Tim,

I have to give you credit, you are a incredible.

I am curious how you were able to know what exaclty the tax rates will be when passed by Congress, and amount of itemized deductions Mr. Plumber has along with the fact what increases or decreases in federal deductions and credits will take place in 2009.

Not only were you able to do that, but you were also able to exactly model John McCain’s tax plan as modified and passed by a Democratic Congress.

You really are wasting your time at Rolling Stone.

He has no plumbing license (it is required by the county he lives in), he owes $1200 in back taxes, and he might be related to Charles Keating. More talk, please.

Who cares if Joe is a plumber or a carpenter or a doctor? The point is that Obama plans to play Robin Hood. Somehow Mr. Obama thinks he has a mandate to take from one and give to another. I don’t know about you but I find that more than a little disturbing.

I do not make any where near 250 grand. But if you are asking me to sign on to Obama just so I can recieve a ‘tax break’ at someone else’s expense — no thank you. I’ll work for what I get… that includes Rigid Seasnake Micro Camera

P.S. Tim, I simply will not stop talking about this

I thought the question was what his taxes would be if he owned a business that makes over $250,000?
Businesses file at the individual rate.

McCain practices class warfare by stealing from the middle class and giving to the rich. Continuing Bush’s tax cuts for the rich while doing nothing about the rising cost of living (including health care and education)is a form of class warfare against the middle class that we don’t need four more years of.

let’s say he makes 250k and has 50k in deductions…
doubt he’ll make 250k as a plumber in a 2 man company…
filing as head of household (has kids)

current tax 48955
obama 49604…$649 more…

but under obama he would get more credits:
health care
small business
etc.

so he would actually end up with MORE cash, NOT less…

the guy is a liar…
he’s not a licensed plumber
he doesn’t pay all his taxes, he owes for years…

All I really needed to know about this article was in the title. Joe the Plumber would “get more” from Obama. It is this entitlement mentality of the left that disgusts most reasonable people, including Joe.

“What’s in it for me?” they ask. “How much will you GIVE ME?” they want to know. “How much will you take from those evil, rich bastards?”

Creating one’s own wealth is not something to look down upon – something to be punished. It should be celebrated. One should be able to enjoy the fruits of his labor, not subject to increased fines used to hand out to those with less ambition and determination.

I do NOT want a handout from the government.

90% of joes companies contracts were for government work
military
schools
housi ng projects…

joe also skipped out on his rent in mesa az…

he’s a deadbeat…
doesn’t pay his taxes or rent…
and he’s ‘worried’ about POSSIBLY paying 700 more on 250k in income?

he’s not only a loser, but delusional

I don’t think it prudent to stop discussing the issue. If he only is making 50 grand right now, fine…but how much savings does he have? I thought the crutch of the discussion was if he wanted to start a small business and thus would be forced to file at the single rate, Obama’s plan would have a larger tax rate for him. Granted, if he owes back taxes maybe he doesn’t have very much savings, but I think it’s perfectly within his right to question Obama’s tax plan as it applies to his future goals. Kudos to McCain for bringing it up, and kudos to Obama for explaining his ideas further.

