These right-wing extremeists are such a joke. Obama says ‘talk’, and they interpret that as ‘negotiate’.

What a phucking joke. Never, not once, did Obama say NEGOTIATE with these leaders. He said TALK to, and maybe find out what it is they don’t like about the U.S.

Problem is, if you talk to someone who’s mad at you, you might actually find out that their reasoning is perfectly understandable. Neocons be damned! Thanks for nothing, you no good losers. Every single one of them can go to hell for all I’m concerned. What they’ve done to global relations is inexcuseable. And, isn’t it quite obvious by now that they’re absolutely wrong about everything that comes out of their self-fulfilling pieholes?

I think its time to pin a note to CK’s sweater and leave him at the dog track.

Mr. Krauthammer ignores decades of negotiations with the Soviet Union, pointing out approvingly that Truman didn’t meet with Stalin. But Nixon and the Greatest President Ever, Ronald Reagan, met regularly and without preconditions with the head of the state he called the Evil Empire. The head of the only state that could obliterate every American in a way that Ahmadinejad only wishes he could dream. Was that foolish? Should Reagan have insisted on Gorbachev tearing down the wall before he would meet with him? Did Reagan embolden the communists, legitimize Soviet evil, open himself to their manipulation?
Krauthammer also ignores history in blithely asserting with the glory of hindsight that “Islamic Iran is dangerously apocalyptic. Soviet Russia was not.” This is a delicious fallacy, considering that it is precisely Mr. Krauthammer’s ideological predecessors who harangued and, when possible, destroyed anyone who dared question the capability and intention of monolithic communism to destroy us all. Apocalyptic the Soviets may not have been, but totalitarian and bent on global domination they were, according to Mr. Krauthammer and his ilk.
Yes, Ronald Reagan, like Barack Obama, understood that to talk is not to concede, but is instead to undermine those who oppose us, for in every case–including the Soviets the right painted as giants–our opponents have been fundamentally weaker than we are.
Again, our choices are fairly narrow when it comes to foreign policy: we can either fight wars, meet with our enemies, or delay doing one of the other two.

Neocon Intellectual??? Huh? Is it possible?

Exactly what has ANY neoconservative been RIGHT about?

Why are these people not treated like what they are: the modern equivalent of KKK members, brownshirts or Trotskyites? Why isn’t their message dismissed as what it IS: the rantings of a cabal of extremists?

WHY DO THESE PEOPLE STILL HAVE A VOICE ON THE PUBLIC STAGE?

It is funny that the American people basically lost their constitution rights with the Patriot Act especially number 1 but these columnist can write whatever they like. America has taken the path or ruining people’s lives. Hugh Beamont would must be rolling in his grave.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

hellooo- they still have voices because, whether you agree with what they say or not, they still have a right to say it…its someone’s own fault if they’re too dumb to discern if what they say is true or not

Matt– You’re fundamentally wrong about the Soviet Union; any time we (US Presidents democrat and Repub alike) met with them, there were always preconditions, such as the SALT talks, Nuclear Test treaties, and the like…We didnt just go over and say, “hey, lets talk”, and to do so would have been foolish

Coach– Obama DID state he would meet without preconditions…I think Obama is half-right, you have to meet with countries you dont like sooner or later, but never without preconditions, to do so conveys an image of weakness and appeasement…one needs to talk, but you always have to bring something to the table

Perhaps a better description would have been, “alleged neocon intellectual…”

Merk: Assuming Obama would jet on over and have tea with the leaders of Syria is also a bit extreme, isn’t it?

Ofcourse preconditions would have to be met. But, the key word here is NEGOTIATING. Repubes use it as a talking point, when in fact, it’s never been put forward like that from the Obama camp. He MAY have said talk without preconditions, but never negotiate. Yet, the extremeists constantly charge him with wanting to negotiate with terrorists. This kind of tactic only works with the uneducated.

We tell kids to talk/work things out. But adults shouldn’t????

Jed Clampett

wow, the gliebe calling other’s dumb for not being discerning enough to not pick out the lies from all the BS we are sold in order to $ell us all their other ‘products’.
Hypocrite much??

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Jed- shove it where the sun dont shine dude, when the world wants quasi-spiritual, mumbo-jumbo pap as a solution, then your services will be warranted…until then, lay off the drugs and cycle back into reality

Coach– you echoed my point, and well said. Sooner or later you’re going to HAVE to meet with some terrorist groups, particularly Hamas, as they are the ruling authority in Gaza, and Hizbollah in Lebanon…those “terrorist groups” are the government in those areas, or in the majority of said areas, so you’re going to have to talk eventually

Anybody catch NeoMcLame’s speech today? 30 minutes on nukes. The U.S. has to do this and that, and stop these guys and those guys, blah, blah, blah…….

Has it ever occurred to these blathering neocons/republicans that the only country ever to use a nuclear weapon against another country on purpose is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?

But, we must stop others?

Nice ideology Repukes: Avoid the real issues by perpetrating the fear of a contrived issue.

