TD

Thanks for coming around on the Somalia rescue. It could have been a fiasco but it wasn’t. That’s the point. I feel Obama, as President, when faced with extraordinary challenges will do tremendous things. His pragmatic vision will shine through as the right-wing meme becomes extinct.

We are ready to annoint this man savior in chief for allowing the Navy to do it’s job? Really? I didn’t know Obama was the commanding officer on scene, or had any sort of training enabling him to be remotely capable of making the necessary decisions made that day. Nice fluff piece Tim Dickinson, clearly you’re earning your paycheck.

Yes, I hate to be a bit skeptical, but I wouldn call letting the Navy doing its job against a ill equipt, third-world pirate thugs a huge foreign policy victory…

His dealings with Iran, N. Korea, Mexico, and other major, worthwile regions are still yet to be proven, so Obama hasnt even been put through the paces yet…

Awesome work Navy Seals! I look forward to America being powerful and articulate again in the next 4 years. I predict less shoes will be thrown. People will always hate America but now we may be able to get other countries to join us in our fight for peace and freedom. Oh and flat tax for all. Of course that will never happen. Less American deaths will be worth it if that is the cost of a lefty in office. Let us unite and debate without stupid partisan baloney. How did baloney get such a bad name?

Obama is actually being ripped by the left, his own guys. For instance he now has a 16 year-old prisoner to deal with. I don’t know the age of the other prisoner or the age of the guys that were killed. Obama might have admitted to ordering the killing of a bunch of kids. He might be one of those “baby killers” Jane Fonda warned us about.

Also the crew of the freight ship did most of the work. They captured one and wounded another while scareing the four pirates (including the wounded one that gave himself up earlier to the navy) onto a lifeboat instead of the boat that carried them to the ship in the first place. There was no major storming the freight ship, because of that. It was instead a pickle shoot.

The debate now is smart power vs dumb aid. Obama wants to increase the aid to Africa. The dumb aid works like this. Everytime the U.S. gives the Africans free food, it puts farmers out of work. Everytime the U.S. gives Africa free clothes, it puts tailors in Africa out of work. Everytime the U.S. gives Africa money it ends up in the hands of some dictator or warlord. A trillion dollars of aid has gone to Africa and Africa ended up poorer as aid replaced the jobs and dictators and warlords used the money for their own agendas.

Now Obama has these choices and they are all what Obama is against:
1. Get into a quagmire by doing what the navy and allies are already doing.
2. Act alone by attacking the Somalia pirates on land, which would require holding at least the coast lines for years if not decades, much like the French did to finish off the Barbary pirates. There is no coalition of the willing to get into Somalia and Obama may have to face several “blackhawk down” senerios, baby killing senerios and those anti-war people that helped get Obama into office. This would be one of those dumb wars that Obama ran against as the cost of keeping the pirates from operating would be more than the cost of just paying the ransoms. There also would be no exit plan, because any exit plan would bring back the pirates.
3. Destroy the fishing vessel of Somalia aka the mother ships. That’s one way to give the Somalians less money and less food.
4. Give Somalia more aid, which would just reward the Somalians for piracy and kill the legit businesses in Somalia. In 2001, Somalia got $191.5 million in foreign aid. In 2008, the government spent $157 million to aid 3.2 million Somalians. That’s $49 million per Somalian and they are still poor.
5. Arm the U.S. merchant ships like the U.S. did in WW2 and the Spanish did with their galleons while facing pirates in the Americas and off the European coast. One problem is that the U.S. ships would have to face the laws of the countries that they go to and many countries ban even rifles. Even the U.S. would probably not stand foreign freighters, yauts and fishing vessels armed with ship to ship missles going into its ports or even in its waters. Also many ships carry explosive cargo that could explode or catch fire during a fire fight with the pirates.

@ Opting out of the COP and Merkwurdigliebe:

Of course President Obama wasn’t there, but perhaps you would have been one of the first to criticize him (even though he wasn’t there) had the operation gone wrong. Moreover, this president is likely to give some thoughtful consideration and action towards the elimination of what causes piracy in the first place.

What causes piracy in the first place?

Claude– The man is going to solve piracy? So he’s going to unilaterally intervene into Somalia, establish order, undo nearly 30 years of civil war and warlord control, and bring all Somali’s above the poverty line so that piracy is no longer a viable option.

