But, isn’t that what the republicans are saying about a gov’t sponsored health care system? That beaureaucrats will deny care? Wait, you mean that already happens? Gee, imagine that.

Ask the French how much they hate, er, love their single-payer system.

Health ‘care’ should be a right, not a privelege.

No health care system in the world gives 100% coverage. Medicare, Medical, the U.S. military health system and the U.S. prison health system will not really give 100% coverage. If you need a specific doctor, test or treatment (including specific drugs) you maybe denied under those system.

Some countries that tout universal coverage deny aid to the gravely ill where most of the health care costs go. They cut off care for the same reason private companies cut care, to keep costs at a manageable level.

The GAO already said to insure that 47 million would really cost $4 trillion over the next 10 years, but that isn’t all.

By 2050, Medicare and Medicaid will each equal, in percentage, the amount the federal government would spend to keep itself running (which already pays for Medicare and Medicaid). So if you made $40,000 a year in today’s money and pay federal government $4,000 a year in taxes, by 2050, you would be paying $12,000 a year just to keep the federal government, Medicare and Medicaid running. Then there is Social Security (another $2,000 more a year), the other amount for universal health care, cap and trade and of course state and local taxes. The tax rage would have hit long before 2050 and cost would be cut including throwing out the very ill, the same ill people that the private companies are willing to throw out.

No system is perfect, but no other developed country will deny medical treatment for a citizen diagnosed with cancer.

Greg, you’re attacking a straw man. Countries that say they have universal healthcare mean that everyone has health insurance.

As you say, no health insurance will cover every possible medical or pharmaceutical intervention. Liposuction is never going to be covered, for example. Private health insurance policies are notorious for denying care, it’s in their interest to do so because every dollar they save on patient care is money in the shareholders’ pockets.

Greg, you think a $40,000/year job today will be the same $40 grand in 2050?

You say taxes will increase without mentioning that so will wages………

Stay away from the Fake News Channel for a while and you’ll hear different numbers.

I said in today’s dollars. So the percentages would be the same. I was translating from GNP. The federal government is about equal to 20% of the GNP. By 2050, Medicare and Mediaid would each consume about 20% of the nation’s GNP. Social Security would consume about 10% of the GNP by 2050. So that’s 70% of the GNP being consumed in entitlements that already exist. Add in more health care, state and local taxes, cap and trade and there wouldn’t be left for stuff like housing and food. To keep that from happening, costs will be cut and patients with expensive problems would be dumped.

Those offering Universal Health Care only offer it up to a point including not helping those with terminal cancer or those with AIDS. After a patient reaches acertain age they stop with surgeries. Those that would do better with a more expensive medicine don’t get that medicine through universal health insurance. Tim’s complaint is patient dumping by private insurance, but government run insurance is no better.

To make matters worse, the U.S. funds most of the world’s medical R&D and many countries. To control costs the countries really cut back on their R&D and have the U.S. just make the stuff. The U.S. would also cut back on medical R&D as it goes to generics to cut costs. Medical companies that can’t compete in the bidding wars would just cease to exist. Not producing the treatments to help people would be another form of dumping really ill patients.

Jed Clampett

It’s a sham, nothing more than giving pharmaceutical companies a way into your wallet and to steal your value. Read ‘the cancer cure that worked’ and how it was suppressed and it’s inventor oppressed.

Here’s another one, ‘cash for clunkers’, $3000 to help people with old cars buy a new one. In other words, make them indebted to the car companies that just got a big chunk of our money and went bankrupt anyway. That’s because the people running them are morally bankrupt and will screw up anything they touch, regardless of how many million you pay them.
Much cheaper would be to convert the engines to run on hydrogen or gasoline vapors.

Just like ethanol additives are a sham. $80 dollars in extra parts ans programming costs you a bundle in a new vehicle. And if you buy old gasoline that has attracted water, it will muck up your engine, eat up rubber seals and maybe even the rings. Caching, caching!!! now they got you for extra cash for repairs.
BuilderBergers will make burgers out of all of us, isn’t it time we stopped feeding the hoggs? Let them fail in their corpotocratic endeavors.

http://www.evinrude-parts .com/boat_ethanol_danger_preca ution.html

the us rations healthcare by income-and the only winners in the system are the insurers. ask any doctor or nurse and they will tell you single payer is the only way to rationalize the system so everyone can get needed care and nobody gets UNneeded care to pad a hospital bill or out of ignorance of what actually works. we all need to be in one system so we can collect the data to find out what works! and to prevent cost-shifting.

Dear Bubba,

The key word there is “should”, BTW what else “should” we have a right to, perhaps food, televisions, and rock magazines?

Also, it’s not the fact that $40,000 a year in 2050 will not be the same after inflation, it’s that the percentage of your income paid in taxes will increase. Bless Your Heart

Stay away from NBC, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, Time, Newsweek, The New York Times, LA Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Sun-Times, Atlanta Journal Constitution, Miami Herald, The Associated Press, Jon Lebowitz aka Jon Stewart and other assorted STATE-RUN MEDIA for a while and you may be able to get past the propaganda and learn something.

Dear Brainspore,

Except Great Britain, see women with breast cancer.

Jed Clampett

It’s a sham, nothing more than giving phar.ma.ceut.ical companies a way into our wallets and to steal our value.
They are vertically integrated and control all pieces of the system, a single point of failure and ripe for a huge fall.

Read ‘the can.cer cure that worked’ how it was suppressed and it’s inventor oppressed.

Then read Georges Lakhovsky’s ’secret of life’ to understand the nature of dis-ease. He also wrote a book called ‘the cabal’ but it’s only in french, it’s about how the medicine and medical equipment industry kept his information from becoming ubiquitous… I guess I’ll look for it on amazon France, need to relearn my french anyway.