Jed Clampett

Here’s an idea…

Instead of making the most screwed up tax code on Earth even more complex. Let’s do away with it and rewrite it.
First, no more handouts or sweetheart deals for huge corporations. No more wasteful spending for companies like Custer Battles and KBR that work on a cost plus basis and then don’t pay their employees what they are supposed to. No company with more than a million dollars worth of profits needs my money or yours or mine to make it.
Any company that registers more than 3 years of losses looses any assistance as well. Why help morons that can’t run the business.
Any company paying anyone in their executive or director boards more than 50 times the average salary of their employees gets taxed at 175% of the flat rate. Today in America it’s not uncommon to see this number be 700 times or more, that is pretty close to exploitation.
A flat rate of 20% for all except those making less than $50 thousand a year. Unless you live in BFE, at that salary you should be considered working poor.
Small start up businesses get tax breaks and grants to help them get started for the first 3 years. Any more than that to turn a profit would be helping a loosing proposition.
And to fund it all. Hire an army of regulators, train them well, then set them loose to go over the tax returns for the last 5 years for individuals or families making more than $250 thousand or businesses with return of more than three quarters of a million dollars. They will be scrutinized for how they have hid their money from the tax man or how they have abused their employees or the system. Anyone who knows they did wrong and repents and pays on their own is allowed to pay for what they wrong in greenbacks and continue working. If the regulators have to find you and take your to court, then a minimum of 10 years in jail for stealing from the nation. A decidedly unpatriotic, therefore treacherous, act.
No more tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas or take advantage of countries with lax labor and environmental laws. We have laws against those things in this country for a reason, we shouldn’t allow our companies to do them in the rest of the world.

I have a feeling that just by scrutinizing the tax returns of those that cheat the rest of us and punishing them thoroughly, we can reduce the deficit and probably start working with a surplus in a few short years.
For God’s sake, put enough people in the few regulatory jobs that we have left so that the regulations are actually meaningfully enforced.

Peace

Jed,
I actually found myself agreeing with a lot of your tax proposals. Initially, a lot of it made sense.

But then you had to go and propose letting the Govt dogs loose on the populace. You act like anyone making over your made up amount is an assumed criminal that needs to be terrorized by Govt goon squads into doing the right thing.
You trust the Govt more than the people.
So much for Govt of and by the people. And then you sign off with your usual. Peace.

You are acting like a fascist in a peace/love hippie disguise and are too arrogant, to know it.

You really are a scary M@ther F#ckr

PEACE!

Can someone tell me the point of this article?
Joe wasn`t talking about his tax rate now, he was talking about what it would be if he bought the company and made over the two hundred and fifty thousand magic number.
I guess he doesn`t want to work hard and then have Obama spread his wealth to a bunch of dead beats.
Can`t say I blame him.

Again what`s the point of this article?

I give kudos to John McCain for manufacturing all this hype about Joe the Plumber. Watching the encounter between him and Obama, I was absolutely impressed by the consideration Obama paid to this man and by the intelligent, thoughtful, and caring way in which he answered his questions. His answers made sense, especially when he reminded Joe that the health of his business will depend on whether less fortunate people- waitresses, bus drivers, and so on, have the money to hire a plumber. This is what he meant by ’spread the wealth around’ and McCain utterly mis-characterized it into a welfare program. Of course Joe, like any small businessman, would be dependent on the free market for his business income, and his success will greatly depend on the relative wealth of his customers. If he is thinking of starting or owning a business in Ohio right now, where unemployment and layoffs are increasing day by day, you would think he would be more than happy for Obama’s taxcuts to the middle class. And since he doesn’t yet own that business and is just an employee, he should be happy to receive Obama’s tax cuts. At any rate, I would like to see everyone be as respectful and considerate of Joe himself as Obama was.

Jed Clampett

Being that we live in a country where Joe the Plumber makes more than teachers, I can understand how you would be confused. Since I’m familiar with your previous posts, I understand why you would react with such lack of civility. The republican party seems to attract your kind for some reason.

If you pay attention to what is going on around us, you will realize that only 3% of the population make more than $250 thousand. That is not the populace, that is the oligarchy. Businesses making more than three quarters of a million dollars are the exception rather than the rule. Usually large corporations that can handle the scrutiny. (do you not find it sad that this is the case in this country, considering the wealth available and the productivity of the populace?)

Are you truly serious about ‘You trust the Govt more than the people’ comment? while I’ve said nothing of the sort… you do realize the government is composed of people, right? It is those people that abuse the powers of government that screw it up.
In a time when your preferred party has politicized the Justice department, allowed Executives to wreck the economy, misrepresented that they would run a responsible telecommunications eavesdropping program and bought off on a soc.ialist program to protect the profits of foolish investment managers instead of homeowners, you think I should do different than what is so clearly stated in our money. Trust in God, your fellow man have proven themselves to be extremely flawed.
At least with government I can hold them to some accountability… somewhat.

