Can another country torture Cheney to find out the real reason for the necessity to invade Iraq. AND, to get the details of his energy meetings???

It doesn’t matter who knew about the torture program, because even if they did know, they aren’t allowed to say anything, it’s a classified briefing. It doesn’t matter why we chose to torture, because that can be spun a thousand different ways. What DOES matter is that we were caught waterboarding. Waterboarding is against the law. Finding the executor of the policy and punishing him/her is of utmost importance to the future of our country. Everything else is just a food fight. Remember, Dick Cheney came from the Nixon Administration which thought, and still thinks, that the president, and subsequently the VP, are above the law. Had they been punished back then, this might not have happened.

Aren’t we talking about the same CIA here? The CIA who most recently boasted that they destroyed a mountain of video evidence showing torture? Or, perhaps the CIA who provided the evidence for WMD in the race to war with Iraq? I know, the CIA who used the illegal Bush doctrines of wire tapping American Citizens. Maybe were talking about the CIA who orchestrated the Iran – Contra deal. No, maybe we’re talking about the CIA who invested massive amounts of time investigating people like John Lennon for their dangerous stance on peace and love. I think it’s time that Bush, Cheney,Rice, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Pelosi, and any member of the CIA who have made a mockery of the rule of law, do a little hard time of there own.

Coach
Thank God for Nancy Pelosi. It does matter who knew and when did they know it because it points to motivation. Are the Dems really against water boarding or are they just playing politics with national defense? She didn’t have to reveal any secrets. She at minimum should have.voiced her objection as was her duty as a ranking member of the Intel Commitee. In fact later on she did object to something the CIA was doing and they stopped the practice. Bottom line she and just about every other Dem at the time, right after 911, wanted anything done to keep us safe.And if she says she didn’t know, she’s full of “Pelosi”. Women is an embarrassment. To think she’s 3rd in line to be Prez is frightening. Take off your partison blinders, Coach.

Even before the Iraq invasion anybody who was paying more than passing attention and had above an 85 IQ knew that Iraq had NOTHING directly to do with any terrorist group. It was about removing a troublesome government and inserting a more western friendly one. Some even fantasized about this newly installed democratic government starting a chain reaction of democracy across the Middle East. Terrorism? Weapons of mass destruction? They are circus sideshows for that fraction of the populace that dedicates 5 minutes a week to foreign affairs issues (90% of the country?). Can you imagine trying to explain a foreign government transplant to people who can’t focus on this stuff for more than five minutes? The entire history of Iraq and the intricacies of its relations with its Middle East neighbors in five minutes? Advertisers find it a challenge to get people to focus for a 30-second ad.

Now I’m making no inference to whether this is right or wrong. I’m simply offering the idea that these things happen when an administration wants to start certain activities into motion and the populace really doesn’t want to be bothered to understand the details. People love short cuts and the administration was happy to hand them one. As far as torture goes, again it’s pretty obvious it was done but most Americans don’t care because they believe it was done to their benefit. All this wrangling over whom knew what and when is just a lot of political jousting for a very meager windfall. It might be worth 3 or 4 points in the next popularity polls to whomever “wins”.

Jed Clampett

Hey right wingers, I see you are pretty outraged by Mrs. Pelosi’s actions, or inaction rather. Is your outrage based on the fact that she failed to warn the American public that the Bush administration was about to shred the moral basis of the nation or that she didn’t expose the contents of a classified briefing and thus give you the pleasure of watching her being tried for treason like your political party wanted to do anyone who questioned the illogic of war?
Why is there so much outrage over her inaction and not those of your own party who were briefed at the same time?
Please help me understand how you can be so strongly on both sides of the same issue. I know you guys are two faced and ignorant of your own personal ideology unless it is provided, but surely you must have access to some logic. Do you only respond to the puppet master’s pull on strings or are you capable of your own thought without prodding?

Just a thought, any political party willing to wage war on it’s own countrymen merely to attain access to the treasury and the power that entails deserves to have it’s charter denied and the party dissolved. When a party is more interested in seeking power and dominance than in protecting it’s population and the nation it seeks to rule, it must be relegated to irrelevance.

