They should actually call it a troop “transfer.” They may leave Iraq but they aren’t going far.

well, the junior senator from illinois recently said he’d be fine tuning his assesment of the war…and it seems he’s headed on a tour as we write. funny thing ’bout those tours. nixon took one. johnson took one. even evita peron took one. they never seem to really rock, no?

The timeline for a ‘redeployment’ has always been there, and it’s always been the same. The oil deals. As soon as they’re sewn into legislation, we’re off to Iran.

It’s time to stop giving any kind of leeway to this administration. It’s time to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt. It’s time to start realizing that everything they tell us is a boldface lie.

Since Bush took office:
9/11 attacks, and subsequent exploitation.

Oil prices have risen 600%.

Civil Liberties have been eroded (terrorists won).

Judicial system (including the Supreme Court) politicized.

Privatization of your national security.

The list goes on and on and on. But, those are major.

Godspeed everyone. And, now we’re going to drill out way out of this?

Thanks a bunch to this oil-filled administration. Rot in hell you criminals.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Also happening in the last 8 years and other general thoughts:

–Increased demand for oil from China, India, and the rest of the industrializing third world, lack of refining

– Civil liberties havent eroded as far as some may think (though several dangerous precedents have been set, we’ll see how things go in the Obama administration), unless you count foreign nationals…who are guaranteed no rights as non citizens anyway

–Supreme Court cant be too politicized, as Roe v Wade is still here, and we arent a theocracy, and the incoming Democratic Prez will surely install some, shall we say, more left leaning judicial candidates (but I guess you mean the judicial system is politicized when it rules against something you like)

as for 9/11, sure govt (I dont think Bush or his cadre personally) probably knew, ala Pearl Harbor, but the point of all this is moot…as what do we have on the other side? For the oil crisis, we have drive 55…which didnt work and made driving from LA to San Diego in the 70s suck…

No real difference in Iraq policy…”withdrawal will be determined by things on the ground”, but hey, we’ll have socialized cradle to the grave medicine that’ll cost you in taxes

in any case, come Nov Obama will be prez, so who cares?

A “general time horizon?”

So exactly what happened to “appeasement” or “cut and run”? What happened to those advocating a troop withdrawal timeline being “unpatriotic”?

Apparently you are only unpatriotic if you are a Democrat (or someone half against the neocons). Someone needs to cure the neoconservative media from its ultra right wing bent. Obviously libertarians lack the balls to push for this. What a surprise.

Regardless of your measure of oil prices, civil liberties or supreme court politicization the sad fact that no one denies is this: The Bush administration has done NOTHING to lower oil prices, NOTHING to protect civil liberties and NOTHING to prevent politicization of the justice dept. AND the supreme court.

The sad fact for Merkwurdigliebe is this: republicans are responsible for ALL the major failures of the past 8 years. He wants to weasel out of some of them to protect his ego but his problem is he is worthless. His greater problem is that ALL REPUBLICAN IDEAS ARE WORTHLESS. They have been proven so by our chimp president (who is the apex of intelligence for such people).

Sad idiots like Merkwurdigliebe breathlessly claim that India and China are the only ones responsible for insane rises in gas prices even as the Likudist Bush administration’s military provocation of Iran raises oil prices DAILY.

It’s hard to understand why trash like Merkwurdigliebe aren’t simply incarcerated for destructive stupidity and denied the vote on the principle that mentally challenged people shouldn’t be allowed to determine the destiny of normal people.

If someone were to run on a “law and order” ticket aimed at preventing criminally stupid republicans to participate than I’d TOTALLY VOTE FOR IT.

We probably could use more refineries. but why would the oil companies build them when all that would do is lower prices?

fewer refineries=more demand

more demand=higher prices

higher prices=bigger profits (read; bigger golden parachute, bigger pool, house, car, boat, ego, etc.)

“The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind..”

Burn Daddy– You’re exactly right, and a lot of it is also “not in my backyard” syndrome…theres a multitude of ways to solve the said oil problems, more refineries is one, opening up the market to hybrid and green cars, so that at the very least, the consumer gets to decide whether they want said cars or not: let them pass or fail on their own merit

also, T Boone Pickens plan seems to make a lot of sense, no?

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Helloo– sure thing buddy, keep trying to pin your own insecurities on me…call me stupid, but I really have no patience for those who think the Bush administration is the end all be all of bad things to happen to this country, when we still live better than Eighty percent of the world, and have more freedoms than anywhere else(try the Hoover, Buchanan, or Pierce, or the Harding administrations, or Carter), …for those worried about our “world status” the “world” hasnt liked us since the 50s…at best during the Cold War all we could claim was that we werent the Soviet Union… and I’ve totally grown apathetic to it…I have NEVER defended the Bush administration on anything, yet I’m also smart enough to know that Bush has approximately 4 months left in office…the man’s done, and I just dont care anymore

Does everyone realize that 163 republican congressmen recently voted ‘no’ on a bill that would require domestic drilling on currently leased land? It goes back to what BurnDaddy is saying…..that the whole ‘domestic drilling’ is all one giant scam. If we add more oil to the market, the prices would fall. Do we honestly think the oil companies are going to push for something that would lower their profit???

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Also, I never said that that China and India were our only problems, just part…but only an idiot ideologue with no knowledge of the oil market would say that, and you’re not one of those, now are you?

and the media is only “conservative” because your dumb @ss thinks it is…

Coach– which ought to tell you, that Govt is part of the problem, and not the solution

Merk, the solution is, actually, quite simple and fundamental. Get rid of the oil magnates currently residing in the White House. Demand for alternatives is there and has been there. Examples: Honda Prius and waiting lists for electric cars. You always say demand will bring the change necessary. Well, the demand for Priuses has been there for 5 years, and they’re STILl not making enough of them. Demand for electric cars has been there for over 10 years, and there isn’t ANY available.

It’s going to take a mandate, many mandates on the auto industry. Unfortunately for us, since the Bush Administration took over, they’ve loosened the reigns on american automakers and epa standards. That may NOT be the reason we’re where we’re at, but it sure is coincidental.

Had we continued on the course set by Jimmy Carter, as Jed spoke of, we’d be much better off as well. Japan took it seriously in the 70’s. Despite doubling its GDP in the 70’s and 80’s, its annual overall levels of energy consumption have remained unchanged. And they only use half as much energy for every dollar’s worth of economic activity as the US. They also produce almost half of all global solar power.
I don’t know much about the T-Boone Pickens idea. But It sounds to me like we’d just be b_uying a different product, but from the same salesman, with the same motives.

Anybody who villainizes Al Gore by saying he’s exploiting climate change to make a buck, better do the same damn thing to Boone Pickens. The idea proposed by Pickens is a good one, it’s just that it’s been proposed umpteen thousand times by democrats over the last 30 years, and subsequently vetoed time and again by Pickens’ buddies in the Senate. He’s OBVIOUSLY only in it for the money, otherwise he’d have been pushing for it a long time ago…….

Just research Germany and Japan to find the power of solar. Renewables is the way to go, period. Anything less would be uncivilized……

Merkwurdigliebe,

Believe me, it doesn’t surprise me that you don’t care. Your obvious lack of thought with regards to anything you write has clearly demonstrated the level of care you put in to grownup discussions.

“I really have no patience for those who think the Bush administration is the end all be all of bad things to happen to this country, when we still live better than Eighty percent of the world, and have more freedoms than anywhere else”

Moron, ECONOMICALLY WE ARE LIVING WORSE COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE WORLD SINCE BUSH TOOK OFFICE BECAUSE OF THE FALLING DOLLAR WHICH IS HIS FAULT BECAUSE OF HIS EMPHASIS ON SUPPLY SIDE ECONOMICS, FREE TRADE AND DEREGULATION. WE HAVE LESS FREEDOM THAN WE DID BEFORE BUSH TOOK OFFICE BECAUSE OF BUSH’S EVISCERATION OF THE 4TH AMENDMENT AND HIS TENDENCY OF STRIPPING U.S. CITIZENS OF HABEUS CORPUS AND TORTURING THEM.

I have no patience for someone with your IQ level. You are so pathetically stupid it amazes me you even understand how to read. I also have no patience for people who hide behind “libertarian” labels when everything they do is sideways apologist crap for the Republicans.

“yet I’m also smart enough to know that Bush has approximately 4 months left in office…the man’s done, and I just dont care anymore”

Moron, this is about you protecting the republican brand, not Bush. McCain’s policies MAKE HIM Bush: he is running for Bush’s 3rd term. McCain would continue everything that was wrong with the Bush administration: tax cuts for the rich, further deregulation, war without end, starving the government and appointing idiots to important posts, etc…THE SAME THINGS THAT SCREWED THIS COUNTRY UP IN THE FIRST PLACE.

And Bush is not done yet. He can still either bomb or enable the Israelis to bomb Iran in his last 4 months, thereby driving the price of oil in this country up to as much as $14/gallon. Let’s see you emphasize China and India in your moronic arguments about oil prices when that happens, Moron.