Such an undertaking would make Iraq and Afghanistan look like cakewalks. We neither have the time, money, nor inclination to attempt such an ordeal. And if you believe Obama will give anything close to “thoughtful consideration and action towards the elimination of what causes piracy in the first place”, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you for a six-pence (who’s sale might be a thoughful consideration to what causes piracy!)

Perhaps living on Fantasy Island is not such a good choice, eh Claude?

@ Greg_D

“In 2008, the government spent $157 million to aid 3.2 million Somalians. That’s $49 million per Somalian and they are still poor.”

You might want to recheck your math.

It comes to $49 per Somalian.

While I know $49 buys a lot in Africa, it’s hardly enough to pull oneself out of poverty.

Re: Claude.

My response was to this article, and Tim Dickinson’s junior-high fanboy reader.

As far as your comments, the extent of what Obama could’ve done wrong extends to not allowing the Navy to do it’s job. The extent to which he did anything right was allowing the Navy to do it’s job.

But for the esteemed Tim Dickinson to suggest that what happened out there had anything to do with “charmed luck” sells the crew of the Alabama as well as the members of our Armed Forces present(who base actions on experience and training, not charmed luck) woefully short.

And that’d be just wonderful, truly, if Obama could somehow establish leadership, infrastructure, and a viable economy in Somalia to eradicate piracy, unfortunately that’s just not realistic. I’m sure thoughtful consideration will be a fine substitue though.

Huh?, Yeah I messed up on the math there. I might have to get into government or financing with a screw up that bad.

Jed Clampett

with math that bad and that given to misinformation, perhaps you should go into investment banking and help the rest of us remain in hock for the next five generations while ignoring the necessities and infrastructure.
Did you guys recognize Bushneys swansong yet? Was it shutting down the economy? Was it destroying legislation to protect the public? Maybe it was allowing Israel to bomb innocent Palestinians in order to help a bunch of terrorists stay in power and therefore maintain the distraction that helps them hold on to power.

first off, the “welcome back, carter” t-shirt is not about the iran-contra fiasco so much as it is about the inflation we are definitely going to experience as a result of all this treasury/reserve borrowing/printing and gov’t over-spending. the analogy is not a weak one.

then, to add more fuel to greg_d’s comment:
“The debate now is smart power vs dumb aid. Obama wants to increase the aid to Africa. The dumb aid works like this. Everytime the U.S. gives the Africans free food, it puts farmers out of work. Everytime the U.S. gives Africa free clothes, it puts tailors in Africa out of work.”

add to that list, “every time the u.s. gives an agricultural subsidy, it is destroying the ability of african farmers to compete. same goes for any other subsidized business… that’s why the rallying cry of many african protests is “trade not aid.”

First and foremost, the perpetrated legend that our armed forces are ‘the best of the best’ is completely stretched out of the realm of reason. These ‘best of the best’ are oftentimes high school dropouts, law breakers, etc., etc.

Secondly, am I getting the feeling that some of you are ripping Obama for doing the right thing? I know Greg’s going to find some way to rip Obama about EVERYTHING, but the sentiment that by doing the right thing, he did the wrong thing is confusing.

Thirdly, regardless of who the administration is, one must realize that much of our armed forces strength lies in propoganda (Lynch, Tillman, etc.). Meaning, keep it simple. The captain was rescued, and beyond that, it doesn’t matter how or why. Some people want us to blow up suspected pirate ships before they are able to do anything. Some people want us to pay whatever ransom is being asked. One can’t please everybody, so please, STOP THE SPINNING.

Coach– By the same token, the military offers those high school dropouts and others a fresh start and opportunities they otherwise wouldnt have had. And since its voluntary, there is no one forcing anyone to join. But I must disagree; our troops are the best trained, best equiped, and best prepared troops in the world. The military, for the vast majority, leaves those who served in a better position when they leave then when they came in. They may not always have the best political leaders, but hardship comes with the job. Propaganda is a problem, but it always has and always will. I dont think one will ever eliminate it.

Second, the criticism is more on trying to turn this event into some momentus sea-change that signals that Obama is tough on foreign policy. Tim is making it sound like Obama mitigated the Cuban Missile Crisis…when in reality, we whooped the asses of 4 ragtag, technologically backward, third world ganster/pirates. Commendable? Yes. Earth shattering affirmation of Obama the hawk? Uh, no.

