Midman, I’m stuck on you repeating ‘official account’. What, in any fantasy land, makes ANY account ‘official’??

First of all, regarding the pentagon, IT’S ONE OF THE MOST HIGHLY SURVEILLED AND SECURE BUILDINGS IN THE WORLD. Yet, you’re willing to believe that there ISN’T video footage? That’s my point. Why isn’t there footage? And, if there is, why are they keeping it from us? You seem to be focused on some ‘official’ account of how the buildings fell. Well, sir, I’m here to tell you that’s the easiest thing to spin. These other questions are simple, profound, and fundamental questions regarding the ‘attacks’. But, again, the legend of ‘My Son Would Never Do That’ exists. Just because you believe that the U.S. Government had nothing to do with 9/11 and its execution, doesn’t mean it didn’t exist. And, furthermore, you’re not doing a very good job supporting yourself here. You mention all the coincidences without even taking a second look because of them, but are more than willing to accept somebody’s ‘official account’……….

Nev erthe less. 9/11 WAS a conspiracy of some sort. It didn’t just happen in a vacuum. It’s funny. But, some people think our gov’t is too dumb to pull something like that off, but are willing to lend credence to the intelligence of terrorists, giving them full credit of course………..Pure denial. Period.

SWIM,

There is a plethora of evidence available that the official narrative is full of beans. This is not the forum to present ‘evidence’, but if you are interested (as I said before) take a look at Scholars for 911 truth. They neatly dispute the Pop Mech version point by point.

If I were to claim to know every detail, we all know I would be full of it. I support a REAL investigation. I do know what didn’t happen, and that’s the narrative that is being propped up by the MSM and the powers that be.

We argued this point every which way to tuesday two years ago on the Taibbi post. Frankly you will never convince me with the paltry evidence you have. I believe my eyes.

BTW, I agree with you on the ‘war on drugs’.

Tinfoil where is your evidence that such a plan existed? You make these claims, but you don’t provide anything to back it up. At least the official account has science supporting it which you choose not to accept.
According to the Zogby poll it was 42% of Americans believe in a cover up, but at the same time according to a Harris poll, 64% of Americans feel that Saddam Hussein had a “strong” tie to Al Qaeda which we all know not to be the case. So let’s not put all our stock in public opinion.
Jed, I apologize for asking for REAL hard evidence that supports your theory. Rather than providing said evidence, you instead provide a condescending and arrogant little diatribe. I suppose we have just come to expect that from you.
Regarding the war on drugs, it is an idiotic war that will never be won, because people will never stop using drugs. In the end humans will always be drawn to things that make them feel good hence they’ll always be drawn to drugs. Legalize them, regulate them and tax them and drive the drug cartels out of business.
And by the way, I’m sure that if the same events were to take place next year under Obama you will all be just as skeptical and will hurl the same allegations as you are now.

Jed Clampett

Bushney didn’t plan it, they left that to the professionals we trained in Afghanistan against the Russians. The skulls merely had to put trusted political appointees in place that would quash any investigation that would lead to prevention of the attacks. Like the FBI investigation into the guy that only wanted to learn to ‘fly a commercial airliner, not land or take off’. Bushney did their part well, all they needed to do was guide public opinion and plunge the country into a war that is very profitable to those in the Military Industrial Complex and their investors, they merely had to s.ell the lie. There were several key events that would have prevented the attacks, but all those key events were conveniently ignored, that wasn’t because of Naivete.

‘Uncle Ted’ may be gone for now, but his legacy will remain for a long time. The Corrupt Bastards Club is still in full effect. By no stretch of the imagination do I think that decapitating the beast kills it, if that was the case, killing Pablo Escobar would have ended the Drug War a long time ago.
BTW, why is that WAR taking so long? Are we really that bad at conducting war efficiently or do we not have well defined goals? Too profitable to end perhaps. Another case of ‘too big to fail’?

Peace

SWIM,

Yeah, and I have some ocean front property here in Nebraska I’d like to se11 you. BTW, Most likely such a plan long preceded Bush/Cheyney, though they would have had to approve it. Also, almost 50% of American’s DON’T BELIEVE the official account. It is no longer a fringe issue.