“and the media is only “conservative” because your dumb @ss thinks it is…”

Wrong. The media is conservative because it continuously broadcasts conservative opinion and blacklists anything but. Wesley Clark says that being shot down in Vietnam isn’t a qualification for being president and he is blacklisted by the media, yet when the New Yorker runs an image of Obama dressed as Osama bin Laden in the oval office with the American flag burning in the fireplace it’s regarded as “all in good satire?” Bullsht. McCain makes RIDICULOUS foreign policy gaffes (Iran is training Al Qaeda, Czechoslovakia is still a country) and does not get called out for it, yet Obama is ridiculed for suggesting we hold talks with Iran (which the Bush administration just did) and drop bombs on Pakistan if we have actionable intel on terrorist wherebouts (which the Bush administration also did after Obama recommended it). Obama was prescient about these foreign policy matters and gets skewered by the media because he’s a democrat. BULLSHT.

The entire media conversation I’d written about was about the media not discussing the pentagon’s extra-legal propaganda campaign and burying the McCain connection to Myanmar’s Junta which uses forced labor in camps while at the same time hyping up Obama’s Jeremiah Wright scandal. Well these days the media is STILL talking about Jeremiah Wright while McCain’s lobbying for repressive dictatorships is-you guessed it-blacklisted. Oh yeah, and WHAT pentagon propaganda campaign?

These days Obama’s recommendations for withdrawing from Iraq are being seconded by the president of Iraq. WHERE IS THE MEDIA COVERAGE? WHERE IS THE NEGATIVE MEDIA COVERAGE OF MCCAIN WHOSE POLICY PROPOSAL IS SO OBVIOUSLY WRONG??!

Where is that coverage? Nowhere because the right wing media won’t play it. You see, it makes their candidate look bad.

On energy,

Brazil is energy independent because they burn sugarcane-which is much more efficient than burning corn and therefore causes less CO2 emissions per household.

Brazil is one of the fastest expanding economies in the world yet they don’t need to import foreign oil.

Worried about food prices? Don’t. Algae is the most efficient plant to use for ethanol. No one eats Algae so no food price problem.

The energy crisis is very easy to solve. It begins with one thing: removing oil interests from the equation.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Helloo– you are so full of crap, that its hard to know where to begin

We are not living worse off than the rest of the world…you have electricity, clean running water, heat, a car, a home, and presumably a job. You have food, on a plentiful and regular basis. You dont have to worry about religious persecution. You have rights under the law. You dont have to worry about rebel guerillas or cartels coming to gun you down in the middle of the night. You have indoor plumbing. You have the liberty to say, watch, and do just about anything you want. All Americans have these things…you are absolutely, completely full of sh*t to suggest otherwise, or you’re out of touch with reality. Either way, you’re just pathetic

get back to me on AMERICAN CITIZENS rights that have been abused…foreign nationals are not subject, or should not be subject, to protections under our constitution…and what torture. I totally remember the time he shoved bamboo under that US citizens fingernails, or that time he strapped electrodes to that other US citizens genitals, and electrocuted them till they exploded, or the time he sawed that guys head with a rusty knife…oh wait, none of that sh*t ever happened

hate on supply side economics all you want…it got the country to where it is today, and it’s probably why you have a well paying job, @ssf*ck. And government isnt starved. Find all the money that is wasted, misused, or just plain dissapears. Then talk to me about starved govt, you arrogant, ignorant piece of sh*t

Ok f*ckwad, try and follow this: YOU ONLY THINK THAT THE MEDIA IS BIASED BECAUSE WHENEVER IT DOESNT COVER WHAT YOU THINK IT SHOULD COVER, IT IS OBVIOUSLY BIASED AND CONSERVATIVE…huh? The reason no one covers the Myanmar connection is because theres not enough blood in the story for the media to bite. Also, all major tv networks followed Obama to Iraq, but payed no attention to McCains trip…where’s the bias? The media follows stories that will make it money and bring it viewers, leading to a self serving ethos, not one that is particularly conservative or liberal

but then, you’ve been unable to comprehend that from the start…Bush is done, let it go

Jed Clampett

The Gliebe is infallible… in his own mind.
One wonders if he ever tires of being wrong, then again, he’s probably oblivious to his mistakes or even his misinterpretations because of a lack of understanding.
He’s not even aware of the source of the tactics he uses in discourse. He’s even oblivious to the dichotomy and hypocresy in his own arguments. This one seems to be totally consumed.

What separates the Gliebe and those like him from the rest of society, is that they only care about themselves and those they consider counterparts. They expect everyone else to be as they, uncaring. So they try to make you see that as long as you have your NEEDS met, the other’s plight doesn’t concern you.
Since he is in the corporate world where people are merely numbers and a tool to achieve more power, this lack of empathy is prevalent, so to him it seems natural to not give a damn about those less fortunate than him.
Sadly, this is merely a prejection of his own self hatred, consequently he pins his own shortcomings on others and then proceeds to soundly berate them. It’s just to painful to take an objective view of his own self and place the derisions where they should be… himself.

Jed Clampett

with 24 hour news cycles, why do we simply get an hours worth of information rehashed and sanitized for consumption, rather than the hard hitting in-depth reporting so prevalent in other “free” societies. The media is owned by moguls that own almost everything else. When you go to the Forbes person sheet and start seeing how the directorship of these corporations seems to be the same bunch of guys, you start to understand why the greedy intent is so prevalent in our economic endeavours.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Jed– yep, you seem to have me all figured out…my empathy only extends towards those who make the effort to help themselves…nice obfuscation there bud, anyone who disagrees is “part of the machine” and I’m lost, a demon…Kool-Aid tasting good lately, Jed? You always seem to have some smug answer lined up about someone else, but you never seem to turn inward on your own pap, are the spirits talkative lately?. Is it that you think yourself infallible? I never claimed to be right, but you of all people should know the rule of those living in glass houses…btw, besides mumbo jumbo, what have you ever had to ad, Jed?

while we’re on it, yes 24 hour news cycles are part of it…the constant need for info has allowed news to degrade into tabloid quality coverage. That along with the general fracturing of traditional media into electronic and digital forms, the media are only giving the people what they want: coverage of Angelina Jolie’s twins, not hard news. All of us would like more hard hitting news, but there’s more money to be made in following tripe (as an insider, trust me)…it brings in more viewers with shorter attention spans, and much to the delight of the advertisers, it brings in new fodder for product…its a win-win for the media

Merkwurdigliebe,

Oh come on. At least TRY to act halfway intelligent. You tell me you never support Bush and then you congratulate him for following his generals on his failed surge strategy. Now you simply sound like you don’t want to argue because you know how destructive republican ideas have been for this country. Grow a pair.

“We are not living worse off than the rest of the world”

Way to misunderstand. WE ARE LIVING WORSE THAN WHEN BUSH TOOK OFFICE. When you compare the U.S. to the world in 2000 and in 2008, the U.S. in 2008 is worse (falling dollar, lost manufacturing, housing, gas, etc…) This was pretty obvious the way I wrote it. Small wonder you misunderstood. (How could you reasonably think I meant the U.S. is worse off than EVERY other country in the rest of the world? That’s just crazy. This sounds like something you wrote because you’d rather change the subject than answer to Bush’s total failure of a presidency).

“get back to me on AMERICAN CITIZENS rights that have been abused”

Yasser Hamdi and Jose Padilla were American citizens that we know about who were abducted and tortured under U.S. policy and denied the right to trial. EVERY AMERICAN using major telecom companies that are not Qwest has had their 4th amendment rights violated through illegal wiretapping programs (some of which we still don’t know about). The Bush administration AND congress agree citizen’s rights were violated, otherwise they would not have passed a retroactive immunity law shielding those companies from prosecution.

“hate on supply side economics all you want…it got the country to where it is today,”

Exactly. The country is headed for a recession according to most economists (if it‘s not already in one which depends on the calculus you use), Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are the latest giants in need of a government bailout because of idiotic republican deregulation ideology. The housing market is absolutely terrible because of the same; it is getting harder and harder for the average American to get a loan. The value of the dollar is pathetic and Bush doesn‘t have the stomach to stand up to the Chinese on trade imbalances. American jobs are shifting to China and India and undocumented workers are driving wages down for American workers because of right wing “free trade” agreements. Oil prices are at $140/barrell mainly because for 8 years republican ideologues (Bush) controlling government haven’t aggressively switched to clean energies and diverse ethanol fuels and stood up to Big Oil. So when you say republican economic policies got the country to where it is today you’re exactly right. That’s why we need to change those policies.

“the media follows stories that will make it money and bring it viewers, leading to a self serving ethos, not one that is particularly conservative or liberal”

Now you’re starting to get it. The media has a CORPORATE philosophy, not necessarily a liberal or conservative one. Your problem is this: corporate philosophy is essentially conservative. The media has an incentive to portray the Republican candidate in a better light because he is more likely to deregulate their industry, be more favorable to business at the expense of labor, etc…all of which makes them more money. It’s great that you agree the media is so conservative. Unfortunately you’re so stupid you don’t seem to realize you agree.

“but then, you’ve been unable to comprehend that from the start…Bush is done, let it go”

Again, try to work through your ADD. MCCAIN IS RUNNING FOR BUSH’S THIRD TERM. He would continue all of Bush’s failed policies. Maybe you believe McCain is done too and will express that sentiment by voting for Obama? I won’t hold my breath, Republican.

trust you? damn, you sure are stupid.

