax foreign imports the way we used to. Manufacturing in the U.S. developed under the protectionist “American” economic system favored by the Abraham Lincoln and the north in the U.S. (and bitterly opposed by the cheap labor, slave-owning south) and essentially created the middle class.

Economists today, because they are idiots who can’t get anything right, believe that free trade creates more jobs than it destroys. Sure it does. IT CREATES MORE JOBS IN OTHER COUNTRIES WITH CHEAPER LABOR.

These clowns like to say that comparative advantage, or the fact that some countries can produce certain goods more efficiently than others, is a good reason to keep free trade markets in place. Well if you’re going to go that route then the countries who produce the cheapest workers are the most efficient. A doctor is a doctor is a doctor. Same with engineers, architects, etc… As long as the quality is there the best deal is to go to the cheapest countries. This is what’s known as a race to the bottom for all.

Most entrenched interests know this however and protect themselves which brings us to another problem with free trade: no one believes in it when their own job or profit margin is on the line. Take u.s. farmers for example: we practice socialized farming here. Our government pays farmers so that they can sell their crops at a lower price than cheap Mexican farmers. Why does the government do this? Because farming states refuse to vote for anyone who will cut their welfare; it is politically impossible to get elected in this country if you do not support the farm bill. Same with Pharmaceutical companies: they’ve lobbied to pass laws against importing cheaper drugs from abroad, etc…

And the theory of free trade assumes that the countries we’re trading with are also practicing free trade. They’re not. China pegs the value of its currency to ours, so that as their manufacturing population grows and gets more money, that money doesn’t depreciate in value relative to ours and therefore the price for the goods they manufacture is artificially cheaper than those manufactured by us. AGAIN, TOTALLY ANTI-FREE TRADE.

Free trade is a horrible deal for Americans-how are you going to buy cheap foreign crap if you don’t have a job? It’s not even a good deal for poor countries since no country gets rich on free trade policies. The only people it works for are multinational corporations who benefit from cheap labor.

The U.S. became the greatest power in the world because of protectionist policies. Turning away from them is stupid and borderline treason.

Pitiful!!! PEE-TEE-FOOL!!!

somebody give that boy a bottle of Rheumatis medicine so he can go back to his fantasy world.

Merk,

Do you REALLY want to stand by your assertion that FDR’s policies and programs WORSENED the depression? I suggest you reread your history a little.

I’m ready to go there in detail if you are.

And there has NEVER been a free market in this country, or anywhere else for that matter. Markets have ALWAYS been regulated. And when the regulators let down their guard, the capitalists SCREW IT UP again.

I’m for MORE (read stricter/enforced) regulation, not less. Yes, the glory days will be no more but then there won’t be any more DEPRESSIONS like we’re going through now.

Capitalism and Communism are alike in one, common way: they are comprised of smoke and mirrors.

Humans require regulation and the ‘market’ is a human institution.

Word– Just stop now, please, before you start making everyone else dumber with your insipid comments. You’re the worst kind of the fool; the kind that speaks with vehemence and faux authority on a subject that you know nothing about.

You offered NO SOLUTIONS. You went on biased, and wrong, rants about the South, foreign car companies, and globalization, without offeral a substantial critique of any of them. The Sunbelt, i.e., the South is where the growth is and will be in the future…the population and manufacturing base has been trending there for years (just look up the exodus of New Yorkers to Florida). Check the standard of living in Cleveland or Detroit, and compare it to Miami or San Antonio, then try and trot our your ridiculous statement about standards of living.

Foreign Auto companies? They were smart enought to offer a better product at a more market compatable price, and allowed their workers the choice of being non union. Detroit’s auto problems are of its own making, mostly being enslaved to outrageous and outdated UAW concessions and decades of subpar product.

What is your problem with globalization? I guess you like widespread poverty and denying third world citizens a chance at a better life? Like it or not, in the interconnected information age, globalization cannot be undone, no more so than you can turn back time. There are many, many kinks to be worked out, but the benefits or more markets and more products (as Alex points out) outweigh the negatives. And if you are still ticked about it, BLAME LIBERALS. They invented and masterminded globalization via the Washington Consensus, using liberal institutions like the World Bank and IMF. Globalization is not a zero-sum game.

