Jed Clampett

The only reason she hasn’t wiped us out already is that she needs us to protect her.

Middle: I agree with your analogy, but the problem with that is this: Mother nature doesn’t give a sh@t about human beings and saving them. In other words, when the earth starts acting up, we better heed it. When terrorists start acting up, there’s many other options including ignoring them, isolating them, stripping them and their country of any future financing, etc…..

Besides, I think we’re starting to discover that the ’splurge’ didn’t really even have that much of an effect. I believe the Al Sadr stand down had more of an effect.

Somewhere In The Middle

Coach, your point about Obama recognizing the success of the surge, but not being ready to give it credit, reminds of another issue. Many recognize that the Earth’s temperature is warming, but aren’t ready to give all the credit for that to human beings.

Somewhere In The Middle

Tim, it looks like you had better follow party line and not say anything that strays from that. The folks here are all about freedom of speech, but that speech had better be in lock step with what they believe, otherwise you become the enemy.

Welcome back Sergeant Puke, er Ralph. His wife’s a nut job? His preacher is a psycho? Ever heard of Hagee? Oh, wait. That’s McCain’s supporter.

Typical nutjob republican. Redirecting all the time with innuendo. Never dealing with the ‘facts on the ground’. Did the ’splurge’ work? Yes. Was it the main reason for ‘today’s’ quell in violence. Not hardly. Get over it. Move on. You and your repukelickans have zero argument anymore. Your ideology is archaeic. It’s flawed. It’s based on falsehoods and innuendo.

I have yet to see any ranking republican answer to the fact that drilling for more oil won’t do anything to the price of gas and whatever it DOES do, it won’t be for 5-7 years. Yet, that’s their answer…..DRILL.

Besides, I believe Obama DID recognize the success of the ’splurge’. He just isn’t ready to give it total credit. What the hell’s wrong with that Ralphy?? Besides, the ’splurge’ is over. Why do you keep looking back? If we can’t look back to the reasons we went into Iraq, then why do you get to look back at the ’splurge’.

Jed Clampett

When YOU YOURSELF put it so eloquently and rationally, following such unshakable logic… How could we possibly vote for McSame over NoBama? Do we want the same leacherous, hypocritical, flip-flopping, uninformed and now even steeped in senility displayed in intransigence and outright hostility a la Don Rumsfeld mixed in with mental failures of fact?

Follow ralphs advice and give your nation on a SILVER PLATTER to Soudis, Chinese, Pakistanis and Indians. They will profit while we suffer and our wages are reduced to levels commensurate to the third world. Seems that now that corporations are getting used to abusing the american public to such an extent they demand it. What can we possibly do about that? Our government won’t even allow market forces to appropiately correct the problems.

Mark Twain said the most corrupt organization in America was not the Mafia but in fact the U.S. Congress. The funny part is NObama still refuses to accept what has been done and praise it… He’s a political animal with his own interests in front of those of our country which may or not be his country… His preacher is a psycho and his wife is a nut job.

If this is any indication of future choices we are in deep $hit.

Hey! How come none of you regulars comment on Taibbi’s stories? Or, do you all use different names? I think we should start a petition for Matt to take over the National Affairs blog…

Jed Clampett

thanks bender, that’s the one. may want to look into bob ney as well R-Ohio. just a couple of exanples of the parasites that have infested our congress.

I believe he’s talking about Duke Cunningham, Newport. Nevertheless, your opinion of Cali’s senators may view them as crappy, but at least they’re not in the State Pen yet.

Jed,

..”That senator from california that got busted a couple of years ago for his extremely blatant corruption proved it for me”…

Care to explain this? California has had the same crappy Senators, both of which are female, for the last 15 years. Sounds like more of your “wisdom”. All wrong all of the time!

Yes, Merk. I Do believe that they knew exactly what they were doing. They know that if it goes sour, we can’t leave. They know that if it goes quickly, there’s less money to divy up. I, for one, am not going to act as though they didn’t know what they were doing. And, as far as the oil wells being lit up, why do you think we only guarded the wells for the first year after Saddam was toppled?