Jed Clampett

“…my empathy only extends towards those who make the effort to help themselves…”

You finally hit it. You pour your derision on all others. The perception that they are UNWILLING to help themselves makes them less capable or deserving of compasion or empathy, therefore, it is easy to take advantage of these people. What you hate to realize, and subsequently ignore completely though it is obvious, is that some people are born in such horrible conditions that they know no better, they are hopeless from the very start. And even though you have these freedoms, comforts and surplus of necessities, you are incapable of showing any gratitude (ie. compassion)… mainly because you choose to ridicule or deride the things you lack the mental or spiritual capacity to understand. Your spiritual vacuuity is evidenced in your ability to explode in tirades of insults and innanities that frankly exposes our enemie’s true nature.
Thanks, you are helping me prove my point.

general time horizon sounds like a bad sci-fi movie not a real plan depite his failuers Bush did what he wated to do most make his oil freinds richer.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Helloo– Here we go again…if history is any guide, then the only thing you can claim the Bushies had anything to do with is the falling dollar, mainly due to Dutch Disease caused by the influx of massive amounts of US capital in the ME…anyway

–Lost manufacturing: where have you been? We’ve been hemorrahging manufacturing jobs since the Ford years…so Bush is guilty of doing nothing, not creating the problem…unless you live in the South, where manufacturing jobs are springing up left and right due to right to work laws
–housing: a completely government made problem, and not even a Republican one at that…I distinctly remember Senators Dodd and Clinton wagging their fingers at banks, saying that “everyone should be entitled to the american dream” and that they had to make housing more affordable…unfortunately the vast majority who became eligible had never owned a house before, didnt have the means to pay for it, and the market collapsed
–Right wing free trade agreements? Most of our current free trade agreements were signed during the Clinton Administration, so again you’re wrong
– Oil is $140 a barrel for many more reasons than “Evil Oil Companies”, or just Bush…and its simplistic and naive to believe so…our oil problem has been building over the past 20-25 years, and many factors key in: Rising demand in the 3rd World, Stabilizing supply, lack of refining capacity, lack of a standard blend, gas taxes, lack of domestic drilling, lack of domestic nuclear power, lack of domestic energy alternatives, green included…Bush is not responsible alone, Govt in general is
Rights Abusal– so, all you have is two confirmed cases, and the problem with wiretapping which has exist since the Carter administration (and was used by every administration since) that has been rectified…by your hyperbolic rhetoric you’d think we’ve devolved into Soylent Green…also, the idea that the Govt has the time, inclination, and wherewithall to wiretap all of those people is ludicrous…if you’re not a foreign national, or a terrorist, you have, at least certainly now, nothing to worry about…Our freedoms have survived much worse, and again, Bush is almost done and the country is still here, and we’re still on top…I wouldnt worry about China either; we exist in a symbiotic relationship, and economic freedom is slowly breaking apart Communism in the People’s Republic

Corporate philosophy: Conservative? I’m not sure if maximizing of profits is conservative or liberal, as the media will use any means to reach that end…if the Media was conservative, there would have been no Abu Ghraib story, and Obama would not be getting such cakewalk coverage

Lastly, dont peg me as some sort of Republican sympathizer…the problems I, and you, to some extent, have outlined have to do with problems in government that have existed since, and grown worse since the LBJ days…ALL GOVT, Rep, Dem, whatever is to blame…which is why I cant vote for Obama or McCain…its one Politburo member for another…neither one offering much change

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Jed– If your argument were correct, then there would be no capacity for change, all of us would still be hoveling around in the mud, because we didnt know any better (I guess in your world personal initiative doesnt exist?)…unless one has a legitimate defect or disability, there is very little that stands in one’s way if one has drive and determination to do it

This country was blessed with equality of opportunity, but equality of results…not everyone is going to make it good, but all have the chance, espescially in this day and age…yes Jed, I have all of these freedoms because I, and many, many others WORK for them…too many times people just think that they deserve something, that Nanny Govt should just do everything for them…that may be you, but it sure isnt me, and I have no pity or empathy for those who are able and dont use their talents or abilities, with certain exceptions…it depends by what you mean as “unwilling”…a vet who comes back disabled and unable to work is certainly entitled to compassion and help. Someone born mentally handicapped is certainly entitled to compassion and help. A lazyass who dropped out of school at 17 with their 3rd child and is addicted to drugs is not…see the difference?

yup, both Obama and McCain, neither offering up much change…either Bush’s 3rd term or Jimmy Carter’s 2nd…meet the new bosses, worse than the old bosses…

Can’t resist these ones:

Merkly:
“Oil is $140 a barrel for many more reasons than “Evil Oil Companies”, or just Bush”

Well, I guess that all depends on who you believe. You constantly cite third world demand, but never acknowledge that this was their plan all along. Yes, all the things you cite exist, but how can you rationalize them when they’re deliberate? If drilling for more oil was actually going to make a difference, don’t you think Bush could’ve had it going by now? Especially when they had Congress until 06? The reasons for the price of gas going up is all part of the plan, not just some coincidence. Speculators, conservative production, ‘lost’ shipments, rerouted shipments, terrorism propoganda, etc. Just as you cite all these reasons for the price being high, there’s plenty of ‘analysts’ that say it doesn’t have to be that way. Eliminate speculation, and the price gets cut in half.

“Obama would not be getting such cakewalk coverage”

You’re kidding, right? Obama gets villainized for saying, in effect, hillbillies reach for guns and god when threatened by someone different. Yet, McCain gets away with constant screwups regarding foreign policy. Remember, foreign policy IS HIS PLATFORM, and he gets away with butchering it on a daily basis.

“unless one has a legitimate defect or disability, there is very little that stands in one’s way if one has drive and determination to do it”

Again, you’re neglecting the fact that oppression still exists, keeping people down. Corporate conspiracy, lack of government oversight, privatization of the election process. All of these things make it MORE difficult for people of poverty to make good, or even participate. You villainize nanny government, as if privatization of everything is a good thing.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Coach– third world demand was their plan all along? Oil companies definitely benefit, but petroleum modernization is the quickest and easiest form of industrialization…the 3rd world is simply progressing because they finally have the capital to do so, but the Oil Companies arent financing the 3rd world into industrialization, its happening on its own…the stabilization of supply, at least from the ME is natural as well (Oil companies cant control how much oil the ground holds, nature does)…and how does one eliminate speculation? You’re not going to be totally able to stave off foreign speculation, but you can fight it by showing that the US is serious about making a showing on the oil market…speculators have it right that the US isnt going to be proactive, and are making a killing; the minute we become proactive, the market shifts, the speculators jump, and the price lowers. Refining capacity is key as well…we’re swimming in oil, and oil itself is ridiculously cheap to produce, all the price comes in with converting it into gasoline…and Bush has not anything on either, Congress as well…govt in general is just content to kick the can down the road

and Obama is getting cakewalk coverage. In every interview he’s conducted, he has not had one single, tough question asked of him…they’re all baby questions allowing him to spew platitudes, but not much of substane. McCain has had his share of criticism…from being Bush’s 3rd term, to being too old, too out of touch, and senile. I guess if you call being ignored by the media in recent weeks is good coverage, then sure (not one single media outlet, liberal or conservative, covered his trip abroad…conversely with Obama, every major news organization followed him over)

And yes, privitzation is a good thing…what exactly is wrong with you being in control of your own assets, your own life…I dont need govt to wipe my @ss, nor tell me how to do it, nor tax me on it so that others can be coddled…those things you mentioned do happen, but not as frequently as you think…not every corporation is an Enron, or every politician a Bush…I guess we must agree to disagree on some of the finer points…but fundamentally, there is nothing stopping someone of good health and mind from making something of themselves, if they have the drive and work hard…but life isnt fair, not everyone is going to be Bill Gates, but at least they’ll survive, which is a hell of a lot better than a other people in the world have it

Jed Clampett

Isn’t it interesting that the “3rd world” are the ones most intent on coming up with solutions to our energy and climate problem? Instead of working on massive systems to feed the grid and therefore the companies that take most of the value in a killowatt of electricity, they are the ones working on taking the home off the grid completely. Solar water heaters are becoming the norm. They understand that the only way to produce electricity, energy, is the way nature does it.

When you realise the actual purpose of trees… to keep harmful solar radiation from reaching the surface so that the water table can rise and nourish the vegetations roots. They are also natural carbon sinks, capturing carbon from the athmosphere and using it in their chemical processes to build more tree, thus trapping the carbon within itself for the life of the organism. Some trees, the giant redwoods for example, have been around for a very very long time trapping carbon, keeping the surface cool and producing water.

The arrival of the europeans in america’s shores and the subsequent destruction visited upon the natives, was not limited to merely the people and animals. The forests suffered greatly, any idea how much of the north american forests still remain compared to a mere 500 years ago? Look it up, you may be surprised. Just look up redwoods that should be enough to make you understand the level of destruction on such an ancient species.