Andy- Well put. You’ve discovered the ridiculuousness of our policy towards Africa over the last several decades, and god help us if stagflation rears its head. Obama wont be able to use taxpayer monies to spend his way out of that one…

Coach-
What do YOU know about the quality of our military personnel? While men an women in uniform may be recruited from the lower echelons of our society, the tradition, standards of proficiency and conduct, and level of training are exceptional. Rest assured, the people who you slander hold themselves to a much higher standard than you credit them with. Certainly, there are notable exceptions of where quality falls short, but by and large America’s warriors are worthy of the superlative praise that you claim to be legend.

Oil, it is typical Dem/liberal talking points, they dislike the military. Anyone who would chose a career where a gun is required rather than become a insular college professor, (think Ward Churchill) is clearly a lesser person worthy of criticism.

Ole,

Our troops may be superior than any other but that’s faint praise indeed. Clearly, the U.S. Military does NOT represent the best the United States has to offer.

YOU may have been associated with a stellar group of lads and for that you should be thankful. But I should be careful to extend your experiences too far afield.

WWII was, reputedly, the ‘best of the best,’ and it certainly seems so. It also seems that with each ensuing conflict, the performance of our forces, in general, deteriorates. Perhaps the suicide and homicide rate, especially in families, has always been substantive in our forces, but the sense I get is that it is a phenomenon on the brink of being catastrophic.

No doubt much of these sorts of developments hinge on commanders sending troops overseas again and again and then keeping them there longer and longer. But could you imagine draftees putting up with such nonsense?

As long as we have a volunteer military, we will NEVER represent the best this country has to offer. Nothing gives me more pause than to see troops, in combat, saying, “We’re just doing our job.” That is the mantra of an automaton, one who has no idea of the consequences of his deeds.

Ole, they’re just people. Volunteers, not chosen. And, while the training may be the ‘best’, how do you prove that? And, it’s my contention, that we offer the best driving lessons also. But, you see where that’s gotten us.

My whole point was for SOME people to step back and put things in perspective.

Here’s a question Bloodless: Do you have the same support for law enforcers in this country? In other words, when you see a cop, do you react with the same patriotism as you, obviously, do with the military?

Speaking of propoganda, it seems the whole Columbine story was exactly that, a story.

It certainly seems that every single thing the Bush Administration put their hands on ended up being shared with us in the form of one big pile of lies.

Yes, I do realize that’s overstating a bit. There were probably a few things they were truthful about. Nonsensical and trivial, but truth nonetheless. However, looking back, history has no chance of being kind to them. Iraq, the main cog of the administration, is falling apart the way MANY expected. In the runup, it was mentioned many, many times how reforming Iraq would not work. Well, the Sunnis, whom we bribed to stop shooting at us, are up in arms because of exclusion. Gays are being killed. And, now the tiny, liberal media, is going to be gagged.

But, one thing’s for sure: Shell, Chevron, Exxon, Etc, are there for the next 25 years pumping and servicing that ever-plentiful oil……………

Coach-
The United States has demonstrated its superiority on the battlefield on numerous occasions – just ask the former Iraqi Republican Guard. I think they would be able to provide the proof you require.

As far as your question about cops is concerned – no, I don’t automatically feel the same sense of appreciation for police officers. Certainly, they provide a valuable service, but joining the ranks of law enforcement does not make someone a warrior.

The people that I served with were probably more or less an average sample of Clinton-era military personnel. I could cite numerous instances where individuals and groups of individuals were responsible for misconduct, negligence, incompetence, etc., but the general impression that I formed during my service is that, viewed as a whole, the men and women who serve in the US armed forces are highly trained, committed, honorable people. As individuals they may not be perfect, but when they respond to the call of duty they become part of something much larger than themselves, something that is profoundly capable.

Someone who has never experienced a warrior culture cannot hope to appreciate this and will likely underestimate the drive to rise to the occasion that becomes ingrained in warriors. Mock it, denigrate it, ignore it, but do not be mistaken, the tradition of the warrior culture is alive and well in the US armed forces.

I do not delude myself into thinking that such a culture could not be achieved elsewhere. Still, the time and resources that are put into training and cultivation of the warrior-ethos, on such a scale, is currently unrivaled elsewhere in the world. This is something that should be preserved at great cost if necessary. There are many factors which threaten the source of our superiority, and without a doubt, the nation should be vigilant to counter these threats, but the fact remains that no nation fields such an impressive array of highly-trained and dedicated warriors.

