“bailed out Chrysler once”

Indeed, I remember it well. Chrysler not only reimbursed us, but we actually made money on the deal. I’d be surprised if we ever see anything back from Paulson’s Wall Street pig-a-thon. Those cheap bastards won’t even use this money for what it was intended.

Jed Clampett

They are now paying the price for having colluded with the oil companies and tire companies to limit public transportation and innovations that would improve efficiency and durability as well as help the environment.

Peace

The taxpayers bailed out Chrysler once in my lifetime. How many chances do these bozoes get. It’s their product that brought them down and no amount of money will change that. Do the People really need a co-dependant relationship with Industry.

As Jon Stuart noted tonight, it’s comical how high the bar is for auto manufacturers when they bail out Bear-Stearns, AIG, Goldman, and CitiBank (twice) without batting an eye. At least GM has an actual product.

That’s sure a damning point, Coach. When you think about it, gov’t (Fed, state, city, etc.) is the largest employer in the country and sets the tone for standards. All they have to do is say they want xyz fuel efficiency (or safety or whatever) or they won’t bu-y.

Yet another way the gov’t subsidizes American industry. Instead of lowering the bar, as it does, gov’t ought to be raising it.

I wonder if Toyota is even allowed to bid. Does their ‘bid’ have to incorporate tarrifs? Are HumVees fuel efficient? We know they’re sure as HE-LL not safe.

If you look around, you can see where the deadly chemical combination of opulence, decadence and greed are dryrotting the foundation of this country. A lesser country would have already collapsed.

Foil: All true.

While we rip the automakers, we must also be wise to American Gov’t’s involvement in all of this. If they hadn’t been purchasing the amount of fleet vehicles that they did over the last 30 years, we might not be in this problem. They all would’ve folded a long time ago….

Coach,
I heard that GM sold the patent for the battery system on the EV-1 to Exxon Mobile who deep-sixed it to avoid competition for their petroleum products. Now GM has to re-invent the wheel for the Chevy Volt. Unbelievable!

Don’t let anyone fool you. American Automakers, first and foremost, aren’t failing. They failed a long time ago. The final nail in the coffin was destroying the EV1 ten years ago. And, let’s be completely straight here: It’s NOT because of labor wages. Period. Labor wages doesn’t explain the second-rate product.

Labor wages may be the reason that American Automakers decide to make a CHEAPER product. But, that’s their decision, not ours……

Correction: that’s 10%, not $10. My mistake.

“Toyota and Honda are not failing is because their workers on average get $47/hour as opposed to the $77/hour that Detroit pays their employees.”

Don’t believe everything you read in the Times. These figures are bogus. As stated by Mark Brenner (labor notes), the figure of 70 an hour is calculated by
“taking everything in the kitchen sink thrown into a calculation including double-counting over vacation time, FICA taxes that usually aren’t attributed to individual wages, and pension and healthcare costs not only for active workers but for retired workers as well. .. Actual average wages are $28.48 for production workers (a little higher for skilled trades)… Dropping all these costs would make about $10.00 difference in the cost of a car..” Workers have lost much ground over the last few years, in fact the 2007 contract was heralded as ‘historic’ at the time because the UAW made so many concessions.

Jed Clampett

Isn’t it interesting to anyone else how the ones with the power and control they have worked so hard to monopolize for such a long time and at great risk, will blame those without any power or much control over their own lives for massive failures of leadership?

I fail to understand how the common people could be faulted by the media for the actions of a very few elites that wish to avoid prosecution for their incompetence.
What is truly sad is how many of those poor and powerless are willing to accept the official story being mainlined to them and would choose to defend their tormentors.

Arresting the CEOs responsible of professional misconduct will go a long way to stopping the start of new fires. Why are we incapable of recognizing the pyromaniacs among us?

Peace

Tinman,

Whilst I honor the labor movement for the social revolution it spawned, I have a hard time reconciling the current entity with it’s predecessor. That said, Labor is NOT the problem. They’re no angels but are incapable of creating the perfect storm of financial disaster that is currently besetting us. That responsibility falls solely upon our elected representatives, chief among them being the executive branch which establishes, at least has in this administration, the ground rules.