Still with the 9/11 conspiracy. I doubt that it was anything other than what is the accepted account of what happened. Bush and his ballwashing cowards are far, FAR too incompetent to pull something like that off.

But the point of this blog is that the cancerous parasite that is ted stevens is FINALLY out.

The Damage done to America’s soul, world standing, Economy, and a list to long to list here, are the direct result of the rightwing GOP ideology that Govt. is bad. Govt is holding people back, Govt Can’t Govern.

Bushies embrace Facism as a ideology, they call id being a “real-American”.

The marriage of Govt and industry, and the hyper-nationalism, are some of the hallmarks of Facism. Factor in the attacks on any dissent and “them” and we have Facism in the 21st century, this time it’s wrapped in an American flag, banging a bible.

With this election the recovery America can begin.

Still with the 9/11 conspiracy. I doubt that it was anything other than what is the accepted account of what happened. Bush and his ballwashing cowards are far, FAR too incompetent to pull something like that off.

But the point of this blog is that the cancerous parasite that is ted stevens is FINALLY out.

The Damage done to America’s soul, world standing, Economy, and a list to long to list here, are the direct result of the rightwing GOP ideology that Govt. is bad. Govt is holding people back, Govt Can’t Govern.

Bushies embrace Facism as a ideology, they call id being a “real-American”.

The marriage of Govt and industry, and the hyper-nationalism, are some of the hallmarks of Facism. Factor in the attacks on any dissent and “them” and we have Facism in the 21st century, this time it’s wrapped in an American flag, banging a bible.

With this election the recovery America can begin.

Jed Clampett

Yea meltdown, until you can show me evidence, hard evidence… meaning papers signed by the president and members of his staff and carrying the presidential seal, I will not accept or believe there is anything that deviates from the OFFICIAL account, regardless of how covert and secret such an operation must have been.
You see, I understand that government, particularly ours, always works to the benefit of the whole rather than just a few empowered individuals. I am so trusting, that even though the most surveilled and secured building in the world was struck by something as large as a commercial airliner, at such a strange angle that most military pilots stand in awe at it’s accuracy, the fact that there is no real hard evidence of this is inconsequential. I believe everything the matrix feeds me because it’s alot easier than waking up and facing our distorted reality.

Peace

Meltdown, the lack of a video showing the plane hit the pentagon is not evidence that there was a conspiracy, it is merely evidence that no video footage exists of a plane hitting the pentagon. If you can show me any document that W and Cheney were given that said that four airplanes were going to be hijacked and flown into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, not to mention be differentiated from the dozens of other threats they receive on a daily basis, I’ll concede your second point. As for your issue with the insurance being taken out, it isn’t unusual for large commercial buildings to have huge insurance policies and whether those policies were taken out just days prior to September 11, could be coincidence, if those policies were in fact taken out days before and there is evidence of that. Regarding “pull it,” if you ask anyone in the demolition field, “pull it” does not mean to detonate and Larry Silverstein later said that he meant to pull the firefighters out because the building’s structural support system was irreparably damaged and the building was going to collapse.
Tinfoil, Popular Mechanics did quite a fine job explaining all of the myths the conspiracy theorists came up with and did so with independent experts. Not to mention they did a better job of shooting down the theories than Fetzer, McKinney and the rest do at presenting them. Personally, given all that W and Cheney have f@cked up in the last eight years, I don’t think they’d be capable of pulling off the biggest conspiracy in the world without leaving any clear, irrefutable evidence behind.

“Do you think a third plane was supposed to hit the third building?”

Uh how bout united 93?

DirtyGuy,

Here’s an interesting quote:

“I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, ‘We’ve had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.’ And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.”

Larry Silverstein

TinMan,

Not one, not two, but THREE buildings collapsed in a way never seen before or since. Do you think a third plane was supposed to hit the third building? And no one told the ‘button man’ there was only two?