Jed Clampett

When people have removed themselves so much from spirit as you yourself have done, that it is easy to shove a piece of sh*t in your mouth and call him president that you willfully swallow it and even after the taste has hit your tastebuds, the rotting smell has made your eyes tear and the effects of it is to eventually make you puke your brains out, you still defend that turd as a wise man with the intelligence to secure more petroleum for you wasting.
Hey genious, why is it that in over a century, no one has had the sense to find some way of getting more than about 15% of the available energy in gasoline. perhaps they aren’t listening to the right mumbo jumbo? Well, perhaps they should listen to something other than the BS you choose to swallow that we have an energy crisis that can only be solved by theft of resouces through war or reduction of world population through war
What’s your frequency kenneth?

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Coach– in all fairness, they were dropped well over 60 years ago, and before the true knowledge of nuclear weapons were known…at the time, all that was known was that they created a big bang, not lethal radiation, also, its really hard to argue that nukes should be spread around to whomever wants them

whats scarier is that we’re now setting up the Saudi’s to have a nuclear program…US foreign policy has to change in the region to one of aloofness…its dumb policy to berate Iran but arm Saudi Arabia on the down low…

Jed– c’mon dude, if you’re going to start something at least make sense…now you’re just grabbing at straws…I’ve NEVER said anything that you could construe as being for Bush

as for why no one has gotten any more than 15% energy out of gas? Hmm, maybe because the technology to do so has only become viable within the last 30-odd years? Maybe because it wasnt such a priority to do so until the last 20 years or so? Here’s the secret: if it was economically viable, it would have been done long ago

also, the causes of war much more varied and deeper than “evil oilmen grabbing for resources”…which begs me to ask you the question, whats YOUR frequency, jed?

Jed Clampett

hey gliebe, gasoline fumes explode but the liquid doesn’t… why is that… If I’m like you and swallow the turds offered up by ‘modern science’ I would say, oh, no big deal and go on with it. If I’m like Tom Goad I go, hey, there’s more explosiveness in the fumes than the liquid, let’s burn the fumes. He broke with common stupidity and got his 450 ford to run at 100 mpg.
If I’m an oil company executive and realize that my stocks are falling like crazy on the news of this invention, I might be inclined to call my uber rich friends in the automotive industry to help me neutralize this guy. And you know what, since they didn’t get punished for teapot dome or anything else they’ve done, they know they can repress the technology with impunity and keep their massive profits, they have the money to do anything they want… The necesity was there when Tesla invented his boundry layer disk turbine in the late 1800s, because he saw the pollution and waste and invented something to correct it. Since JP Morgan was running a campaign to discredit Tesla and all his disruptive inventions that threatened his investments, all types of media where employed on discrediting the man who GAVE us AC current generation and distribution to the extent that he’s seldom mentioned in engineering text books beyond his obiously glaring contribution. Odd, isn’t it?

Just because you choose to accept any Turd tossed at you and swallow it with gusto like the proverbial trained seal, doesn’t mean we must follow suit and do as you do. You gave up your link to spirit and now have nothing to guide you, so you try to mislead everyone else. You have lost you ability to feel one with spirit, so you redicule others who do, to hide your shame. Eventually you will discover how necessary it is to recognize the higher power, whether you choose to follow it with some religion or philosophy is your own choice, but at least recognize it and make your individual relationship with it. There are those who sit in church 3 times a week and go through all the rituals and never really feel spirit and it’s benefits, but at least they believe and somehow follow the teachings because they recognize it is a blueprint for prosperity. To you, it’s mumbo jumbo, that is the reason people like you are intent on destroying the planet out of pure self interest and inability to recognize their connection to the greater whole.

Wars are always about resources and the desire for men in positions of power to access those resources at a reduced or free of cost. Whether that resource be oil, salt, food or people, the PR may be different for each, but at it’s core, the real cause is always the same.

I think you should know my frequency already pal. My core is 8hz, I can bounce from 0 to infinity in a phemptosecond and my enemy is bathing you in a frequency of 666hz. wanna know more?

Merk: “if it was economically viable, it would have been done long ago”

Absolutely false. ‘Long ago’, GM produced the EV1, which was completely economicaly viable. It was in response to the Zero Emissions Law going in to effect. What happened? The automakers and big oil sued the Air Resources Board and got the law overturned.

That’s the point: Big Oil HAS had a stranglehold on our nation, whether we know it or not. You know, as well as I do, that we could’ve moved away from oil a long time ago.

OLEOLEOLEOLEOLEOLEOLEOLEOLEOLE LEOLE

Merk-

Jed and Coach have it all figured out, it would seem. Word on the street is they have developed a perpetual-motion-discomfort-ma chine that runs on their own pure bullchismo.

You just wait…before you know it, Coach will come screeching around the corner with a grim look of determination set on his face, while Jed cackles maniacally from the sidecar about Tesla, Schauberger, Trotsky and the Spiders from Mars.

Merkwurdigliebe,

As usual you totally miss the point.

Again, WHY DO NEOCONSERVATIVES HAVE A VOICE ON THE PUBLIC STAGE?

Why are they quoted in publications (like rolling stone) with mainstream readership?

Why are they treated as “serious” analysts and thinkers by major newspapers, t.v. stations and radio stations with mainstream audiences?

Why are their extremist views LITERALLY FED TO THE MAINSTREAM PUBLIC WITH LITTLE TO NO CRITIQUE WHATSOEVER?