Dont blame Libertarians for this mess, espescially considering the incredibly lousy leftist track record on economies (still waiting for you to show where those policies have worked…oh, wait, the NEVER have). Alan Greenspan was about as libertarian as Che Guevara was bible-thumping conservative. Liberals calmly went along with perverted deregulation, they happily supported the dot com bubble, they happily went along with the housing bubble. Its amazing that you can feign righteous indignation when there was nary a peep from liberals when all of this was going on, but plenty from Libertarians, classical economic liberals, Realists, and others. YOU and YOUR ILK ARE THE ONES WHO ARE DISCREDITED. A mere glance at the economic ruins of the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, Sub-Saharan and North Africa, and parts of Asia (most notably Indonesia) more than denounce your ridiculous claims.

So please, Word, go back to the kiddie pool, and refrain from spouting off on a subject that you have absolutely no cogent thoughts on.

“Liberals are like locusts though, and it would not be a shocker to see them migrate to urban areas in the south to take advantage of the prosperity.”

How funny to hear you say that… What do you think these are;

http://www.you tube.com/watch?v=yLgwRUAKlWM

Not quite the swarm you might hope for, but it’s a staging point. The Good Earth anyone?

“If the Democrats hadn’t supported civil rights they’d have the entire south on their side right now as well as every single angry white man in the country.”

Hey Word, once again you show what dumbass you are. The democrats did not support civil rights. The civil rights amendment and the voting rights amendment passed because of Republican support. After it passed the dems decided they had to do something to keep the blacks in their place, so the created the welfare state and made them dependends.

Dennis– Most modern economists will admit as much. The US didnt fully exit the Depression until the total mobilization of WWII. Europe, specifically the Fascist states of Italy and Germany, emerged from the Depression by the mid 30s, as they had totally mobilized their economies via force and coercion. FDR put a lot of people to work in busybody jobs, but most of his “regulations” were aimed solely at big businesses at the expense of smaller businesses. So, while FDR was doing his best, and things turned out alright afterwards, hindsight has shed light on FDR’s supposedly “successful” policies…of course to suggest otherwise is sacrilege to most liberals. So I would suggest that YOU reread history as opposed to basking in the fake radiant glow liberals have bestowed upon Saint Roosevelt.

When government regulates least, note, not at all, is best. Government decisions are best for governing, and business decisions are best left to the market. Our biggest misteps have not come from business, but from the government overintrusion or malfeasance (i.e. the Smoot Hawley Tariff, federalizing Fannie and Freddie, creation of the Fed, etc). All economies go through growht and shrinking cycles; unfortunately, we get surprised every time a shrinking happens and overreact. We refuse to let businesses who run the risk fail, and instead turn them into public funded frankensteins which become wholly incapable of competing with a fix from the public weal. Conversely, businesses who are regulated least also have the least vested influence in influencing government. You know which as the smallest lobby on Capitol Hill? The Veterinary industry, as they are mostly free of government regulation. Baseline regulation is perfectly fine, but any more than such is counterproductive.

Word– Actually practiced free trade is not a bad thing. I will heartily agree that what we call free trade is just a sanctioning of monopolies that squashes any impetus of competition. That said, we should welcome jobs in other parts of the world, as it will reduce poverty, and as other states become wealthier, workers in those states will have the incentive to unionize.

Protectionist policies are novel, but they are about as relevant to our high tech, interconnected, cybernetic modern era as a horse and carriage on a jet runway, to paraphrase Saul Alinsky. The page has already been turned; with China, the European Union, India, and elswhere emerging as markets, protectionist policies will only serve to hasten our irrelevancy…go ahead shut us off from the flow of international trade…and watch the Chinese dump the dollar for the Euro so fast your head will spin. Another part of our problem is that we already are too protectionist. We have the highest business taxes in the world, and we wonder why businesses flee elsewhere to reap cheap labor…and yet protectionism is the answer? I’m all for actually following and fostering free trade with other nations, as it opens up markets for both policies, but returning us to the “good ol days” is not exactly feasible.