SWIM,
There is a vast amount of official disinformation in both cases. I know that its difficult to deal with the idea that our government would do such things. I found it excruciatingly difficult myself. However, the official “scientific explanations” do not hold up to any kind of scrutiny. When you read official ‘debunking’ be sure to check the response from the other side, and in each case there are responses. It is the defenders of the official story that end up wrapping themselves in logical knots. There is NO WAY that a steel framed building can fall down on its foundation in that way without the help of expertly placed explosive charges. It has NEVER HAPPENED in history, and it didn’t happen on 9/11. If you have a viable ‘explanation’ to point me to, please do. NIST couldn’t explain it, Popular Mechanics couldn’t either. Their explanations read like pulp fantasy.

Downer,

In CC’s world, as in many others herein, if he agrees with you, you are wise and measured; if he disagrees with you, you are a propellor-head.

I need a new rubber band for my beanie.

TinMan, is your propellor solar powered?

Al Gore for Secty of Interior.
Sam Nunn for Secty of Defense.
Voker for Treasury, of course.
Eliot Spitzer for AG. What? Oh, never mind.
Bill Clinton for UN Rep.
Al Franken for HUD.

And why are they talking about yanking all those Governors out of their offices? Leave them there. You don’t want to gut the state level to support the national.

Midman: As always, regarding the falling of the towers, there’s going to be MANY scenarios that would lead to them falling. But, since you’re such an expert on the whole ‘proof 9/11 was all middle eastern terrorists’, then answer the following (which happened to be overlooked earlier in the post):

1. Why no video of the Pentagon (one of the most secure and surveilled building on the planet) getting hit by a commercial airliner?
2. Why did Dick Cheney schedule war games on the eastern seaboard knowing full well that day that there was a terrorist plot (he and the president had the intelligence 35 days prior).
3. Why no explanation for the amount of insurance taken out on the 3 buildings that fell (owned by the same man) and the amount of ‘puts’ in airline stocks days before the attack?

And, CCo: Nice rebuttal bro…

Noble attempts at logic and reason Middle. Alas, you’re on RS.com. No matter what you say can change these people’s minds. Absolutely nothing.

Actually Tinfoil, many of the questions raised by the 9/11 Truth Movement have been answered scientifically, but since those answers don’t point to W and Cheney as the responsible parties, those answers are ignored. The collapse of WTC 7 has been explained - serious damage done to the building by debris and collapse of WTC 1, fuel tanks in the building continually fueling the fire for 7 hours which doesn’t melt steel, but does cause it to weaken and buckle, and it was the overall design of the building with a system of columns and trusses that dispersed the weight, but due to the damage of some of those lower columns, other columns were carrying more weight than they were meant to and hence collapsed. So it was much more than a “little fire” in the corner of the building. Actually Tinfoil, many of the questions raised by the 9/11 Truth Movement have been answered scientifically, but since those answers don’t point to W and Cheney as the responsible parties, those answers are ignored. The collapse of WTC 7 has been explained (serious damage done to the building by debris and collapse of WTC 1, fuel tanks in the building continually fueling the fire for 7 hours which doesn’t melt steel, but does
As for the JFK assassination, there were only a handful of spots a second shooter could have used to shoot from the front and right of the car. The only problem is at that angle, the bullet would have hit Jackie O as well, which we all can agree, did not happen. As for the “magic bullet” theory, that doesn’t take into account the fact that Connolly was sitting in a seat both lower than and several inches to the left of Kennedy. When lined up with where they were ACTUALLY sitting in the car, their wounds line up at the exact trajectory of a shot coming from the sixth floor school book depository. The Mannlicher-Carcano may have been a cheap-a$$ed gun, but investigations and trials or re-enactments, if you will, have shown that that very weapon could have very easily done the job. In said re-enactments the bullet fired ended up looking exactly as the one found (magic bullet) at the hospital. I saw the movie JFK and wanted to believe in the conspiracy theories and actually did for several years, but eventually the evidence to the contrary became too overwhelming for me to ignore anymore.
Not everything that happens in real life has a plot twisting script behind it.