And, who better to put in charge of something that you want to drag out, than George W. Bush. Failure at every single level of his life.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Coach– PNAC most certainly called that…but would f*cking around for several years with low troop levels, while the public tide turns and the oil spigots are lit aflame due to lack of protection is counter to what they would have wanted…PNAC, and Bush as well, thought it would be an easier process than it in reality would be, as Shinseki stated, and that public support wouldnt be a problem…the last thing they wanted was Iraq to go sour because A) it would turn public opinion on the whole project (which happened), and it would threaten the oil supply (which indeed only reached pre-war levels last year)…you can’t s.ell oil when the wells are constantly being bombed/lit on fire…driving up price is one thing, but do you honestly think that PNAC would want to endager the reason why they went to Iraq in the first place?

so history seems to suggest that yes, a long term presence was the ultimate goal…but Bush espescially seemed to have no coherent plan to get there, or carry out what he set out to do…whether it be for PNAC, hegemonic, or Orientalist reasons…every action made up to the surge seemed to run counter to achieving any sort of long term presence

There you go again Merk: “you’d want a many troops as possible to stabilize the situation and establish control of supply…and Bush didnt do that, and bumbled around for 4 years…”

Ignoring the PNAC statement of principles drawn up by the exact people who drew up the ‘Operation Iraqi Liberation’, er, ‘Operation Iraqi Freedom’. That states that we need a long, drawn-out presence. A long, drawn-out presence also ensures United States Treasury being diverted into the hands of the industries involved in this scam.

If they wrote it up themselves, how can you continually deny it?

Lemonade… that cool refreshing drink? keep drinking buddy. you are doing yourself and your countrimen a great service. you should probably get a medal.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Jed– I’m not sure as to what incident you’re referencing (and where have I called CBS a liberal mouthpiece…there you go again)…I’d have to see what you’re talking about to make an informed judgement…but I’m surprised they actually took the time to edit/talk to McCain, given the unabashed Obama-boner the media has developed…I wouldnt call it biased per se, as the media followers viewers/money, not ideology in most cases

As for Bush setting out to destroy Iraq in some sort of master plan…I dont b.uy it. The Bushie’s m.o. has been one bumbling failure after another, with little evidence of planning. Bush envisioned himself as some sort of savior to all the little brown people in the ME, and tried to enact his vision on the cheap…and it didnt work, surprise surprise…and if you believe Bush did it only for the oil/money, then going in with fewer troops doesnt make much sense…you’d want a many troops as possible to stabilize the situation and establish control of supply…and Bush didnt do that, and bumbled around for 4 years…

in any case, those 30 thousand COMBAT TROOPS definitely turned the tide, that and the fact that we decided to stop playing nice (testament to the skills of our armed forces)…those who think otherwise are full of chit themselves…

Jed, yes. Conservatives think media is liberal. Liberals think media is conservative. And, there’s plenty of examples on both sides. What pisses me off the most, is that liberal outposts like this one, have bought into the whole ’surge’ mentality. It’s a complete travesty.

Simply put, the ’surge’ was just a gradual influx of personnel, 30 thousand or so, added to the already 300 thousand or so (including Blackwater). So, for people to believe that an extra 30 thousand or so, gradually put in and gradually taken out (allegedly) would make that much of a difference in and of itself is a crock of Chit!

Obama is exactly correct when he says that there are plenty of fundamental reasons for the lessened violence. McCain gives any and all credit to his highness Petraeus and the ’surge’.

One thing that any and all republicans are NOT answering is this: If it’s so safe now, safe enough to ‘walk around without any security’ as McCain puts it, THEN WHY CAN’T WE LEAVE?????

Republicans/Cons ervatives have lost control of this Iraq argument and they’re being exposed as the unintelligent, industry appeasing saps that they really are. Plain, Simple, Nuff said. Follow the money. Who enriched themselves during this fiasco?