And the South does not have a dismal record, at least economics wise. Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, Texas, Tennesee, and Florida (the states in which the majority of the South resides) all have strong and vibrant economies, and with the exception of Florida, are doing relatively well despite the recession (espescially Texas). Again, given the choice between living in Miami, Wilmington, or El Paso as opposed to Detroit, Akron, Cleveland or Pittsburg, I’ll take the south anytime. The population seems to agree, as Texas and Florida are now the 2 and 4th most populous states respectively, and the South is slated to leave the recession first by top economists at Forbes, along with the Pacific Northwest.

So you might want to work on your hatred of the South, its just plain irrational. Perhaps jealosy driven by where you live? In any case, if you hate globalization so much, why are you a liberal? You guys, via the Washington Consensus policies of ISI, use of the World Bank and IMF are the ones who have fostered it.

Word– Btw, you’re completely wrong about the South not wanting protectionist policies…they clamored for them! The main focus of the South was protectionist policies against the British textile industry, and protectionist policies also kept an interest on relying on slave labor.

C’mon dude, at least read up on history before you shoot your mouth off…

Merk,

I’m not sure when you ‘converted’ to the Right, but you’ve been leaning that way a long time. Sad.

As for your FDR/Depression comments, you’re as full of sh*t as a Christmas Turkey. And it makes me DAMNED angry. READ, for Christ’s sake.

When FDR was elected, the business men BEGGED him to save them. BEGGED!! To SAVE them. And he began his famous programs.

And guess what, the economy started improving, LONG before WWII began. That would have been 1934 or so. And then guess what, all the businessmen who had begged him to save him turned on him and began fighting AND lobbying against his programs. The the Supreme Court, those paragons of imagination and sensitivity nullified his programs. Who cares that they were helping the country, they were technically unconstitutional, and debatable at that. The Warren Court would put those matters straight some twenty years later.

All you say is, like the Supremes of the time, ‘technically’ true, but is a Con misread of history that belittles FDR for the events. Yes, WWII did ‘bail out’ the country, but it did NOT bail out FDR, it bailed out the hypocritical, self-serving MFing business men who caused the original problem and then, when FDR was fixing it, caused a relapse.

And whilst I’m taking shots at your revisionist history, let me remind you that the U.S. Government is guilty of too LITTLE oversight in allowing depression/recessions to occur. And why is that? Because the very same greedy, SOB businessmen you so highly tout buy off Congress from time to time to water down regulations or to ease enforcement.

There is a cycle in this country and it goes by the name of reform. Reform emerges from time to time as a grass roots movement AGAINST the greed, selfishness and STUPIDITY exhibited by businessmen (corporations, the market, professional groups, etc.). At some point, the ‘people’ become fed up with the BS they see and take matters in their own hands. The Cons should be careful, this organized hate attack on Obama might be just enough to stir up another era of reform.

Please Merk, return to the Libertine you once seemed to be. In the guise of a Con, you are resorting to Con BS. Maybe the kids at the corner will buy your revisionist history, but there are some of us who have actually read about the events you cited. And I don’t mean high school history texts.

What a crock.

Dennis– I’ve not converted to the right, I’ve simply been more critical of liberal sacred cows as of late. I’m still the same cranky Libertine of old.
Of course big businesses cried out to Roosevelt. They realized an easy out when they saw one; they were kept them afloat, as opposed to being broken up, and s.old off as they would have been in previous eras. The government as a useful cudgel in beating off smaller competitors, using the guise of the National Recovery Administration, to write their own rules and regulations. Clarence Darrow states as much: ‘In Industry after Industry, the larger unites have for their own advantage written the codes.’ Of course they screamed for Roosevelt; he was a business deal waiting to happen.
Businessmen were not the root of the Depression either, though they certainly helped. The main causes were the economy killing protectionist measures enacted through the Smoot Hawley Tariff when major European economies were defaulting on their war rep.ayments, which is what banks were using to fund the economy. The Depression started not on W.all Street, but when the Weimar Republic collapsed economically, defaulted on its war loans, and started a chain reaction; all of a sudden in 1929 the capital funding the bubble was suddenly recalled, and down the whole system went. We gambled by basically making Germany an indentured servant state to the victorious powers, a system that was simply not feasible given the wrecked state of its economy. The problem is, the GOVERNMENT ENCOURAGED THIS PRACTICE. Business just went along for the ride, after all, they were promised a killing in German war reparations, and they got Roaring 20s until the bottom fell out.