Jed Clampett

my, how moving. Am watching the republican’t senators give their thanks to the senior senator from Alaska for turning the senate into a den of thieves and working to secede Alaska from this vile union of government excess. Priceless!! like the Cali cartel thanking Pablo Escobar. They must be proud that after so many years of corruption he only suffered 7 felony indictments for accepting UNREPORTEDunreported gifts.

Peace

Wow, TinMan, don’t equivocate; take a position.

At the basis of this is human nature. Are humans greedy and selfish? Check? Will they do the unthinkable to achieve their ends? Check? Will they lie and cover-up? Check.

AND (and?) is there a sizeable segment of the people who will believe anything the ‘authorities’ tell them? Check.

What DOES amaze me is that there have never been any ‘death bed confessions.’ I would have thought with JFK that that would have happened.

Keep up the search for truth. And if Cheney should fry as a result, well, we’ll just have to live with that unfortunate outcome.

“You don’t need a weatherman to see which way the wind blows”
Bob Dylan

BTW,
The forensic examination of the content of the bullet fragments is not at all conclusive, the report concludes with a call for further analysis (which will happen when hell freezes over).

scientificblogging.com/new s/who_assassinated_jfk_modern_ forensics_takes_a_shot_at_the_ answer

Also, no one has ever even attempted to explain the collapse of WTC Building 7. A little fire in the corner of the building caused it to collapse in on its own foundation (again at virtually the same speed as an object dropped from the roof). Explain that one SWIM (or Taibbi).

By the way, that article was the genesis of my moniker. I am proud to be a thinking conspiracy theorist. Dismiss me at your own peril.

SWIM,

I have studied both these circumstances and I could not disagree more.

The 9/11 truth movement is raising valid concerns about the official story, which has never been explained scientifically. In fact, when NIST was tasked with explaining the collapse of the tower they conveniently ignored vast numbers of eye-witness reports and facts that were inconvenient. Even then, they refused to analyze the actual collapse and what could possibly make a steel-reinforced tower collapse in on itself at the speed of gravity. Pulverized concrete and pools of molten metal smoking for months afterwards were obviously not the work of a few gallons of Airplane fuel. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Please google “scholars for 9/11 truth” and take a look at the video evidence for controlled implosion before you comment further on this. The official story is so full of holes that anyone who scratches the surface uncovers a plethora of fetid rot underneath. The 9/11 commission report is a complete whitewash.

As far as I know, the majority of 9/11 truthers are raising valid questions, but are slammed for not knowing all of the details of a alternate narrative (as if anyone could). They are lobbying for a new investigation, not to have Bush Cheney prosecuted for anything. Defenders of the official narrative take that tact of shooting holes in alternate narratives without any attempt to explain what happened.

The JFK (for that matter RFK and MLK) investigations are similarly full of holes. Anyone who has watched the Zapruder film and has an ounce of sense can see with their own eyes that the shot came from in front and to the right of the car. The idea that Oswald could have produced all three shots with that cheap-assed rifle is ridiculous. All gun-savy witnesses stated clearly that the sounds they heard came from a high-powered rifle, not a cheap-assed Mannlicher-Carcano mail order job. Evidence of cover-up is so obvious that anyone who claims otherwise is either an ignoramus or a government operative.

Apparently Stevens in conceding and some kids caused the fire in LA.

With AK going ‘dem’ now, maybe the party was a little premature in cutting Lieberman some slack. Screw expediency.

Meltdown: Can I apply for a job in the Justice Department? I can say lots of big words………..

Coach, I’m with ya. I understand the huge change that is taking place. What do people want Obama to do? Bring in fired Division I-AA football coaches to work in Health and Human services???

Another topic:
Where’s John McCain now? We are starting to send missles into Pakistan on a weekly basis…..Isn’t McCain supposed to be outraged?

Coach,

We’ve got change, there’s no doubt about THAT. But given that we only have two parties in power, it should come as no surprise that a lot of names are being recycled. But the names from the Clinton/Gore past aren’t high-level folks. There’s definitely a new breed.

If Volker wants the job, I hope he’s offered Treasury. Wish he could assume command now. I think CONGRESS should stay in session, we ARE in a crisis, and they should keep Paulson’s feet close to the fire.