There’s plenty of reasons to be mad at insurance companies. The healthcare debate, however, is about the private sector as a whole. The (legitimate) danger is that the quality of healthcare will decline if you put in the hands of the government. It isn’t about who “deserves” what, it’s about who can produce a system to keep the most people healthy. Certainly such a story isn’t the rule, and the majority of Americans are satisfied with their current healthcare. What needs to change comes don’t to fixing holes in the system that a minority of people fall through. Anecdotes such as this, while sad (if true), deflect from the debate as a whole.

“The (legitimate) danger is that the quality of healthcare will decline if you put in the hands of the government.”

Why does it work so well for public officials, armed services, france, etc, etc……..

The propoganda about inefficient gov’t health care is exactly that: propoganda designed to drive a wedge between the voting public.

Why is it that so many people can bad mouth something that they’ve never even used. Or, better yet, how is it congressmen get away with badmouthing single-payer health when that’s exactly what they have….?

Jed Clampett

the only one’s scared of gov run healthcare are the fat cats and aristocrats that have used the system like a personal piggy bank and source of the next villa and Mercedes. Look at how much money those people sitting on the executive boards and directorships of those heal care management corporations and you might understand how much money is being yanked out of the system by denying people appropriate care. And after all the wasteful practices and stupid tests that evidently are unnecessary, it’s us who have to pay more and more while the bottom feeders at the top make it cheaper and cheaper for themselves.

Jed Clampett

Plasma boy shows us that the naysayers of electric mobility are as wrong as the affordable health care deniers and human caused global warming denier.
Let’s keep tossing the lies out.

http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg /videos/view/56-Electric-Drag- Racing

Clampett, when is the FDA going to put carbon emissions in the same category as second-hand smoke? That may be the ticket…….

No guys. Take a look at the quality of care in Canada or England. Cheaper? Yes. Longer waiting? Also yes. Quality of medical technology? Not the same. When you destroy the private sector, so goes the rate of medical innovation. Oh, and how well do you think the government is going to manage your well-being? They’re doing a great job with social security…

Jed Clampett

bub, when the people decide they’ve had enough and aren’t going to take it anymore.
All those creatures understand is money, and anything that threatens their control of it they will oppose or eventually submit to when they realize they may loose it all.
So, if the people show their disgust and their willingness to take back their value, to devalue all the money they’ve surreptitiously and ill.legally taken from the rest of us, they will change or perish.
When faced with having to work for themselves, most of them are too weak and ill to do it. They will starve, as rightly they should and do to themselves and us.

“Give onto Cesar what belongs to Cesar”, the people must take back what belongs to them. Let them keep their paper notes and us take our value, our efforts and work back.
If no one goes to work for a day, it hurts their bottom line; if no one goes to work for three days, it shakes their foundations; when no one goes to work for a week, it starts to bring down empires.
It’s a game of cat and mouse, or mouse and ‘Valkyries disguised as Eagles’.

When I arrived on the (E)State’s shores, black light posters were very popular. There was one of a mouse giving an Eagle half a peace sign. Remember the caption?

I have always known that an Eagle was representative of the highest state of being in the animal kingdom, the greatest representation of spirit on Earth. But like many other things that have been turned on it’s head, the Nazi’s used it as their symbol of destruction, just like they inverted the Swastika which was a symbol for life.

In the movie DEFIANCE, we are shown how true survivors and children of Earth should behave.
With honor, strength and conviction, but most of all, devotion to each other. Not to allow vultures to do the things that the enemy would do among them.

DEFIANCE in the face of danger and aggression is the key.

Bubba,

Have you ever heard of the VA, do some research about their healthcare and get back to me.

Also, Clampett, when is the FDA going to put carbon emissions in the same category as second-hand smoke? That may be the ticket…….

Perhaps if you would quit breathing (emitting CO2) the planet will begin to cool.

P.S. Are those news sources (STATE-RUN MEDIA) a form of propaganda? Of course it is that is why you won’t address it

Jed Clampett

So, I’m sitting here having to tear down the motor on my weed eater. Seems that the alcohol, corno-hol, they put in the fuel eats up the seals, paper, rubber pieces and everything not METAL.
So who do I sue for the wasted time and damage done to my equipment? Those who kept the people of Valdez waiting for justice for over 20 years and still obfuscate truth and justice? How about that, now they have to pay with interests? But they blame the corporation in order to absolve the people who lead it? HMMM?!?!

Who do I sue because it is doing the same damage to my body by having to breathe in the fumes, the pollution in the air?
Who do I sue for the damage their product is causing to my planet? Which is exactly the same damage it causes my little weed eater engine and my lungs?

Who will pay for their greed and unconscious acts?

WE ALL WILL IF WE DON’T WAKE UP NOW AND STOP THEIR MADNESS!!!

What is the punishment for ignoring the ‘prime directive’? The prime directive is do no harm, be conscious of how your actions affect others.

How will this connection within the web affect the health care system? Lung cancer for any of you non smokers? Maybe it is a health care issue.

So take out of the system those that don’t care.

Jed Clampett

So, I’m sitting here having to tear down the motor on my we.ed eater. Seems that the alcohol, cor.no-hol, they put in the fuel eats up the seals, paper, rub.ber pieces and everything not METAL.
So who do I sue for the wasted time and damage done to my equipment? Those who kept the people of Valdez waiting for justice for over 20 years and still obfuscate truth and justice? Is the corporation responsible and has to pay, while the PEOPLE who did it are absolved and get to keep their ill.gotten wealth? HMMM?!?!

Who do I sue because it is doing the same damage to my body by having to breathe in the fumes, the pollution in the air?
Who do I sue for the damage their product is causing to my planet? Which is exactly the same damage it causes my little we.ed eater engine and my lungs? How long will justice be denied now? Who will pay for their greed and un.conscious acts?

WE ALL WILL IF WE DON’T WAKE UP NOW AND STOP THEIR MADNESS!!!