Again, why are their views not treated with the same disdain the views of a KKK member or a fascist are? I don’t recall any KKK members getting their own opinion columns in the NYTimes. WHY DOES WILLIAM KRISTOL HAVE ONE?

anyone work here anymore?

This one’s for you Merkgliebe:

51% of Californians approve of the same-sex marraige ruling. So much for the ‘activist judge’ argument, huh?

Jed Clampett

wow, did anyone catch any of the snippets from scott mclelands book. I hear the word indictment in the air. Oh, isn’t summer great. ‘cept for gas prices of course.

Really, Scotty wrote a book? Telling all about the Bush administration? Gee, if he’d just only mentioned his absolute hate for Hillary somewhere in the pages, I bet Rolling Stone would publish a short article about it, do ya think? m

Jed Clampett

The part I like best is when he told of GW’s ability to self-deceive. To believe his own BS for political expediency… this may be just what the dems need to actually bring the administration to trial after the election. If the guy can effectively lie to himself and is mired in a culture of deception, what makes you think he was being hones when he gave the oath that he so quickly reneged on.

Jed Clampett

I used to think that when I reached that lofty goal; to produce alot more energy from a system than I put into it, the way nature does. I would do like Tesla did and offer it to the world. Then I realized he had the ear and help of very rich friends and he still had extreme forces leveraged agains him to such an extent that he had to give up the claim to his patent to keep us from getting tied to DC current distribution, Edison might still be electrocuting animals to prove a point. Edison was known for a few inventions he copied and perfected and for distributing electricity. Edison understood the benefits of AC power transmission, yet he fought it tooth and nail until he could no longer refute the obvious, merely to keep the steady, known, source of profits. Tesla illuminated the worlds fair, in many cases without wires. He was doing robotics and wireless comunications at the turn of the century. Perhaps you don’t understand the significance of these achievements or the fact that they have been eventually, slowly implemented, bit by bit rather than at the speed he developed and perfected his inventions. To me it means alot. Particularly since with my engineering background I understand the importance of transmitting electricity w/o wires. or of generating what you need on site. personally, I wish he had’nt been seduced and taken out of commission by the wealthy of the time. But you can’t do anything without convincing them to let you through, and they won’t let anyone through with something as disruptive as a home power generation unit or a small air turbine that generates electricity for a mere pennies a kilowatt. Not unless they themselves own the patents, they keep control.
If you design such a system, keep it to yourself. Use it to power 3/4 of your electric needs and keep it quiet between you and a few friends. Because if you let them know you have something like this, they will make you and your invention disapear and erase you from the public record. There’ll be nothing left of you but a faint story for idiots to ridicule as if the loss of such achievements is also their victory. This is why it must be obviously plain that an outside influence is forcing us to work against our own best interests and that of the planet. I refuse to think that sane, healthy human beings are as selfish and stupid as you in regards to community and environment. And what is so odd about that? our ancestors have tried to tell us for thousands of years, they even gave us the tools to weaken our enemy. Several wise men have been sent to teach the right way, yet we keep mising it… hmmmm, what’s left? Tesla created his transmitter as a communications device, but he alluded more than once to it’s capabilities as a weapon to protect the nation… perhaps it was meant to protect us from a much more powerful enemy, too bad we have been prevented from developing the things we need to protect ourselves and promoted the things that make us and our planet weak.
You might choose to ignore the evidence and ridicule those that are looking for solutions because of youi investments in the industry, but we will continue looking for a way to save our world, because even though there are people in it such as yourself, we still recognize the good things about it and would like to preserve it. You’re welcome to leave anytime you wish… just make sure it’s permanent please. We don’t wanna have to deal with your negative kharma.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Jed– Tesla, great inventor and scientist, and sufferer of undue revision at the hands of his enemies, was also ahead of his time…his ideas, aside from AC current and the Tesla Coil, did not become economically viable until about mid-century, at which time those who had usurped his legacy were already intrenched

as for war, you want the root cause, here it is: human nature. we are brutish, nasty little apes who never cease in our delight to render pain and suffering unto one another…if there is any such “spirit” it is the “spirit” of man to do evil to one another…i no more swallow turds than you disavow yourself from concrete reality…I live on this planet as you do (presumably), and I want it to survive as much as you do…however, I base my decisions in rational pragmatism instead of some sort of mystic voodoo, which may, or may not, exist

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Coach- You’re partially right…but GM killed the EV1 because, to them, it was the economically smart thing to do, after all, the green push at the time was nowhere near what it was now, and they knew that the general public would continue to take in what they were producing, with a little help from their lobbyist friends…that however, was then, and as we move forward into the new century, Detroit is going to have to change whether they like it or not

that said, the reality we cant simply “get off oil,” no matter what pollyanna numbers you throw up…its going to take total mobilization for an economic shakeup that large…its either total mobilization to a different course, or we stay on present course, which, I think we can agree, is not working…real change demands drastic action, not “cheap and easy.” We’ve being doing it cheap and easy since the Carter administration, and it’s gotten us nowhere. So hopefully you can understand my distrust at your suggestions of a cheap and easy solution to oil

hellooo- the reader is supposed to provide their own critique, so its one’s own fault if you’re too dumb to discern if what they say is fact or not (is this that hard to understand?)…also, they wouldnt have a column if they didnt bring in readers…you or I may not like Kristol, but there are many people who do…and the NY Times is a majority leftist rag, so Kristol is in the minority

just because you disagree with someone does not make them wrong…neoconservatives have just as much to say on the national stage and on national policy as leftists, libertarians, paleo-conservatives, constructivists, orientalists, feminists, Gramscianists, Neo-Liberals and Realists, realists, populists…public debate is as wide as it is deep…its YOUR OPNINION that their views are inferior, or on level with the KKK, and that doesnt mean that they dont have first amendment rights…you may disagree to the core what they say, but they still have the right to say it…if you dont like it, blame the Constitution