I don’t know about Hil’s qualifications to be Secty of State although you’d have to say she’s as qualified as Rice and/or Powell. What ARE the qualifications for Secty/State? Tact? Power? I think Hil would be a good choice for the reason you question. She’s a lightening rod (and can take it) and she’ll be good ‘cover’ so Obama can do what he does best, scheme. And Lord knows he’s going to have to do a LOT of scheming to undo this mess.

Besides, Hil has ‘experience.’ She can ’serpantine’ from the plane to the hanger with the best of them. We wouldn’t need to clear the area of snipers before we sent her ‘in.’ Think of the edge that will give her in negotiating. Forget ‘boots on the ground,’ we’ll have ‘highheels on the ground.’

On another note, regarding the ‘usual suspects’, and whether or not this is ‘change’.

We just had an election whereby the electorate elected an african/american president, and gave virtual filibuster-proof majority to democrats, who were in the minority two years ago. IF THAT’S NOT CHANGE, I’M NOT SURE WHAT IS……..

DD, it’s my contention that the media is trying to make a big deal out of the ‘usual suspects’, er, ‘Clintonians’……Remember, without drama, the media wouldn’t exist in the 24/7 cycle.

Anyway, this whole Hillary for Sec of State thing is probably more fanfare than anything. Too much drama for an Obama who’s been anything but…..

Sallad,

I haven’t found one yet I feel ‘comfortable’ with. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of ‘middle ground.’ They’re either VERY sophisticated/erudite, or Slander Sites.

The nice thing about this site, AND a bad thing, is you don’t have to register, etc. I know that’s not a biggie and I’m just lazy but I like that laissez fairre attitude. Unfortunately, it means we have to put up with a LOT of crap, too. It’s a trade-off.

Me, I’d LIKE to see more Commentator (I prefer that to commenter) submitted stuff. I don’t think TD cares, at least he hasn’t in the past.

I would like to see more discussion/scrutiny to the two subjects just covered. And they seem to be inclusive.

What’s Obama doing ‘going in’ and what’s Georgie Porgie doing ‘going out.’ I’ve heard what you described, but can’t believe it’s in the constitution. They would NEVER allow a chief executive to pardon himself OR his cronies for future crimes.

I think I’m more troubled, however, by TinMan’s implication that Obama’s rounding up the usual suspects. That does NOT bode well.

I like how we’ve pretty much taken over this blog. Somebody poses a question and the rest answer/comment. It’s more interesting than the crap that’s been the cornerstone of this blog for the last 1 1/2 years. Do you guys post on any other sites/blogs?

True, true. I don’t really know very much about it at all. But, with Bush’s record, I won’t be surprised if he tries these type of shenanigans.

Dallas (er, Sallad), if that’s the case, then wouldn’t it make SOME sense for most presidents to do exactly that: pardon themselves for any future crimes uncovered??

It seems to be an odd piece of power given to the president.

The way I understood is that GWB can pardon himself and anyone in his administration for any future crimes. Congress would then have the opportunity to impeach him. But, why would we think they (Congress) would do anything different now??

Coach,

Tnx, I see that goes back to July in Salon. This brings up some tantalyzing legal questions. Can you pardon someone not indicted, let alone found guilty? If so, is that not implicit recognition of guilt AND a circumvention of the justice system?

If Georgie Porgie wants to pardon, fine, but ONLY after being found guilty. Of course, he won’t be Prez then, will he.

I hope the weenies in Congress don’t cave on this one too.

Midman: Your analysis is acknowledged. But, regarding 9/11, I think the main sticking point between the conspiracy theoriests and the deniers is the unanswered questions. Those, for me, are:

1. Why no video of the Pentagon getting hit by a commercial airliner?
2. Why did Dick Cheney schedule war games on the eastern seaboard knowing full well that day that there was a terrorist plot (he and the president had the intelligence 35 days prior).
3. Why no explanation for the amount of insurance taken out on the 3 buildings and the amount of ‘puts’ in airline stocks days before the attack?