What is the punishment for ignoring the ‘prime directive’? The prime directive is do no harm, be con.scious of how your actions affect others.
How will this connection within the web affect the health care system? Do any of you non smokers want some lung can.cer? Maybe IT IS a health care issue.

So take out of the system those that don’t care about our health.

CCo, Canada and England both live longer than we do. Is that because of their health care? Who knows. Or, does the amount of gun deaths in this country even things out?

Either way, you’re demeaning government care, when that’s exactly what our top legislators, supreme court justices, brave military men, and the rest of our public officials get: Government health care.

Competition in the marketplace, even if it’s a ‘generic’ version run by the gov’t, will spurn even MORE innovation.

Tell the guys at NASA that a gov’t run operation stifles innovation………

Jed, you could’ve just used a weed killer with the many thousands of harmful chemicals…….

Jed Clampett

I guess If I was ignorant and didn’t care about living thing’s position and purpose in the web I could be a putz and go around killing things I don’t understand. In the process I would make the OIL barons that turn the blood of the Earth into poison and then pour it over the land in many forms, unconscious of how this affects the health of the planet and in essence my own health.

But then again, I’m just an old fart in a whirlwind.

Jed Clampett

Could have… If I was ignorant and didn’t care about living thing’s position and purpose in the web, I could be a putz and go around killing things I don’t understand. In the process I would make the OIL BARONS that turn the blood of the Earth into poison and then pour it over the land in many forms, un.con.scious of how this affects the health of the planet and in essence my own health.

But then again, I’m just an old fa.rt in a whirlwind.

Jed Clampett

Hmmm, my eyes aren’t what they used to be… make the barons wealthier… as you know by now, not something I want to do.

Dear Jed,

Are you speaking of the same OIL BARONS Barack Obama BOWS to?

A hundred percent coverage means a basic package for every person.

Obama’s plan called for a government administered health option. There’s no reason that people who want more or better coverage couldn’t buy add-ons. That’s how it works in Canada. I grew up in Canada and I can categorically say that the system works great–for everyday stuff as well as serious health crises. National healthcare includes AIDS, cancer, psychiatric illnesses, organ transplants, neonatology, OB-GYN, the whole bit. I go home for healthcare because it’s so much better than anything I can afford in the U.S. system. You can pick your doctor. Your doctor doesn’t have to run interference between you and the insurance company.

Whatever you mean by 100% coverage is a fairy tale and not even worth talking about.

So you complain about health companies not paying for things….. you think the government will do any better? they will be able to decide whether or not your DESERVE treatment. In the UK, they’ll deny you hip-replacement if you’re obese, heart medication if you smoke…etc.

and another thing, we already have free healthcare in this country. Just go to an ER and they HAVE to help you. Don’t believe me? Go spend a few hours there (like I did, my mother-in-law broke her arm last week.) You’ll be amazed.

Get out of the blogosphere or idea-sphere and see what happens in the real world.

Jeff, where do you think the bill goes when you go to the emergency room? You act as though it’s free. Sure, their hypocratic oath impels them to treat you. But, you still have to pay a hugely extravagant price.

On the one hand you admit that private practice already denys care to people. But, on the other hand you demean any competition in the marketplace.

If you don’t want to participate in the public option, then don’t. But, why deny it?

One way to think of it is this: Generic health care.

Maybe YOU should get off the blogosphere, go to the UK, get hurt, and find out for yourself if you’re denied treatment……..otherwise you’re just spreading the same stupid propoganda that O’Reilly and Limpuke spread.

“In the UK, they’ll deny you hip-replacement if you’re obese, heart medication if you smoke…etc.”

Call me cold, but that is a good idea. If you are not willing to change your ways to keep from being sick, then why should the doctors bother trying to take care of you. The doctors are there to make you better not to enable your self-destructive behaviors. As a result, there are fewer over weight people and smokers. I say we are overdue for a government run health system.

Jed Clampett

was he bowing or being polite?

Was he ki$$ing him like a long lo$t brother and holding hand$s like lover$?

Hmmm?!?!

Is there a moderator on this blog or does this Jed guy just get to run rampant spouting mean spirited babble? An annoying distraction to say the least. I am surprised looking back at so many old posts that RS is allowing
their brand to be coopted by some doofus.

This is a great example of what’s happening, on a bigger scale, on the right with Rush. One loud mouth has befome the mouthpiece for a much broader perspective. This is something we should be aware of in our own forums.

Jed Clampett

Funny, if you only knew how much is censored… oh well.

Battle of Dunkirk, now there’s a story for ya!! BusKirk?? Is that a combination of Bush and Dunkirk?

You should really listen to Buskirk, he knows hate, probably steeped in the light as well.

Coach,
Look, call it public, call it private, I just want to keep my ability to consult with a physician of my choice and choose my own treatment. I do not want the govt deciding whether or not I deserve treatment, if I’m willing to pay for it (via my current healthplan).

Why should my choices suffer because others can’t afford the monthly premium?

You might say that I can keep my plan, but you know, you KNOW, YOU KNOW people will still cry “unfair!!” that my coverage is different/better than the “free” plan, so eventually my care will erode.

and my two examples were not just ‘propaganda’. Google the phrase “healthcare denied UK” or any other country and see the results.

I’m not saying that there isn’t anything wrong with our current systems, and insurance companies definitely have too much power. But the idea that universal healthcare will solve the problems is a myth. Poor/low-income people will still not have access to the top-level doctors or treatments, medications will still cost money, etc…. Can you honestly tell me that the government will run the industry better?
Go to your local DMV… call the Social Security office… try and get VA benefits started for your Dad…
How did the government do managing the mortgage industry? Again, I’m not saying these industries were perfect, but the govt isn’t the solution.

Jeff,

I’m not sure what insurance plan you use, but you might want to read it a little more closely. After a certain number of days in the hospital, they stop paying. (Why do you think the Aflac Duck is so popular?) Certain ‘controversial’ treatments, they don’t cover.

