MTV should bring back celebrity death match and have hillary and barack duking it out…

(DD)

Truth,

Actually, there IS ’some’ accountability for individuals. If you’re a crack dealer, and black. If you drink and drive, and aren’t a politician, or a cop. If you’re a wage-earner and fail to make it to work. If you don’t pay off your credit card balance. If you exceed your minutes.

Commenters Note: It’s my belief that the Proxy Errors are really the inability for the server to manage more than one ‘hit’ on a thread at a time. Sad.

That there was no accountability for individual actions is how we got into the sub prime mortgage disaster in the first place: Bush’s government never enforced regulations on who lenders loan to. That lack of accountability allowed those lenders to loan to people with bad credit who were unable to repay the loans.

Those bad mortgages were then packaged and sold to investors as high rated investments: another lack of accountability. Who rated those investments and why are are they still free?

You’re right that a lack of accountability will screw us all. You’re wrong that lacking accountability only applies to poor people. Start thinking.

That there was no accountability for individual actions is how we got into the sub prime mortgage disaster in the first place: Bush’s government never enforced regulations on who lenders loan to. That lack of accountability allowed those lenders to loan to people with bad credit who were unable to repay the loans.

Those bad mortgages were then packaged and sold to investors as high rated investments: another lack of accountability. Who rated those investments and why are are they still free?

You’re right that a lack of accountability will screw us all. You’re wrong that lacking accountability only applies to poor people. Start thinking.

How desparate can this woman get?

Thanks for the help, Jed. That made a world of difference.

(Jed Clampett)

Close all your browsers. Go to settings>control panel>Internet options. Click on Delete cookies. This will remove all your cookie and the source of your troubles. The problems are caused by the way some advo-site cookies interact badly with RS cookies. Now that you’ve removed the cookies, it will temporarily solve your problem. Temporarily because cookies have a way of coming back.
ONce you post again, if you get a proxy error, click on refresh page or right click on the IE window and select refresh. This will limit it to typically one LPE

(Jed Clampett)

Then I’m affraid by your assessment we are fu*ked. Actually, not so much, but they are taking us down a path that is good for no one, and they fail to realize that even their billions won’t help them in the end. I tend to believe the Prez when he said that for a strong nation we need to own property. Today we do not own our property, we borrow it from the government and the currency is taxes, if you fail to pay your property taxes for a couple of years or if they get higher than you can afford, you lose that property to the government. So it’s never really yours… but I digress. If they annulled all those loans with insane interest rates and obscene penalties for early pay, particularly those forced on people with good credit, those people will be able to either s#ll their homes or keep them, bringing stability to all involved.
A ‘culture of ownership’ is what america needs, but it must be promoted by those without an ulterior motive… i.e. taking advantage of the unsophisticated.
There is something inherently wrong in helping out those that are already rich by bailing them out when they underfund pensions or mismanage an airline into the ground or outright lie to their employees and investors by misrepresenting their finances ala Enron.
Isn’t it contrary to the tenets of capitalism? I seriously doubt those huge corporations with their enormous reserves of cash will fail, and secondly, even if they do, unless our markets are so poorly managed and overpriced that they will collapse at the smallest sign of adversity, it is highly unlikely the whole market will collapse as you profess.
You are right in saying that if there is no accountability our system will collapse. It is now evident that money can b*y justice and accountability is almost nonexistent or a mere facade.
When a bank that does business around the world engages in money laundering the proceeds of a despotic regime holding it’s people hostage and then the government of that banks home country acknoledges the criminal act but then provides a way out by means of a miniscule fine and no admision of wrongdoing, then that government becomes complicit in the crime and a beneficiary of that crime by means of the fine. Other despots see what the Riggs bank did to help Pinochet rob his countrymen and that the fine for this was a mere fraction of the profits gained, then they have no incentive to change their ways because they have an active supporter in the nation that is suppossed to be about justice, fairness and prosperity.
I wonder if MUGABE is also helped by american institutions… is this how we ‘SPREAD DEMOCRACY’?