Answers to those 3 questions would go a long way toward refuting the conspiracy theorists. But, as far as I can tell, nobody’s answered them. The only rebuttal has been ’scientific’ findings regarding the fall of the buildings.

And, YES. 19 middle easterners pulled it off. But, some think they had help.

Tinfoil - I think one reason why many like Taibbi blow off the 9/11 Truth movement is because there seems to be an unwillingness of the group to acknowledge scientific fact or anything else that deters from their adamant belief that George W is such an evil person he sacrificed the lives of 3,000 innocent Americans in order to get involved in two wars. Many of the people that are part of the movement have no training or expertise in the fields they are talking about, but have convinced themselves that our government did this and nothing will convince them otherwise. That is fanaticism and there is no reasonable discourse to be held with people like that. Much like the forensic evidence from JFKs assassination points to three shots coming from the sixth floor window of the schoolbook depository, people often ignore the facts in favor of the fantasy because its too hard to believe that a nobody like Oswald (or 19 Middle Easterners) could pull off such a monumental event.

DD, there’s a rumor going around that a ‘blanket pardon’ will happen for everyone involved in ‘counterterrorism’…….which includes Cheney, Bush.

How about the lawsuit against Cheney and Gonzalez down in Texas? Is this something or just a bunch of hot air?

Yeah, this blog has gone steadily downhill since the 08′ presidential races started late in 06′. I have to disagree about Taibbi though. I like the verbiage that he uses. Although, he did promise a long time ago that he would write the third installment of his 9 /11 piece explaining the science behind the collapse and the reasons for building 7 to come down….so, yeah, it’s way overdue at this point. I still have hopes that the truth will eventually come out. Who knows though?

Remember when Tim would put a thread in that had four or five different topics? Sigh, those were the good old days.

TinMan,

I have no grudge against Taibbi; I just don’t like him and agree with your assessment.

As to your post, it’s disquieting at best. While I didn’t expect the incoming administration to be trumpeting, “We’re gonna get’cha,” I didn’t expect them to be glad-handing everyone either.

Coach,

Explain. I’ve missed that.

Hopefully, the quiesce we’re witnessing herein is prepatory to an infusion of new blood. Methinks JD is suffering from burn-out.

Personally I like Naiomi (she’s smart, radical, and HOT). Has anyone read this one (which SHOULD have a link to it in this blog)?

rollingstone.com/pol itics/story/24012700/the_new_t rough

OK, I admit it. I’m still holding a grudge about his searing dismissal of the 9/11 truth movement. Without so much as a modicum of investigation he slammed the entire movement. Blatant ignorant bandwagonism if you ask me.

Not a big Taibbi fan, long on verbiage and short on substance.

“the argument is that they were only following orders”

That didn’t work for the Nazis at Nuremberg.

Wouldn’t it be an unconstitutional and impeachable and prosecutable offense if Bush pardons himself? Doesn’t that effectively remove the ‘rule of law’?

Need a topic? Here’s another one:

Bush is getting ready to pardon himself. HIMSELF!

Earth to Congress: He’s admitting a crime…….

Tin Foil -

I hear you. The discussion are much more heavily attended in Taibbi’s blog. And, the posts are more interesting, too. I suppose T.D. is on vacation or something.

It’s pretty disgusting when people get a pass for torture. I suppose the argument is that they were only following orders from their commander-in-chief. Still pretty disgusting though. As for the wire-tapping, we’ve always known the Dems are working for the telecom companies just as much as the Repubs are.

Lacking topics for discussion, I’d like to bring this up:

“John Brennan and Jami Miscik, both former intelligence officials under George Tenet, are leading Barack Obama’s review of intelligence agencies and helping make recommendations to the new administration. Brennan has supported warrantless wiretapping and extraordinary rendition, and Miscik was involved with the politicized intelligence alleging weapons of mass destruction in the lead-up to the war on Iraq.” DemocracyNow 11/17/08

“[AP].. Barack Obama’s incoming administration is unlikely to bring criminal charges against government officials who authorized or engaged in torture during the Bush presidency. Two Obama advisers said there’s little—if any—chance that the incoming president’s Justice Department will go after anyone involved in authorizing or carrying out interrogations.” DemocracyNow 11/18/08

There hasn’t been a new post on this blog for almost a week. What’s up? Is RS discontinuing National Affairs in favor of Taibbi’s blog?