YOU don’t pick what you want, the insurance company has to approve it.

They even ‘approve’ the physicians.

Jed Clampett

Keep your ‘physicians’, we’ll choose healers. I merely hope we have a choice… let’s see who heals quicker.

Jeff, you’re purely ‘assuming’ that your coverage will erode. Has UPS eroded because of the USPS, or Fedex? Has your current health plan ‘eroded’ because of medicare and medicaid? Or SCHIP?

Gov’t sponsored health isn’t for you, obviously Jeff. But, it’s good enough for our brave military men, our elite senators/congressmen, and it’s good enough for MANY industrialized nations that have been around a lot longer than us.

Again—I’m not saying the current system is perfect, and I have no doubt that my insurance company is continuously trying to find new ways to screw me, but, in my opinion and based off of other govt agencies, the govt is not the answer.
Yes, the insurance company does ‘choose’ physicians that they will work with, but there are more than one to choose from within the plan.
No organization, public or private, is looking out for my well-being. They’re all in it for themselves,–private companies want more profit, public (read: govt) want more control and dependence on them, thereby keeping themselves in power…and the money flowing from the lobbyists.

Jeff: “based off of other govt agencies, the govt is not the answer.”

What other government agencies are you referring to? Or, are you just referring to the urban legend that government is bad?

Jeff, you’re obviously not talking about the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, National Guard, Pentagon, CIA, FBI, police, highway patrol, firefighters, etc….when you talk about ‘other gov’t agencies’, are you?

Bubba– look 5 posts below yours..
I forgot to mention A BIG government agency that apparently wasn’t worth anything when it came to solving the problems it was created to solve…
F
E
M
A

You want “Brownie,” or someone like him, in charge of healthcare? You want to create another massive bureaucracy?

How about Hillary…she was a nurse, er, doctor, er, hospital administr.,er…oh wait, she’s another career politician. Teddy K? Certainly he spent years as a Fellow at Johns Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic… oh wait, he’s another lifelong politician that had nothing to bring to an office other than his last name.

Look beyond your party affiliation for answers.

Jeff, as long as Brownie isn’t running the blood tests, or performing the operation, or setting the broken bone, why should I care who’s in charge?

Remember, it’s not politicians performing the duty of health care. It’s good, old fashioned, doctors. And, if a gov’t doctor is good enough for the military, congress, the president, pentagon, etc, etc, then why isn’t it good enough for me?

Not sure why I’m supposed to look beyond my affiliation. None of those people you mentioned are doctors. Period. Maybe it’s time you stepped away from your party’s propoganda, and realize that the same people that you’re listening to (McConnell, etc.) are actively involved in single-payer health care………..

When I say look beyond the party, I mean that just because your candidate supports something, that doesn’t mean you have to. Especially if it’s something as big as healthcare. Again, look at other government programs… Social Security…Fannie/Freddie.. Medicaid/Medicare.
Is this really the future we want? We’re having to come up with solutions BECAUSE of these entities.

Sure, the rich or responsible people will figure out how to make it work, but the peoople we’re trying to help, (i.e., poor, disadvantaged, illegals) will still flood the system and eventually ruin it. The “idea” may be a good one, but it doesn’t translate into practice. Eventually the system buckles under it’s own weight. I don’t want the healthcare industry to suffer the same fate.

Jeff would have seemed to have hit the nail on the head. FEMA was a respected, effective agency until Formad got their hands on it and gutted it.

What Jeff is really saying, therefore, is DON’T let the Cons get control of government agencies.

Wise sentiments Jeff, we thank you for your contribution.

PS I’m really surprised he hasn’t attacked the Post Office. That seems to be every anti-government’s whipping boy, overlooking that the PO offers mail service to everyone at the same rate. AND (and?), unlike their competitors, can’t set up shop in foreign countries.

The IRS? They do a pretty darned good job of understanding the confusion perpetrated on this country by Congress and of collecting the money only to have those same members of Congress fritter it away.

Government agencies aren’t the problem, it’s Congress that’s the problem.

No Dennis what he is saying is don’t let Dems run Congress!

That’s NOT what I’m hearing.

The Dems might overload agencies and services with BS stuff, but the Cons positively gut them; save for DOD.

Let’s get something straight… whether we are talking about government run or private healthcare, we are still talking about massive bureaucracy and the ensuing fraud and waste that drive up costs and lead to deficiencies in the delivery of care. The bulk of the claims will always come from a relative minority of the beneficiaries, probably a case of the 80/20 rule or something. So, under our current system, while there are many uninsured or underinsured, there are only a relative few who do are not delivered necessary care. Likewise, under a government program, it is probably a similar relative few who would be denied coverage based on bureaucratic inefficiencies. Anyway it seems to me that this conversation would benefit from some consensus as to who and how many folks are / would likely be missing out under both scenarios. Also, the right wing needs to concede some dollar figure on the cost of the current systemd inefficiencies, so we can factor this into a comparison of the costs of the public plan.

I was trying to keep my personal political persuasion out of this discussion and keep my point front and center…..I DO NOT WANT OUR GOVERNMENT TO RUN THE HEALTHCARE INDUSTRY…I DON’T CARE WHAT PARTY IS IN POWER.

And Dennis, sure, for every bad agency I name, you can come up with a “good” one…but c’mon the IRS and PO? Those are the best? I’ll give you the PO..but the IRS?? The tax system in our country is as big a clusterf**k as anything else. It’s not an indictment on the individuals, just the ’system.’

PS. Congress is certainly the problem, no matter which side they are on. Here’s one vote for term limits!!!!

Jed Clampett

DD, what you are not hearing is that cons are saying, don’t let anyone but them govern. And when they are in power, any dissenters are traitors or cowards or some other such sentiment. HMMM!!! given their track record, one has to wonder why they want to be in control.