Jed Clampett

did anyone ever figure out why those kids shot up their school? Forget the letter that they carefully prepared and explained their actions and reasons, I know that was completely ignored and substituted for the preferred ‘they hate our way of life’. Can you ever truly fix anything when you prefer to fall for the BS byline rather than understanding the problem and it’s causes in depth?

BTW – if the quality of your political class is any indication of your military, then I wouldn’t be so proud.
When ‘the best of the best’ don’t think about your country and it’s foreign endeavours as defensible or supportable, then it stands to reason that only the dregs that would follow anyone over the ledge as long as they are paid a few bucks; and those that don’t understand the difference between a lawful order and torture for torture’s sake are the only ones conscripted. Obviously, then, the representation you have on the battle field is actually the worst of the worst… and who better to represent a nation such as this? Apparently they haven’t even been well informed on the constitution they are supposed to protect by learning to be criminals.

Jed Clampett

The true measure of a ‘warrior’s mettle is under equal conditions and military strengths and equipment. At this point, the US is being handed it’s ass on a platter by goat herders with little more than AK’s and the little military hardware bought with some of America’s money supporting the Pakistani ISI.
Genious… if your intent is to maintain wars going that justify the huge expense in weapons and material designated to enforce your economic agenda on the world. So, paid mercenaries without a thought in their head is valid. Automatons devoid of that individuality that is eliminated as soon as the maggots step onto basic training, not only is individuality that is erased, those things that make you human as well are eliminated and the substitution are celebrated as ’skills’.

Jed-
Come on, man. You can’t actually believe that these pigfukkers actually measure up to the US military, can you? I recognize that you reject the political leadership that sends the US to war, but does that necessarily require you to extend your disdain and distrust to men and women in uniform? It seems that you are suggesting that the technological superiority of the US military diminishes ‘warrior mettle’. If an equal playing field is required to establish who is warrior and who isn’t, then I suppose the conflict in Afghanistan will never be an adequate venue. The Taliban and their ilk show no restraint in targeting civilians; they cowardly use the Pakistani border as a safe haven; they rely on booby-trap IEDs instead of open combat; they hide among women and children; and most importantly they measure victory in the degree too which they create fear – not just among their enemies – but among those they seek to govern. So, it’s not surprising that the US effort to support a civil society in Afghanistan has been frustrated to an extent. It is shocking, though, to encounter what I am interpreting to be an attempt to diminish the stature of the warriors who willingly give their blood, sweat and tears every day in the line of duty based on some lame comparison to gangs of malicious, moronic arseholes who have decided to exalt their own egos by simply picking up Kolishnakovs and pointing them at anyone who doesn’t recognize their puny pompous authority.

The fact that they, and their sponsors, see fit to refer to them as ‘warriors’ ought to be alarm enough. It is a furthering of the aggrandizement of war, to the detriment of any and all who might think otherwise.

DD-
The term warrior does not necessarily aggrandize war. It merely recognizes that honorably discharging the duty of waging war is a grave matter and demands a certain degree of respect. Being a warrior is not about inflicting death and destruction, it’s about rising above death and destruction to fulfill a duty to some higher purpose.

Jed Clampett

No, the term does not agrandize war, unless you can feel grandiose in hell, which wouldn’t surprise me given your past comments.
The term aggrandizes the criminal who is sent out to kill and destroy for the pleasures of their leadership. Given that in most wars people are conscripted and forced to go to war against their will, then the soldiers going to war are as much a victim as the people who are the recipients of their cruelty and inhumanity.
Reminds me of the picture of that Vietnamese girl who’s on a rural road after her grass hut village was assaulted with million dollar weaponry loaded with napalm. The soldiers become concerned with her and try to help her, yet ignore the death and destruction they have brought to her country merely to counter a political ideology that purportedly supports the people and denies the greedy the exploitation of others.
I wonder if they would have gone to Vietnam to fight if they had understood that the only real reason to go there was to enrich the Military Industrial Complex of both the US and Russia.
Na, warriors is too good a term for those who willingly go to war against the innocents. ‘Tools of destruction and oppression’, now there is a more apt term.