Businesses, including labor, are just like children, they need a stern father figure to ensure they toe the line. I’m not implying that Obama need assume that role, rather that it be vested in the gov’t itself. For it to be given as Obama’s responsibility, then the oversight would become a toy of the executive. We need oversight to be beyond ideological vicissitude.

As an aside, I was reading about the Adams/Jefferson letters and Adams speaks of ‘ideology,’ a new term coined in the French Revolution. For those wondering about the etemology. Sure works better for me. What better test tube for ideology than the French Revolution. Although I’m not quite sure what the conclusion might be.

As Dickens pointed out, history is a class struggle. Are we to face a future as empowered individuals with potential to cross socio-economic lines, or as indentured servants to the fixed and immovable upper-class? The UAW represents one of the last vestiges of the labor movement that is largely responsible for some of the better aspects of our current work rights including the weekend, the 40 hour workweek, and the minimum wage. This movement has been greatly gutted by the Regan revolution and subsequent right-wing policies leaving us with little protection in the 21st century and beyond. This attack on the UAW is largely vacuous and is representative of the final death blow against ordinary people in this country. You right-wing apologists had better be careful what you wish for. You might well get it, sentencing yourselves and most of the rest of us to decades of servitude. If so, we’ll all be co-workers at wal-mart together.

Midman,

You could write books about what I DON’T know about economics. In fact, I think they have.

But from what I know about people, I know that precious few plying in the stock market good give a rat’s ptui about a better … rat trap. It’s gambling, pure and simple and if the gov’t kept as tight a fist on Wall Street as it does Vegas, I’d be a lot happier chap.

Coach, I’m not disagreeing with you that the CEOs and bankers share a large portion of blame for what is happening. At the same time, to excuse the UAW or the individual borrower of any responsibility in this matter would be erroneous.
I think it’s better for the automakers to go into Chapter 11 and re-negotiate contracts and reorganize the business rather than just be handed a bag of cash for them to piss away on the same old BS. That means no more 8 figure salaries or other perks for CEOs and the UAW will have to sacrifice some of their abundant compensation. Then, with the additional funds, they would be able to compete with foreign autos in making more fuel efficient cars.
As for the mortgage situation, when I bought my condo I had bankers telling me about no-doc loans, adjustable rates, interest only, etc. so I researched them and figured out what I could really afford and what the best loan for me was. Fast forward to now, I’m not worried about losing my home, because I educated myself about mortgages, borrowed an amount I can safely pay back and got locked into a thirty year fixed at a good rate. If more people had taken the time and put forth the effort to do the same, they wouldn’t be in the mess they are in. At the same time, predatory lending is a scourge that should be stopped and if people violated laws in the process they should be prosecuted.
Everyone is trying to pass the buck and turn it into a game of politics, but there is plenty of blame to go around to EVERYONE.

Not buuying it Midman and DC. Don’t blame this on the laborers.

There’s a funny thing going on here. The poor are being blamed for the mortgage/banking crisis. And the autoworkers are being blamed American Automakers’ failures.

1. The poor did not approve the loans.

2. The autoworkers union did not appeal/sue the government to overturn the zero emissions law. CEO’s of American Autoworkers saw that their profit margin would lower if they had to start making more fuel efficient cars. But, they chose to, instead, sue the government. Good choice, huh?

It’s simple. Pay the autoworkers less money. If they strike, fire them. People will take their place.

The United States elite put us in this mess no matter what anybody tells you. The rich bankers ARE THE ONES WHO APPROVED THE MORTGAGES AND THE CEOS OF AMERICAN AUTOMAKERS ROUTINELY DECIDED TO BUILD GAS GUZZLERS. Yet, they’re the ones getting bailed out.

Good riddance Bushdom. And good riddance to all your lemmings.