One of the more illuminating things in McClellan’s book was this passage:

“If anything, the national press corps was probably too deferential to the White House and to the administration in regard to the most important decision facing the nation during my years in Washington, the choice over whether to go to war in Iraq.
The collapse of the administration’s rationales for war, which became apparent months after our invasion, should never have come as such a surprise. . . . the “liberal media” didn’t live up to its reputation. If it had, the country would have been better served.”

Well there you have it folks. Bush’s PRESS SECRETARY is literally saying the “liberal” people questioning the Bush admin weren’t doing so harshly enough because they were too “deferential to” his right wing boss.

Similarly illuminating is McClellan’s putting the phrase “liberal media” in sarcastic quotes and providing evidence the media is actually CONSERVATIVE: “the “liberal media” didn’t live up to its reputation”

Let’s see, the “liberal media” enabling (if you look back at the T.V. interviews a better word would be “cheerleading”) a right wing war for oil and the enrichment of well connected war profiteers. No one in their right mind would call the media “liberal” in this country and ESPECIALLY after a right wing press secretary SAYS they’re not liberal.

And since the media is conservative I’d wager the McClellan story will go away light years faster than the “Jeremiah Wright” non-story will. It will probably receive the same amount of attention as McCain’s letting corporate lobbyists write his economic policy proposals, his breaking campaign finance laws and his hiring lobbyists representing the murderous and oppressive ruling junta in Myanmar.

Coach wrote:

“51% of Californians approve of the same-sex marraige ruling. So much for the ‘activist judge’ argument, huh?”

That 51% of Californians approve of the same sex marriage ruling bodes well for the defeat in November of the amendment to the California constitution outlawing same sex marriage.

But don’t flatter this guy (Merkwurdigliebe). He doesn’t deserve it. The truth is that in the gay marriage case the Supreme Court was merely doing its job in striking down laws inconsistent with the constitution. Judges doing their jobs is not “judicial activism,” it is simply judges doing their jobs.

Merkwurdigliebe wrote:
“the causes of war much more varied and deeper than “evil oilmen grabbing for resources”

And what pray tell are those causes? Please elaborate so you sound more like the “libertarian” you claim to be and less like the Bush apologist you reveal yourself to be.

Forgot to add the obvious point:

That the media is so conservative is a pretty concise explanation of why extremists such as the neoconservatives are taken so seriously in “mainstream” publications no?

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Hellooo– you jack@ss, the media inst liberal or conservative so much that its complacent and follows the buck in terms of stories…and you’re basing your info from ONE press secretary…who also may or may not be biased…yet this somehow definitively makes the media Conservative? by what logic? Again, the media follows stories that are in form to thier interests (i.e. what will gain them readers/viewers, and keep avertisers happy)…if you want REAL news, get it straight from the unfiltered AP or Reuters newswires

as for causes for war, i’ll have to bullet to keep it short, but listen up boy:

–control over oil
–counteraction of growing Russian and Chinese agents in the gulf
–providing a restating of US global hegemony following 9/11
–attempting to restructure the area into a region that would be sympathetic to our interests in the future
–create a viable, US controlled “third party” between Saudi Arabia and Iran (i.e., divide and conquer) to prevent any form of Pan-Arab nationalism, be it secular or religious
–creating a vast new open arena for US arms sales

and the causes can run much, much deeper, depending from which political construct you’re working from…realists, marxists, liberals, and constructivists all have different reasons for why we went/go to war…so suck on that for a while

Jed Clampett

that may be your nature, but not human nature. If that was rruly the case then humanity would never had gotten past the beating each other over the head with sticks stage. There would be no necessity or desire, will, to evolve.
All I have to do is look at kids to realize how wrong you are. Kids are born with good intentions and a steady moral compass. It is the things the world does to us that taints and changes that initial state.

You eat up the turds with gusto pal, and then regurgitate them at will as if you gathered the info yourself and made the realization, accessed the knowledge, on your own.
I tend to think you have no capacity for real knowledge, you merely parrot that which others have fed you. Thinking that the media has a liberal bias even though it is owned by huge conglomerates evinces that perception.
Tesla’s greatest ideas were implemented after he died because they did not want to help him and fund him unless they could steal from him like Marconi tried to do. Were we to implement his simplest idea, that which he suggested for the navy’s ships, to use a diesel engine to generate electricity economically and efficiently and use the electricity to power an electric motor to move the vehicle we would eliminate the need for foreign oil altogether. simple, economical, easy to implement. he even made a more efficient engine.
It was not implemented because to the oil companies more consumption means more profit, more waste means more consumption… but the government used his ideas in battleships.