Jed Clampett

Hey Gliebe, do you still consider CBS a liberal mouthpice today after it was revealed that they edited an interview with McCain to hide the fact that the man made the most substancial foreign policy gaffe he could have made, thereby destroying his argument that he is best for security due to his involvement in war?

Jed Clampett

When you consider that his subbordinate was actually fired for having the same professional opinion to the members of congress. You have to realize these guys were not interested in professionals and how to best protect our troops in war. A bunch of draft dodgers that had never seen armed conflict or experienced the hardships and brutality of war ignored all the experts and went in haphazardly, micromanaging the campaign to such an extent that they made the rookie mistake of outrunning their supply lines and leaving them unprotected.
THIS IS A CRIME, not a simple disagreement between professionals. It directly contributed to the unnecessary deaths of thousands of americans, the physical destruction of thousands more of their bodies and untold others suffering from psychological problems. That’s not even counting the countless lives lost in Iraq, which these criminals don’t seem to care enough about to give a realistic accounting of. A CRIME OF THE HIGHEST ORDER FIT FOR THE ICC.

When you have a disagreement with a high ranking, highly decorated, expert in his field military officer is to instate his replacement while he still has 15 months of service in the highest position in the military? No sir, this was a definate message to others in the military that may have differing professional opinions than what Rumsfeld and Cheney had. It is also the reason they had to shop around to find high ranking officers that would take the bait they were offering.

Nothing has worked. They merely tell you that so you’ll thing THEY actually had something to do with the change rather than the locals. When you have to change the definition of victory and what results where expected compared to what was achieved, the surge did not work. Why? because it’s out of our hands, it is an Iraqi matter and our presence and armed involvement actually hinders progress.

Shinseki said nothing of the sort. He understood that defeating the Iraqi military would be a simple affair. The need for the extra troops was to keep an effective ratio of troops to populace to keep the peace and deliver the services that a controling power must deliver to an occupied population as stipulated by laws. The Bush administration rejected this because they wanted the instability and chaos. It’s alot easier to steal when people are busy trying to save their lives or kill each other. In fact, all of Shinseki’s fears were realized in the ineptitude, nay, criminal intent, of the George W. Bush administration. If man’s justice cannot reach these criminals, then perhaps nature should start showing her hand by taking out the penguin’s fake ticker.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Its not exactly a crime to remove a general who disagrees with a pres, as they serve at his discretion, it just looks really, really bad when the said General said what needed to be done, and once his original plans were implemented, they worked…Shinseki argued for going in, and kicking @ss, and instead the Bushies p.ussyfooted around until sh*t got serious

that said, I dont know if it was that the Bush plan was designed to fail, or simply fell apart in the realities on the ground…there was definetly some Realist US Hegemony Restatement as well as old fashinioned Saidian Orientalism involved to be sure

This is probably one of the best exposé’s I’ve found on McCain’s claims of surge success.

www.crooksandliars .com

Jed Clampett

Which is exactly why George Senior ammassed exactly half a million troops on Iraq’s borders in ‘91 and even so considered the campaign too risky to follow all the way to Baghdad (nice try dissembler). Besides, George senior was a shrewd man, he wasn’t put in charge of intelligence for nothing. He had helped Saddam aquire the technology for Anthrax and other quemical weapons to be used against Iran in their war. But then played both sides like they normally do and Saddam put an Exocet missile into an american friggate in the gulf in response. Even so, PoppaBush knew the guy could be a valuable asset in the war against the greater target, persia and it’s oil reserves… wealth.