I enjoy that you devolve into mis-characterizations and sensationalism and even profanity, however. It tells me that you understand that I’m right and that you have no real argument to counter with, so you resort to banality. PRICELESS!!

BTW, since you’ve been gone for a while, I’ll write the complete sign off for you.

Peace… because war is just plain stupid!

Joe gets a couple hundred bucks with Obama UNTIL Obama lets the Bush tax cuts expire. Then he is an extra grand in the hole!

Wise up, bozoz

Tricia McMillan.

What a wonderful it’s been, although I must say I didn’t care much for the recent movie about me, er, us. The BBC radio series was MUCH better.

It’s been established that Joe has no plumbing license (I haven’t seen proof of the additional accusations – yet) So when John McCain made that crack last evening at the NYC Al Smith Memorial Fund Dinner about how Joe no longer had any financial worries, because he’d “been hired by a wealthy Arizona couple to take care of their 7 houses”, Senator McCain might have cause to regret that act of humanitarianism.

Well, at least he found time to get to Dave this time.

Thanks, Jed, for using the word “oligarchy” which I’ve been tossing around in my life since W got elected, and on this column since I started contributing. Most of you, please look up this word in your dictionary, if you have one, so you might be able to understand why this is NOT a republic or a democracy, and therefore really does call for redistribution of wealth of the top 3%.

Zeeblebrox is behaving himself.

Excuse me, another mistake or typo, by me. My opening phrase was meant to be “What a wonderful DAY it’s been.” Would that I could stop this, but until I get the hand of Earth computers again……
well so be it. I try to catch them
before I publish, but if I don’t at least I apologize.

Would that all commentors had any manners.

Sorry for my mistake(s)and have a good day.

Interesting: you forget to mention the whole point of the story.
Obama told Joe, he wanted to spread the wealth around,
not his wealth, our wealth.
How does it work: If 95% of the people are going to get help,
But only about 60 % pay taxes, I guess that explains the spread around part. If I have two houses; He Obama, will take one because I only need one, and give one to his friend in Chicago who don’t have one. It’s only fair.

Jed Clampett

Does it seem to anyone else that Joe was BSing about the purchase of the business he works at? Hardly likely he will be able to b.uy it next year on only a $40k a year salary and debts of back taxes, not to mention the difficulties of raising a young son on your own and running your own business at the same time.

Peace

Jed Clampett

The internet being what it is today, they could find definitions, references and differing views if they actually tried. A good place is dictionary.reference.com/

Pea ce

Redistribution of wealth today, abolition of private property tomorrow. Karl Marx must be proud.

Seriously, Obama already supports the 2nd and 10th planks of the Communist Manifesto. And he’s not far from the 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Quite the slippery slope.

You are telling me that I don’t deserve my own money? Someone else needs it more? Why don’t they earn it themselves? Is this really the precedent we want to set for our children? Don’t worry kids, you don’t need to go to school, or get a good job, or ANY job for that matter. We’ll just take money from people who worked hard and EARNED it and give it to you.

If you vote for us that is….

Redistribution of wealth today, abolition of private property tomorrow. Karl Marx must be proud.

Seriously, Obama already supports the 2nd and 10th planks of the Communist Manifesto. And he’s not far from the 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Quite the slippery slope.

You are telling me that I don’t deserve my own money? Someone else needs it more? Why don’t they earn it themselves? Is this really the precedent we want to set for our children? Don’t worry kids, you don’t need to go to school, or get a good job, or ANY job for that matter. We’ll just take money from people who worked hard and EARNED it and give it to you.

If you vote for us that is….

Sam’s Son,

Those people get their money the old-fashioned way, they manufacture it. They surely don’t ‘produce’ anything. And they don’t ‘contribute’ anything, save their own excessive wealth. Their ‘emphasis,’ as it would seem is the country’s, is in producing $$$$, not producing goods.