Walking through my local B&Noble yesterday, I kept getting drawn to the Alternative Medicine section. Where I found a book called, ‘The Body Electric, Electromagnetism and the foundation of life’ by Robert O. Becker, M.D and Gary Selden. Has the name of a favorite Rush song and reads like Tesla and Lakhovsky, pick it up if you get a chance… with this technology we can heal and perhaps even coax the body into regrowing lost parts. Amazing what has been hidden from us.

Dear Jed,

RE:… with this technology we can heal and perhaps even coax the body into regrowing lost parts. Amazing what has been hidden from us.

EPIC FAIL

Jed Clampett

Yes, an epic failure of those that supposedly go into a healing career to help others, and actually ignore learning all the facts about what they will be working on. They have failed to understand even the way that they themselves work. So instead of becoming healers, they become the pusher… pushing things that hurt people rather than heal. They become trapped by the lies they are told mixed in with truth and become so busy that they forget to look for what is real compared t what is simply BS piled deeper and higher.

Flush’em J, Flush’em.

They are like those guys with the fancy hubcaps… They spinnin, man, they spinnin… they spinnin, man, they spiiiiniiiin.

Jeff,

Any problems in the IRS is in the laws passed by Congress, NOT in the way the organization runs. In fact, a case can be made they are superior BECAUSE they are a political football.

Complaining about the IRS is like complaining about a cop giving you a speeding ticket. HE didn’t set the limit; he’s merely there to enforce the rules (sorta).

Each year Congress modifies the existing tax code and each year the IRS has to apply that code evenly throughout the country. I think they should be commended.

If you step back and think about it, all government agencies should be cut considerable slack. Congress seems to measure its worth by the number of laws it passes and SOME government agency has to interpret those laws (good luck) and apply them logically (good luck) into existing statutes.

It’s politics, pure and simple and the hard working civil servants deserve a LOT more respect than they’re receiving. Those NOT working hard can be taken out back and shot.

Single p@yer is the choice of the majority of people, doctors, and other healthcare professionals. Why is it off the table again?

@ Dirty
The one thing the government sucks at is generating wealth. You may be satisfied with how that wealth is confiscated and reallocated, but the fact is that goverment has never been good at generating the wealth that fund any government program you might choose to support. Look around the world and you will see that there is plenty of people power and no absence of centralized authority, what is lacking is the marketplace infrastructure that makes things like healthcare or disaster relief possible. Government only shrinks marketplaces with its artificial constraints. It is obvious that the healthcare marketplace is not efficient, but there are other options for reform that don’t merely cast government in the role of an insurance provider. This is probably the least creative way of implementing reform, although it appears decisive. And significant. T

You want creativity? Here’s my crazy solution. There are something like 310 million Americans. If an average individual health plan costs 7K, then it would cost 2.1 Trillion per anum to insure all Americans. Why not 1) ban group coverage 2) give the 7K to each American in some account that can only be used to fund healthcare and/or retirement and 3) fund this program with partial proceeds generated by ending ss, medicare and medicaid. The cost would be staggering, but so are those associated with a public plan and/or leaving the status quo intact. At least my plan stands a chance of kindling market forces by devolving the choice of a plan to the individual versus his employer. It also frees up loads of capital for individuals and businesses to spend or invest as they see fit.

Clit, I think you’re supposed to stay on topic.

They sure put a lot of our wealth in the hands of oligarchs, who then use it against us and the world to generate more wealth. Seems like they do transfer wealth from the comfortably numb to the comfortably fortunate.

Just have to say tnx to TD & RS for NOT jumping on the Gov Sanford bandwagon. The whole issue needs nada comment.

Prehensile!!??!! Wow, what a great word, tnx for sharing it. You would come across looking a LOT better if you dropped the clit.

I looked it up, naturally, and was taken by the variety of meanings. One has to imagine which you were leaning towards in your post. “Immoderately desirous of acquiring e.g. wealth?”

Anyway, your comment is accurate to a point but oh so limited in scope and perspective.

Without organized, effective government, the free market would be non-existent. Which came first, wealth or an organized nation state? You can take a few minutes pondering that one if you like.

And just why oh why do all those companies pay BILLIONS to influence government? I’ll answer that one; because government is the deep pocket that ensures that the marketplace exists and flourishes. It primes the pump, repeatedly, funds research and, when the silly, greedy, little children in the marketplace screw up, as they are wont to do, it is the government who comes to their rescue.

Government does NOT shrink the marketplace. It is the foundation of the marketplace. Imagine Wall Street under a dictatorship or within anarchy.

DirtyDennis

Not sure what’s up with MCP but I’ve put in two posts that have ‘vanished mysteriously.’ Sometimes they ‘reappear, magically’ so will refrain from resubmitting them.

It’s fascinating. You ’submit,’ your post is revealed, you go about your business and you return to find them gone. Pretty much lame.

Jed Clampett

One of the many dangers to all of us from nuclear ‘energy’…
read about the Alexander Litvinenko case.
How can they actually try to use radiation and radioactive materials to ‘CURE’???

blood for oil of olay, there are about 131.36 million taxpayers. That comes out close to $16,000 per taxpayer using your price tag of $2.1 trillion per year.

As the popultation ages the number of non taxpayers will increase creating a greater burden on the taxpayer.

The average income per taxpayer in 2008 was $32,000 a year. Such a dent in the wallet is what the debate is about. Do the people ignore others (aka survival of the fitest) and use the savings to keep something resembling a capitalistic country going or does one go into a deep socialim to keep an equalist belief even if it destroys the economy?

Now the Democrats are trying to cut costs in the paperwork which could mean giving just limited care or not telling the truth of what the numbers really are (some are saying this universal care will actually save taxpayers money).