Party Crashed: let me sum this up for you in a description of your argument:

“Waterboarding is not torture. But, in case the law is enforced, and we’re tried for torture, Pelosi knew about it!”

It’s either torture, or it isn’t. Yes, it’s torture. Pelosi, EVEN IF SHE KNEW, was not about to be, like Jed said, tried for treason. Another thing that’s very very important: She did not form the policy.

Yet, you would’ve WANTED her to blow the whistle?? Did you see what happened to Valerie Plame? Or, her husband? Or General Shintaki(?).

Keep reaching PC.

I guess this all matters on who you believe more. Cheney? No. CIA? No. Bush? LMAO. RNC? Not.

Funny how the Republicans are attacking Pelosi for not throwing a fit about classified briefings and leaking information……

Republicans are upset that Nancy Pelosi didn’t commit treason by releasing information about classified briefings.

And, if she did, they would’ve asked her to resign or face her maker. Now, they want her to step down because she didn’t.

Profound example of Republican hypocricy and shamelessness.

Coached
Did you actually read my posting? I clearly said she did not have to give up any secrets but she could have objected through the proper channels as is her duty on the Intel Committee. She is there to oversee and advise.So she is either a moron, a phony or both.The Obama Justice Dept is considering prosecuting CIA lawyers for just giving their legal opinion on waterboading not for coming up with the policy.What’s the difference? Oh yes and I did see what happened to Valley Plane and her publicity hound husband Wilson. They were so concerned about being outed that they decided to pose on the cover of People Magazine in their Vintage Mercedes convertible like a Mr and Mrs Bond. Now the 90% of People’s readers who never heard of them now know she’s a “Look at me I’m a SPY”. They got book deals, movie deals, and are making $$ giving speeches. Oh yeah and let’s not forget they immediately went to work for the Kerry Campaign. What a great sacrafice they made for their country. Bottom line Coach is you are morally outraged about waterboarding but only at Bush officials. You give a pass to Dems who had no problem with boarding at the time and only became outraged later when it could be used as tool against their politIcal opponents.

PartyCrasher: “Bottom line Coach is you are morally outraged about waterboarding but only at Bush officials”

Take it easy Bill O’Reilly. I never said give her a pass. I merely said your argument is futile. If KNOWING it was going on is enough to prosecute, then there’s going to be some more republicans to go down…..

My feeling is that the policy makers and policy activators should go down, whoever that may be. Obviouisy, the policy makers, per say, are the lawyers. But, I believe there will be evidence to show coercion by ’somebody’ to make them written a certain way.

Bottom line is that waterboarding is a war crime and anybody who okay’d it should go down. I’m just not sure Pelosi, or anybody in those intelligent briefings, was in any position to either okay it or reject it.

But, if you think an investigation into the briefings is only going to implicate Pelosi, you’re crazy. It will implicate anybody in there. If Pelosi’s found guilty of anything, then anybody in that room is as guilty as she is………

Jed Clampett

Yes folks, regardless of what you may think, the kid does have a brain… it’s only purpose is to keep his skull from imploding. But regardless of his inability to use it for anything worthwhile, there’s one in there somewhere, too bad someone else is in control of it.

Ask yourself this, “What would happen to me if I were captured in Iraq or Afghanistan?” Waterboarding would be the least of your worries. I am tired of hearing about how bad the detainees have had it. They are fighting on the wrong side. Period.

What the hell would I be doing in Iraq or Afghanistan anyway? If I’m there stealing their oil and killing their people, busting down their doors and terrorizing the population then I probably deserve that and more. If you want to avoid it, be a man and put a bullet in your head before being taken.

Hey Halen: So, it’s okay for the United States to bomb, attack, invade, and occupy Iraq, but it’s not okay for them to fight back?

Again, it surfaces. “It’s ok for the united states to do anything they want, as long as it’s a republican dunce calling the shots.”