Anyone who thinks this decimation of forests and the subsequent warming of the surface of the planet has no effect on climate is either totally self deluded and therfore blinded to truth or purposely trying to mislead his brethern towards a path of self destruction. Perhaps self hatred expressed in a particular subconcious fashion leads them to hate their homeworld, perhaps the profaning of some of the religions has assisted in this process, taking respect and responsability for the world in which we exists out of consideration in the hopes of magically attaining some ideal world after the destruction or perhaps death of this one.
Quite sad actually. Much different that anything seen in history.
Ir’s rather dificult to have to contend with one’s own species while trying to uncover and fend-off foreign ones.

BTW Merk: Yes, I DO believe that these oil magnates in the white house knew exactly what was going to happen with supply/demand/speculation. Why wouldn’t they? It’s also why they haven’t done anything about it, except steal someone else’s oil.

Funny little thought here: People cite demand for oil as a reason to drill for more oil……but, on the other hand, fail to acknowledge demand for renewable-fueled vehicles as a reason to build said vehicles.

Producing a million electric, highway-ready, affordable vehicles would take less time than getting any ‘newly drilled’ oil online.

Merkwurdigliebe,

This is classic. Every single point you make is designed either to shield Bush and Republican ideology from blame or to make the erroneous argument that “Democrats do it too” so Republicans shouldn’t be blamed. How can you sit there and say you are not a right wing nut? ALL YOU DO is apologize for right wing nuts.

“–housing: a completely government made problem, and not even a Republican one at that…unfortunately the vast majority who became eligible had never owned a house before, didnt have the means to pay for it, and the market collapsed”

The housing market crash wasn’t government made, it was lender-made. Banks lent to people who couldn’t pay the loans back precisely because the Bush administration DIDN’T exercise its regulatory responsibilities (republican anti-regulation ideology.) Alan Greenspan (Mr. idiot Milton Friedman Freemarket) was the moron who kept interest rates low throughout the 2000s-possibly to help Bush get re-elected???-which -in his own words- “fundamentally engendered” the housing crisis. Finally, it’s hilarious of you to say that the housing crisis was a government-made problem and not a Republican made one WHEN AT THE TIME THE ENTIRE GOVERNMENT WAS CONTROLLED BY REPUBLICANS.

“Right wing free trade agreements? Most of our current free trade agreements were signed during the Clinton Administration, so again you’re wrong”

As usual you spew idiocy. Most of our free trade agreements were signed by Bush. The only one in force that was signed by Clinton was NAFTA. According to wikipedia there are 11 free trade agreements in force today, 9 signed by Bush. And you are REALLY dumb if you think free trade ideology is a left wing policy staple. Can you say “union” moron?

“–Lost manufacturing: where have you been? We’ve been hemorrahging manufacturing jobs since the Ford years…so Bush is guilty of doing nothing, not creating the problem”

I never said Bush created the problem a#shole. But he-and his fellow Republican idealogues- have done worse than nothing, they have made the problem worse by telling Americans to shop for cheap Chinese imports and giving tax incentives to companies who outsource jobs and hire illegal labor.

“Oil is $140 a barrel for many more reasons than “Evil Oil Companies”, or just Bush. Bush is not responsible alone, Govt in general is”

Oil prices have skyrocketed from 1.20/gal in 1999 to over 4.00/gal on Bush’s watch. Those prices fluctuate daily, largely on fears of a U.S./Isrel/Iran war and the consequences. This uncertainty would not be a problem had Bush not invaded Iraq. You write that the U.S. “gov’t in general” is solely responsible for $140 a barrel oil which even you don’t believe; the only real point you have about the price of oil not being Republican’s fault is that “third world” countries are b _u_ ying oil and burning it at a far greater rate than they had it the past. Well, what exactly do you think our importing cheap Chinese crap does to the price of oil? The Chinese burn oil precisely to build and transport all this crap TO S_E_LL US. If we stopped importing all Chinese goods today the price of oil would freefall.

“Rights Abusal– so, all you have is two confirmed cases,”

“All I have is“??? You are a PURE a#shole. That’s TWO AMERICANS DETAINED AGAINST THEIR WILL AND DENIED THEIR INHERENT RIGHTS AS CITIZENS BY THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT. The amount of people is completely irrelevant. The fact is this president BROKE THE F##KING LAW, acting like a soviet dictator and what is your reaction? “well it’s only two people so we can‘t blame him.” That is simply un-American.

“if you’re not a foreign national, or a terrorist, you have, at least certainly now, nothing to worry about”

WHUH??? THE WHOLE POINT of illegally spying on people’s phone calls is to find out WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE TERRORISTS. If you already know they’re terrorists you’d have the basis to obtain a warrant to listen in on them and wouldn‘t need to do ANYTHING illegal. The FISA court existed to grant warrants to eavesdrop on people in the cases you’re talking about (spying since the Ford administration.) The whole problem with Bush was that he circumvented that court and illegally spied on U.S. phone and internet communications WITHOUT A WARRANT. Out of the major telecom carriers in the U.S. all of them but Qwest illegally complied with Bush’s orders which means the majority of people in the country have had their 4th amendment rights violated by Bush. And your point about Bush not having time to listen to hundreds of millions of people? Welcome to the information age. The NSA absolutely has the technology to record and listen to everything you and everyone else in the country says on the phone and does online. If you were a true libertarian you would be extremely angry about these programs (some of which haven’t even been disclosed yet). But instead you apologize for Bush. Big surprise, republican.

“Our freedoms have survived much worse,”

This in essence is the crux of all your arguments. It is the unifying theme throughout everything you say. Basically that theme is that since Bush isn’t as bad as H#tler we shouldn’t blame him for anything. Can you even comprehend how STUPID an argument that is? In fact, you carp on and on about how destructive lazy and irresponsible people are for this country. Then YOU ACT LAZY AND IRRESPONSIBLE BY NOT CONDEMNING A CRIMINIAL FROM YOUR OWN PARTY. Your actions appear almost cultish. What you are and have always been, Merkwurdigliebe, is a sad apologist for Republican criminals. You are lying when you call yourself a libertarian. It is the last right wing carcass you can crawl into that hasn’t been completely invalidated by Reagan and both Bushes. It is the one thing you can label yourself as without being laughed at and dismissed AND YOU DON’T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS ENOUGH TO ARGUE ON IT’S POINTS.

The notion that if things aren’t as bad as they possibly can be, then we shouldn’t change them even if they’re getting worse is destructive. It is evil and is the way towards tyranny. It is your notion, Merkwurdigliebe. It is you.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Helloo– Alright, enought is enough…you, out of your own demented neuroses and hatred for the republicans, have placed every single liberal talking point on my head…all I’ve ever suggested is that all the glitters on the Dem side isnt gold…yet your harp on and on about me being a repbulican

so smartass, lets hear a solution from you…you seem to do a lot of complaining, what are your ideals? What failed arguments of liberalism do you have left to hide your insecurities behind?… in any case, here we go again

Warrantless Wiretapping: My whole point on this was, its incredibly hypocrital and biased to single out Bush for abusing it when EVERY PRESIDENT FROM CARTER ON UP HAS “ABUSED” IT IN THE SAME WAY…GOVT KNEW ABOUT IT FOR YEARS, YET THE ONLY COMPLAINTS ABOUT IT CAME WITHING THE LAST 6 YEARS…I’m all for spreading blame, at least be evenhanded about it, had anything bad come of it, you’re damned right I’d be angry…and yes the NSA has the technology, but most of it is baseless code stored away somewhere, ala Google word searches and such…unfortunately, privacy very well doesnt exist in the information age…in any case THE COURT RECTIFIED THE SITUATION, AFTER JUDICIAL REVIEW
–Yasser Hamdi hardly qualifies as an american citizen: the only time he spent in country was the time it took his mother to birth him, and he spend the rest of his time in Saudi Arabia, effectively renouncing citizenship, and his protections under the law, same with Padilla…since they fought for no country, not in uniform, then they dont have protections afforded to them that ordinary combatents do (you act as if the administration plucked these people off the streets of Cleveland and had their way with them)…again, the THE COURT RECTIFIED THE SITUATION, AS IS ITS JOB IN CASES OF THE EXECUTIVE OVERSTEPPING ITS BOUNDS
–The housing problem is deeply tied with Govt in general, and Repubs only had at best a slim majority (meaning that plenty of Dems went along, particularly Chris Dodd, sh*tting on your moronic monolithic republican govt theory)
–Your free trade story is utter BS…all of those treaties signed were modeled after NAFTA, or were corollaries to it…making THEM AN EXSTENTION OF CLINTON ERA POLICIES

So, Helloo, what you have been is a classic obfuscating liberal, who mixes half-truths and slander, and when all else fails, resorts to name calling and other slander…allright tough guy, I’m such a moron faux-Libertarian, educate me with your brilliance imparted from on high…what’s your solution, if you have one in the angry rhetoric besides tired, warmed-over communist-lite ideas

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Besides all we’re arguing over is OPINION. You want to proclaim Bush the antichrist, and because I suggest that it’s a little bit partisan to suggest that he’s just an inept President at the end of his rope, you bitch and moan. Its YOUR OPINION that the Bush administration is the worst in history, while MY OPINION lies on it being elsewhere (Buchanan or Harding, or perhaps Andrew Johnson)…

you have been nothing but a Dem apologizer, glossing over everything in “big bad republicans”, exusing Democratic inaction in every major event for the last 8 years. Blame belongs on both sides of the house, for a myriad of US problems– with inept Bush, with spineless dems, and everyone in between…so dont try to paint me as some sort of Republican apologist you spineless piece of wormsh*t…the Dems are in similar position now that the Republicans were in for many years…yet only the Repubs know how to strong arm and be dictators…quit swallowing your own sh*t propaganda and wake up to the fact that the whole governmental system is broken, and Dem and Repub alike have put us there

Jed Clampett

wow, I was gonna read the gliebe’s retort, but after the first couple of paragraphs he degrades into stupidity. Without really making any points other than to show his ignorance. I’m afraid reading any of it is more poison to the mind than even entertaining for it’s absurdity. As Hellooo points out, it is destructive, evil and the way of the tyrant.

hmm, kinda like anything you post, right Jed? hubris much? There was nothing of substance at all in half your posts on this site…

Jed Clampett

I gues it wasn’t meant for you then. Perhaps you are more in tune with the Glib and SITM… in which case I refer you to my first three ’substanceless’ posts on this thread.