I believe what Obama, and we, are saying is that we need to change the playing field so the rich can no long dictate to the Executive and Legislative branches how ‘business’ is conducted. Presently, they have the playing field, the officials AND the rules all in their pocket.

You’re not afraid of measuring ‘wealth’ via production, are you?

If you are going to jump on people for not paying taxes lets not leave out Al Franken, Charlie Rangel and any number of Republican politicians (Spiro Agnew anyone) that have done the same thing.
Jed, I think your plan makes more sense than most that I’ve heard. There are several issues at hand. For one, corporate taxes in this country are much to high at the current level (even Rangel agrees to that). What company is going to stay in the US when they could pay 11% in Ireland where people speak English, and there is a highly educated population to pull workers from? Also, the government has virtually stopped going after the big tax cheats because they can afford to draw things out in court and make it expensive for the government, so now they go after the little guy that can’t afford big name attorneys. That will most likely continue to be a problem under any plan.

Here is an e-mail I received that paints a pretty clear picture as to how tax breaks work.

Tax Lesson – Let’s put TAX CUTS in terms everyone can understand.
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our TAXES, it would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that’s what they decided to do.
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.”
Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men – the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.
So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
“I only got a dollar out of the $20,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,” but he got $10!”
“Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!”
“That’s true!!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get $10 back
when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!”
“Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison. “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!” The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up!
The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

Midman: When it comes to our national security, which is everything from defense of intruders, to safety of imports, don’t you think it’s imperative that the rich do their part? How much money do you expect the poor to pay?

What I’m getting at is this: There’s only so much poor, middle class can contribute to society before it actually breaks them. However, the rich, on the other hand, are afforded the ability to contribute much more, albeit against most of their wills.

You can villainize Obama’s tax plan all you want. But, realize that taxes are just a wedge issue. They’re not going to make or break you. At least it’s easier to track the taxes of the top 1% than the remaining 99%.

Besides all that, Bush LOWERED the tax rates of the rich and Obama just wants to put them exactly where they were. If he was running for president in 2000, his tax plan would be ‘more of the same’, instead of a raise……..

I see your point Meltdown, but the tax cuts that were given to the middle class (yes, there were tax cuts that went to the middle class) are due to expire at the end of 2010 and if they are not renewed, then those middle class people will see a tax hike. As for the poor, I don’t expect them to pay any taxes which they don’t, so that is a moot point. I think the death tax needs to be eliminated as it is unjust to double tax people. By the by, Warren Buffet says that he only pays 15% in taxes and that isn’t right. There is nothing preventing him from opening his checkbook and sending an extra check to the government. Not to mention he could split the shares of Berkshire Hathaway so members of the middle class could afford to b.uy them and reap some of the financial rewards. Lastly, the numbers show that when you cut taxes, historically, you see an increase in revenue, provided one doesn’t increase government spending. By the way, I think the rich are doing their part. The top 10% income earners pay 68% of the US income tax. That leaves 32% to be covered up by the other 90% of us.

Mid: Point accepted, but I guess, the more I think about it, the reason I think the rich should pay more, (other than the previos stated reason), is because of the influence they have. They have the ability to lobby and contribute to campaigns at a very influencing level. Middle-classers aren’t afforded that same opportunity. Therefore, by having the ability to steer legislation, I think the rich should have to pay slightly more (individually, percentage-wise).

Plus, it’s about time we started taxing religion, isn’t it? Their influence should be recognized and taxed as any industry is……Wala! There’s the money necessary to get us out of our hole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Plu s, it might weed out all the fraudulent churches…..

Jed Clampett

Isn’t it interesting that the Founding Fathers felt the companies should pay taxes for the privilege of doing business within the country and the people should not have to pay taxes at all? Seems that has been turned on it’s head, particularly when you understand that Wal-Mart won’t build a store in any locality that does not give them tax breaks and deferments.