If the military is so great, why do they feel the need to recruit minors. You know, children.

w w w.democracynow.org/2009/4/14/c alifornia_towns _fight_back_against_justice

Sorry about the doublespeak. MCP is acting up, plus it totally mangled that url. The story is at democracynow.org

“California Towns Fight Back Against Justice Department Suit to Overturn Youth Protection Act that Bars Military from Recruiting Minors.”

Jed-
If your criticism was based on a genuine love of peace instead of hatred for discipline, courage, prosperity, strength, success – and any number of other qualities to which those of us who are not paralyzed by your brand of self-loathing aspire – it might be possible to take you seriously. You repeatedly have demonstrated a need to reject any belief, person, or institution that claims moral certitude. While these claims might be subject to appropriate criticisms, your tirades are undignified and childish. They lack any real conviction in an alternative to what they failingly attempt to degrade.

There are more troops in the middle
east than with President Bush.
We have spent trillions bailing out Rich Bankers while we become
unemployed.
This pirate situation in Somalia
has been going on for awhile and
is simply media propaganda and
is being used as a diversion.
The Obama Administration has been
sending us down the river without
a paddle with the new no banker left behind program.
What amazes me is that everyone was angered about Iraq and now it’s all good he inherited the
problem but he has not done anything to change the situation
but delay withdrawal and put more
troops in Afghanistan to dismantle
Osama bin laden’s al qaeda that was armed by Zbigniew Brzezinski to fight jihad’s in afghanistan and will cost us more
american lives and dollars.
Zbigniew Brzezinski who is a
known consultant to president Obama and has stated it is just as easy to kill a million people as
it is to care for a million people wow that’s a bold statement
meet the new boss same as the
old boss

I would never hand my credit card
to president Obama I would be over my limit.

I am not a republican or a democrat or independent nor left
or right liberal or conservative
I consider myself a taxpaying
Patriotic American who believes
that our forefathers with great sacrifice created this nation
and would raise up and fight a
revolution once again if they were witness to what is happening now in a country they battled so hard to create.
I have lived thru nine
U.S Presidents
and never have I seen such worship for a president who has proved nothing and does whatever he pleases and our opinion as American citizens
regarding war and the spending of
our tax money is irrelevant

Hope ?
there is a future
for the next generation.

Yes we can?
Divert our troops from Iraq
to Afghanistan and double the
size of the war.

Change ?

More Troops
more taxes
more unemployed
less in 401k’s
more Forclosures while
handing our money to the very institutions who took our homes

Americans are seeing the world
thru rose colored sunglasses
and need to wake up and realize
that our new president is a lot
like our old president.

Except he is a better liar
and is forgiven every time
he breaks a promise by his
adoring fans who are more concerned with the first
ladies outfits and if fergie
will be at the Easter egg roll
Than how much more American
blood will be spilled in the
middle east and how much of
our tax dollars are being handed over to the elite rich bankers.

Opting out of the COP.
good point are we proclaiming
Obama the hero? when he did
nothing the navy seals saved this captain and are the true heroes the president has no training
in military procedures and the captain and crew our safe.
Thanks to the U.S military not
Our saviour, messiah, big time liar
Our Lord President Obama .

Bloodless: Cops actually protect United States citizens. The military ‘allegedly’ keeps us safe. Did they stop 9/11? USS Cole? Oklahoma City? First World Trade Center bombing? Virginia Tech?

Don’t you see the contradiction? The people who ACTUALLY protect you here in our ‘homeland’ don’t get the same respect that your ever-precious ‘warriors’ get.

Save all your ‘warrior’ rhetoric for bumper stickers for right-wing nutjobs to put on their Chevys.

The next time an ACTUAL country attacks us will be the first in 300(?) years. And, it’s my bet that it won’t happen because our compulsive spending keeps other countries nice and fat…….

Coach– Anyone who puts their life on the line for a cause higher than themselves, be it the police, fireman, or any branch of the Military/Coast Guard/Border Patrol, etc is worthy of the utmost respect for their sacrifices.

That said, it is your Constitutional right to criticize such institutions and people. However, it does seem in bad taste…a better aim for your bitter gall would be the leaders who misuse the armed forces in ridiculous imperialist ventures, not the soldiers themselves.

All those instances you were either failures of intelligence via civil bureaucracy, or lone-wolf nutjobs who are nearly impossible to stop anyway. At least come up with something a little more concrete to jusifty a bashing of the military.