Merk: “the Dems are in similar position now that the Republicans were in for many years…yet only the Repubs know how to strong arm and be dictators”

You’re out of your mind. The Dems haven’t had total majority (white house and congress) since 1994. Look at everything that’s happened to this country since then……..coincidental? Maybe. Probably not, though….

The republiclowns gained majority in congress in 1994 and proceeded to shut down congress, impeach a president over a blowjob, and force the president to pull out of Somalia. Then, they got the White House in 2000 to go along with their majority in congress. Since then….well, I really don’t have to go into it.

But, don’t, for one minute, act as though the democrats are a part of something that they couldn’t stop even if they tried. That’s a joke, man. Own up. Be a man. If the Democrats were screwing up the country this bad, you can bet some of us in here would own up to it. But, for us to sit here and listen to republican apologists is unfathomable in this day and age. Grow a set, man.

Let’s not forget that the republickers also told Clinton to pull the plug on the search for bin Laden, which happened twice…..and, has happened again.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Coach– I’d advise you to follow your own advice…the Republicans dont need any more criticizing because the local nightly news does that…their failures are written in the Country’s energy policy, foreign policy blunders, and the collapsing dollar, and will be duly recorded in the histroy books, with the Dems recorded as the party who at every turn had the opportunity to stand up for what was right either stayed silent or played politics…tell your hallowed Dems to grow a pair. The republican margin of lead has only been large about twice, the rest of the time the tables have been about even…either way, did the Dems stand up for what was right? And even with their majorities, nothing gets done on capitol hill without both parties’ consent…sh*t doesnt work unless all the pigs at the trough are remotely happy

in any case, the Dems have a majority now;

–They control the power of the purse on the Iraq war…if they wanted the war over, have the balls to stop funding it.
–You want impeachment so bad? Let your hallowed dems have the balls to actively bring it up, instead of sending a loon like Kucinich who’s bound to be called a crackpot
–You want blame for the housing collapse? Looke no further than Chris Dodd, the man so deep in the case that I’m suprised he’s not buried in over his head

Its been two years since the Dems gained the majority, and they’ll keep it in the next election…yet somehow the evil republicans are still “evil” enought to sabotage everythng…huh? How long do you think it’ll take before YOU wake up and see that all side of govt are screwing us like the pooch…how they keep upping their salaries (strange, I though only repubs were wealthy bastards…) while the average man’s drops

So you’re damn right I’m not going to let the Dems off the hook…the people of American want answers and the stock “…well the evil republicans” isnt going to cut it much longer. They’e had a majority for two years. If they wanted to do something with it, they would have done so long ago…Instead we the people got more of the same…so shove your tired “republican apologist” crap and man up and take a long hard look at the other side of the coin…you wont see much of a backbone, or much of a difference

Jed Clampett

It would seem that the only way to get something done in congress is to follow the gliebe’s advice. Republicans are the greater of two evils in our corrupted political system. Even with a simple majority congress becomes deadlocked and inneficient due to the obstructionist tactics employed by the Republican leadership.
As he himself has shown, it only took a few years in control of the nations purse and it’s influence, when used in the style of a maffia to bribe and intimidate, for Repubublicans to take us to the edge of the precipice that we currently face. Seems a valid course of action would be to first remove any sense of influence the repubes might have. An intense campaign must be mounted to expose the misdeeds and crooked relationships as well as their effects on society perpetrated by the Republican party. Then, carefully examine the members of the Democrat party leadership and look for any other ‘cozy’ relationships. The people are the ones suppossed to have the power in this country, yet more and more I find people who feel powerless, they don’t apparently realize that their voices, in the way of emails, can be very powerful. If that doesn’t work, mass demonstrations of support for the cause by walking the streets in mass to show the government the people’s desire. If that still doesn’t work to change our political system, activism is required. A greater sense of volunteerism in agencies with noble causes goes a long way to making reparations. If government still doesn’t cooperate or actually starts working against the will of the populace, then only revolution and dissolution of the political as well as leadership structure is the historical solution. That may happen by natural means, attrition after loss of confidence in the political system… as the republicans with their mouthpiece the gliebe are attempting to convince you of… to such an extent that those with wealth take flight or stop using their untold amounts of wealth to keep the economy humming, or unnaturally, with a cataclysmic event that forces total dissolution of the current system and replacement of it by something else… not always guaranteed to be something better if history is any indication.

Remove Republican’s destructive influence and unpatriotic activities from the sphere of political influence in federal government. Give democrats the 60% majority in both houses they need to get anything of value accomplished.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

No…givi ng the dems 60% control would remove one sh*t party from the wheel and put an equally sh*tty party in its place…these people all collaborate with one another, raise each others salaries, turn the other way when some corporation passes money their way for some cause (Dem and Repub), and all stand to gain whether the people do or not…you want to improve washington by…leaving a major washington party in control? Huh? The Dems havent exactly made a case for them to be in charge other than, “well, we’re not the republicans and we dont really do anything…”

If one wants real change, then the system has got to be opened and cleaned up…reboot the whole damn thing, out with the Republicants and the Do Nothing Dems both…there is not greater of two evils in this situation, both parties have proved themselves either incapable or unwilling to listen to the American people, and both have proved willing to line their own coffers or play politics instead of putting the country first

If ever there was a time for a viable 3rd party, now is it…perhaps along the lines of Germany’s Die Zentrum, or whatever the Center party is called…because our’s sure as hell aint cutting it.

Jed Clampett

so you think the best solution is destruction? wow, how did I not see that coming. DOE

That is exactly what I’m proposing, except I’m more of a realist in that I don’t think your proposal of just merely disbanding the parties would work. It does not address the main problem… greed and it’s influence among our political class. Sen Bob Ney should have gotten no less than life for treason. Is not stealing from your nation tantamount to treason? Secondly, these guys are very wealthy and entrenched, if their cash cow is threatened as thoroughly and visciously as you suggest you will get a serious blowback and you will undesrtand just how inhumane and unamerican selfish pigs really can be. They start and maintain wars abroad, what mekes you think they would have any hesitation to doing that here if it was necessary?
Wake up fool!!

Merk, there may not be a greater of two evils or a lesser of two evils, but at least the Dems don’t conduct illegal wars which lead to the deaths of over 4 thousand american soldiers, which happens to be more than the number of people killed on 9/11. Dems may be ‘do nothings’, but don’t you think that label has been aided by the ‘block everything’ republicans?

How can you ‘do something’, if everything you do gets ‘blocked’?? Veto, fillibuster, veto, fillibuster, veto, fillibuster…….Get it??

Merkwurdigliebe,

Your incoherence speaks for itself. According to you if a U.S. citizen spends enough time abroad he/she is not a citizen anymore? I mean at least TRY to make sense.

The fact is that U.S. citizens have the right to a trial REGARDLESS of who they’re fighting for (Hamdi v. Rumsfeld). Just because the president says the magic words “enemy combatant“ does not mean he can break the law by depriving citizens of their rights and torturing them. The right of habeas corpus, to a speedy trial, is FUNDAMENTALLY ENSHRINED IN THE CONSTITUTION. It is at the heart of what it means to be an American and was so important to the founders that it is among the first rights granted. You apparently are so eager to protect the Republican brand that you try to gloss over the fact that members of the Bush administration can legitimately be tried and convicted of war crimes for their enactment of such extreme rights abuses. Look up David Addington, Cheney’s right hand lawyer of whom Colin Powel said “he doesn’t believe in the constitution.” Now try to defend him some more.

You write about warrantless wiretapping: “EVERY PRESIDENT FROM CARTER ON UP HAS “ABUSED” IT IN THE SAME WAY”

That is just FLAT WRONG. Bush, through an executive order, started illegally wiretapping citizens in 2002, instituting programs that were so egregious THEY PROMPTED THE ENTIRE TOP TIER OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT (F*CKING JOHN ASHCROFT FOR CHRISTSAKE) TO RESIGN EN MASSE if they weren‘t stopped. If every president spied in the same way, then why the hell would Ashcroft have taken a job as attorney general in the first place? If “abusing civil liberties” was so commonplace, as you suggest, then why did congress pass a bill shielding telecom companies from prosecution ONLY FROM LAW BREAKING RELATING TO THE TERRORIST SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM BUSH AUTHORIZED?