Again, any modern economist will agree that some FDR’s policies prolonged the depression, especially during the mini crash of 37-38 when industrial production halved. This is commonly accepted.

So, the only one slinging revisionist history is YOU and YOUR ilk, Dennis. You apparently can say anything you want, but dont attack the Right’s Saint Reagan, and never, ever question the effectiveness of the Left’s Saint Roosevelt the Infallible. And you accuse me of revisionism? YOU might want to reread history. Not to say that he wasnt a good president, or he didnt believe in what he was doing, but a bit more objective view has to be used. This isn’t even a particularly Con criticism, who call FDR a fa.s.cist or a so.cia.list, which is ridiculous. But simply being mildly critical, and saying that his policies prolonged the Depression is hardly novel or radical.

Truth, Dennis, is all that matters. Even those things most comfortable, like the lefts anoiting of FDR, have to hold up under the truth….But you are fully within your right to believe that FDR descended from above, was made man, and was blameless…that does not make it true.

Jed Clampett

You’re trying to convince someone who has a vested interest in not understanding the truth, under those conditions, and with their ‘way of life’ exposed and threatened with extinction, they will never understand that what they support is unnatural, out of phase with the natural ways, retarded.

It has learned all the indoctrination and internalized it, it cannot deviate from this pseudo-knowledge because it would mean recognizing what it’s been trying for so long to ignore… the reflection of a vampire, a parasite, in the mirror.

It thinks it has truth within to spread to others, when all it rally does is forcefully and stubbornly keep beating an old drum that by now barely has any skin to it and the noise it makes isn’t even rhythmic, yet it is deafened by the echoes within the space between it’s ears and will never allo himself to hear what is without. It’s main processing unit has a serious virus that prevents it from recognizing what it’s primary sensors are telling it.

Remember what Gore said in his presentation on the destructionof the climate… (I paraphrase)’you cannot get someone to recognize something when his fortunes depend on them ignoring it’… much like many in congress who are blinded by the money tossed at them, which blinds them to the damage they do to their compatriots, they don’t even recognize that what they are stricken by is the dis-ease called greed; a very dangerous and all consuming illness that spreads quickly to others, infecting them and causing them to also damage the well being of their cousins, brothers, friends and everyone else in the extended global family.

Peace, it will never come forth from the internally conflicted, they must be expelled from positions of influence.

Merk,

You see the history YOU want to see and I see the history ‘I’ want to see. And ne’er the twain shall meet.

Saint FDR? Hardly. No more than ‘Saint Ronnie.’ FDR was highly flawed but a master politician and an inspirational leader. We were DAMNED lucky to have him at the time. But I like TR more.

I’ve noted your ‘points’ and will be doing some research this Winter. I’ll be back with names, NOT resorting to such slacks as ‘most economists.’ And I can tell you that I’ll be focusing on the Wall Street crash as the result more of speculation than anything happening in Germany.

More to come. Right now, there’s much to do outdoors before the first wintry blasts arrive.

Dennis– I would disagree, I believe our history is one and the same, we’re simply looking at the same monument from different angles.

I will agree I was perhaps too harsh on FDR, as the man was doing what he thought was right for the times, and several programs he enacted (TVA, the CCC, and others) were huge successes. The problem is, they can be overshadowed by the hundreds of other programs that in hindsight didnt turn out as well. I tend to believe that FDR was a much better visionary and world minded leader than he was at detailed specifics.

As for “most economists,” look for anything involving the views of the Austrian School, The New Classical Approach, the Dawes Plan, the restrictive confines of the Gold Standard (which really plagued Great Britain)…all of which offer pretty good insights to what caused the Depression. While I lean most on the counterintuitive effects of the cancelation of the Dawes Plan (as well as its general enactment in the first place) while enacting the Smoot Hawley Tariff at the same time, all of these different schools of thought and events probably factor in, in some way.

Happy hunting throughout history, may it be a fascinating journey.

Merk,

I would rather refer to historians than economists, if it’s all the same.

FDR was a man of action. I don’t believe he thought he had the answers. But he was willing to try anything.