If you think that was the ‘cheap and easy’ way then you are nuttier than I imagined and ‘hello’ has exposed.
Then again, you probably imagine this war for oil is ‘cheap and easy’ as long as youre making more money off your oil interests. Don’t you think it would be much easier and cheaper to send electricity to your home wirelessly rather than having the expense and wasted resources of transformers, transmission lines, transmission towers, sub stations etc.? wouldn’t it have been even cheaper back then?
Money and profits(power) are all that matter. As the president who politicized the office and all entities associated with government, merely to stay in power and have unfettered access to the treasury by him and his cronies has proven, that kind of logic helps no one. it is destructive at it’s core.
Do you really think the Repubes in congress didn’t realize what was going on in iraq? that no one knew how much money was being wasted, merely tossed around to fund the insurgency?

Just because you don’t realize that the lord of deception has become thoroughly entrenched and active on this world doesn’t refute the evidence I see. Just the rapid deterioration of humanity in the last 3 centuries should make you realize. You would understand just how quickly earth has been assaulted if you had the perpective of several lifetimes with which to compare, if you had the memory of life in america before the conquest you would long for such a time again. I doubt you could place yourself in the position of another human, much less humanity, not likely a creature such as you can use imagination like that. I’m sure you won’t understand.. isn’t for you anyway.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Jed– you’re fundamentally wrong, Man has freewill, which allows for the ability to change and or evolve, but man’s basic, underlying nature is one of evil and destruction, and has been since we were ape creatures bludgeoning one another…technology and means continue to evolve, but the nature of man is still the same…all you need to do is count the wars and destruction from well before the last 3 centuries to illustrate the point

As I said, the media is neither liberal or conservative, but it’s own entity that follows its own interests, even if at times they seem liberal or conservatives…the claim that the media is liberal or conservative is a talking point cop-out not based in fact nor reality, and is a bastion for a hobgobin of little minds
and the “cheap and easy” I was referring to was the numerous “fixes” to the problem that have been offered over the years as a solution for oil…your unabashed boner for the Tesla affect is novel, and though it works, it only does so over short distances, meaning that to implement it would mean creating a whole new infrastructure, which would take time and money

as for America being “paradise” before the “conquest” (i assume you mean Europeans, but with your batsh*t insanity, who knows), get real– native americans were just as violent as any other people (scalping anyone? the Aztec removal of hearts? The violent warrior nature of the Apache and Lakota Sioux that was known well before whites came?), after all they were human…they may have had a greater understanding of the land and how to respect it, after all they were depended on it, but they were just as violent towards one another as any other group of humans occupying the same space

Merk: “Tesla affect is novel, and though it works, it only does so over short distances, meaning that to implement it would mean creating a whole new infrastructure, which would take time and money.”

There’s that scare tactic again. At what point do people of the same mind realize that the infrastructure argument, while meaningful on a shallow level, is just fraudulent rhetoric. The infrastructure for anything we want to do regarding the auto industry and fueling is already in place in the form of gas stations. Sure, it will cost money to ‘remodel’ the gas stations, but what’s money? We spend over a billion a week in Iraq bro. And, if you do the math on it, it’d cost about two weeks of what we give Halliburton, Blackwater, Exxonmobil, KBR, etc…….

So, let’s see: The infrastructure is already in place, just needs some remodeling.

Money’s not an issue, as we’re spending a few billion a week to KEEP OIL FLOWING.

So, let’s get to the real point: It’s my belief that some people just won’t embrace the idea of getting AWAY from oil because it’s a liberal idea. (Notice how I said away, and not OFF oil Merk?)

But, enough about that. This ‘war’ that we’re fighting in Iraq, which really isn’t a war anymore, was purely for capitalistic reasons. Those reasons: Control the drilling of oil in Iraq, control the reconstruction of Iraq, and control the government of Iraq.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Coach– you may be right, but you’re counting on the fact that their wont be lawsuits, job losses (which politicians on both sides will bitch about), and all the stuff that will come with it…the actual switch wont be too difficult, its all the cr@p one has to deal with to get there

also, the war in Iraq happened for many, many more reasons than just oil for capitalistic reasons, if that were the case we would have knocked off the Saudis or Kuati’s first, who have more oil, or Venezuela, which is in our hemisphere…any US involvment in the middle east is very complex and runs deep…the reasons I listed earlier are just part of it

Merk, here’s a question that might make you take a side:

If it weren’t for the oil reserves in Iraq, whre do you think ‘democratizing Iraq’ would’ve been on our list of priorities? In other words, was the only real ‘threat’ in Iraq was their unwillingness to conform to Big Oil?

You can try to justify the invasion in any number of ways. But, practically, and fundamentally speaking, it was the oil that put them on the priority list in the first place.

Jed Clampett

“but man’s basic, underlying nature is one of evil and destruction, and has been since we were ape creatures bludgeoning one another” wow, you swallowed that turd whole without even blinking huh? how is it that someone that doesn’t believe in the concept of religion can believe in the concept of evil? I bet you are one of those who were born bad, huh? I realize it contradicts what I said previously, but lately, it’s become obvious that some are being born with darkness in their soul.
That is really bad news, because it says the well of souls is being overfilled with bad spirits.