Coach-
Why do you think the homeland has been attacked so infrequently? I have plenty of respect for cops (and other emergency responders). You are correct that they are often called upon to demonstrate tremendous heroism. The individuals who do so are worthy of more praise than I can convey in this little box. Still, I am skeptical of the culture of law enforcement as a whole. I am willing to make the concession that my opinion of their culture is biased by my own lack of experience with it. Are you willing to do the same for the military? Anyway, there is no contradiction in holding the military in higher esteem than law enforcement. Perhaps a lack of equal respect is unwarranted, but this is not a contradiction. I am perfectly willing to give credit where credit is due. Are you?

PS I drive an import and don’t display bumper stickers.

Ole,

I’ll buy into your definition as it applied to you and many of those you were with. But I can also cite a parallel perspective.

At the turn of the century (love being able to say that) I worked for a time for the DOD. The walls of the administrative offices were plastered with posters depicting U.S. troops in various aspects of combat and depicting them, liberally, as warriors. That smacks, to me, of idolatry at best and brain-washing at worst. To my recollection, none of the posters depicted a ‘warrior’ saving the life of a citizen; or even pulling a kitty from a tree.

Warriors make war, hence the name. “War”, to quote Remarque, “is hell.” It is NOT something to be extolled unless your job is to entice young people to participate in its propagation. If it truly IS a Department of Defense, why not call them Defenders?

Well, for one reason, recruitment would deteriorate because the bulk of the recruits do NOT want to defend, they wish to wage war. Note, if you will, I said ‘bulk.’ I have no doubt your experience differed markedly from what I have described but I submit that you are the exception that proves the rule.

Elsewhere, in another thread, there is discussion of radical Americans waging war on this country in general and on Liberals in particular. They see themselves, I would expect, as warriors of God and some righteous way of life, theirs, to be exact. They defend nothing, they wish to eradicate that which they find distasteful.

Are there Warriors in Iraq or Defenders? The ‘argument’ presented to justify their presence is that they were ‘defending’ this country. Is that your assessment of the situation? Methinks they are agents of the ‘Department of War’, on a mission to establish our way of life in a foreign land. Further, I believe that if we had a conscripted military they would NEVER have been deployed. Warriors invade countries, not Defenders.

Re: My last post.

I should’ve been more specific. My apologies to those who were affected by the attack on Pearl Harbor.

I was citing the minimal amount of attacks on THIS continent.

Again, my apologies.

However, Bloodless: Is there any way you can PROVE that our military and its actions are the reason we haven’t been attacked? If you can PROVE it, I’ll buy it. But, until then, it’s perpetrated propoganda appealing to emotional patriots.

Anti-war President Obama ?

Get a life! Nobody cares about your long-winded rant. Let me ask yuo a question…. shut up!

Coach-
You place a lot of stock in proof. Firstly, how can I prove a negative, i.e. why something hasn’t happened? Second, what constitutes proof to you? How about you offer a set of criteria? Are we talking a mathematical proof; something along the lines of a^2 + b^2 = C^2? I wonder if you can prove everything you think you know? Why don’t you prove to me from first principles that the sun will rise in the East tomorrow (relatively easy) and I will start generating a proof that the US military is a superior fighting force (very challenging). Or, we can just compare the relative strengths and weaknesses of each others contentions. My contention is rooted in actual experience – my military service. Although clearly limited in scope, this experience provides a wealth of knowledge that you can’t even begin to wonder about. What is the basis for what you are saying? Are you basing your opinion merely upon what you read or watch on TV? I am willing to stipulate any number of weaknesses and caveats to my contentions, so please don’t resort to this tired ‘bumper-sticker’ defense. I mean what I say. Nothing I am stating is intended to be used as propaganda or even mere self-aggrandizement. I am just trying to offer an opinion based on life-experience. I find it both obnoxious and a bit painful to witness people slandering something that I hold close to sacred. So, forgive me if my impassioned defense strikes you as overly rhetorical. I think, though, that you should consider the possibility that my experience provides a perspective that might just be beyond your comprehension. Again, this perspective is very likely not complete, but it should not be discounted.