And for the record, Coach WAS right when he chastised you for being more vocal now than when Bush was Prez. You may not see it, but we do. In fact, your defense (you ‘disagreed’ with Bush) tells it all. You disagreed and the only time you ever pointed that out was when someone challenged you: then and now.

But you’re actively opposed to Obama’s actions. Yes, he’s created a monumental debt but he inherited a mess of biblical proportions and drastic measures were required. I have no doubt that there were those among his advisers that championed your exact position, but in weighing all the pros and cons, he made his call. I have a feeling that if you had all the information/intelligence in hand that he had, you would have reached the same conclusion.

You would like to see the market ‘fix’ itself. I wonder, in the list of all the economists and theories you cited, can you also cite an example where, in the face of overwhelming recession, etc., the market ‘fixed’ itself?

For the record, I ‘disagree’ with Obama’s Afghan policy and I don’t think now was a very good time to tackle health care reform. But it’s his show and he deserves a little more respect than being currently accorded him.

Lord knows we went along with Bushney for the longest. But after a couple of years, forget it.

Dennis– In terms of where the economy has “fixed” itself, I suppose one would have to go back to the Panic eras of the 19th Century. As to whether that would work in a modern context, who knows? It has the benefit of never having been tried in a modern context…I think the era we ought to imitate is the Teddy Roosevelt era, in which we had minimal, but sensible regulation, and the country prospered.

With all due respect however, I would offer it is not that I am any more strident or critical of Obama, its that you (Yourself, Coach, et al) are less critical. I seem to remember us both being incredibly critical of Bush’s foreign policy, disrespect of civil liberties, his mismanagement of government and the like, though our solutions to said problems likely differed. In that sense, we were united under the aegis of being against Bush, forcing Cco, Dr. Ralph, and others into a defensive position, as they supported the then current power structure.

Now that paradigm has shifted the other way around. You all got what you wanted, the man you voted for (presumably) is enacting the policies you voted him in (presumably) to enact. You all have become the new Cco, Dr. Ralph, in that you’ve become less critical, as its someone you support, and we are now on opposing sides of the spectrum in terms of beliefs. I disagree with Obama’s policies, you support them. We no longer have the lingua franca of a common disgust with the power structure, as you and your ilk now control it. Were McCain in the Whitehouse it would be like old times, everyone united by the fact that they disliked his policies.

So, if one would logically invert your claim, perhaps it is not I who is being more critical, you all who are being less critical, as you now have a vested interest in being less critical of someone whom you support. I have no such allegiance to his policies, therefore, I’m not obligated to defend them, same as with Bush. Besides, if you all have evidence to the contrary, please produce it. Otherwise its just all of us telling anecdotes to one another, with the truth floating around somewhere in the ether…

Dennis– In terms of where the economy has “fixed” itself, I suppose one would have to go back to the Panic eras of the 19th Century. As to whether that would work in a modern context, who knows? It has the benefit of never having been tried in a modern context…I think the era we ought to imitate is the Teddy Roosevelt era, in which we had minimal, but sensible regulation, and the country prospered.
With all due respect however, I would offer it is not that I am any more strident or critical of Obama, its that you (Yourself, Coach, et al) are less critical. I seem to remember us both being incredibly critical of Bush’s foreign policy, disrespect of civil liberties, his mismanagement of government and the like, though our solutions to said problems likely differed. In that sense, we were united under the aegis of being against Bush, forcing Cco, Dr. Ralph, and others into a defensive position, as they supported the then current power structure.
Now that paradigm has shifted the other way around. You all got what you wanted, the man you voted for (presumably) is enacting the policies you voted him in (presumably) to enact. You all have become the new Cco, Dr. Ralph, in that you’ve become less critical, as its someone you support, and we are now on opposing sides of the spectrum in terms of beliefs. I disagree with Obama’s policies, you support them. We no longer have the lingua franca of a common disgust with the power structure, as you and your ilk now control it. Were McCain in the Whitehouse it would be like old times, everyone united by the fact that they disliked his policies. But since the people you all support now control the ballgame, they are now the status quo, and thus, are what people who disagree with these positions are going to be squaring off against, as opposed to agreeing.
So, if one would logically invert your claim, perhaps it is not I who is being more critical, you all who are being less critical, as you now have a vested interest in being less critical of someone whom you support. I have no such allegiance to his policies, therefore, I’m not obligated to defend them, same as with Bush. Besides, if you all have evidence to the contrary, please produce it. Otherwise its just all of us telling anecdotes to one another, with the truth floating around somewhere in the ether…

Merk,

You’re right, we ARE being less critical. Like I said, it’s a BIG mess and he’s only been there a little while. And like I said, I do NOT agree about Afghanistan and pushing health care reform, but I DO support him in his attempts to ‘fix’ the economy.