If, as you say, man’s only goals are destruction and evil, then we would have become extinct long ago or had our populations limited as the tazmanian devil. It is very difficult if not impossible to achieve and produce when you are mired in war and having to protect yourself or attack the enemy.

When you think about it, even TAZ was probably a good creature at one time, then got sick by eating some contaminated meat and then spread that infection through contact and birth until all members of that tribe were converted. The same is happening to us. But, apparently you bought into the PR they are trying to feed us in order to justify the destruction of such an odious species… perhaps they deserve enslavement. Sad to see that so many have bought into this philosophy and espouse it in all their dealings. Big business and the inner city, not much different these days, just a different kind of criminal gang.

“and though it works, it only does so over short distances, meaning that to implement it would mean creating a whole new infrastructure,” another statement spoken in ignorance as if it was corroborated fact. Tesla undestood the ‘effect’ could be transmitted to anywhere on the planet with minimal losses, even less waste than the current communications scheme. One tower was being built in NY and the other was to be built in France, hadly a short distance. And what infrastructure do you need? a receiving unit at the home, and the sending towers. But you keep eating those turds and enjoying your fat belly.

to some extent you are right on the natives issue. We started being afflicted before the europeans arrived. the leadership structure was striken first… particularly among the maya… what we used to give up as offerings requested by spirit, became wanton killing, it’s intent was to force spirits hand to their will… and to remove political enemies and those among the population who were talented. It was also used as punishment for criminals, but the spaniards misinterpreted it on purpose in order to justify the destruction of such an odious race. We escaped the disease for much longer than most of humanity… unlike the muslims that go and kiss the stone fallen from the sky, we avoided the ones we found on our lands, our healers understood the negative power they brought… some were tempted and touched them and had their spirit turned. The disease struck all of humanity, it spread quickly with the europeans and their desires for power, influence and control of the population in order to get more of the same. While the justifications for war may be varied as the plantlife on earth, ultimately, it is about power and control… humans themselves don’t know why they are doing it or why they are compelled to follow bad leadership, but apparently it happens.
There is evidence of this around chaco canyon… the inhabitants where forced to live in caves on steep cliffs to protect themselves from the ones who had been infected. Those had become canibalistic, violent, destructive… in other words afflicted. When they first arrived the effects were obvious and noticeable on the ones that were impared. Today, the infection is more subtle, but no less pervasive. Either way, we have a huge problem on our hands that get’s exsacerbated by the fact that we have become more intent on fighting each other than doing what we did for millenia before their arrival… cooperate with each other for all to prosper.

BTW – if I thought like you, that all humanity is inherently evil, I would not waste my time trying to reach those who stil have understanding and would have left this rock already.
YOU have already made your choice, that’s what free will is for. The test is whether you will choose those things of earth and it’s positive energy, or that of the invaders and their negative energy. Where you end up when they finally split will depend on how you exercised that free will and whether or not you listened to the voice of instinct.

Coach– dont misunderstand my posts as justifying the invasion…when a detective is collecting clues about a murder, he’s not justifying the murder, he’s merely searching for answers as to why it happened, same thing here

I will agree that oil is a big factor, but so too is location, but the biggest reason was a restatement of US hegemony in the region after 9/11, to thwart any idea of weakness in the eyes of Russia and China, China espescially, who has been increasing its toeholds in the gulf througout the last decade…also, the US is not interested in democracy in the region, only ployarchy, in which elections are “held” to keep the peasants happy, but the governments remain our puppets, so “democritization” is a loaded term

Jed– humans are not born evil, but you cannot deny the human penchant for evil acts– Homo Sapiens wiping out Homo Neandertalus, Roman crucifixtions, Inquistion gridirons, Tamerlane’s beheading’s, Mengele’s experimentations (and the Nazi’s in general) it all seems to point to some sort of predilection towards violence…free will is a double sided coin, either used for good or abused for darker reasons

i guess i dont swallow as many voodoo turds as you do, one susuposes

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Jed Clampett

“Homo Sapiens wiping out Homo Neandertalus” and you know this how? you were there? did you see HS killing HN? perhaps they were assimilated, or lost their food supply, or became the victims of some specific disease. But if you wish to believe that one annihilated the other so that you can justify man’s inhumanity by a small, violent, selfish minority then go ahead.
I would respond to the rest of your tripe, but what’s the point, you don’t really read the comments anyway. You look at it saying words in your head, but your inner voice takes it and distorts it beyond recognition. Read again and you might perceive what the cause of man’s inhumanity to man is. Then again, you’ve been blinded for a reason and it’s obvious you are happy in that condition.

It’s not that humans have a predilection for violence, I can assure you, those kids having to deal with bombs and bullets in Iraq would much rather be stateside building a bridge or tossing a baseball. It’s that apparently we are mostly followers and will follow some other idiots lead without actually analysing the situation. case in point, all the generals that assisted in the iraq invasion as opposed to the ones who retired instead of being involved in a criminal act.

to you it may be voodoo… to me, being an engineer/scientist it was little more than a curiosity. When I started exploring it, I saw exactly how it was used to control the populace after a while. It becomes corrupted by those who have been infected and are capable of reaching positions of power. Then they start changing the structure of the institution and the power structure. Then they bring in absurd ritual and other concepts to dilute the original teaching. Then they start exerting their power over their constituency and drive them to violence or war. This is how religions are profaned and taken over, however, the philosophy behind it is no less valid. As to the apparent ‘magic’ qualities ascribed by some religions… who knows what we are capable of and what potential we can deploy when not being subjected to constant irritation of our most sensitive organs.