The predatory lenders knew exactly what they were doing, knowing full well that the government would bail them out just like the whole S&L debacle before that. Screwing people because they didn’t read the fine print doesn’t make it right. Its like going to Walmart and being “accidentally” overcharged for your purchases. Just because you didn’t read your receipt and call them out on it doesn’t mean they didn’t just steal your money. We shouldn’t have to check our receipts. The money and patronage these corporate terrorists receive from us legitimately should be more than enough. })

F’n proxy errors!

Sorry for the delay Jed, I’ve been having a hell of a hard time getting the comments to come up when I open this link. To answer your question, I don’t think that the government should bail out Morgan Stanley and the rest of them and I think your assessment is correct. Those financial institutions were certainly in a position where they had a better understanding of the inner workings than the people that took out the loans. They too got caught up in the “free money” craze and refused to dig deeper or ask questions like what if these mortgages are based on over-inflated prices? The government will bail out those institutions instead of helping the people re-negotiate their rate because if those institutions go under, the entire market will collapse. If the little guy loses his home, the fallout isn’t nearly as large. Sad, but true. I believe that should have to lie in the bed they make, whether it be on an individual level or on a corporate level. If people aren’t held accountable for their actions, this country is f@%ked!
(Dennis, I feel your pain in regards to the Proxy Errors)

(DD)

Rules?? Rules?? What, pray tell, are rules but contrivances designed to favor one particular group over another. America is all about changing the rules to fit the situation.

The ‘rules’ are, the Party makes the rules. If the NBA wants to change the 3-point line, do they ask you? Nope. The Democratic Party is no different than the NBA. Hail, this COUNTRY is no different than the NBA.

Did you want Bush for Prez? Nope, but you got him. Did you want the U.S. to invade Iraq? Nope, but you got it.

Look, read, listen and think. This country was founded on rules. And the first thing the ‘founding fathers’ did after the constitution was ratified was make new rules. Everytime the Supreme Court ‘rules,’ the rules change.

This is America. We, meaning the powers that be, change the rules whenever we decide we don’t like them.

Write-in:

Barack Obama/Ron Paul

Every time a political reporter uses “amazingly” to describe something that is a well known fact, God kills a kitten and fires someone who should know better.

For Clinton it’s the proverbial “I’m taking my ball and going home!” But more like, “I’m taking my party and going to hell!” If she can’t win, everyone else looses. I honestly don’t know how ANYONE in the DNC thought that Hillary Clinton would be good for the party or America. Her desperation becomes more apparent with each passing day as she cranks up the personal attacks. One can only hope that Obama continues to win by large numbers and totally hacks into Clinton’s “firewall” in TX and OH. Otherwise, I fear we’re headed towards a debacle that will make Florida 2000 look tame. })

This is no different than Obama and his fainting spells and Oprah’s secret “scientology tech” over white women.

The ALL play dirty. They’re politicians, for chrissakes.

DD,

Maybe Clinton should have read the DNC rules barring Florida and Michigan delegates from being counted before she started arguing for them to be awarded to her.

For her to argue two contradictory things at the same time: for the superdelegates to follow the rules and for Florida and Michigan to break them, only displays how unfit she is to be president.

The truth is this: Obama will win a majority of delegates before the convention. Superdelegates might want to take note of this because if they endorse Hillary they will be throwing away the election and very possibly ending the Democratic party altogether. So much for paternalism.

(DD)
Tim,

It’s not FUG the rules. Those ARE the rules. If you’re going to be so infatuated with the primaries, you might want to read up on them a little more. Try here for beginners:
en.wikipedia. org/w iki/
United_States_presidenti al_primary

(Jed Clampett)

Sorry, didn’t mean to ‘attack’, just seeing what the motivation behind the statement was.

You have hit the nail on the head.
American democracy is a fallacy, doublespeak if you will, and the people of the world have no trouble in recognizing it.
Once we realize this and demand that the promises of the declaration and constitution are actually implemented we will be raising our standing in the world and will be able to help others after helping ourselves.
Until such a time, imposing our ‘ideals’ on others, forcing capitalism on others as the only viable economic system, supporting despots for political convenience will be seen by the rest of the world for what it is. An attempt by greedy creatures to control the resources of the world and thereby it’s wealth. All others be damned.