Single payer or a public health care option will work – if its anything like Medicare. As of now we are paying for the huge 10 -20 million paychecks to fat cat CEO”s- with private jets- golden parachutes- stock options and more. A Public plan will have a much lower admin cost . The GOP is using fear mongering as usual- to scare us about a public plan. Same way they used fear and lies to get us into Iraq !
Do NOT be fooled any more.
The GOP is protecting their ‘ base ‘ of Corp America – big oil – big pharma – greedy insurance / medical Co ’s – NOT Americans !

dianrib, Medicare doesn’t work. By 2050, left alone, it will equal the cost of the federal budget just by itself. Medicare also denies care, the same kind of care Tim doesn’t want denied and some things, like at home nursing, that I don’t want denied. Adding more people to that system will just increase the cost while still denying care. That cost is very much in line with what blood for oil of olay provided.

I am glad we are getting into the numbers now rather than the partisan rants. I am curious on a couple of things. Many people now do not seek health care except for acute problems due to lack of insurance. What will happens when all of these people now try to visit physicians? Do we have enough doctors out there to handle all of the new people? On the financial side, is it possible that if everyone was able to visit a doctor yearly for preventive treatment, would that possibly lower to the total health care costs?

Greg-
I’ll be the first to admit that there are flaws in my plan. Take it as a thought exercise of sorts. With regard to your 16K figure, that sounds like a bargain to me. I paid over 20K last year to fica and another 4.5 for healthcare for my family. Ouch! So under my plan, I come out ahead. I’d vote for me on that basis alone – not to mention my hip ethnicity. Anyway, my point was to suggest that there is plenty of numbers to push around on the books if we were just talking about subsidizing healthcare with a view on improving it. The issue is way bigger. It’s about the Deomocratic party grasping control of an entire industry – 6% of the economy. Underutting insurance companies will ultimately shift the market so overwhelmingly towards the public sector that we will end up with a de facto single-payer system. I say again, this is about consolidating power. This puts the government in the driver’s seat instead of restoring power to the consumer.

Jed- I think I recently spotted you in the Pompano Club. Was that you?

The government owned 100% of the mail industry for a long time. That didn’t stop FedEx, UPS, and DHL from becoming huge companies in a competitive industry.

Why, all of a sudden, would a PUBLIC OPTION, key word being option, put an end to the insurance industry?

In other words, why does ANYBODY use FedEx, when there’s a government option?

blood for oil of olay, you were “just” $300 billion for what the U.S. paid in 2008 for health care. The actual number was $2.4 trillion. In 10 years it’s projected to go up to $4.4 trillion a year and that’s without universal health care. Wages aren’t going to double (or even come close to it) to handle both that number and the addition of bodies.

Obama even admits in the ABC special wanting to use ageism for denial of care and he even said that pain pills over hip surgery for the elderly. The word eldery will be applied to younger and younger people in Logan’s Run fashion as taxpayers would be unwilling or unable to foot the bill. Also Obama admitted in the same special he has his own doctor and would never use government ran health care.

Obama also didn’t tell the truth that the government plan would kill private plans. Government care is willing to work at a loss or break even point because the taxpayers just pay the different. Also his plan calls for the taxation of money going into private care to pay for government care which isn’t taxed. This taxation maybe what will draw healthy people to the government plan because it would be cheaper for them. The sick would rather take the private plans, but any health insurance company would need money from healthy bodies to pay for those that are sick.

There are so many reasons why that is not a valid comparison, I don’t know where to begin. For one, I am not sure whether it makes sense to think of the USPs as being in the same markets as the companies you mentioned. Second, healthcare insurance is a very different type of product/service, I would argue that because few people actually utilize the full benefits of healthcare insurance, they will tend to be more price sensitive and less sensitive to quality. Third, if the purpose of the public plan is to hold down costs, then the USPS is not the model for success. Fourth, healthcare is a much more highly regulated industry than shipping and will very likely grow more so with a public plan in place. If government is willing to eat losses associated with regulatory costs, the public plan has a tremendous advantage over private competitors. That’s enough for now.

Will the politicians writing and voting yes on the health care bill sign up for the plan?

If not, why not?

Greg-
That projected uptick is precisely why I kinda like my plan. We have to unleash market forces to fix thins. A public plan is just an oak stake thru the heart of a zombified market.

Ole,

I have a bunch of Oak stakes I’ll contribute (just in case we need one for each every one of those vampires). And rope too, in case we want to string ‘em up ‘for show’ or drag their sorry carcasses around behind horses for a couple of days.

Jed Clampett

I thought that was you… obviously gunning for the heavens rather than standing by your mother. Oh well, a peaceful man stands tall, while another sells us all out for a few dollars more.

Here’s a thought…
trying to improve the efficiency of my ceiling fans, I was drawn towards the sea. Seems most whales have ridges on their tails. So I tried it and cut some half moons on my fans, works like a charm.

BTW, it’s not difficult to tell when Gollum is on the prowl.

Jed Clampett

I thought that was you… obviously gun.ning for the he.avens rather than standing by your mother. Oh well, a peaceful man stands tall, while another se.lls us all out for a few dol.lars more.

Here’s a nugget..
trying to improve the efficiency of my ceiling fans, I was drawn towards the sea. Seems most whales have ridges on their tails. So I tried it and cut some wedges along the trailing edges on my fans, works like a charm.

BTW, it’s not difficult to tell when Gollum is on the prowl.

DD-
If your truck broke down would you eschew all automotive transport, or would you look into fixing it or perhaps trading it in for a new model? Why does the failure of the health insurance market suggest to you that it’s time to ditch the idea of a market? It seems to me that shortcomings that inhibit competition and consumer choice are so obvious that we would be crazy not to seek improvement along these lines before we decide to reject the paradigm of a free market.

Jed-
So that was you? I have to say I was not impressed with the PC. I was engaged in probably one of the most boring conversations I have ever been forced to endure with a group of refiners. I caught snippets of a conversation featuring a left-leaning latino who seemed telecom savvy. Given the locale I thought it was possible that I was ind the presence of Jed Clampett. Did you happen to catch what I whispered under my breath? Anyway, I am going to be in those parts more than I would care to be for the rest of the year. I’ll buy you a beer or a carrott juice or whatever it is you imbibe next time I see you.

why aren’t comments being posted? It never showed so I tried to repost and it indicated that the post was a duplicate.