If someone starts, herein, to defend our Afghan/Iraq policy (and I’ve seen NOTHING like that) then I will weigh in on the argument.

And he sure is taking enough irrational heat/hate on the medical program such that my concerns stand out as ringing endorsements.

I believe the Left gave Georgie Porgie a LOT more slack in the early days. EVERYone knew he wanted war and said as much. But our voices were drowned out by the beat of ‘patriotism’ (read jingoism) and misplaced righteous indignation.

That would be War, Merk. What is it, seven years now? A war that as much as anything else led to the financial collapse we’re now experiencing. War, Merk. Hell on earth. Visited on a people who had NO quarrel with this country. A war that, sadly, continues to this day and continues to deplete our resources, resources that could FAR better be used in putting the economy right.

It is one of your inalienable rights to so disagree. If more folks had disagreed with Bush, as Coach said, VOCALLY, then perhaps none of this would have happened, but I doubt it. The universe is unfolding as it should.

That said, there are hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq and Afghanistan, millions homeless leaving behind a wasteland. And for what? So you can argue about how many angels fit on a pin head?

This country will NOT fail. It CAN not. It may get knocked to its knees, but there are too many good people and too many natural resources for it to stay down for long. This country has been abused and ill-used by Formad, history will record them the honor of being the biggest blot on the middle of the Declaration of Independence AND the U.S. Constitution. We can only hope that in the next life, ‘things’ balance out and they ‘get’ as good as they ‘gave.’ One can hope.

But it is folly to blame the man repairing the roof in the middle of a rainstorm because the previous repairman (Haliburton?) took the money and ran doing NO repairs. Not all roofers are created equal.

The quantity and volume of your displeasure with the current roofer leads one, naturally, to wonder if more than mere economic philosophy is driving you.

Dennis– Since the current prez is the product, and has a very vested interest in, the very same system that produced rainstorm as you so eruditely put it, and is pursuing policies that created it, then, perhaps it is not such a folly eh? You’re making the misguided assumption that the current administration is any different than ones we’ve had before. You’ve put it perfectly; we were fooled by Bush, never again. But, I’m curious…what do you think my criticism is actually based on? I guess I should remain silent like a good little drone, just like during the Bushie years?

As for the quantity, ALL we’ve had on this board for the past several months have been on Obama’s economics, which I, and several million other economically minded people, have serious problems with. I didnt support the policies six months, or six years ago, so why would I support them now?

As for your ruminations on the war, you’re absolutely right…but I’m mistaken, when, if ever did I champion either of them? I’m certainly no fan of the “pull out immediately” style of thought as it creates more problems than it solves, but I’ve never said that either venture, save perhaps initial efforts in Afghanistan, were particularly warranted. We’ve experienced classic symptoms of such warfare; we entered into a Dutch Disease style currency devaluement before the crash, which was directly correlated to our efforts in the ME. That said, we cant just leave, or we go back beyond step one. We’ve got to unFUBAR everything the previous boys FUBAR’d…we owe that to the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as to our own strategic interests.

I dont want this country to fail either, but one also has to be realistic…at a time when we’re this cash strapped and looking at inflation, is spending a bunch of money on a health care system that we might not really need, with money we dont have, whilst fighting two wars, strikes me as incredibly risky. Good people or not, we’re monetizing our debt as never before…and this has only had dire consequences in the past.

Jed Clampett

Wow, it’s funny to hear you agree with me after the fact for the completely opposite reason.

“we entered into a Dutch Disease style currency devaluement before the crash, which was directly correlated to our efforts in the ME.”
I can remember when I was saying just that in May 08 you were saying the dollar would never be devalued…. yada yada.
So, are you that easily switched out of your underwear or do you stay the course for weeks pn that?