(Jed Clampett)

It is a carry over from corporate structure, the superdelegates are like the CEOs that own a disproportionate number of shares and therefore have a disproportionate influence on the decisions of the company.

SITM - your silence speaks volumes. You balk at the suggestion that people should be helped to renegotiate their mortgages, but have no problems with bailing out morgan stanley, goldman sacks, etc. etc.?
Do they deserve help more than the citizenry? Should they have not been infinately more aware of the risks of those financial instruments, yet chose to invest in them anyway? How are financial institutions that made mistakes to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars more deserving than the people who work 30% of their lives to feed the governmental machine?

(DD)
Jed,

Simple enough and I agree with you. But that’s not how it’s done. The party folks get together and develop the most byzantine of procedures.

This is NOT a democracy. It’s not even a true republic. Never has been. The members of the electoral college don’t HAVE to vote for who the voters select. And there’s no mention of parties or primaries in the U.S. Constitution. These things are contrived institutions manufactured and maintained by the States and the parties.

This is nothing new. It’s just that there hasn’t been a close primary in over 30 years. So, this is the only thing most people understand. Or ‘think’ they understand.

The parties are all powerful and pick who they want. This country was founded by the elites. According to the U.S. Constitution, the only people who could vote were white men with property. ‘They’ may have given up some on the votes, but they haven’t given up on the power of choice.

And just because I’m recounting it doesn’t mean I endorse it. It is what it is. Please don’t shoot the messenger.

1LPE,2LPE,3LPE,4LPE,sorry, you can only post one,5LPE

This stuff makes me soooooooooooo excited. Tim, who are you voting for?

“All’s fair in love, war, and politics…”
Mosieur Le Docteur Ralph
1759

I’m a die-hard democrat, and I’d never vote for McCain. Unless Clinton pulled a Bush Maneuver and stole a nomination they did not earn. If she’s up in the pledged delegates and the popular vote at the time of the convention, I’ll vote for her, sure. If not, I vote for McCain, as the Democratic Party simply deserves to be sent back to the opposition for such an affront to the very ideal enshrined in their name.

The entire super-delegate system is a s@!t show that promotes backroom deals, earmarks, pork spending, etc. I guess the DNC feels the primary voters aren’t competent enough to nominate the candidate so they have to have step in and subvert the democratic process to make sure the party leaders have the final say as to who gets the nod (unless of course you are Joe Lieberman in which case you don’t get a say, because you don’t fall directly in line with the party). Was this not the same party that ballyhooed so hard when Gore beat Bush in the popular vote, yet lost the election?

(Jed Clampett)

so, does the fact that ‘it’s the way the game is played’ and that it’s ‘politics as usual’ an endorcement of the tactic? Should we allow the practice to continue and to be acceptable merely because it would help our selected candidate win or should we decry the practice and prevent it so that EVERYONE has an equal chance based on the will of the populace? If your delegates were pledged and that candidate dropped out of the race, then those delegates should also be out of the count. Seems simple to me.

(DD)

I weary at the naievity expressed herein. This is the way ‘the game is played.’ It has ALWAYS been played this way. The assumption, tnx to Tim, is that poor Mr. Obama is going to have his delegates ’stolen’ from him.

I can assure you, the ’senior Obama aide’ either is lying or isn’t THAT senior. They’re going to be going after Clinton’s and Edwards’ and everyone else’s delegates. That’s what they do. THEY’RE POLITICIANS!!

Some of you should have attended your Civics class instead of being out back smoking.

before sc, i would have voted hillary over mccain. not now. it’s not a matter of obama or nothing, as folks like krugman like to say. i’m not a spoiled baby who only wants his candidate. i am, however, tired of politicians who lie, steal, and cheat. no way does hillary get my vote now. she steals this nomination, i’m voting obama on the independent ticket.