You know?… like the wealth being stolen from the american people with the help of congress. Why isn’t our government extracting the oil and s_elling it on the market for US at $140/bbl and bringing down our deficits instead of Giving it away to entrenched monopolies for about 1% of actual value?
That senator from california that got busted a couple of years ago for his extremely blatant corruption proved it for me… american politicians are cheap, they s_ell-out their country and populace cheap. He reportedly got like $10 million, but the company that he steered no bid contracts to go BILLIONS in contracts leading to HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS in profits. When you look at that companies political contributions, you will notice a definate skewing towards the Red sphere of politics. Sure, they donate some to the blue side to keep up appearances and a plausible deniability, but it’s pretty evident how corruption in the system is being used to fill the coffers of a chosen few and the political party whose hypocritical leadership has lost sight of what politics is suppossed to be about. They have turned into criminals after one thing and one thing only, MONEY and the POWER that it’s possesion and disbursements entail.

When you can b_uy a politician and the nations wealth for pennies on the dollar, you know the political system has gone the way of the Roman empire and must be corrected before it’s impending collapse due to lack of trust from the populace. No PR loaded ‘reform’ that leads to no real change and bloated government expenditures and waste will. A true and earnest intent at improvement backed up with concrete actions devoid of ulterior interests will be successful. Otherwise… well, more intelligent and advanced civilizations have imploded before due to this mechanism, no reason to think this one wouldn’t follow the established natural way.

This magazine is officially run by idiots. Bring back O’Rourke with his intellegence and humer….

shinseki wasnt born yesterday. he asked for half a million bc he knew he wouldnt get it. get it? it was an indirect way of opposing this crap before it ever started. he thought it was a terrible idea as a matter of principle and numbers were just his philosophically sound way of making a stand. i.e. The Art of War. dont believe me? read his retirement speech.

Jed Clampett

Shinseki suggested goin in with half a million troops from the beginning you imbecile. To throw in 30k troops when it’s politicaly expedient when you’ve already screwed the pooch that badly cannot be equated as following an expert’s professional recommendations.
Na, man, this is a crime of the highest order and the fact that the members of the administration won’t even speak candidly to congress about what was done proves it for me that they all understand they were committing crimes.
The fact that they circumvented the law and used the RNC’s mail system so there wouldn’t be a physical record proves they knew they were commiting crimes.(I wonder if they can be found in the NSA’s data taps)
Removing an expert on counterterrorism and counterinsurgency from the mission he had trained for his entire life merely because he gave an honest and candid (somewhat) professional assesment of he situation proves they wanted to do this their way, a MOTHER FU*KING CRIME.
Get it through your thick head you retarded moron(s).

And Senator Obama was against it!!

Well, I can understand why he didn’t supported the surge, look at what his mother, you remember the one who he strives to be like?? she wouldn’t have supported the surge, as a matter of fact, she wouldn’t have supported anything that freedom loving Americans would have supported, she was a communist.
Look it up before you cuss me and insult my heritage..
Now that there is nothing left to debate, because Mama’s actions and words say it all.
I shall go back to posting in politico.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

The surge worked because it was what General Shinseki recommended…the man told the truth, and got canned (gee, when the Generals tell you what you need to get the job done, listen)…we went in, kicked the ever living sh*t out of al-Qaeda with the right number of troops needed, and payed off/scared everyone else into submission…whatever works. Iraq is safer than it was 2 years ago, and we’re slowly reaching the point to where we can pull out and the whole shebang doesnt collapse like a deck of cards…Maliki and some semblence of democracy seem entrenched, lets see what happens…I wouldn’t call for a troop withdrawal just yet, but we’re definitely almost at the stage to where they can leave (as to how many, with all them new bases we’ve built, we’re still probably going to have a presence there)…regardless of how we got in, we’re now in a pretty good stance to get out with our gulf interests intact

Iran is no problem either…the Bush administration doesnt have the troops or the money to fight Iran, and to do so would be counterproductive…signs inside Iran are pointing towards a reformist president being elected, and the Iranian public is the only pro-US people in the region…and invasion would be both a waste of time and resources…and Iran doesnt want to be invaded either; they’ll rattle the saber, and we’ll rattle in turn, for show on the worlds stage while things stay status quo

as for McCain, he’s just about done. Obama’s damn near usurped him on the issue (if Obama had more political sense he would have buried McCain months ago)…put a fork in McCain, its over

Dickinson,

The most maddening part of your post is not that you incorrectly describe the surge as a success-if I did nothing but watch cartoons, ingest space brownies and engage in sophistry all day I’d probably describe the surge as a success too.

