1st thing Torture DOESN’T work. Th Info is almost uniformly useless.

To say “The objectives of these techniques is not to cause severe physical pain.” Makes my head implode. If the techniques don’t cause phyisical pian. Then what are you using them for?

I had hoped that someone at some point would have said to these modern day Facists that we are Americans and we are better than that. We don’t sink to a monsters level to defeat to defeat the monster. If we do the monster wins. I guess not.

Winkled? WOw, you don’t hear people dropping references to marine gastropods and the difficulty of removing their meat from shells everyday.

A war criminal on the 9th Circuit.
Don’t get angry find a way to get justice served no long how it takes. I am starting to get determined.

I guess ALL depends on what the meaning of “torture” is — kinda like the meaning of “is” was for Bill Clinton! OsiSpeaks.com

It was torture just trying to read the definition of torture. Of course the reason for such a convoluted definition is the army of “civil right” lawyers that crawl out of the wood work to protect the “rights” of these murdering thugs. We live in a world where just a few people can cause the death and destruction that it use to take a nation with large armies to cause. Let`s do the math, thousands of innocent lives versus the mental stress of someone who would slice the throats of you and your family and sit and eat a sandwich while you all bleed to death. And the people that are trying to protect us have to worry about being sued or maybe charged with a crime. You throw around the word torture and Fascist. Google the word “beheading” and see what torture really is. Then look into the cold eyes of of real evil. See if that gives you nosebleed. That`s if you have the stones?

Jed Clampett

the cold eyes of real evil?… you mean the eyes on the criminals that would send you children to a war in a foreign land, without the benefit of adequate preparations or the advice of military professionals in order to steak petroleum and distabilize the region so your cronies in the oil industry can make more profit than your country? Yea, it’s easy to recognize real evil, they send your children to war with the stroke of a pen and then go off to a brothel in their bently to play with a couple of prostitutes that cost $5 thousand a piece.

That’s who your referring to, right?

It appears the Cons took their lead from… Jack Bauer?

http://www.slate.co m/id/2195864/

you’re all a bunch of candy-ass fairies. jeez.

Yeah thats right Anonymous/Jed Clampett or whatever the hell you call yourself, “Those evil people sending my kids off to war for oil profits etc, etc…boring”. Yeah, that`s who I`m talking about. I mean, can you come up with anymore stereotypes and cliches. Have you ever had an original thought? Or do you just recycle DNC talking points to make all your arguments? I`ll bet you haven`t Googled “beheading video” like I suggested. No sense in letting the facts get in the way. Go ahead and take a look, if you got the balls. Then see if you can find some cliches to explain away what you see. And while you`re at it, go stick an Obama sticker over your Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker on your car. It`s so over!

Not me waaaa!

Yeah, that’s the answer. Sink to the depths of humanity, like our enemies, to ensure our “peaceful” democracy. Two wrongs ALWAYS make a right. Right, aversa? But hey, as long as that makes you feel better, I’m sure the rest of America doesn’t mind suffering the repercussions. “It’s so over” is right. If you’re referring to the retarded, neoconservative plate-o-$hit we’ve all been fed for the last 8 years.

Aversa seems guilty of an all too common misconception: life began when he/she became cognizant. We’re got several thousand years of evidence to reveal the wisdom of the philosophical approach to conflict espoused in his/her missive. Evidence that would, I submit, suggest that many of their ilk have failed to get the message.

Instead of fueling your fantasies via voyeurism on You Tube, I suggest Aversa might read a book.

Aversa, please…..

Why don’t try actually justifying the wrath of this administration. Or, are you, honestly, going to say it’s okay for us to do whatever we want, whenever we want, to whoever we want, wherever we want because of one beheading? Was that beheading here in America? Were we being invaded by Iraq? Was bin Laden hiding in Iraq?

It IS over. Neocolonialism hiding under the umbrella of democracy and freedom while pilfering the resources and privatizing the reconstruction effort. In fact, what IS the republican message anymore? Or, does it actually change misstatement to misstatement?

Wow! Reed a book. Tanks Dirty Dennis. Yu made me see da lite! I bin so dum. You said “Fueling my fantasies via voyeurism on Youtube”. I not know wat dat meens, but it shur sounds intelagint. But I hav a queshon, wats a book?
Let me quote what you said about me, “We’ve got several thousand years of evidence to reveal the wisdom of the philosophical approach to conflict espoused in his/her missive”. Well let me quote that great philosopher Chairman Mao ” Power comes through the barrel of a gun”. And as long mass murderers like him believe that, we better have a bigger gun. That`s not fantasy. That`s reality. And if you think if we lay down our arms first, people of his “ilk” will do likewise. Then who`s living in a fantasy. Besides criticizing me, whats your solution to protecting our country from those who would destroy us. But before you answer, I give you the same Google challenge. If you areat least willing to know what we`re up against, I may respect your opinion better.
Stop being such an elitist, thinking those with an opposing view are all uneducated dupes.