Oh yeah, you asked me to provide you with solutions. First, close down Guantanamo Bay prison and the CIA black sites (most of the prisoners there are completely innocent anyway) and try the remaining detainees in civilian U.S. courts in accordance with Boumediene v. Bush, No. 06-1195.

Second, repeal the idiotic FISA Amendment Act Bush just signed and allow the civil suits against the major telecoms to move forward; Americans deserve to know exactly how extensively Bush violated their 4th amendment rights. And so what if those suits bankrupt the telecoms? As you say, Merkwurdigliebe, that’s just a few less powerfully entrenched lobbyists to corrupt our politicians.

“Its been two years since the Dems gained the majority, and they’ll keep it in the next election…yet somehow the evil republicans are still “evil” enought to sabotage everythng…huh?”

Why are you acting confused? That is EXACTLY what is happening. To get anything done with this ideologically diseased a$$hole of a president, congress has to have a veto-proof majority. The president has vetoed 12 bills since the Dems won in 2006. He vetoed NONE before then. Why? So that idiots like you could call the Democratic congress “do nothing.“ And what were those vetoes overturning? Children’s health insurance, veterans care, aid to Hurricane Katrina victims, easing restrictions on stem cell research, improving medicare and enacting a timeline for troop withdrawal from Iraq among other things.

“No…givi ng the dems 60% control would remove one sh*t party from the wheel and put an equally sh*tty party in its place…”

Again, this is Republican apologist crap on its face. You see all those things I listed above that Bush vetoed? Those would have been enacted and celebrated, as the public overwhelmingly supports most of them (who the hell vetoes a bill providing health insurance for children? That is about the sh*ttiest thing you can do in life). Instead, Bush has belligerently refused to even work with the Democrats in congress because he wants to drive their favorable ratings down. If you were half honest (god what a funny concept, Merkwurdigliebe being honest) you would allow that you have NO IDEA what would have happened had the Dems gotten a veto-proof majority for the past 2 years and therefore NO basis to call the dems an “equally sh*tty” party. Like I said, this is Republican apologist crap from someone who understands that the ONLY chance for his hated party this November is to make the Democrats seem just as bad. Nice try, Republican.

Oh yeah, you want a solution to this one too? Simple. Eject Republican ideologues from government at all levels.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Helloo– You’re right, but should it not be a special case with Hamdi? He spent his entire life being taught and told to hate the US in Saudi Arabia…he has no more connection to this country than some Indian in the middle of the Amazon…but so be it. I agree with you: give them fair trials, and dont torture them (though I dont consider sleep deprivation and alternation of temperatures, or loud music, torture)…that said, what happens if a bunch of them are released for abusals to their miranda rights? As for them “all being innocent”, the LA Times, that bastion of conservative Republican thinking, put the total number of “possible innocents” at the most, 15%. So the notion that these people were simply picked up wrongly on the road to Kandahar is retarded…so, if one of those “innocents” is released on a technichality, then you’re totally ok with them showing up in Iraq with a suicide bomb strapped to their chest? When another plane is flown into a builing I suppose we’ll know exactly who to thank…give them trials, but they dont deserve the rights of US born citizens, save for Padilla (Hamdi, no). And, be prepared when these “innocents” are blowing sh*t up elswhere in the world once they’re released

as for Wiretapping, it was documeted to have been used under President Reagan with United States v. Duggan, which involved IRA terrorists, and again under Clinton with US v. Nicholson…so yes, previous presidents used FISA, but not a peep is heard until now. But by all means the telecoms should have immunity…they’re in a damned if you do situation. They help the govt, and get accused of breaching Constitutional rights, despite the fact that it has yet to be documented that any american citizen was harmed in the wiretapping (as it dealt with foreign calls…hmm foreign, not subject to constitutional protection…), and if they didnt offer their help and a terrorist attack happened, you’d be up in arms as to why something wasnt done to prevent it. And Nacchio and Qwest is a specious argument…Nacchio’s allegations are highly suspect, and he’s trying to save his skin for his own bad business decisions…but by all means, open up the telecoms…we’ll see who’s right and who’s wrong

And what about all those bills you cited? Lets start with the bloated Childrens healthcare bill, 35 Bil in pork for an estimated 4 million “kids” (the definition was expanded to cover someone up to 25 years old, talk about delayed childhood), and was to be payed for via a backdoor cigarette tax…and it was all for show. The Dems could have put forward a more reasonable bill, but instead overloaded the bill so that Bush would veto. Both sides prosper. Bush gets to exercise his veto and look like he’s fiscally conservative (he’s not). The Dems get to lament the plight of the poor children, and get a bump in the polls, saying they’re outraged, when they put forth a doomed bill in the first place (they’re not). Only a moron or a blatant democratic partisan would not see the game both parties are playing.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

And what about all those bills you cited? Lets start with the bloated Childrens healthcare bill, 35 Bil in pork for an estimated 4 million “kids” (the definition was expanded to cover someone up to 25 years old, talk about delayed childhood), and was to be payed for via an exhorbitant backdoor cigarette tax…and it was all for show. The Dems could have put forward a more reasonable bill, but instead overloaded the bill so that Bush would veto. Both sides prosper. Bush gets to exercise his veto and look like he’s fiscally conservative (he’s not). The Dems get to lament the plight of the poor children saying they’re outraged, when they put forth a doomed bill in the first place, WHICH THEY KNEW HAD NO CHANCE OF PASSING(they’re not, all for political gain). Only a moron or a blatant democratic partisan would not see the game both parties are playing.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

how bout that vaulted Katrina aid? The bill tried to backdoor the rest of the country to pay for past Louisana spending (in the hands of Democrats) mistakes. Millions upon millions were poured into Democratically held stronghold of New Orleans to help build the levees…and the money myseriously went to other projects…so when all of the levees and whatever else failed, ol Mary Landrieu wanted the rest of the US to foot the bill on a whole other lot of domestic spending then the lotted money for just the levees. Yeah, like that one was going to fly…had the money been properly spent in the first place, and bill not exhorbitantly loaded with pork, it would have passed

As for the timeline? C’mon, do you honestly think Bush was going to go for it? He’s kicking the can down the road. As for stemcells, let the private sector, where most advances come anyway, fund it. Plenty of tax paying americans dont agree with it, and would not like federal dollars supporting it. Change the publics views on it, and you’re in like flynn.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

The bad one is veterans care. This WAS a heinous veto, but wouldnt have been vetoed had it not ALSO been stuffed with pork and unessessary spending…but the Dems loaded it with all the excess crap that would automatically make it vetoed…if they really wanted Veterans care, why not put it in its own separate bill?

Merk, the whole Iraq ‘war’ was a bunch of pork, but millions of Americans are okay with it.

And, maybe you should take it easy on the scare tactics by citing these ‘innocents’ strapping a bomb to themselves.

Question: Would an Iraqi roadside bomb kill any Americans if we weren’t there???? As for the planes flying into buildings, well, I, for one, understand why they hate America. And, I, for one, believe we probably deserved it. Besides, don’t use 9/11 as a springboard if you’re not even going to look for the alleged perpetrator of 9/11. That makes me sick.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Coach– sure; Abdallah Salih al-Ajmi, who successfully detonated himself in Mosul. Also, Airat Vahkitov and Rustam Ahkmyarov, both of whom were released and were re-arrested for trying to execute terrorist attacks in Russia. Others include: Mohammed Ismail, Abdul Rahman Noor, Muhammad Nayim Farouq, and Mullah Shahzada are just a few of the known ones. Also the fact that the Govt isnt sure of the whereabouts of other detainees adds to the case thats these guys are for the most part nasty people and are anything but innocent. So anyone who alleges so if full o chit, or a liar.

I’m not going to go as far as to say we deserved 9/11, but we sure as hell should have seen it coming. I also understand why they “hate” us, and there a myriad of different reasons (it varies from organization to organization) Our ME policy was/is stuck in the Cold War paradigm of we can do whatever, because if we dont the Soviets will…well they’re not around anymore, and our policy has yet to change. At the very least our policy towards the ME needs to become more aloof and detached

This one was certainly avoided by Glirbe:

“Would an Iraqi roadside bomb kill any Americans if we weren’t there????”

Merkwurdigliebe wrote:

“You’re right, but should it not be a special case with Hamdi? He spent his entire life being taught and told to hate the US in Saudi Arabia”

No Hamdi is not a special case. Just because you’re not tried by military commission does not mean you won’t be tried and held responsible in a U.S. court for whatever crimes you may have committed. This is not hard to understand. Also, treating ANYONE as a special case is extremely problematic legally. What exactly is so great about Hamdi that he’s treated as “special?” The entire problem is that this is how the administration could theoretically treat anyone who disagreed with it.

“…so, if one of those “innocents” is released on a technichality, then you’re totally ok with them showing up in Iraq with a suicide bomb strapped to their chest?”