Glurbe: “but the biggest reason was a restatement of US hegemony in the region after 9/11, to thwart any idea of weakness in the eyes of Russia and China”….

Is that really the biggest reason? So, (allegedly), a few Saudis hijack four of our planes, fly three of them into buildings, one of which is the most surveilled building in the world, and to prove we’re not weak, we attack Iraq??

I guess, after the Virginia Tech massacre, we should’ve attacked Korea?

Those brutish statements about us showing our power in a ‘Post-9/11 world’ (RNC trademark) hide the real facts and you know it. If OPEC didn’t have such a stranglehold on the globe, then the region wouldn’t mean any more than any other region. So, your ‘region’ argument is also about oil.

To take it further in the region, regarding any nuclear threat: Iraq had none! Iran has none! Everybody else does. So, where’s the threat?

I, we, understand you like to sound like you’re a middle of the road guy, even going so far as justifying this invasion in Iraq, but the fact that you jumped all over the ‘activist judges’ who overturned a conservative law banning same-sex marriage, shows some true color. If you were REALLY a middle of the road guy, you’d realize that oppressing gays is no different than the past oppression of blacks, indians, mexicans, women, interracial marriage, etc.

While you may be right that change in the petroleum industry will take a long time, it will only take a long time because of certain resistant forces, mainly oil-entrenched repubicans. Certain mandates would get us away from oil, and further from middle eastern chaos.

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Coach– I never said oil wasnt a factor, or that it wasnt a major reason for why we invaded, but it is not the sole one…there are/were many causes that stretch back several years, but in a sense you’re right: we invaded Iraq because it was the nation in the region that was most susceptible to it, barring Yemen, which is of little strategic value to US hegemonic interest…the no fly zones and sanctions had already made the country ripe for a takeover…so we rolled in, to grab oil, to re-establish an image of hegemonic superiority, and to establish a polyarchy-backed regime to establish the illusion of democracy in the region to further our aims, one of which being arms sales

and I havent even touched upon Edward Said’s Orientalist theories either…the point being, it is naive and shows one to be ill informed to simply blame it on oil, or a nuclear threat (as libs and cons both do)…and its not justifying if you’re simply laying out the facts as to WHY it happened (C’mon, read the post before jumping on the “it was only for oil the whole time” mantra). Please point out where I justifyed the invasion? I have merely stated what led to invasion, and all the elements that led into how it happened

as for the California decision, you twist my words. I constantly stated that the decision was the right one, but it was decided the wrong way. The ruling opened up marriage statutes to too broad an interpretation, a dangerous precedent, and history supports this thinking

The interstate commerce clause was only supposed to be applied to goods moving along roadways, but has been perverted into allowing the Federal government to go into gun shows and regulate the sale of guns using said laws, which presumably would have lost juristiction once the guns were off the Federal highway system

eminent domain is another precedent, that was supposed to be restricted just for road construction and other things necessary for the public good…and it has been twisted into meaning that a developer can now seize you land and build condos

so my disagreement with the law was strictly one of legal matters, not pertaining to the people contained therein…if gays want to get married, fine, best of luck to them, but there’s no reason to accept a bad law when one doesnt have to. That said, I’ll play wait and see for CA…I hope it works out, but in my gut I dont like how the law has been so drastically and broadly reinterpreted and changed, when it didnt have to be…I dont like the law giving the government large swaths of power for whatever the reason, as abuse always follows

and I never claimed to be middle of the road…I lean libertarian, bleed pragmatism, and have no love for dogmas of liberalism or conservatism, so I dont know where that puts me, but I never claimed to be milquetoast on anything…but I’m no war apologist or whatever other bogeyman you want to paint me as

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Jed– How do I know? How do you know that Tesla is the answer (conveniently) to all of the worlds problems? How do you know that the “well of souls” is corrupted, and corrupted by what? How do you know that the americas were a land of milk and honey and lovey-dovey utopia before the conquest? How do you know half of the mystic mumbo-jumbo detritus that you weigh down half your posts with?

I took an educated guess…Humans and Neanderthals, by evidence of the fossil record and archaeology, lived in the same areas, competed for the same resources, and so on an so forth…it would seem logical that they bumped up against one another, and conflicted in some way, regardless…again, freewill aside, you’ve yet show anything that would prove to contradict man’s basic dark nature…I never said we can’t overcome it, but its much to easy to give into it, to rely on some for of perverted Darwinism/natural selection and prey on the weak…perhaps neither of us has the right answer, as we’re both arguing from hypotheticals

you call me blunted and a turd swallower, and I call you out of touch with reality and batsh*t insane…perhaps we’ll just have to agree to disagree, and perhaps our worldviews will come into contact sometime, eh?