Jed– Do you have specifics, maybe? You can say you remembered anything, without a specific post, who would know?

Remember that time Jed, I can remember , in May of 08, that you said that Bush was standup prez, and that you supported everything he did, and that he was destined to go down as a the greatest american ever? Must’ve happened, because I said so, despite no supporting evidence, right?

I also remember that time where you just made stuff up, and put words in other peoples mouths…I guess you’re pretty much stay the course in area yourself, right?

“I dont want this country to fail either, but..”

Pay attention kiddies, this is the way of the internally conflicted.

It’s like trying to have a conversation with an angry 13 yo that thinks he knows it all. When you recognize where all it’s tactics come from, it’s better to not give him any attention, just be aware of them because they can be dangerous, like a monkey with a double edged blade. Just recognize that it’s intent is to sling excrement at everything around it’s cage that it doesn’t understand or considers a threat.

Merk,

You’re right, I DO this this administration is different, misguided as that opinion may be. In fact, I KNOW it’s different, at least at the top; I sincerely hope the difference, if you will, makes a difference.

In the final analysis, as we both know, politicians are all pretty much the same; just like humans are all pretty much the same. They are a species unto themselves and the survival instinct runs strong. But not all are US Grant just as not all are Abe Lincoln.

I trust you don’t fault me for hoping that Mr. Obama shades towards the latter more than the former.

PS Elsewhere you referenced, among others, De Tocqueville. I hope you recall that he opined that in a ‘democracy’ (my word, he may have couched it some), “people get the government they deserve.”

In snooping around looking for ’stuff’ on the rich, I ran across something to the effect that over half the people in this country don’t know who the VP is.

“I have seen the enemy and it is us,” Pogo.

Okay, I was a teensy, weensy, little bit off. Here’s the more accurate version, still disquieting:

According to a Pew Research Center survey released last week, 31% of Americans don’t know who the vice president is, fewer than half are aware that Nancy Pelosi is the speaker of the House, a mere 29% can identify “Scooter” Libby as the convicted former chief of staff of the vice president, and only 15% can name Harry Reid when asked who is the Senate majority leader.

In 1987, 45% of adult respondents to one survey answered that the phrase “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” was in the Constitution (in fact, it’s a quote from Karl Marx). Then, in 1991, an American Bar Assn. study reported that a third of Americans did not know what the Bill of Rights was.

Perhaps education reform is more in order than healthcare. But I suppose, first things first.

On the former, I give you T Jefferson, NOT one of my favorites but one who often said the right thing, often, too, doing the opposite.

Of all the views of this law [for public education], none is more important, none more legitimate, than that of rendering the people safe as they are the ultimate guardians of their own liberty.
—Notes on Virginia, 1782.

If the children are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences than it would have done in their correction by a good education.
— to Joseph C. Cabell, 1818.

I see this last comment presaging the elections of Reagan and Bushes.

nobody saw me do it.
It never happened.
You can’t prove it.
Kiss my butt, man!

How interesting, the Bart SimpSon technique, I guess it works both ways; to hide behind and taint others. It’s easy to use when the intended audience and the speaker have selective memory.

Jed’s been ahead of the curve time and time again… In this case much further back than most would imagine.

http://www.rollingstone.com /nationalaffairs/index.php/200 7/11/08/the-upside-our-down-n- out-dollar/

What, you ask for evidence, it is presented to you and then you ignore it and avoid it? No wonder you are destroying the nation and the planet, you simply refuse to accept what is before you, the evidence, truth, light of varying extremes.

Anonymous (Jed?)– What evidence? The link provided had nothing to do with any of my posts, thus it refutes Jed’s claim of me saying “the dollar would never be devalued”

In order for me to have avoided or ignored “evidence,” such evidence has to be provided in order for that to happen. It is impossible to refute or sustain that which cannot be proven.

So nice try, but the jury is still out…half-baked platitudes and warmed over psuedo-mystical sayings do not a concrete argument make. So, either present evidence supporting your claims, or admit the falsehood of them.

Of course, I forgot you are willfully ignorant and blind.

Looks like Jed has you figured out to the millimeter, why don’t you just go fellate your trilogy of idols, Which one will you kneel in front of first, Breck, Limpbutt or O’rile’ey?