Coach, there is truth to what D&C posted. One reason why Nissan, Toyota and Honda are not failing is because their workers on average get $47/hour as opposed to the $77/hour that Detroit pays their employees. That is a HUGE cost differential. Detroit’s unwillingness to move toward greater fuel efficiency is largely due to their inability to do so without blowing their profit margin. With their CEOs making what they make and their laborers making what they make, it would have been virtually impossible to revamp their system and be successful. It’s as if their boats are so bogged down with spoils, they are stuck floating up $hit’s Creek and can’t get anywhere else. It’s time for them to throw some of those spoils back or drown.
Dennis, I’m not sure I understand your disdain for speculative income. While investors aren’t redesigning mouse traps, they are providing essential capital to companies in order for THEM to redesign mouse traps and expand and hire more people to do so. In turn, those companies share some of their profits with you in much the same way your bank pays you interest for storing their money with them. For many middle-class people (as was the case with me) those dividends and returns can be used to pay or at least help cover college educations. So taxing the shiit out of it might not be such a good idea.

No Nissan, Toyota and Honda are not failing, and they pay their workers 60% of what the average Big 3 line worker gets. See a connection?

My favorite ’story,’ along with the ones about ‘Detroit’ bu-ying up patents to prevent improved performance is their reaction, in the 70s, when they discovered that everyone was bu-ying the cheaper, Japanese imports.

They wailed and cried to Congress so a tarrif was enacted to make the imports more costly than those manufactured domestically. And what did Detroit do, why they raised their costs to MATCH what imports now cost. Just so they could make more money.

Screw ‘em. Screw ‘em all.

Good one Foil. Don’t let typical deflection blur the message. The message is this: American Automakers have failed. Miserably. And have nobody to blame but themselves. They are the ones who continually lobbied AGAINST fuel mileage standards, which is the reason they’re in the predicament that they’re in right now. Toyota’s not failing. Nissan’s not failing. Honda’s not failing…….

Saving the jobs is one thing. But, for GM/Ford/Chrysler to show up asking for money without any kind of plan whatsoever is completely ridiculous. YOUR PRODUCT IS FAILING. FIX THE PRODUCT.

Easy DC, you’re hyperventilating.

I excaggerated and over-simplified to make a point. Of course not ALL of your payments goes to interest. What, you quibble about the difference of a few %? It’s the principle of the thing I’m attacking.

My suggestion was, and is, to bail away, because it’s necessary, but for the gov’t to TRULY regulate thereafter. If it’s in the best interest for ‘Detroit’ to ’survive,’ and I think it is, then it’s a matter of ‘national security’ and needs to be governed as such.

And the UAW is equal in guilt, or more accurately, the Federal gov’t is equally guilty on both sides of the management/labor coin. They ‘let’ the auto manufacturers get away with their BS year to year and they ‘let’ the Unions get away with theirs. I think both sides could use a little ‘tough love.’

Speculative income, to my way of thinking, is the stock market. ‘Investors’ (speculators) are betting that the share of a given stock will rise, or fall, as the case may be. They are NOT designing better mousetraps. All they’re doing is accumlating wealth, and for what?

Capitalism would work if you could take out the human equation. Sans that, insert the gov’t equation.

Unfortunately, it would appear that Obama’s advisors do NOT subscribe to that theory. Odd, since all subscribe to the bail-out theory. How does one negotiate from non-governemnt interfence to bail-out without getting a little hypocritical mud on their shoes? Neat trick.

“if you REALLY want to save hundreds of millions, take a look at the UAW contracts”

Typical Republican BS. Always blame the worker. Was it the workers who decided to jettison the EV-1, se.ll the patent to Exxon-Mobile, so they could build low mileage SUVs for the last ten years? Did these ‘over-inflated’ contracts help save the workers’ jobs? I don’t think so bub.