I’m not sure that ANY of us (@ least those of us under 80) are really prepared for what might happen now. Batten down the hatches mates, we may be in for it. To get some idea, check out this mp3 available for free (today only) at:

thislife.org/Radio_Epis ode.aspx?episode=368

The first segment is interviews by the late great Studs Terkel of people who lived through the great depression. Powerful stuff, greatly recommended if you have the stomach for it.

NPR was talking about how he’s also reversed some postions as well.

Apparently, some think helping the consumer should be part of the equation and some good ideas are being floated. Unfortunately, Paulson does not seem to agree.

C’Mon Volker …

Merk,
Fair enough. This is all in the realm of ideology anyway. I’m more of a pragmatist. From what I’ve seen, there is more evidence for the Keynesian model, but I am not an economist.

BTW, Paulson has reversed course on the bailout several times. The original figure was 700B, but as of now the amount doled out is around 2T (that’s TRILLION) and still counting, and NONE to the people who really need it. Yikes!

TinFoil– Agreement wholeheartedly on the Paulson comment…this whole b.uyout business scares the hell out of me, much more so than terrorism or how Obama will do as prez…the fact that we just CREATED $700 Billion is troublesome to the nth degree.

I tend to be from a more self-reliant school when it comes to govt– leave the citizens free and unencumbered, while keeping the govt mostly in the background…I guess above all I’m a closet reformer; I see a lot of spending and bureaucracy in the federal government that can be cut, overhauled, or tightened up (our tax system, immigration system, and various entitlement programs to name a few)…I see where you’re coming from, but I think that government protection, at least too much of it, can be a bad thing

CCo: That post by ‘Coach’ was by me, ‘Meltdown’. Didn’t bother to check the Name box…..Sorry Coach.

CCo,
here’s some more:
oldamericancentury .org/14pts.htm

Prop Sniffle: So, a country can’t be called fascist unless it resembles Italy or Germany??

Figures you’d come up with some kind of ‘assinine’ deflection.

1. Perpetration of propoganda regarding the need for military intervention into a sovereign nation (Iraq).

2. Using military where one isn’t needed. (To take out Saddam).

3. Allowing media monopolies in order to ’saturate’ the market with fascist message.

4. Villainizing dissenters, calling them ‘unpatriotic’.

5. Last here, but definitely not least, the creation of ‘Homeland Security’. Not for nothing, but isn’t that coincidentally liken to Hitler’s Germany?

Sniffle: Opinions vary, obviously. But, to call me assinine because I disagree with all Bush policy and can see similarities to fascist regimes of the past is a bit out of line. I could say you are the pot calling the kettle black, but that might start a race issue. What I CAN say is this: Seems quite the coincidence that you’re ’silently’ admitting Bush’s failure in foreign policy. What’s next, you’ll admit his failure in domestic policy?

I’ll make it easy on you. Bush has failed at every single venture he’s ever put his hands on, the United States included. Period. Jump on board now, or be called a two-faced lemming later……

Merk,

Basically agreed. Bush’s plea for non-interference rings hollow after just overseeing the largest government intervention in the history of the country.

It also is convenient that Bush (who is as lazy as any president in history) feels that he can do nothing and everything will be better.

As a certified liberal I also tend to think that government has a role in protecting the rights of the little people. As it is now, the machine is running us over while Paulson is running beside it with a gas can making sure it doesn’t run out of fuel.

Merk,

You frame your argument in such a way as to be irrefutable, but your conclusion is valid. The gov’t SHOULD be a referee. A referee can issue penalties and eject players if necessary. I’ve seen none of that by this or any administration in the past 50 years.

The basis for the ‘intervention’ argument is the massive financial support companies receive from the gov’t. If you accept the largesse you accept the consequences, which have been, sadly, missing.

Interest how you choose not to cover the odd (illegal) occurrences taking place in the Minnesota senate race, Tim.