Glad you asked Coach. Now see if you can connect the dots.
No, one beheading, not done here, doesn`t justify us doing whatever we want. But it does describe the nature of the enemy we are up against. And those responsible for 911 and many other attacks on us around the world have the same nature. And it`s been more than one beheading, bombings etc.. This is a world wide movement who are quite candid about their goals. A world ruled by Radical Islam, and to get there, they know they have to destroy the US as it exist today. They are the ones with “Wrath”. If the US under any president really wanted to show wrath Iraq and Afganistain could have been leveled without spilling American blood. And would you guys stop with the liberal rant cliches like “Neocolonialism” etc. etc…
It don`t make sound any smarter. It`s just tedious and makes my eyes glaze over.

And, these ‘beheadings’ have been around forever. So, it’s pretty pretentious to think that America can do anything to change that.

Aversa,

We have witnessed over 2,000 years of doing it ‘your way’ and what have we gotten? Still doing it ‘your way’ and those doing it ‘your way’ bemoaning that others are doing the same.

As for those evil Islamics trying to rule the world, how does that differ from the Christians ruling the world? Unless, of course, it’s that they behead their enemies.

Much more ‘civilized,’ of course, to fire bomb their cities, defoliate their forests and, best of all, hire mercenaries to do it for you. The better to sit back and enjoy YouTube.

Your flavor-of-the-month paranoia has caused the deaths of millions. I should think that the lesson would be driven home by now.

All right Coach and Dirty Dennis,you wore me out. I`m talking about a clash of civilizations, about a movement gaining strength with about a third of the world`s population. I mention the beheadings only to illustrate the nature of the enemy we face. And you`re still stuck in first gear talking about
beheadings. And Dirty Dennis comparing Radical Islam and Christianity, is so nonsensical it`s not even worth trying to explain the differences. As for 2000 years of doing it my way, you`re right history shows that when evil arises, it has to be confronted and defeated by force if necessary. It I assumed you could see the big picture. That you comprehended macro concepts and abstract thinking.

All right Coach and Dirty Dennis, you wore me out. I`m talking about a clash of civilizations, about a movement gaining strength with about a third of the world`s population. I mention the beheadings only to illustrate the nature of the enemy we face. And you`re still stuck in first gear talking about
beheadings. And Dirty Dennis comparing Radical Islam and Christianity, is so nonsensical it`s not even worth trying to explain the differences. As for 2000 years of doing it my way, you`re right history shows that when evil arises, it has to be confronted and defeated by force if necessary. It not my way, it`s just the way it is. Trust me I would love for it to be your way.I hate war. But I assumed you guys could see the big picture. That you comprehended macro concepts and abstract thinking. Our enemies are quite open about their goals. They openly talk about it. Don`t listen to me listen to them. So you win I give up. Your right I`m wrong. We can move on now. I will just leave you with this. When the great Nazi hunter Simon Wiessental
was asked what was the main lesson from the Holocaust, he said “When someone says he`s going to kill you, believe him”. At the risk of being melodramatic, I`ll add this, “If someone is willing to kill himself in order to kill you, and you are not willing to kill him in order to protect yourself and your family, then guess who will be victorious. Have a nice weekend.

Sarcasm aside, yes, they want to kill us. But, are you honestly acting as though you don’t want to kill them? What’s the difference? Oh yeah, that fraudulent umbrella legend of freedom perpetrated by the United States of America. Freedom until you cross us……Hussein, Noriega, Iran in general, etc., etc, etc.,

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Aversa– Also remember that the “Is.lamic threat” is not a monolith, but comprised of different parts, which dont agree with one another, and often use anti-US sentiment to feed their own goals, which in turn are all radically different. They’re not all raving, drooling mad.men who need to be k.illed (though some do)

Some do hate and want to destroy the West for no other reason that it exists. It views tolerance homosexuals, womens rights, and decadent culture as the enemy in a clash of civilizations. Wahabis are prime examples.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Others use anti-US settlement more as a nationalistic/anti-colonial role, such as Ham.as and just about any Liby.an organization out there. Regional powers, such as Syr.ia and Ir.an fall into this aspect as well. The use religous imagery as a rallying tool, but not as a particular ideology

there are the moderate Is.lamic parties, such as those operating in Turk.ey, Tun.isia, Egy.pt and elsewhere who want to work within the existing system to bring about change…

(Merkwurdigliebe)