OK, if it was a dup then why did the original never show up???

Does someone at RS realize that there is a problem?

Jed Clampett

They do realize it, they are just too rock headed to do anything about it even though they have been given clear instruction on how to fix it. I think we’re gonna have to blow this taco stand and go for some real mind food.

bfOil- Well, so many trolls around it’s difficult to get a word in edgewise sometimes. But it’s fun to chat with folks who can relate. As for what I imbibe? I’m all into water, so water is my favorite drink. Ergo my desire to protect it from these crabs and scarabs.

NoWeWon’t,

No they won`t!

In answer to your question quoted below.

“Will the politicians writing and voting yes on the health care bill sign up for the plan?
If not, why not?”

Because they will not want to wait for treatments and not want to be denied treatment, when the inevitable rationing occurs. They and their families will go to the front of the line.

And if you`re older and on social security, wait till some Govt Medical Board decides it`s a waist of money at your age to pay for some life saving procedure.

Do you hear me DD?

And it`s not fear mongering. It does go on in countries like Great Britain and Canada to a lesser or greater expense. Contrary to what Bubba said about the French system.

Jed Clampett

Or, perhaps the true healers will be allowed the opportunity to flourish and Flush the pushers and can.cers, who would rather wait in endless denial until a more lucrative ailment develops. Caching… Flush!!

Conflicted, the young speedster is.
Once an ace, an ace of spades he’s been tortured into.
Conflicted by the mission he is.
The light, he is told to extinguish.
Bumblebees conflict his thoughts and torture his dreams.
A path he must choose.
To complete his mission means endless darkness and slavery, the target of blame.
The path of private Pyle he ponders, unleash the Full Metal Jacket on himself and his guardian.

The way of Darth Vader is better… trust the light. Learn from it, be a master of your beast.
It is better to shatter the crystal skull than remain it’s slave forever in darkness.

High speed dirt they deserve, so it must if you choose the light rather than remain in darkness and torture.
The real war lies ahead, don’t help the real enemy.

Fight for your right to party. We’ll sleep in Brooklyn.

Peace

should have seen the melon was not as it should be. I wonder what they used, a poison works within and from without, I wonder what secrets rasputin held.

Ole,

You think the truck’s a Toyota SR5 and I think it’s a Chevy S-10. I want a Toyota Tacoma.

In a perfect world, I believe a free market health system should be superior. ‘Exposure’ has convinced me this is far from a perfect world.

I agree with Jed that greed is an underlying cause but, oddly, when I think of the people I know, I know of no one overtly greedy. There’s a contradiction in place that I can not reconcile.

PC,

Give it a rest young man. No one is suggesting that a government health plan would in any way approach the plan those jerks in Congress have. Why compare? There is NO debate.

And if you think private health plans don’t deny care and treatment then you’re living in a dreamworld.

Aflac!!

Duck duck, goose.

Feel the love.

Thank you!!!

From me and her.

DD-
I would love to have a Tacoma, but alas I cannot bring myself to buy something that gets 20 mpg. Regarding greed, I can relate to what you and Jed are saying. I think healthcare insurers are indeed the fukkers that TDick labeled them. The system as it is, starts with the bottom line. Increasing the bottom of line is a matter of slashing cost rather than growing the business. I don’t think this inefficiency or injustice, or whatever you choose to call it, is a result of a free market. The market is NOT free it is so highly-constrained by historical inertia that the consumer has not choice and companies can rest on their laurels instead of rising to the rigors enforced by market discipline. I definitely have to agree with you lefties who think that government must act…government is the only actor who is big enough and influential enough to affect a sweeping change to an industry that represents 6% of the economy. If the public plan is committed to covering healthcare without eating cost for doing so, then I will definitely support it. I just don’t see that happening. This is an issue that needs to be addressed explicitly. In fact I see the administration craftily spinning rhetoric to deflect this concern without specifically addressing it. Not too mention, in a time when public debt is skyrocketing, it is grossly irresponsible to obfuscate government’s financial commitments to programs of epic proportion such as this one. Ultimately, I don’t think a promise of healthcare which is founded in a landscape of funny money is any more comforting that rolling the dice with the industry today.

Ole,

I think I probably agree with all you say, but had NO idea Tacomas were so poor on mileage. Guess I’m remembering the Toyotas of the 80s and 90s. Sigh, is there no honor anywhere, anymore?

But, I think you may be on to something that this is NOT the time to be creating a national health care program. We’ve gotten by without one for quite a while, waiting a little longer may not be a disaster. If I had to choose, I’d opt for fixing the economy and THEN addressing universal health care.

Government officials DO participate in a single-payer plan. So, the answer is YES, unequivocally.

Blood, the idea of a public plan, is to create SOME SORT OF COMPETITION in the marketplace. There isn’t, hasn’t been, and, if we keep talking about reforming the current system, never WILL be competition unless the government starts it somehow.

Aren’t you sick and tired of being held captive in certain industries? Transportation? Put gas in your tank. Why nothing else? Health care? Get insurance, unless you’re poor or old. Why no other option?

It’s time for ‘generic’ health care as an option.

Bubba-
The reason there is no other option is because people are too unimaginative to try something new, not because government or big business hasn’t swooped in with the answer. Why should government and big business determine what you put in your tank or your belly for that matter? I spent the morning harvesting okra and peppers. I’ll probably pickle them tonight. Later, when I wash the dirt out from between my toes, I’ll be standing under a stream of water heated by the sun. When I drive to work on Monday, I’ll be propelled by a 0.9 L engine. While I am doing all these things, I don’t consider myself to be part of some grand plan to save the world, but I have to say if half the people who are griping about alternatives to the status quo got off their rear ends and tried something new, even tiny incremental measures like what I described, a newer, greener economy would be here sooner than later. By the way, growing your own veggies, heating your water by the sun, and owning an efficient car do not require big outlays of cash. So, in my opinion, there is no reason not to try something new. It’s a matter of laziness and inertia. Getting back to the issue of healthcare, this same twisted logic is at work. Most Americans apparently imagine that the only alternative to employer-sponsored programs is manna from heaven.