Of course not. The prospect of dangerous prisoners being released on a “technicality” is exactly the reason NOT to torture them or deprive them due process in the first place. If one of those very few dangerous detainees were released on a technicality the fault would lie with the Bush administration for creating that technicality. As for whether these people still present a danger, Bush plans to release a third of the remaining detainees (100 Yemenis) before they can challenge their detention in U.S. court pursuant to Boumediene v. Bush. That shows you he thinks they’re more dangerous to his party politically than to the security of the nation. Originally, 775 detainees were brought to Guantanamo and since then more than half have been released WITHOUT CHARGE. Of the remaining 355 detainees, Bush plans to try 60-80 of them AND RELEASE THE REST. You can divide right, Merkwurdigliebe? 80/755? Times 100? That’s 11% of Guantanamo detainees that are “dangerous” enough only to warrant a trial at best– AND THEY HAVEN’T EVEN BEEN FOUND GUILTY YET!

A precedent to look at would be what the U.S. did with Japanese and Germans interned in camps after WW2. In the case of the Japanese, prisoners were given $25 dollars and told to go home. And no, they did not plan and carry out another attack on Pearl Harbor. The only thing to fear, Merkwurdigliebe, is fear itself.

“But by all means the telecoms should have immunity…they’re in a damned if you do situation. “

The telecoms were not in a “damned if you do“ situation. The only burden on the telecoms was that they follow the law. Before this idiotic FISA Amendment Act just because the president told you to break the law didn’t mean you were immune from prosecution if you did. Qwest, one of the largest telecom carriers in the U.S. refused to cooperate with Bush’s surveillance program because it KNEW that program was illegal. It didn’t have to comply at all.

“it has yet to be documented that any american citizen was harmed in the wiretapping”

It is well documented that telecoms illegally spied on U.S. citizens DOMESTICALLY. That “harms” them by violating their 4th amendment rights.

“Nacchio’s allegations are highly suspect, and he’s trying to save his skin for his own bad business decisions”

Nacchio’s Qwest lost hundreds of millions of dollars worth of federal contracts BECAUSE HE FOLLOWED THE LAW. Only in your twisted world would “following the law” amount to a “bad business decision.”

“as for Wiretapping, it was documeted to have been used under President Reagan with United States v. Duggan, which involved IRA terrorists, and again under Clinton with US v. Nicholson…so yes, previous presidents used FISA,”

You obviously do not understand this issue. US. V Duggan concerned a case where the government obtained an order from the FISA court allowing them to wiretap the defendants. The exact opposite is true of Bush: Bush DID NOT obtain a warrant from the FISA court before he spied on MILLIONS OF AMERICANS. That is the whole point.

US v Nicholson was a domestic drug case where the question was whether police illegally searched a guy’s bag. That’s a question of police overstepping their authority and is totally irrelevant to warrantless surveillance in violation of FISA.

Now here we come to the part where you defend Bush’s vetoes ONE BY ONE. Seriously Merkwurdigliebe, can you EVER legitimately claim not to be a Bush defender? Can you even legitimately claim to be a libertarian with your full embrace of telecom immunity? No. If you want to learn, check out Ron Paul for what an actual Libertarian would do with regards to telecom immunity.

On the children’s health care bill you wrote:
“The Dems could have put forward a more reasonable bill, but instead overloaded the bill [with pork] so that Bush would veto.”

WHAT???? Bush has signed bills with “bridges to nowhere” in them for 6 YEARS before this congress came to power. Why would the democrats assume-as you suggest-that Bush would veto their bill because of pork when he’s signed so many other pork-laden bills? The fact is that Bush vetoed this bill because his diseased Republican ideals lead him to hate anything that directs money away from business and towards middle and low income families AND because he wants you to think the Democrats run a “do nothing” congress.

On Katrina aid: BUSH SLASHED FUNDING FOR LEVEE PROJECTS you twit. He drained the funding from the flood control project to pay for the war in Iraq. He sent a totally disproportionate amount of relief money to Republican-controlled Mississippi at the expense of Democratically controlled New Orleans precisely to make idiots like you think the Democrats weren’t doing their jobs. He vetoed this bill designed to correct his ideologically diseased decision for the same reason: to suck hope out of the former residents of New Orleans by making them think their Democratic congress won’t do anything for them.

On veterans care:
“The bad one is veterans care. This WAS a heinous veto, but wouldnt have been vetoed had it not ALSO been stuffed with pork and unessessary spending”

Again, Bush has signed so many pork-laden bills that your argument is totally false. The reason he vetoed this bill was to stop Democrats from gaining political traction with military families by making them feel the Democrats were a “do nothing congress.”

Bush’s vetoes are and always have been about one thing: limiting the political influence of the Democrats. I’ll say it again Merkwurdigliebe, your party’s only hope of winning in November is to make the Democrats seem just as bad. In your mind painting them as a “do nothing congress” is sufficient. That was Bush’s idea too and the truth is that it’s a desperate plan. The Democrats are slated to win big in November. Get used to it, stop fighting and join the side of the intelligent.

Jed Clampett

I love reading how The Attorney(hellooo) just tears him a new one everytime. It’s amazing he even attempts to post anymore, but if anything is true about these creatures, they are persistent and relentless.

Keep shining that light on them, more power to you.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Hellooo– your arguments is specious becuase: FOREIGN NATIONALS DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO DUE PROCESS UNDER THE US CONSTITUION…only Hamdi and Padilla are subject to such protections. And bring on the torture allegations. Loud noise, sleep deprivation, temperature changes are not torture. The only thing close would be waterboarding, which we use on our own troops in training. When we start sawing off heads, strapping electrodes to genitals, and ripping out finergernails come talk to me.

Did you even read my posts? I offered name after name of people released who returned to either Iraq or Afghanistan and continued to fight successfully. By all means SOME are innocent. The vast majority, time and time again, are nasty, nasty people. But give them their day in court…why civilian is beyond me, but its better than nothing. You’re japanese argument is stupid as well: they didnt attack Pearl Harbor again because we put mushroom clouds over two of their cities

Again, you didnt read my post. I said open everything on the telecoms. See exactly what was done, but as I said they were in a damned if you do, damned if you dont situation…and I cited those case to A)prove that other presidencies used the system, and Reagan in particular was documented several times not to have used warrants, Clinton as well and thus that it was well known, and B) THAT IT IS RIDICULOUSLY PARTISAN TO ALL OF THE SUDDEN RAISE A STINK ABOUT IT. If you cant see that it wasnt politically motivated, I’m sorry, you might just be a dumbass.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Jed– If theres anything you’ve proven, its that you ad nothing to the debate, and are almost, if not always, wrong in whatever you post. And whenever you do post, its rumblings about spirits and gaia, and other treebark elliptical cr*p that in general has nothing to do with the content of the post…and all who disagree are obviously possessed by demons

so, for once, me and the Penguin seem to be in agreeance here: you can go f*ck yourself

(Merkwurdigliebe)

As for the vetoes– please, only a die-hard lib with dem (blank) in thro.at would try to pin the whole thing on the “big bad Repubs”…I only explained why Bush vetoed it, and why/how both parties benefited. When/Where have I defended them? A detective spelling out the facts of a murder isnt defending it.

Also, aside from the half-facts you spew on court related matters, you love to infer on just about every one of your points. Its YOUR OPINION that you state time and time over, not fact. We disagree in some areas, agree in others, such as court trials and telecoms, you simply seem blind to the proposition that the Dem party is anything but golden…BOTH parties benefitted from the vetoes. And I do expect the Dems to win big in Nov, but I wont await with baited breath commie-lite d.m.v. care, nor high t.axes

Jed Clampett

Yaaawwwwnnnn!!

Jeez kid, you sure are boring. Seems you are getting locked in an endless idiocy loop, it’s about time you took a nap. Go to sleep!!

and Jed brings in another winning post! One with style, grace, substance…oh, wait, no, once again, just basic pap…ho hum, there wasnt even a raving, meandering statement about the spirits…what gives dude?

pot calling the kettle black much? Must be fun to be a bunch o morons arguing back and forth over semantics…

Jed Clampett

Gosh, If you were to rile against something I said I would expect it to be my thoughts about ET. But I guess the thought of God and of humans finding their link too it and realizing their true power scares you more. What if God was ALL OF US? We may just have the power necessary to defend ourselves from what approaches, as long as we believe. Apparently you hope to crush that belief in others as you have done within yourself. Why? that much self loathing? don’t answer, it’s evident in your past writings.