We have to evaluate our own causes to mid east problems. Just simply invading a killing whomever isnt going to work forever, or at least not work with every Islamic group. Political and cultural solutions can be reached (enforce UN 242, build a democratic counter against Iranian Mullah religious imperialism, get Turkey, Tunisia, and Morocco into the EU, and military/counter terror action where needed, etc)…

No Coach,I don`t want to kill anybody. I don`t own a gun. But if I knew somebody was planning to kill me and my family, I would get a gun. And if I couldn`t persuade him to put down his and get out of my living room and the cops hadn`t arrived yet after calling 911,then after I read him his rights, I would regretfully shoot him. Of course I would try to wing him if I could. And I would have the first aid kit ready to treat his wounds. Thank God I don`t a gun right now. I would be tempted to use it on my self!
I mean what is it you don`t understand? Killing to defend is not morally equal to MURDER!
By the way, putting asides your version of the US role in history, what exactly is your plan?

Aversa, my plan?

Ok, here goes:

First and foremost we distance ourselves from oil. That does not include drilling for more, because the amount we have won’t fulfill our current demand. My solution to that is to retrofit all the current power plants with wind and solar to accommodate the demand put on the grid by electric cars. That, in and of itself, would remove most of our interests from the middle east, and therefore remove most of their revenue, which would lessen the amount of terror financing.

Secondly I would rejoin the UN and enforce a global partnership of ‘democracy’.

Thirdly, I would tax religion in this country and eliminate lobbying. Taxing religion would weed out the capitalists and eliminating lobbying would severly lessen the influence of oil lobbyists who have routinely suppressed any advancement of renewable legislation.

And, lastly, I would seriously think about allowing every country we’ve invaded and occupied over the years, an opportunity to setup a military base here and work with us. It would send a good message, as it’s my belief that many of the people that hate us, hate us because our military entrenches itself in foreign land, while now allowing the same thing here.

Let’s make one thing clear: I’m not saying don’t defend yourself. All I’m saying is it’s a pretty hard stance to take against terrorists (as per our political definition), when I would bet you’ve never been confronted by one.

The jist: Sure, there are many Islamic fundamentalists that want to kill Americans. But, maybe, just maybe, it’s only because we won’t leave them alone……? Just a thought..

Wow!! dialog. Nice.

Aersa,

The key word you used is if you KNEW someone was going to kill you. In point of fact we can’t know that. We can only surmise, and when it comes to our personal safety, we’re going to error on the side of prudence.

When it comes to nation/states, however, the going gets a little murkier. At present we have tens of thousands of Iraqis dead and millions displaced because we ‘knew’ they were going to kill us?

I don’t think any will argue that the Iraq escapade was a boondoggle of biblical proportions and it only hammers home the point that if you’re going to be the most powerful nation on the planet, some maturity and prudence is required. You can’t be overreacting to every taunt thrown your way.

To paraphrase Inspector Kemp, if you’re going to storm the castle, you had better be DAMNED sure you’re right.

To put it in your own context, you wouldn’t drive cross country and shoot some guy ’cause you heard he was going to kill you. Would you?

Coach,

Not a bad plan as far as it goes, but I think I’d hold off with the military bases. All people tend to glorify war too much. The result is it’s made to seem honorable as if any one we would take arms up against is bad. We see where THAT has gotten us.

It’s a fine line between being prepared to defend yourself and being eager to fight, I admit. We need to error on the side of restraint.

DoubleD: My point about the military bases is this: We expect people to allow us to have military bases in their countries, but, when was the last time you saw some foreign military base here?

If we expect other nations to be okay with it, shouldn’t we be okay with them installing a base here?

Aaaaah……the real agenda now surfaces: colonialism

Coach,

I understood your point. I have a pretty clear take on your feelings on the matter. I saw it as an ‘in’ to my point.

Ok (Merkwurdigliebe),

Finally someone with a point I can agree with. You said:
“Some do hate and want to destroy the West for no other reason that it exists. It views tolerance homosexuals, womens rights, and decadent culture as the enemy in a clash of civilizations. Wahabis are prime examples”
I completely agree. And it is this element that is gaining an increasing foot hold in these Islamic Countries. But even the moderates are repressive by our standards. The Wahabis types are motivated by a religious ideology that is hell bent on spreading their version of Islam through out the world. They truly believe that Alla has commanded them to either convert or kill those that would stand in the way. They are not motivated by oil, poverty, the Palestinians, colonialism etc…
They give lip service to these things only as a tool to further their ultimate goal, An Islamic World.
It is a mistake to underestimate
their ability to influence large segments of the Islamic masses.

Aversa the warmonger. How are you any different than them? They want to get rid of you. You want to get rid of them. The eternal childish struggle…….