DD-
Waging war requires the mentality of a warrior not a ‘defender’. It would be suicidal to go into battle thinking of oneself as a defender of peace. It requires more than the love of peace. It is essential to feel a passion to vanquish the enemy. I think that language fails to describe this distinction. Rereading everything I have written on this thread, I cannot deny that it has the ring of rhetoric. At the same time, I am merely trying to capture my experience using the clumsy tool of language. Being a warrior requires one to draw on emotions that are deeply rooted in our biopsychological existence and therefore, by its very nature, is difficult to describe completely. For example, I’ll bet you know the difference between love and lust, but if you were to attempt to describe the difference you would sound like some cheesy hallmark card. Nevertheless, your knowledge might very well be accurate. Anyway, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I encourage you to volunteer with your local USO and get to know some service members. I am sure that if you got to know a group of young soldiers, sailors, airmen, or marines, you would reach the conclusion that they share something special that indicates an unswerving capability and honor to duty. While this hypothetical group might not be the so-called ‘best of the best’, I think you would probably come to understand that this quality that escapes my ability to fully characterize makes them a potent force to be reckoned with.

Ole,

You make a compelling argument. I am loathe to continue. I shall leave the discussion as it is with the sincere hope that existing conditions in the U.S. Military more closely approximate your experience than that of mine. And add the caveat that if we’re REALLY fortunate, we may never know the definitive answer.

Comrade soon we will be smoking
Cuban cigars while drinking
Russian vodka.

Bloody oil: We may have gotten off to a bad start, so let me step back a second.

First, I, in no way, meant to demean our armed forces. My intent from the beginning was just to point out some things that are ‘assumed’ in this country. I.E.: They keep us safe. We owe them our freedom.

I was also trying to point out that you, or I, or anyone, can prove that our international affairs have kept us safe. Some would say that they keep us in harm’s way by creating more enemies.

Secondly, I was, originally trying to point out that propoganda is a large tool of the MIC. But, that, also gets tossed aside on most occasions.

Thirdly, I brought up the comparison to law enforcement to show that there is a definite difference of opinion in people’s minds regarding the two ‘industries’. Most(?) people in this country, while in the company of friends, would say they hate cops. However, you don’t hear that said about the military because they operate, mostly, overseas. In other words, they get away with things that cops don’t because we don’t see them.

And, YES, I do believe we have the strongest military in the world. I just disagree with how we use it is all……..

Coach,

Not surprising, I share your view whole heartedly. I am especially troubled by the quirky, illogical respect/support given our military by a considerable segment of the population.

“Support Our Troops,” bumper stickers implies, to me, a blind, jingoistic approval of the situation and tacit endorsement of what is happening. If we want to ’support’ our troops, we should get them OUT of harms way. If we DO put them in harms way, then we should do so with force and material enough to lessen the danger as much as possible. And we should care for them after the fact.

I am no ‘fan’ of the military, I believe I have made that clear, but I am LESS a fan of the ‘Brass,’ and even less of those who would use the military for ideological purposes.

AND, (and?) it would appear no one contests my assertion that we would not BE in Iraq if the draft were still in place.

Coach / DD -

Well spoken. I appreciate a distinction being drawn between military personnel and the orders they follow. In any military, including our own, there has to be some sort of discipline or faith that the leadership is making wise decisions. Without discipline/faith, no one is going to ‘take the hill’. This faith has limits and it is definitely a shame to same those limits tested. I would urge anyone, though, who would be inclined to think of military personnel as automatons to reconsider this point of view. There is a tension between blind obedience and self-determination that is needed to be an effective warrior – or maybe just a warrior who survives to fight another day. This tension is difficult to maintain and requires impressive willpower and moral courage. And I agree, it should be respected, not just by citizens like us, but public servants who make decisions about how our armed forces are used.

Coach / DD -

MCP ate my last post. Anyway, well spoken. I appreciate that you are drawing a distinction between military personnel and policy. My point is that in order to be a warrior, one has to maintain a tension between faith in leadership and self-determination. A military force cannot operate on consensus, nor can it accommodate individual points of view. Still, I recognize that there are limits to faith in leadership and that it is a shame that those limits have been tested.

Luck has nothing to do with it
this is destiny .
Brothers and sisters the dream has been fulfilled .

We are the ones that we have
been waiting for.

Have you made your pledge to
your country and president ?

After all we are change and
hope is on the horizon .

Reduce your carbon footprint
stop using fossil fuels.

Help your community donate
your time with community
service do it for your president
and country.

Now is the time for Change

Yes we can

The Dream lives Be a part of it.

Tomorrow is too late .