Be careful on how the discussion is framed, do not lump businesses in with the populace when talking about taxation as the right wing likes to do. It is their way of dissembling, distracting from the real issues.
The Founding Fathers were soc.ialist in nature and would be appalled by the oligarchy that has been set up in today’s America. You see, most of them were concerned with the ‘greater good’ rather than their own selfish desires as current leadership seems to be.

Peace

Jed,
It`s called righteous anger. If you read my comments. I gave you kudos for some of your tax plan ideas. What pissed me off is your willingness to let the Govt dogs loose on your fellow citizens. And you`re right. That will always get my ire going.
You are so into this class envy crap, you have developed a hatred for those who you think are rich.
And you try to hide it with all this we are the world BS you keep trying to peddle.
I don`t care if you make $10,000 or $10,000,000. Nobody should be the target of Govt harassment, period. It`s not American and it never stops at one group. If that makes me a whatever, so be it.

Dennis, we know that wasn’t you. That was either Midman, Merk, Dr. Puke, Dazed and Confused, or Karl Rove.

Bottom line is this: Those with the most money have the ability to influence legislation in a more profound and real way than those without money. And, the answer to that from the conservatives is to lower their taxes? Which allows them to lobby even more, and control their wealth.

BTW: Midman, you said the poor don’t pay taxes, so it’s a moot point. How naive can you be? Federal taxes are taken out automatically if you’re employed. Poor people don’t have enough wealth to own their own business, therefore control their revenue. Their taxes are gone before they even see them. So, percentage-wise, they don’t nearly match the amount of the rich. But, morally speaking, it’s shameless for the poor to get taxed more percentage-wise than the rich.

Funny how a christian nation has such a hard time dealing with sharing. Didn’t Jesus share quite a bit????

Sure looks like I’m sending a ‘hot one’ to Jed, doesn’t it.

MickeyMouse software.

Amazing;

So many intelligent people on this blog, and yet you don’t really get what the tax issue is about. This isn’t ALL about giving money away to people that don’t deserve it..

You have to spend money on general infrastructure or stuff falls apart. On health care specifically, you have close to 50 million uninsured people, and way more than that who would be ruined by a major health problem.

I’m going to be upfront – I’m from the UK. I used to be complacent and even critical about the national health service back home, but time and distance have given me great perspective:

There’s a guy where i work who broke his ankle in February. It’s still broken. He’s a driver for our company, and he’s working less and less becuase of his injury. Let me be clear on this; I’m not a rich person. I earn 80K per year and my wife 20K, and I would gladly pay MORE taxes to help out people like Ben and millions like him.

I have no idea how so many people in such a fantastic country like this can be so self centered and heartless.

“I have no idea how so many people in such a fantastic country like this can be so self centered and heartless.”

Because those who are self centered are Republicans. All Republicans should be slaughtered like the rodents they are. Without Republicans peace in America will reign.

If Obama “wants to play Robin Hood”, then what is Bush? The tax burden in this country is mostly born by payroll taxes, the rich have recieved multiple large tax cuts. Bush himself referred to his base as “the haves and the have mores”. Bush must be King John!

Jed and Dirty D,

Sorry to you both.
The posting from DirtyDennis | 10/17/2008, 7:29 pm EST to Jed

Was actually a reply from me (PartyCrasher) to Jed.

In case you are both scratching your head in confusion.

PC

Coach,
It was actually me, replying to Jed.
sorry for the mistake. don`t know how I put DD`s name in.

Karl Rove helped with the text.

PC

DD, Coach, Jed, TFH and all other interested liberals…..

I am copying and pasting a post from someone calling himself/herself GOD, in case you have not already read it in these postings:

GOD | 10/17/2008, 11:35 pm EST

“I have no idea how so many people in such a fantastic country like this can be so self centered and heartless.”

Because those who are self centered are Republicans. All Republicans should be slaughtered like the rodents they are. Without Republicans peace in America will reign.

End quote from god.