Halen. If these guys are so ‘bad’, then why have there only been 3 military trials among the 150+ prisoners? If they’re so bad, why only one conviction?

Nobody’s taking their side. However, there are a LOT of people who won’t side with us lowering ourselves to other country’s level.

Torture is not the way to facilitate cooperation with other countries. The U.S. should focus more on soft power and increase the strategic foreign aid.
The Borgen Project has good info on the estimated cost of ending global poverty:

$30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.

$550 billion: U.S. Defense budget.

Jed Clampett

Recent developments in the parlance of the administration and their supporters that worries me a bit. They keep referring to the torture memos and the lowering of America’s already tenuous morality as ‘the mistaken policy of the previous administration’. Now, I understand the need for caution when dealing in these matters, but the word ‘mistaken’ in the sentence is a softballing of the crime that frankly worries me in it’s suggestion there will be no true justice, and as such a further degradation of America’s credibility and ‘morals’.
Since the days of witch trials in Salem, simulated drowning has been considered a brutal, inhuman act worthy of criminalizing. Even in war we felt that civilized human beings, even though facing the prospect of mass innihilation, should be prosecuted for the inhumane treatment of those in custody, their freedom denied. In the Nixon era we saw the CIA used to murder foreign leaders, terrorize foreign governments into civil war and further destabilize peace and prosperity merely to satisfy America’s economic considerations.
So here we are today, wondering whether that which we considered a crime when used against people before, is justifiable when we ourselves fail to find evidence to support imagined threats. Crime is crime, we decide it is crime because it does not conform to the morals of civilized society.
Like murder, theft, fraud, extortion, slavery and other despicable acts, they must be punished so as to protect future victims and to deter others from committing the same crimes. When you allow those crimes to be committed in your name, then you accept that it is acceptable behavior and thus could be visited upon you just as easily. Now the corporate overlords that seem to own everything in this world through extortion are ready to visit upon their puppets the same actions that have been justified to be done abroad in America’s name.
Congratulation, your apathy and silence has almost demolished all the things this nation supposedly represents. How long do you think an entity can survive when it has lost those things that supposedly made it viable in the first place?

Jed Clampett

Recent developments in the parlance of the administration and their supporters that worries me a bit. They keep referring to the torture memos and the lowering of America’s already tenuous morality as ‘the mistaken policy of the previous administration’.

Now, I understand the need for caution when dealing in these matters, but the word ‘mistaken’ in the sentence is a softballing of the crime that frankly worries me in it’s suggestion there will be no true justice, and as such a further degradation of America’s credibility and ‘morals’.
Since the days of witch trials in Salem, simulated drowning has been considered a brutal, inhuman act worthy of criminalizing. Even in war we felt that civilized human beings, even though facing the prospect of ma$s innihilation, should be prosecuted for the inhumane treatment of those in custody, their freedom denied. In the Nixon era we saw the CIA used to murder foreign leaders, terrorize foreign governments into civil war and further destabilize peace and prosperity merely to satisfy America’s economic considerations.
So here we are today, wondering whether that which we considered a crime when used against people before, is justifiable when we ourselves fail to find evidence to support imagined threats. Crime is crime, we decide it is crime because it does not conform to the morals of civilized society.
Like murder, theft, fraud, extortion, slavery and other despicable acts, they must be punished so as to protect future victims and to deter others from committing the same crimes. When you allow those crimes to be committed in your name, then you accept that it is acceptable behavior and thus could be visited upon you just as easily.
Now the corporate overlords that seem to own everything in this world through extortion are ready to visit upon their puppets the same actions that have been justified to be done abroad in America’s name.
Congratulation, your apathy and silence has almost demolished all the things this nation supposedly represents. How long do you think an entity can survive when it has lost that which supposedly made it viable in the first place?

Hey Coach,
Let the chips fall where they may. The sweet irony is that Pelosi and gang wanted this big investigation to affect only Bush Adm and Republicans. They never in their wildest dreams thought they would get caught up in this mess themselves. When she said the CIA lied to her, Leon Panetta (CIA Chief),immediately rebutted her. Which tells me that Obama is ready to throw her under the bus if need be. He suddenly realizes that this is a loosing issue for him and the country. That’s why the abrubt change in releasing the so called torture photos.
And don’t be surprised if GITMO doesn’t end up being closed.
Sorry Coach, I know you want your pound of flesh.