I don’t talk about spirits… I talk about THE spirit. That which some ancients called Gaia, asians call qi, indians call prana, new agers call ‘the universal field of information’ and the buddhist choose to leave nameless. The modern theologies have chosen jehova, yahwe, god and allah, but the name does not matter, the idea, the inspiration is the same. To attain a spiritual level superior to the one we now occupy in order to achieve greater serenity, peace and a harmony with all things. With that understanding, I see why you have so much reviled against religion, theology or even the philosophy of life that makes us all one human species. You are devolving into that destructive, unharmonizing, monotheistic, prejudicial, violent past of the dinosaurs… like Moe Sleestack on the Simpsons Movie, you are headed the opposite way than the rest of humanity… too bad you want to take the rest with you, then again, I would expect no less from those such as your.

kumbayah, kumbayah…woah man! I was really feeling it…I was gonna ask you to pass the peace pipe, but I’m already reeling from the contact high…phew, you can smell the patchouli through the monitor baby!

shoot, if only you could sit the arabs, jews, and christians all down together with one o’ your spiritual eructations, why I do believe your little “universal oneness…ommmmm” spiel may just s.ell it…probably not

here’s to moving against humanity anyway! After all, I’d rather be a fool alone than a wannabe mystic full of themselves or part of the dull herd lurching along in conformity to shallow graves…the authentic man, in Satre’s terms…the world ends in 2012 anyways so, live it up baby…guaranteed I’ll be laughing when your spirit doesnt show…

Jed Clampett

peace pipe wouldn’t do you any good fool, you wouldn’t understand it’s significance or the honor and status it held. Treaties signed and sealed with the smoking of the peace pipe were sacrosanct in native american societies. Apparently the whites had none of these things. Not even the decency to honor their commitments or their constitution. Now they can’t even accept the word genocide in their treatment of natives, even though it is well documented that they gave blankets loaded with measles and other disease for that very purpose.

Ridicule all you want little puppett, member of the precipitous herd, change is coming whether you like it or not. And spirit is already here moron, it’s everywhere, and if you had some sense, you’d be able to feel it and perhaps even see it… then again, you wouldn’t possibly be able to understand what you are looking at.
I am merely it’s requisite warning. If you tried to understand those cultures you rile against and attemp to make others hate as much as you do, you might realize they arent very far off the mark. You just might understand what is happening to our world. Then again, I truly doubt you’d be able to handle the truth or even understand the language and method of communicating used. It’s evident you are consumed by the ‘dark side’ your hero ‘the penguin’(dick cheney) so easily consumed himself with.

Keep spitting out propagandist talking points though. You help me expose just how it has been done through the ages, the words that have been used to profane that which is sacred. But you know, try as you might, evil fu*ks the likes of you and the Republicu#t leadership wont shake our faith. Enjoy your ride home.

Yawn, my heart bleeds for the past…unless you have a way back machine, it means diddley…terrible yes, but what does one expect another to do? Is monetary compensation just in the light of such atrocities? Who knows/cares? You, I, Nobody?

but whoo-eee arent we uppity…touched a nerve eh mr. Clampett? You’re confusing the Merk with me…he/she/its post made reference to the penguin (cheney?), whilst I was laughing on sidelines at you chuckleheads…one smug mug battles another in e-thunderdome cr*ptacular!

ah yes, I’m the puppet, grand seer of invisible shadows sowing sorrow in empty boats or somesuch…I guess you would know what being a puppet feels like, enslaved to whatever hoodoo is dancing out of the end of your spliff at any given moment…and yes the spirit is all around you…lots of spirits dude, its what happens when you stop taking your medicine…or keep taking it, if you’re Ken Kesey fan

besides, I’m not full of hate, merely snark, keeping myself occupied on uber-serious boards, what with otherworldly spirits being the subject of every post…or just yours…each reality to ones own, right? But of course I must be evil because I battle one absurdity with another, after all the great Jed Clampett cant be wrong…whilst the world keeps on turning…lemme know what keeps you going, cuz one puff of your stuff, and WHOAH BABY! to the moon alice!

Jed Clampett

whatever you want it to be baby, it’s imaginationland. and the sh*t you people are imagining is self destructive. Nature has a way of doing away with those. The world won’t end, but the whole scene will change in a bad way if not corrected and soon. reagardless of what you think or feel or refuse to.

As it stands, other than insults and derisions, you don’t seem to have much of an imagination for anything. Besides, my post was to you morons as a whole, if the limited speak of the english language allowed a distinction, I would have done so. however, if you feel identified, must be so.

Jed Clampett

Reparations done in good intent. The reasons this country is falling appart is because our politicians are acting in bad faith, with bad intent. Once they do this the project is doomed to failure. and failue of catastrophic consequences.

Instead of reservations and having their culture ravaged by poverty and alcoholism, natives should have been revered. their culture and understanding of our homeworld should have been held on a pedestal for all to admire. What they got was much different than the treaties signed under the pipe. The natives had good intent, the foreigners did not. They still don’t, and what’s worse, they refuse to realize it. Of the ancient cultures, it seems only the tibetans have been spared to some extent and even they are now threatened more than ever.
Is it so difficult for you to see, or just simply easy to blame your bretheren as you are told to do rather than take an objective look at situations.
Try to paint me as a cook all you want. I haven’t spent all the time I have studying religions and cultures for nothing and whether or not you believe me or anything of substance, there are others who do. Those are the ones that matter and the ones that will be protected.
Check your polarity, if your not fluid enough to change, you will be cast out with great force.

Merkwurdigliebe wrote:

“your arguments is specious becuase: FOREIGN NATIONALS DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO DUE PROCESS UNDER THE US CONSTITUION…only Hamdi and Padilla are subject to such protections. And bring on the torture allegations.”

“I agree with you: give them fair trials, and dont torture them. that said, what happens if a bunch of them are released for abusals to their miranda rights?”

You make no sense at all. Miranda rights are part of due process. And are you now arguing that these foreign prisoners WON’T be released on a “technicality?” Your entire point before was that we cannot try the people at Guantanamo because we’ve already tortured them and because of that they could be set free “on a technicality.” Now you’re saying the opposite: that the -foreign- detainees weren’t deprived of any rights and weren’t tortured. Well if you believe that then why were you afraid of trying them? THE WHOLE POINT OF A TRIAL IS TO FIND OUT WHETHER SOMEONE IS GUILTY AND THEREFORE DANGEROUS.

“You’re japanese argument is stupid as well: they didnt attack Pearl Harbor again because we put mushroom clouds over two of their cities”

“The vast majority [of Guantanamo detainees,] time and time again, are nasty, nasty people.”

You misunderstood. I was talking about U.S. citizens of Japanese descent interned in camps for almost the duration of WW2 as a model for what we should do with Guantanamo detainees. As I‘ve written (you don‘t read my posts do you?), the Bush administration is already treating the two groups similarly: Bush is trying to release 100 (1/3 of the remaining detainee population) Yemenis WITHOUT TRIAL precisely because HE KNOWS THEY‘RE NOT DANGEROUS. Bush only wants to try at most 80 detainees (11% of the overall detainee population) because THEY’RE THE ONLY ONES HE THINKS ARE “NASTY” PEOPLE. These facts invalidate your argument completely: the vast majority of Guantanamo detainees are NOT nasty, nasty people. I believe they should be tried and if acquitted, returned to their country of origin.

“I offered name after name of people released who returned to either Iraq or Afghanistan and continued to fight successfully.”

You offered the names of 7 people. Can you divide? Of the overall detainee population 7 people represents 0.9% of the detainees. That is another direct refutation of your argument that “the vast majority of detainees are nasty, nasty people.” And since you’re agreeing with me that the detainees at Guantanamo deserve a trial I fail to see the relevance of this argument. Once again, a trial will determine whether or not these people really are “nasty.” That .9% of the detainees have “returned to the battlefield,” (all of them without a trial in a U.S. civilian court) is not an argument for denying a trial for all detainees indefinitely.

“A)prove that other presidencies used the system, and Reagan in particular was documented several times not to have used warrants, Clinton as well and thus that it was well known, and B) THAT IT IS RIDICULOUSLY PARTISAN TO ALL OF THE SUDDEN RAISE A STINK ABOUT IT.

You seem to be really confused. That Reagan “used the system” by not using warrants is LEGAL under FISA in certain cases. In the case you cited Reagan actually GOT a warrant anyway so I don‘t understand your point. In the Clinton case you cited FISA was legally used as well. Again, what‘s your point?

The whole difference-AGAIN-is that Bush spied ILLEGALLY by VIOLATING the FISA act. This is not hard to understand. Even the Bush administration acknowledges it acted outside the act’s scope. The companies Bush sought the help of KNOWINGLY BROKE THE LAW by providing him communications of U.S. citizens. All of this is a matter of fact and has been well recorded: Bush broke the law.

It is not partisan to hold a president accountable for breaking the law because the law is not partisan. It IS partisan to imply he should not be held accountable just because he shares your views as YOU ARE DOING, Merkwurdigliebe.

“As for the vetoes– please, only a die-hard lib with dem (blank) in thro.at would try to pin the whole thing on the “big bad Repubs””

It‘s funny that you don‘t even try to argue. You just desperately throw insults around. It’s a classic statement from someone who has lost an argument.

“Its YOUR OPINION that you state time and time over, not fact. We disagree in some areas, agree in others, such as court trials and telecoms, you simply seem blind to the proposition that the Dem party is anything but golden”

I’m going to take this as your acknowledgement that you have lost this argument as I have been providing facts, not opinions, all along. That, along with the irrelevant arguments you’ve employed to excuse Bush’s law-breaking lend credence to MY OPINION that you know you’ve lost this argument and are ready to cry “uncle.” Is that opinion based on fact or not? As in our other posts, the reason you won’t let this go is that a “liberal” has shattered your ego and proven you wrong on every single argument we’ve had. I almost feel bad for you.