By the way, Meltdown, calling Bush a fascist is a slap in the face to anyone who actually had to live under fascist states like Italy and Germany in WWII or the families of those murdered in the Holocaust. That is Fascism; Bush had a bad foreign policy. As with everyone who leave such asinine opinions on this blog: get… some… perspective.

Tin Foil– Perhaps…I am of the school that advocates as little government interference with the economy as possible (which is not the same thing as limited regulation, which I am all for)…to me, too much government involvement is a problem. It often exacerbates a problem with more bureaucracy and other slowdowns as opposed to solving it…If huge government involvement really worked and didnt stifle initiative, then the Soviet Union would still be propped up, and all of the various 3rd World countries who propped up their govts who propped up their home industries with the central govt. would be first world powers…maybe I’m out of step with the times, but let the market right itself with some modicum of regulation (which has not happened in the last 8 years, so I’m not at all supporting the Bush style of economic governance)…it always has, and always will…why entrust the economy to a body that can barely handle the issuance of passports? Government was not created nor designed to handle such a burden, but it can handle a “referee” type role…

Republicans continue to prove that they really have no clue about the financial meltdown. President Bush, speaking to the fascists in the Manhattan Institute yesterday said:

“History has shown that the greater threat to economic prosperity is not too little government involvement in the market; it is too much government involvement in the market.”

aHem.. History has shown no such thing. As a matter of fact, recently is the first time that Friedman’s Chicago-boys theories have ever been so fully implemented. The regulatory ground rules were finally removed and greed took over. It is this adherence to ideology over reality that will spell the doom of the Republicans. Wake up right-wingers! Those who refuse to change when faced with the failure of their philosophy are destined for history’s dust-bin.

Send him packing!

I don’t pretend to understand what Alaskan voters look for in their elected officials, but I don’t think you should be allowed to be a Senator if you’re not even allowed to vote.

Either get rid of the “felons can’t vote” rule or get rid of Stevens.

he he hee. ha HA! hee oh my.

i know i shouldn’t laugh, but see it’s been so damn long since one could.

and now, dimestore kkkoolaid is self imploding. should be fun to watch.

Dime: Fascist leftists? Do you even know the definition of fascist? Er, ‘facist’?

Read it. You’ll see a GLARING similarity between the definition and the actions of this CURRENT administration.

But, then again. I’m probably talking to a kool-aid drinking lemming of the hardcore radical right-wing KKK Lynch Mob……..

Jed Clampett

Can’t believe it has taken so long to get rid of this crook, and unfortunately, it isn’t over yet. Wish he would get to spend the rest of his life wearing horizontal stripes with the general population at Quentin, but if history is any indication, even his incarceration will be a posh existence at club Fed. Too bad this was a conviction akin to Al Capone… even though he was a thug, murderer, embezzler, extortionist and Master of Arts crook, in the end he was taken down by ‘tax evasion’, if he had paid his taxes would he have been protected? By any means necessary I guess.
Now, if we could only get the rest of them that are entrenched in our legislative body and political class helping their cronies enrich themselves at the middle and lower classes expense for decades (term limits would be nice).
Hopefully the new Justice department will use the intelligence gleaned from the Jack Abrahmoff scandal to investigate others using the same tactics and subterfuges to reap illegal wealth.

BTW- did you know Randall ‘Duke’ Cunnigham, recently indicted and incarcerated for accepting ‘gifts’ to steer huge defense contracts to a friend’s company (earmarks), was a Vietnam ACE, his craft was the first with 5 confirmed kills. Who could have imagined that someone that served his country with valor and skill would later turn those traits to selfish endeavors and treason (stealing from his country). Nothing is impossible I guess.

Peace

Coleman next!!

Dime, there is no proven voter fraud in the last 4 elections. It may have happened, but we’ll probably never know. The GOP voter suppression shenanigans, however are well documented.

No sympathy here. Ted’s problems are entirely his own doing. Now GOP senators are taking steps to boot Stevens out of all his committees, it can no longer be argued that Alaska should vote for him for any reason.

Another election on its way to be stolen by the facist leftists. Good job manufacturers of voter fraud.