Jed,
“A mistaken policy of the previous administration”.

You are wise to to detect the subtle change in language. But I think you may be disappointed.many more times in the next four years. I know how much you and.your left wing buddies were drooling for sweet revenge against those evil neo cons.
Sometimes life just sucks, doesn’t it?

Jed Clampett

Wiser than you could ever imagine or comprehend; been doing it a long time, as such, I don’t get disappointed either; I know how badly humans are corrupted by very simple suggestion of a repetitive nature to do things against their own interest, so I don’t hold any expectations they will do the right thing unless they have no other choice; you are a great example of that. I’ve known people like you through all my experience in this world, those extremely selfish and vile people that hate humans and the Earth they live in so much, they would help the common enemy that brought Gorbachev and Reagan to an agreement that helped ‘tear down this wall’ and led to cooperation between our nations. Too bad republican leadership decided to rebuild it in a more dangerous figurative way. What patriotic bunch of ‘elites’.

“I know how much you and.your left wing buddies were drooling for sweet revenge against those evil neo cons.” — Evidently, you don’t know much and understand even less, great companions for your inexistent reading comprehension and retention, if you think that this is about consuming revenge; unless you’ve confused making criminals pay for their crimes as vengeance… then again, considering how corruptible you are, the case is probably that you identify so well with criminals that you feel that your nation’s AG is vengeful… given how you supported the last AG, evidence to support my theory is quite evident. It is quite interesting that you are capable of recognizing the inherent character of those people, now, if you didn’t accept evil as productive behavior… oh well, some folks prefer the certainty and reactivity of slavery. You might want to be careful, you might wind up as acceptable collateral damage in their revenge against the ‘negro’ that made them accountable to the electorate.

“Sometimes life just sucks, doesn’t it?” — No, actually, life is awesome and fulfilling in all it’s forms, it’s humans that seem to be the self defeating part of the equation, particularly those who have no capacity for understanding a simple four letter word that can make you truly free and save humanity and spaceship Earth.

BTW – did you know that the Imperialist States of America invaded Nicaragua in 1912 and occupied it for 20 years?
Apparently it was against ‘Amurricahn Intrusts’ for the sovereign nation of Nicaragua to entertain the idea of making a deal with Germany and Japan to build a canal that would compete with the Panama canal.
Just another little drop in a long river of imperialism, occupation and denying others the ‘freedom’ Amurricahns relish so much? Is the ‘freedom’ you wish to export the freedom to terrorize the population and monopolize the economic power of the globe to put in the hands a few libertines? Only ones with real freedom in the this country are those with the wealth to buy themselves impunity.

Jed Clampett

Wiser than you could ever achieve or even comprehend; been doing it a long time, as such, I don’t get disappointed either; I know how badly humans are corrupted by very simple suggestion of a repetitive nature to do things against their own interest, so I don’t hold any expectations they will do the right thing unless they have no other choice; you are a great example of that. I’ve known people like you through all my experience in this world, those extremely selfish and vile people that hate humans and the Earth they live in so much, they would help the common enemy that brought Gorbachev and Reagan to an agreement which helped ‘tear down this wall’ and led to cooperation between our nations. Too bad republican leadership decided to rebuild the wall in a more dangerous figurative way. What patriotic bunch of ‘elites’.

“I know how much you and.your left wing buddies were drooling for sweet revenge against those evil neo cons.” — Evidently, you don’t know much more than what you imagine and understand even less (probably a product of your inexistent reading comprehension and retention) if you think that this is about consuming revenge; unless you’ve confused making criminals pay for their crimes as vengeance… then again, considering how corruptible you are, the case is probably that you identify so well with criminals that you feel that your nation’s AG is vengeful… given your tolerance of the previous AG, data to support my theory is quite evident. It is quite interesting that you are capable of recognizing the inherent character of those people, now, if you didn’t accept evil as productive behavior… oh well, some folks prefer the certainty and reactivity of slavery. You might want to be careful, you may wind up as acceptable collateral damage in their revenge against the ‘messiah’ that made them accountable to the electorate.