Nope. The worst part of your post is that YOU GIVE EQUAL WEIGHT TO THE JUDGEMENT TO BACK THE SURGE AND TO THE JUDGEMENT TO GO TO WAR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That is BEYOND ridiculous. The decision to go to war resulted in the deaths of over 4000 Americans and countless Iraqis. The cost is projected to be over $3 trillion dollars. The decision to go to war has resulted in an expansion of Iranian power and an almost inevitable military confrontation with them down the road (and all the economic chaos that would ensue). It has resulted in a new terrorist base, higher global oil prices, humanitarian chaos in the form of displaced Iraqis, massive debt at home, and about a thousand other horrible things I can’t even think of right now. It has been an enormous drain on government resources that could have been better spent elsewhere. It is widely regarded by experts as THE WORST FOREIGN POLICY MISTAKE IN OUR NATION’S HISTORY.

And Tim Dickinson regards this as EQUAL to the surge WHICH HASN’T EVEN WORKED?? Uh no.

You want to give McCain a point for the surge, fine. Misguided and unintelligent but fine.

But if you do, you need to be giving Obama about 5 million points for opposing this war from the beginning. Not doing so just makes you sound like an insane neoconservative.

I really hope you’re not. You’re not for nuking Iran are you Timmy Dick?

ISRAEL’S SUSTAINABLE PARASITISM ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE

Israel and the American Neo-Con/Neo-Lib Diaspora notoriously donate thousands of dollars to elect corruptible American presidential and congressional officials, who then repay Israel a thousand fold from precious tax revenues; with millions of dollars worth of technologically advanced military equipment and services, and with the priceless lives of thousands of young patriots. In the case of the un-Constitutional Iraq War, Podhoretz Neo-Con Bush sacrificed over a trillion dollars and the lives of 4,000 young patriots, to sole benefit of Israel.

Jed Clampett

Hey anon, give it about a decade and you’ll have your wish of occupying an american city and doing to it what you did to baghdad.

Of course the surge worked. the surge of money to the sunny tribal leaders. Let’s not even mention that Maliki worked out a truce with Sadder before the ’surge’ started. Besides, the goal of the surge was to give the politicians breathing room to work out their differences. This has not been accomplished, therefore, the surge has not worked to meet it’s objectives(unless you follow the republican credo of change the goalpost when it is politicaly convenient). Ultimately it is in the Iraqi’s hands and that is the way it should be. Bring our troops back.

Aren’t the people who are telling us the surge worked the same people who told us about WMD and al qaeda in Iraq, mission accomplished, we don’t torture, we’ll leave if the Iraqi’s ask us, etc. etc.?

Im so pissed at you dickinson! More WAR did not bring PEACE, you facsist pig! You dont know WTF you are talking about. Does taibbi know you wrote this? Stop writing bc you suck and you are making people stupid.

WTF RS? i cant belive you let this propaganda hit your site. that little death surge was a nightmare and if we had any civility if would have never happened. Dickinson, i wish my unit could have occupied your neighborhood instead of baghdad.

Voting against invasion > Voting for invasion & a surge

First McCain says we can’t leave until we win.

Now he says we’ve won but need to stay.

I don’t know which one of us is more confused.

“even McCain didn’t really think the surge would get us to this point this quickly.”

There’s an argument to be made that the surge DIDN’T get us to this point. To be sure it’s not an argument fit for a presidential campaign, for which it has to be dumbed down for TV to “VIOLENCE DOWN SURGE GOOD.” But several other events which coincided or predated the troop escalation are equally or arguably more responsible for the drop in violence than any increase in troop levels. The most obvious being the Sadr bloc ceasefire, which predated the Surge. The strategy of financing militia to fight AQ-I. And not least important, the completion of the sectarian cleansing and segregation of Baghdad in 2006.