Obama over anyone else.
McCain over Clinton, easily. Obama is our only hope to get war mongers out of the White House! People who’s most important issue used to be pro-life issues now think that the death of thousands and thousands of innocent middle eastern civilians is clearly a much more important national issue. Hillary is just more of the same corporate greed-driven puppetry that we’ve seen for 8 years. We need someone with conviction and a good heart. Not a stone heart like Medusa.

(Jed Clampett)

It’s more of an analogy than a comparison.

The thing is this, the indians, not knowing any better thought they were dealing with children of earth and expected the signators to abide by their word and stated deal. Big mistake because they failed to recognize that these men were led by other entities and because they could not read what was written on those documents, they had to rely on what they were told by those offering up the doc.

The borrowers that were duped into absurd loans should have known better and if they didn’t, should have availed themselves of an advocate. The lack of any advocates to help the borrower notwithstanding. But ultimately, it is government that should have prevented these abusive loans and circumspect investment vehicles from being implemented. Absent government control, I can write a contract and in small print and in legalese put in a clause that would give up your property, give me use of your wife and servitude of your children. You may have signed it, but I would have a hard time enforcing such a deal regardless of whether you missed a payment or not because it is immoral. And therein is the flaw in those loans that were served up to those people. They weren’t allowed to understand the document because it was written in legalese and the terms were made so convoluted that they didn’t realize how much over prime their interests rates would climb, not to mention that those people trusted the lenders to clearly explain the nuances of the loans. I assure you those that crafted those documents knew what they were doing, theft by document.

In a perfect society where people are educated in such matters or there are those who can work as advocates for those that don’t know the in’s and out’s of the game these kinds of loans wouldn’t see the light of day. In such a society, these loans would not have made any money except from those house flippers that got caught midstride, unfortunately we are in THIS society, where people are so ignorant that they would reelect a tyrant out of fear and the image of an enemy on television, so to expect them to understand economics is a pipe dream at best. A calculated contingency to be exploited on it’s face. A government sanctioned transfer of wealth at worst.

There are plenty of quasi-Democrats (formerly Republicans because of religious reasons…back when pro-life issues meant more to us than outright killing innocent civilians in foreign countries) who would vote McCain in a HRC v. JMC final vote. We need Obama to win the nomination, or all of these potential converts will flop back to the GOP! Too many former Republicans WILL NOT vote for Hillary. (I’m absolutely one of them.)

I see your point, Jed, but I think comparing the theft of land from the native americans to subprime mortgage crisis, is a bit of a stretch. I admit that clearly there were practices that were at the very least unethical, but placing all the blame on lenders, banks, Presidents, etc. takes away any sort of personal responsibility from the individual. That is a dangerous trend to continue as eventually we’ll reach the point (if we haven’t already) where people won’t take responsibility for anything.

I’ve been telling my friends for the last week that if Mrs. Clinton stoops to such desparate tactics and get the nomination I will not only vote for Mr. McCain but I will volunteer my time to his campaign.

I agree with brentbrent– if Clinton wins legitimately, I can vote for her.

But if she continues the way she’s going, I’ll vote for McCain or not at all.

It’s a shame that the most advanced “democratic” nation in the world can’t even get a damn election right.

We got screwed in 2000, ‘04, and now it’s possible in ‘08…by a Democrat?

I’ll back Hillary if she wins fair and square, but if she wins the nomination that way I swear I WON’T vote at all.

Probably wouldn’t vote again. For what? It’s not like my vote counts.

I can’t vite for McCain after he’s backtracked, flip flopped, and chickened out of taking a stand on tax reform, immigration, torture, etc in the last few weeks.

All I can do is hope the American people wake up and get on the Obama bandwagon so wins the needed delegates to go on.

If i think Obama gets screwed out of the nomination ill look to the third parties, i cant vote For McCain Hes a hawk and i agree with coach He changed on key issues to get nominated how can we be sure Hed do what He says if elected?