“Sometimes life just sucks, doesn’t it?” — No, actually, life is awesome and fulfilling in all it’s forms, it’s humans that seem to be the self defeating part of the equation, particularly those who have no capacity for understanding a simple four letter word that can make you truly free and save humanity as well as spaceship Earth.

BTW – did you know that the Imperialist States of America invaded Nicaragua in 1912 and occupied it for 20 years?
Apparently it was against ‘Amurricahn Intrusts’ for the sovereign nation of Nicaragua to entertain the idea of making a deal with Germany and Japan to build a can.al that would compete with the Panama can.al.
Just another little drop in a long river of imperialism, occupation and denying others the ‘freedom’ Amurricahns relish so much? Is the ‘freedom’ you wish to export the freedom to terrorize the population and monopolize the economic power of the globe to put in the hands a few libertines? Only ones with real freedom in the this country are those with the wealth to b.uy themselves impunity.

Crasher, you act as though you’ve won something. Pelosi is not guilty of anything yet. In fact, what are you going to charge her with?
Regarding Gitmo: I still can’t understand why it’s such a horrible thing to give a prisoner to a prison. It’s a wedge issue being used to the fullest political extent. Fundamentally speaking, it’s just a prisoner going to prison. Or, here’s another solution: Try the prisoner and convict him/her of something already!

Also, as far as libs looking for sweet revenge against the neo-cons, I think you’re mistaken. I think maybe you should realize how many people in arab nations are looking for sweet revenge against the neocon policy.

While Obama may be catering to loonies a bit much for my liking, it was all well expected. He’s still passing policies.

Pelosi is not going to go down for anything. Again, what would be the charges?

What a joke. Pelosi is a liar and looked to throw an already demoralized CIA (thank you Democrats) under the bus. That is the issue, not what party she belongs to. The fact that some would support her and her lying, hypocritical rhetoric shows one thing: that they don’t care about torture and human rights, they care about partisanship. Robots away, liberal blogosphere.

CCo: PARTISANSHIP? Are you freaking kidding? Not once, not one single freaking time, did you mention how partisan the Bush administration was. That’s absolutely ridiculous, and completely hypocritical of you.

You want to talk partisanship? Obama’s keeping military tribunals open, even though the only ones who WANT that are the radical conservatives. Obama’s NOT transferring captives to our prison system (not sure why not) to appease the radical conservatives, AGAIN. Obama is NOT going to seek a single-payer health system, AGAIN, to appease republicans. He has appointed several republicans to cabinet positions, and ambassador positions. His AG is NOT pursuing ridiculous inquiries into vote fraud by republicans.

So, the next time you complain about partisanship, remember this: Republicans have been trounced in the last two elections BECAUSE of the previous administration’s partisanship. Add the previous two elections to that, ones that were virtually even, and it’s been quite evident that the shift in this country’s ideology is AWAY from republican ideology.

Partisanship is an illusion. It’s called compromise. And, nobody does it worse than Republicans.

what a great country, we can claim a fact although we did not see or hear the act ourselves and we can speak ill of anyone, including the dead, and not suffer what would happen to us if we lived in Iraq or China. Blessings on us all.