Now I`m not trying to say that most liberal/progressives agree with this hate. But there is a hard core under current of this type of intolerance among a disturbing amount of those on the Left.
And for every hate rant you find on right leaning blogs there are ten on the left wing blogs. 10 to 1.
That`s why we conservatives don`t trust the left with our civil liberties if they control both the executive and legislative branch of Govt.
Too many libs want to shut us up if possible.

And why is RS allowing the advocating of genocide to be posted?
I`ve been censored in the past just because I criticized TD.

10-1 huh? Yeah right. Anyway, the difference, dear PC, is that you can easily find intolerant speech on right-wing blogs and media which is sanctioned by the official source. You have to go to the comments (the unwashed masses) to get that from the left.

Jed Clampett

We already knew that was you dweeb.

Another tactic of the right wingers. Put out an outrageous statement, attribute it to the opponent and then use it as an outlet for your outrage and terroristic attempt to scare people into voting for your side.
We saw these techniques used by the military for 20+ years in my country to keep the Junta in power.
The CIA taught it to them, they learned it from the documents confiscated from the Nazis after WWII.
PRICELESS!

What do you think it means that they keep bringing up the term ‘Class warfare’? Scare tactics? some would consider that terrorism.

Be aware that the ‘wealthy beyond intelligence’ are quite willing to unleash the ‘goon squads’ as they did those that were trying to organize into unions during the times of the great depression. They are more than able to entice a ‘class warfare’ and survive it. Unless we use the techniques taught by Moses, Ghandi, ML King, Mandela…

Peace

PC,
Talk to Jed and DD about the list of ‘forbidden words’. They have found that comments with these words do not get posted visibly.

Now I have actually had posted comments removed by the administrator. It wasn’t exactly clear why, but they didn’t like my comment. Given the vast and sweeping criticism of Tim’s blog-posts which is evident on this comment board, I tend to doubt your claim. Of course, unless we can talk to the blog admin, anything we say about it is about as significant as blowing farts into the wind.

Jed,

I disagree with just about all PC says, but I think he’s a stand up guy and wouldn’t post, intentionally, under a different name. We’ve all been ‘bitten’ by that stupid name window. His bad luck it was my name.

I have yet to see a pattern to what is and is not allowed herein. I made a reference to TD that I shant repeat now lest all this typing be wasted. It vanished. I’ve had others that have also been ill-treated.

Then, like TinMan says, we see some outrageous mierda thrown his way and it remains. AND IF HE’S GONNA DELETE SOMETHING, WHY DOESN’T HE DELETE THOSE REPEATED UPPERCASE bs’ we get from time to time.

As to PC’s ‘issue.’ While I’ll stand by my usage of John Mill’s quote about conservatives being ignorant, I will state, unequivocally, that most are decent folks and don’t deserve to be eviscerated (??). Even if they ARE responsible, DIRECTLY, for the mess we’re in.

I reserve my loathing for that 10% that are actually running the show. The ‘intellectuals’ in the think tanks, the moneyed scions convoluting every learned scholars economic philosophies and those religious zealots trying to maintain the middle ages.

PC, if you had followed my instructions in “Quote Of The Day,” you would have been directed to a thread where I stated, “YOU are NOT The Right.” You’re a sympathizer and an anti-left, a whole different subject, but you are NOT the source of the problem.

The fact that you fail to see that your party has been hijacked by folks who actually believe they have been chosen by God to lead DOES lead us, certainly me, to lose patience with you.

Jed Clampett

He posted the GOD comment so he could rile against it. He knows none of us here are espousing violence or anything of the sort. But he needed something to help him out of the beating he’s been getting.

Peace

PC, yes, there are vile comments posted on left-leaning blogs. But, then again, there IS that freedom of speech thing. And, your 10-1 thing is a bit far-fetched. While us ‘bloggers’ have a tendency to post aggressive statements against dissenters, it’s because the conservative message is archaeic to us, and completely non-evolutionary. The conservative message, to us, can be nailed down to one particular message: It’s all right if it’s all white. Like it or not, that’s the jist of that message.