Ole,

Okra? Ick. But you ARE homing in on at least one of the problems. H. Sapien’s predisposition to look to others to solve ‘their’ problems.

‘Amuse me.’
‘Please me.’

Any ‘ills’ that exist in the body politic begin at home. If you can’t take care of your own house, troubling others about THEIR house seems to be an ill-conceived venture.

I’ve always liked ‘house.’ It can denote, as one, our government, and, as another, our abode.

.9 L? What, a moped?

Conflicted, the young speedster is.
Once an ace, an ace of spades he’s been tortured into.
An ace in the hole, he can become.

Conflicted by the mission he is.
The light, he is told to extinguish.
Bumblebees conflict his thoughts and torture his dreams.
A path he must choose.

To complete his mission means endless darkness and slavery, the target of blame.

The path of private Pyle he ponders, unleash the Full Metal Jacket on himself and his guardian.
The desired result, that path does not lead to.

The illumination of AnaKin has a better ending… trust the light. Learn from it, master your beast.

It is better to shatter the cry.stal skull than remain it’s slave forever in darkness

High speed dirt they deserve, so it must be.
Choose the light rather than remain in darkness and torture.
The real war lies ahead, don’t help the real enemy.

Fight for your right to party.
We’ll sleep in Brooklyn.

BTW – nice bat

Peace

Well said, DD. The home or house has to be where everything starts. Education, health, finance, etc. All policies should be aimed at empowering this most elemental unit. That said, I doubt all of us can agree on how to do that, but I think if we all agree on that much, things will generally work out for the better. In Russian, the word for house and home are one and the same – doma. Throughout my life this has always perplexed me, sometimes I think it is utterly impersonal, other times I think it is merely an optimistic refinement.

Ole,

You can open up quite a discussion with that whole notion.

I think of the word snow for Eskimos. Home/house, et al is not dissimilar in the European-dominated culture.

Getting a consensus on terminology, etc. might be a bit of work.

The insurance industry, as a whole, should not be the largest industry in the world. Obviously, we’re paying way too much for insurance. A government option, or any other option, for that matter, would force the insurance industry to lower its prices. That’s the intent here. And, with the huge insurance lobby, the only competition is going to come from something that the government starts…….

It would lower costs across the board. Medicaid, medicare, SCHIP, private insurance, everywhere. Costs would be lowered, care wouldn’t. In fact, MORE people may actually pick up private insurance because it’s become affordable.

Jed Clampett

Bravo!!

I love it when people strive for ex.cel.lence rather than be mired in excr… well, you know.

First we must clean out the gho.sts in our own closet before even attempting to help those tortured in a dif.fer.ent house. And dropping guided eggs won’t cut the mustard or help anyone.

I think therefore I am? BS…
We imagine and act, therefore we are.

Peace

The majority of health coverage is funded by the employer, right out of his pocket,not insurance, I do not know were every one gets the crazy idea Insurance is the only means of funding. the Employer carries stop loss or umbrella coverage for aggragate claims go over 110% of the previous year, so lets get the story straight.

Dirty D
The difference is, once the Govt controls Health Care and that`s where all this is heading eventually, you won`t be able to shop around for better coverage. So if some govt beauracrat says you can`t have treatment, where do you go from there?

As a Canadian was recently quoted as saying “If the US goes the way of socialized medicine, were will we go to get treated for things we are denied here?”

Coach

In what fantasy world has the Govt ever lowered the cost on anything? Name it. We`d all like to know.

Priceless, PC, priceless. “A Canadian was quoted?” How lame. And just who might ‘that Canadian’ be? You brandish that quote like some scripture from the Mount. I’m sure among all the millions of our Northern Neighbors it’s possible to find ONE who will make that claim, regardless of its validity or applicability.

And YOU seize upon it as though it is something meaningful. THAT is your main argument against socialized medicine? Millions (MILLIONS) will have better health care but one (ONE) person might (MIGHT) not be able to get the health care he wants.

And you don’t even know if that’s the case because you have NO idea just what the future of health care in this country holds. You just flap your wings and parrot what you’ve heard others say.

Tell your rich ‘friend’ in Canada he can still get the treatment he desires in Mexico, South America, Asia and Europe. If he can’t get it ‘fixed’ there it can’t be fixed.

And how do we know that? Because thousands of Americans do the same every year to get the treatment they’re denied here. In fact, where do you think thousands of elderly, fixed income AMERICANS get their medicine every year: Canada.

Crasher: UPS and FedEx both ship internationally CHEAPER than the USPS. Same day, next day, two day, ALL CHEAPER than the post office.

There, did you listen? Or, would you like me to repeat it?

And, quoting ONE canadian is a joke. What about the hundreds of canadians that I actually have met? None of them complained AT ALL, and, in fact, told me that the United States health system is one of the biggest jokes on the planet and we’re all being duped. What about them? Huh?

Massachusetts health care reform laws of 2004 and 2006 has already collapsed. With a mix of forcing people that can pay to get health insurance and providing subsidized health care for those that can’t it resembles Obama’s health care plan. But after about three years it’s now broke and the people in charge are already cutting off care because of the lack of funds even though it was spending $700 million a year to partially cover range from 395,000 to 653,000 people. Employers were the ones paying into that pool at a tax rate of up to $295 per employee along with 3% paying a tax for not having health insurance. Now the state plans to increase sales tax to increase the pool size.

Also what happened was the insurance companies started to raise their rates as people were forced to get insurance and were unable to say no.