Coach,

It’s so ironic how national events keep making my points for me. What’s wrong with transfering these GITMO detainees to US prisons. News Flash! FBI just busted a home grown four man terrorist ring in plot to blow up Synagogues in NY and shoot down airplanes. Three of these Jew hating sweathearts are recent prison converts to Islam. If you would leave your liberal cocoon once and a while, you might have heard of the increasing radicalization of especially African American inmates to Islam. Mullahs along with other spiritual advisors like priest etc..are allowed in to minister to inmates. Some of these clerics are radicals funded by the Saudis. Insanity! So you think it’s a great idea to spread 250 of the worst Islamic Terrorist through out our prison system.
How ironic and inconvenient that’s our naive Commander in Chief, the day after he had his head handed to him in a 90% Senate vote against closing GITMO, is giving a speech in NY to make his idiotic case to close GITMO, on the same day the FBI announces this arrest. By the way, GITMO is an American prison with a lot better facilities then any Maximum Security.
I swear you liberals are suicidal but you want to take us all with you.
And right after Obama says he wants talk with the Iranians, they flip him the bird and start launching missiles that can hit Europe. I guess they’re not impressed by his charm.

PC,

You should read more about ‘the gang who couldn’t shoot straight’ and NOT listen to Rush so much. These guys could just as easily have gotten their ‘indoctrination’ from a comic book as from anywhere else.

In point of fact, among 300 million people, you’re going to find a LOT of loonies who have a grudge, rightly or wrongly, and are easily led.

I wouldn’t worry TOO much about the Guantanamo ‘terrorists’ converting the U.S. prison population. They, like other hardened criminal, Manson, Sirhan, et al, will be isolated.

You are like medieval medicine, treating symptoms as the cause.

Crasher, first of all, Phuck You! That’s for telling me to come out of my liberal cocoon.

Second, these terrorists were, literally, psycho. And, you’re going to promote fear because of some psychos?

Gitmo was voted against because there wasn’t a plan in place for the FEW detainees that couldn’t be tried BECAUSE we tortured them, and evidence from coercion is not admissable.

Amazing how scared you are of prisoners. But, only THESE prisoners. Are you afraid of all the terrorists we CURRENTLY house? No. You weren’t/aren’t making a big deal about them, so don’t make a big deal about these.

And, to solve EVERYTHING, why don’t you push to have them tried in a court of law, so we can finally reach a judgement? Oh yeah, that’s right, you conservative, radical pukes decided to torture these people, leaving no choice but to detain them indefinitely.

Keep looking under the bed for the Boogeyman partycrashed. But, the more you call us loonies, and tell us to come out of our cocoons, the more you look like a fool. And, quite profoundly, only a fool would regurgitate Limbaugh’s vile rhetoric.

Good luck with that. Your ideology has been absolutely trounced in the last 4 elections. Yes, Bush got beat by Gore, and barely beat Kerry, but Congress voting has been kicking your arse for a while now.

I’m an idiot, right? Yet, you’re the one scared of a prisoner.

Coach,
Phuck you? Conservative Radical Pukes?
My, my, are we over reacting just a little? Me thinks thow thus protest too much!!

Is not me that`s afraid. It`s 90% of the Dems in the Senate. They voted against funding Obama`s GITMO plan because, and the said so, they do not want these loveable detainees in their back yards.
He got like four votes in favor. They were the ultra libs like Leahy VT and Durbin IL. Those two Schmucks probablly want to put them in halfway houses and rehab them with a midnight basketball program.
And if you and DD would not get your panties in such a twist and listen for a moment. I don`t get my news from Rush Limbaugh, read it again, I get it from the news and in the papers. Or though, during the times I have listened to Rush, he is more accurate and more honest then any of the main stream media, in reporting the facts.
Rush is ok. He`s just not conservative enough for me.

Also, fact check my lib friends. According to the released documents, not me, not Rush, out of all the GITMO prisoners, only three were water boarded. They were the top guys from Al Queda involved in 911 and cutting off Danny Pearl`s head etc…And the information gained by the waterboading, again, according to the FBI and the CIA, not me , not Rush, stopped terrorist attacks that could have killed thousands of Americans. They are the real pukes.

All tho, the rest of the detainees did receive even worse torture. They were made to read out load, over and over again TD`s idiotic blog and then also, the comments by guys like you.
Some of them actually died from the torture. Yeah they died laughing at what chumps liberals are.

PS: Coach, According to THE NY TIMES, not me, not Rush, when they did their own recount later, Bush won! Let me say it again. BUSH WON!! So peal off your bumper sticker and get over it.