Now, as far as the 10-1 thing. Seriously?? Have you ever listened to Rush Limbaugh or Bill OhReally, or Sean Hannity? Yes, Keith Olbermann spews vicious sometimes. But, it’s all in rebuttal of comments made by the right-wing spewers.

One thing you must realize pretty soon, is this: We don’t have conservative people, we hate the new conservative. The old conservative doesn’t exist anymore, because, actually, the old conservative had liberal traits. Not anymore, period, whatsoever.

So, again, it’s the message, not the people. On the other hand, it’s my belief that conservatives hate the WORD liberal, let alone the actual liberals……….

Thank God for Obama…….

PC,
I personally do NOT want you to shut up. It would be a boring place around here if it were just liberals agreeing, or agreeing to disagree on minor points. You bring the fire, and that is why I am here.

That aside, I’ve noticed is that many of you cons like to come to liberal blogs and post comments. I think most liberals consider this a good thing.

Many of us libs would do more of that on conservative blogs, but they typically do not seem to be as open to contrary thoughts. They might allow one or two comments but the quickly shut down and block any liberal who’s comments make too much sense (that is if they even deign to allow us to comment at all). I have banned from a few conservative sites myself.

From what I’ve seen, it’s not the Left that is oversensitive to new ideas.

Explanation? Bob Altemeyer has done decades of research at University of Manitoba. I believe he has the answer. Not to say that all cons are authoritarian followers, just a significant portion. Further, he finds that NO LIBS are. Interesting reading for those interested in the blind spots created by authoritarian thinking.

home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~alte mey/

Tin Foil– Though in disagreement with many a Con myself, I have nonetheless found that too many Libs are also authoritarian in their heeding to their prescribed dogma…to each their own, but it always makes me cringe when Libs and Cons paint each other in such broad swipes that it borders on hyperbolic parody

Personally, let one say whatever they wish…they have the right to say it, and its not my right/duty to impugn on someone elses beliefs, no matter how wrong I think they are

Merk,
Have you read the paper? I don’t think that Altemeyer went into this thing to paint anyone anything. His data is compelling. Give it a read and get back to me.

Tinfoil– yes, I read some of it…whether he’s right or wrong, I dont know. I’d have to see exactly how he was basing his information, how it was collected, who was asked. Did he conclude his data to presuppose his point?

With Obama on the doorstep of the Presidency, all this talk of authoritarianism may be moot in any case

I don’t think it’s Moot, Merk.

(Sorry, HAD to do that.)

If Obama is elected, submissiveness, which I think is a better term, won’t go away, it will either transfer to him or fester and grow beneath the surface. From what I read of Mr. Altemeyer’s work, it made total sense. In fact, my initial response is/was, “Why haven’t I seen this articulated before?”

Kennedy and Johnson were powerful personalities. Carter was not. Gore and Kerrey were not. Mondale? Dukakis? I can easily see all the elections of the past 50 years being held up to, and explained, by Mr. Altemeyer’s assertions.

Now, was his test fair and balanced and his analysis unbiased. Who can say. I CAN say that I’m not NEAR what he considered the norm.

QUESTION AUTHORITY!!

I don’t see any ambiguity. He includes the questionnaire that he’s used over the years, and even encourages you to take it. He defines the methodology for each study he performs. If you read the paper, your questions will all be answered.

Dennis– I fear the same…to many people are into Obama the personality, not what he stands for, other than the vague catchword of “change,” which is a loaded term. Whether people really want more govt intrusion remains to be seen, but what choice do they have? Both mainstream candidates are offering their own versions of it…

And you should know by now that I have no problem questioning authority, in addition to being snarky and curmudgeonly

Merk,

Snarky? That’s a gotcha? Had to look it up. Good, though, nice call. But I’ll bet you got it from your Grandpa.

By the way, I don’t think you ARE snarky. Confrontational, and that, as we both agree, is good. As long as it’s accompanied with a smidgen of lucidity, a rarity with too many posters.