Jed Clampett

What is even more troubling is the number of people who think that just by having been members of that institution, honor, courage, respect and responsibility are bestowed upon them and they can identify with those virtues even though they exhibit none of them.

Some, the blind followers, buy the reprogramming of basic training without question, others understand that basic premise of living in a world so ruled by deceit… question everything and everyone, trust but verify, everyone is an individual with their own selfish needs and interests, don’t fall for their destructive ways. The exceptions are few but thankfully, they exist nonetheless.
Who goes willingly into military service at a time of peace?
There are those who feel the duty and calling to protect the weak and downtrodden (perhaps as a reaction to their own perceived oppression), ancient warriors, they understand the value of being powerful without being oppressive, the value of rectitude without hubris, of power exercised with kindness. The military has no use for these ‘natural warriors’ and when they receive them, quickly try to change them and assimilate them into a totally different culture. Fortunately for us, there are many of these that go into service and are not totally corrupted by the reprogramming, unfortunately since Vietnam, these are precious few due to the changes in the programming.

Others go in out of necessity. The lack of economic resources and jobs and their unwillingness to become criminals, leads them to join what sometimes seems like the only lawful profession, deathdealer. Unfortunately, many fit this group, they make perfect followers and are easily trained in any way desired. Totally malleable, they will follow any order without rethinking it as they were taught in reprogramming. These are the guys who will risk their career and their freedom by carrying out orders that they must have known were unlawful, yet succumbed to the programming that tells them to follow orders or face treason charges, extreme duress when you consider the punishment could mean death.

Then there are those who go in because they understand that it is the perfect place to commit crimes with impunity. The ability to murder others without remorse is rewarded, so they carry it out with gusto and no innate fear. Rape and pillage? merely the spoils of war. Too bad for the fools who were too weak to protect themselves. These make the perfect ‘new warriors’… merely pirates in disguise, following any ridiculous order or following any flawed ideology merely because they are commanded and paid. These take to the training and evolve it into a whole new level of hatred and evil. To these, self discipline is seldom effective, merely a disguise for their disdain for all things of this world. In my experience, these were the gangbangers that wanted further training in their art and spent countless hours in simulated war and killing. Those referred to earlier as they that are merely ‘doing their duty’.

A peaceful nation does not go to other countries and support dictators and despots because it is economically convenient. A peaceful nation does not overlook the anguish and pain their economic policies create in others merely because it would diminish personal profits. A peaceful nation, does not ‘preemtively’ attack those who are as much victims of a despot as it’s countrymen while ignoring the vile actions of a perceived ally.

While I recognize the need for a offensive force and tactics in protecting oneself from the greed of others, ignoring the build up of defenses is merely a way of inviting further attacks from those you’ve wronged with economics and support of criminals. A peaceful nation does not offend or feign taking offense to any little spoken comment or idea.

A true warrior does not follow despots blindly into the breech, they do not become tools of oppression of the weak and downtrodden, they know how to conduct themselves with honor and respect, and those who look down upon these qualities and ignore self control even in their manner of speech are not ‘natural warriors’ but merely deathdealers with backing from gangsters.

It turns out Obama lied about his giving two orders to shoot. The authority to shoot came from the on scene commander and was carried out four hours later. That’s not the first time Obama gave credit for something he didn’t do. Obama actually gave two orders not to shoot unless the hostage was in danger. That was a subjective order that the on scene commander used after someone saw a pirate point a AK-47 at the hostage (yep, about four hours from when the excuse to fire was seen and when the shots were fired).

The first chance at shooting the pirates came when he jumped overboard. The reason the SEALs didn’t shoot then because they were told not to do so.

The second chance to shoot the pirates came when a boat carried food to the life raft.

Obama also didn’t approve of the two ideas to rescue the hostage the military came up with.

Obama also delayed the SEAL team from boarding the destroyer for 36 hours.

Obama gave them the permission to use force if those in the military monitoring the situation deemed it necessary. Other than that, he had absolutely nothing else to do with the success of this rescue. He didn’t do a bad job by any means, but he shouldn’t be receiving any more praise than a man with common sense in this situation.

In the past nine to ten years over 100,000 Americans haved died in gun fights within our country.
And this conjecture is about how many people getting killed?
The real war is in our streets and is being exposed by the lack of needed law from our government!
The same goverment that gave us Vietnam, Iraq etc etc
The real war is all about the politics of money!
What sort of Christian nation is the U.S.?