Merkwurdigliebe wrote:
“Any US involvment in the middle east is very complex and runs deep…the reasons I listed earlier are just part of it”

AGAIN WHAT WERE THE REASONS WE INVADED IRAQ? Why would you not list these additional reasons you’re referring to in your little bullet point list? WHAT IS THE POINT OF A BULLET POINT LIST IF YOU’RE NOT GOING TO PRESENT ALL THE F#CKING BULLET POINTS?

(Merkwurdigliebe)

Hellooo– back to your old tripe, eh? And you’ve jacked nothing, you’ve merely ranted and raved for post after post, while claiming victory (?)

As for the reasons, are you even reading the posts? I believe I bulleted the ones easy to digest below…others get increasingly complex, but for further analysis of the war, read anything by Said, Chomsky, Mearsheimer, Waltz, or Samuel Huntington, as well as some Gramscianist base/power structure theory as for some more perspective…to put it all here would move my posts into war and peace lengths, and I’m not going to do all the hard work for you, you ignorant piece of sh*t.

As for the media, your using snippets of OPINION to back up your position, not fact. So 70% people disagree with the Iraq war, so what? Does that mean they merely think we should be killing more Iraqis? Does that mean that they’ve been against it from the start? Unless you explain how the poll was taken, and what questions were asked, I’ll give nil credibility to it…only a moron accepts a poll without knowing how it was administered, but you wouldnt do that, now would you?

The media doesnt focus fully on the Iraq War, as its not as exciting as it once was, media wise…less soldiers and more Iraqis are dying, so the US media covers it less…and neocons have positions on many different other policies that are in the news, from abortion to opposition to gay rights, to whatever the current issue is, and Its YOUR OPINION that they are discredited…plenty of neocons believe the war is going badly too, but they still watch cable news. Same with liberals, libertarians, and on down the line…also, the traditional media is hemorraghing viewers, but its laughable to think that you believe the NY Times and MSNBC to be conservative, when the evidence points to them being leftist, with Fox being conservative, and ABC, NBC, CBS middle of the road

You base your assumptiong that the media is conservative based on ONE journalist, on CNN…if the media is TOTALLY DOMINATED BY CONSERVATIVE COPORATE INTERESTS, WHY WOULD THEY LET THAT JOURNALIST SPEAK IN THE FIRST PLACE????? If they do control the media with an iron fist, wouldnt they want to keep it under wraps to keep the peons happy? Oh no, have I sh*tted over your entire point? I think so…again, the mainstream media is in its dying stages, so wether its liberal or conservative, I dont care…media is moving towards the internet

And plenty of businesses are headed by liberals/democratic voters…Warren Buffet, Soros, Bill Gates anyone? So your marxist hatred for freemarket economics comes out into the open, but I guess only SOME corporations are evil…the system, when properly regulated works well for both neocons and liberals

you’ve made baseless accusation after baseless accusation, have shown no real capacity to understand how the media works, much less why. If all you’re going to do is vomit up long gone cold liberal pap, please go educate yourself before you do so, and its laughable that you think you’ve “bested” me in an argument where all you’ve thrown out is opinion and hearsay

I guess RS has given up on this blog.
Did Tim get fired, or is he off “researching” his next big article?

Seems like (since the 24th) it’s just the same two guys ranting.

Yawn.

Jed, as us liberals have heard before, some of our statements and debates have been accused of being ‘whiny tirades’, at least it’s passion. Merk, while you may be educated in all the ‘intricasies’ of this ‘war’ in Iraq, it’s almost impossible to get to you to state your opinion. While liberals, at times, sound like whiny biatches, at least it’s a passion. Without passion, women would still be unallowed to vote, blacks would still be used as farm implements, there would be no emissions controls, no minimum wage, etc.

Passion is what drives change. And, while it may sound intelligent to parrot ‘talking points’ and cherry-picked facts, it sounds more like Charlie Brown’s teacher. Passionless. And, while it may sound complex to parrot the many different factors regarding foreign policy and the middle east in particular, it’s just blather. ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING can be broken down fundamentally and practically. ‘Complexity’ is a cop-out.

Taking a stand is exactly what America is all about. And, again, while some liberals come off as too whiny, at least they’re taking a stand against tyranny, oppression, segregation, imperialism, communism, fascism, racism, bigotry, forced religion, and even capitalism.

Stay passionate Jed. Passion is America’s only hope.

Help me! My little vienna sausage is stuck in the Charles in charge. Goober!

Okay Now!!I’ve Heard Enough!!
You Kids Better Start Playing Nice or It’s No TV and No Internet For A Month!!
Do I Make Myself Clear!!

Jed Clampett

If you are still jumping back here… thanks coach. finally someone verbalizes it. careful though, they just might start painting you a religious zealot.

Passion is what is needed in any endeavour to make it work right. That passion that says… regardless of the personal gain I may get from a particular endeavor, I will avoid taking it in order to help the project reach it’s desired conclusion. Hopefuly, this is an endeavour that hopes to help the majority rather than an individual or a particular group of ‘leaders of industry’. To me, that’s the greatest patriotism, a desire to use your wealth to help those who struggle to barely make it achieve some sort of financial security and dignity of life. What greater patriotism than to recognize all earthlings as part of one big family, a family that has some members reacting to a serious illness that has not yet been diagnosed therefore is not being treated.
Time is coming for healing though, we merely need to wake up those with the skills necessary to help us all.