I do not agree with the bailout of the big three autos. For the last several years the quality of their product has decreased significantly, all the while the benefits for employees have skyrocketed. Personally, I think they would be better off (as would many of the financial institutions, including Citigroup) going through Chapter 11 where the contracts in place could at least be renegotiated. The business plans of these companies are so bloated with ridiculous compensation afforded to the CEOs AND the workers that they are incapable of prospering. Throw in the fact that the government is imposing mandatory goals for fuel economy, pollution, etc. (which I think we need), and those businesses are unable to compete in the global market. For example, if you get laid off by Ford, you continue to get a salary, and if they offer you another job, you can say you don’t want it and continue to get paid to do nothing. That is bull$hit. If the CEOs are willing to give up their sweetheart deals and the UAW is willing to give up some of the spoils they’ve acquired I might be more willing to agree with a bailout. Nancy Pelosi was right, if they can’t come up with a solid plan, then they shouldn’t get any money, because it will only prolong their inevitable failure.
As for Citigroup, $400 million dollars to get their name on a baseball stadium while asking for a bailout, is criminal. Although, Taxpayer Field does have a nice ring to it.

Dennis:

There is SO much incorrect here. Not sure where to start!

1) “I buuy a house and in the first ten years, I’ve pain zero, zilch, nada towards the prinicple. I’ve been working 99.9% for the bank.”

There is SO much incorrect here. There are laws against loans where none of the payment goes to principal. You are paying small amount of principal each month and it rises over time. It was all documented in the loan papers IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT DON’T SIGN!

2)”at least GM makes cars. Sortta. What does Citi make? I know, loans, which then finance businesses that make things. But the obscene profits they make are, well, obscene.”

What are exactly are “obscene” profits? What was Citi’s profit last year?

3)” ’save’ all those businesses, even if we have to go into debt up to our eye-lids, but make it conditional. No more free luches. No more off-shore accounts. No more tax breaks. No more CEOs making more than the gnps of some small countries.

I doubt GM is losing $400 million a month because of free CEO lunches or even company jets! If the CEO of GM even makes $10 million a year, for a firm losing $4-5 billion a year, what difference does it make? They will lose $4.99 billion rather than 5.00 billion. WOW that makes a HUGE difference!.
Now if you REALLY want to save hundreds of millions, take a look at the UAW contracts!

4) “And tax the shiit out of speculation income.”

What is speculative income? If I have a better idea for a mouse trap and beat everyone to the market is that speculative income? If I see a trading strategy that makes me or my firm money is that “speculative income?”

5)”No U.S. companines owning overseas companies.” No off-shore acccounts”

Why? Should foreign firms be allowed to own US firms? Why not Quid Pro quo?

Ditto to what Dennis said…or, they shouldn’t get a dime. They way that they’re working these bailouts the only thing they’re doing is delaying the inevitable collapse of all of these companies. The auto industry, more than anybody, has made their own bed and they should sleep in it. My only worry is for the workers who are carrying the lion’s share of this burden…

I think that the government should bail out the automakers with a loan, and what your saying is mostly true. However, one reason I think this is because of the psychological effect. If Detroit had psychic effects they would have seen this coming.

Stop

If a bail-out is seen as ‘good’ for the country, such as Citi, Ford, et al, then go for it. Defending this country is what the Central gove’t is all about and it doesn’t seem to have any problem speending horrendous sums of money at the hint, real or suspected, of external threat, OR to spy on its own citizens if it deems in for ‘the greater good.’

What ‘greater good’ is there than in preserving the economy of this country? If we don’t have that then I don’t think terrorists are much of a worry.

That said, ’save’ all those businesses, even if we have to go into debt up to our eye-lids, but make it conditional. No more free luches. No more off-shore accounts. No more tax breaks. No more CEOs making more than the gnps of some small countries. And tax the shiit out of speculation income.

At least GM makes cars. Sortta. What does Citi make? I know, loans, which then finance businesses that make things. But the obscene profits they make are, well, obscene. (And I know obscenity when I see it.)

I buuy a house and in the first ten years, I’ve pain zero, zilch, nada towards the prinicple. I’ve been working 99.9% for the bank. Seems to me, if the banks didn’t have US, they they’d be bustin’ rocks just like the rest of US, so how do they come off treating us like shiit? 50% would seem fair.

No off-shore accounts. No U.S. companines owning overseas companies. CEO/Executive pay tied to some imperical standard. Those, and more (Andy Rooney) would be some conditions I’d like tied to the bail-out.

Marx and Engle were wrong, but so was Adam Smith.