(Jed Clampett)

I love the way bussinespeople always bring up that little trick.
“You should have know what you were signing!!”.
That’s how the whites stole the indian’s homeland. The indians were like children to the ways of theft by document. The indians considered themselves guests of God on those lands. The whites couldn’t understand this concept but they knew hot to steal, divying up the land amongst themselves and weakening the natives hand by force of arms and decimation of their main food source they legaly took the natives patrimony and removed the protectors of the land from having a say in their own country.
Many a crook has made their fortune with help of the ‘law’, that is why they b*y legislators and members of the executive. It’s an investment, not an interest in fair politics. It’s alot easier to steal when you have the backing of a government to do it.

PS- I really doubt that anyone of any significance will be jailed over this. Not greenspan for having allowed the financial instruments that made the theft possible. Not the president who promoted it. Not the banking system that allowed the faulty loans to go ahead. Na, they’ll use some scapegoats in lending firms, but no solution of real substance will come of it. It would mean hurting the crooks with money, and we’ve seen that in america enough money will let you get away with murder. All you have to do is dissemble the right way.

Coach - To answer your question from the Lieberman post, yes McCain was beaten and tortured during his five and a half year stay at the Hanoi Hilton. Less than a year in, he was given the opportunity to leave, but refused unless everyone that was captured before him was released as well. Given the extreme torture and pain he endured there (far worse than what that mongrel Khaleid Sheik Mohammad went through), damn right he is an honorable man.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the fact that Obama stands for change, I think we need it, but he has yet to say just what that “change” will be.

Jed - I agree with you that some of the practices implemented by subprime lenders should be deemed illegal if they are not already and there should be people headed to jail for this debacle. But I don’t think that all the responsibility can be put on the lenders. Common sense should dictate that if you are making $30,000/yr. there is no way you can afford a $400,000 home. Not to mention if you are going to sign a contract, you had better have an understanding of what you are agreeing to (including the fine print). These people were told what they wanted to hear, and because of that, they didn’t ask questions.

Midman: Not at all a defense of Hillary’s Clittons, but can you prove that McCain is ‘honorable and principled? He was against tax cuts, then for them. He was for choice, now against. For amnesty, now against. Is that principled? Or, is everyone being ‘duped’ by the fact that he was a P.O.W.? Does that make one honorable?

There is one and only one choice if you want anything resembling change, and that’s Obama. Hillary will play politics, McCain will ride the Bush bus, and Huckabee…….well, poor ole Mike is still finding his way.

Proxy errors: 1

Obama

Clinton is repulsive! She is starting to make Karl Rove look honorable!

I love obama, but if hilary legitimately won the nomination I would back her too. But like this? I can guarantee I would never, ever vote for her.

And people thought Bush worked to circumvent the democratic process. I would take John McCain over Hillary Clinton any day. At the very least, McCain is honorable, and principled. Hillary is about as real and genuine as Pam Anderson’s tits!

(Jed Clampett)

Why do you think they want to get up there so badly? Are they so interested in protecting the american people, in doing the people’s business, that they are willing to forego democracy and established rules in order to achieve that position?
No, the truth is that the american public is so productive and send so much money to the Government by virtue of working 30% or more of their lives to cover their tax burden, that the treasury is seen by the ‘insiders’ as a treasure trove of free cash for the taking without any accountability. We are being robbed by poorly run businesses that have purchased our politicians and made them work for corporate benefit rather than the people.
Why is the economic stimulus plan so favorable to the people who created the problem, goldman sachs, morgan stanley and other investment firms and banks? Why did they bribe the american public with a $600 check to individuals while giving multimillion dollar bailouts to crooks? Wouldn’t it make more sense to renegotiate individual mortgages, invalidate all those ’subprime’ loans that people were forced into by crooks, and help the people who were taken by those more savvy than they in the ways of a ‘culture of ownership’(as the president termed his theft on the american middle class)?
In the long run it would be much cheaper than giving billions away to corporations who’se bussines it is to analyze those investment vehicles and avoid the bad ones, those firms should have known better and will do it again if not punished for their misdeed, if they didn’t understand the terms and conditions of those loans, how would the regular joe on the street?
Why is it ok to charge someone who has less than stellar credit 3 times as much interest? wouldn’t that theft in forms of higher interest rates guarantee a default?

I’d back McCain in a heartbeat over Clinton. That manipulative (expletive) has no soul.