seems obvious the organization has now the impetus to operate outside the boundries of the law even on home soil.
Plausible deniability is their best protection, sort of the way Kennedy was murdered and King was murdered, etc. etc. Boy these sure are dark times when the beacon of hope for the world has extinguished the light of justice and transparency in government.

Boy, it sure would work a lot better for them if they were able to get anything useful out of these horrible interrogation ceremonies. How many people have these interrogations have been tried in court and found guilty? We’ll never know because of the military tribunals. But, I tell you this: If they WERE to find them guilty of the horrible things they’re accused of, WE SURE AS HELL WOULD BE TOLD ABOUT IT.

We have become an absolute joke. All of our ‘allies’ are breaking from us because they can see what we’ve become and don’t want to be there for the ‘retalliation’. But, hey, the bright side is the fact that we’ve suppressed stem cell research, energy conversion, infrastructure maintenance, and health care reform. AND, we’ve FINALLY cut domestic counterterrorism funding in HALF. Seems terrorism must NOT be the threat it’s trumpeted, or somebody wants those gates open again!

What a joke. An absolute joke.

Odds that this(just like everything else that the US government has done) will not change anything?

I’m seriously thinking we might as well just revolt. I’ll give it until 2008 elections, and see where things go, but if Hillary, Rudy or any of the other evil politicians get elected I’ll be grabbing more than just a pitch fork and torch. Things are so broken that trying to fix it from within seems futile. Sigh. Perhaps its time to tear it all down and start from scratch.

i think destroying is accurate. These are bad times with an administation worse than Nixon, at least His trip to China helped end the ignorant Communisum of Mao and made China better Bushs only positive is tax cuts.

Tim, the USofA is already being judged harshly. No having to wait for “history” to catch up.

I agree. This country is already being judged harshly.

The torture issue is but one of many, which apathetic or ignorant Americans do not care about, and will never care about.

The large overlying issue here is the disrespect for international “law”. What I mean by that is a sort of unspoken common courtesy rule, which the US has breached far too many times in recent history. (Iraq, South America, Iran, Vietnam, Korea…). We think ourselves too great to care what the rest of the world thinks. And that is the fatal flaw which led to the downfall of the Athenian Empire, as well as many others.

We have become a lazy and uncaring populace, with very few actively engaged people who are willing to commit to change. What are the underlying causes? I believe it to be a combination of the Media, TV,internet, disenfranchisement, and too much time spent on top.

TV, internet, and media specifically have led to the decrease in interest in learning. Many people spend too much time turning off their minds and letting others do the thinking for them. These things are OK in moderation. But majority of Americans do not know the meaning of the word. Everything here is in excess. It has been for a while.

Cognitive thought and creativity are our species greatest gifts. Yet we are scorning both in favor of a stupor, acting like living-dead people. Alive in body, dead in intellectually. And it’s damn sad.

Does anybody agree? Is there anybody who understands what I’m saying? Or am I writing to myself a lament for mankind?

if sleep deprivation is torture, then the criminalization of marijuana is a form of torture…

Griz,

I’m not sure I agree with EVERYTHING you say, but you’re conclusion is dead on, certainly the part about creativity and cognitive thought. And I share your angst.

And I think that you can see in Coach and Jed, kindred spirits. Their assessments are on the money as well.

I’m not sure I’m ready for ‘real change’ yet but there is a basis for the notion. It would appear that NOTHING will ‘move’ the PTB to impeach. And that, I fear, is the only course available that will both cleanse our collective souls and send a message to the rest of the world that reason and humanity still prevail in this country.

Reason and humanity WILL prevail, at least it always has in the past. Let it begin now.

Things will never change as long as the current political system exists. It’s designed to keep the rich in power, allow them to get richer and keep the poor and dimishing middle class at the bottom of the ladder. The fact that Bush has not been impeached yet just goes to show how broken the system is. The people who would be responsible for his impeachment have too much to lose (ie. money from their pocket). It would take something like Bush getting caught sticking a cigar in Senator Larry Craig’s ass to get him booted from office. Even then, the “Democratic controlled” Congress would screw that one up.

How do we get the masses to care is a huge problem when it comes to this. Most people who care only post things on walls or forums, while actually doing little in the real world. There are a few exceptions, but I think the internet has distracting many people, (including me)from doing anything in the real world, where the decisions are made. No president or government is going to care what people post on blogs and other things. We need to demonstrate we care, not by creating Facebook groups protesting something in hopes of change.

That said, the internet can and should be used as a means of communication and organization, to aid in getting ideas out.

sorry, was forced to convert s to $ and o to 0 to get past the sensorship program.

what political system was ever designed for anything but keeping the rich in power ? ? ?

As long as we have Dancing with the Stars, do we really need good gubment ? ? ?

lik roper is at large in the city of sunnyvale…

What I don’t understand is how anyone can argue over what constitutes torture without expressedly being subjected to the practice in question.

If we are going to have lawyers decide what torture is then we should torture lawyers in order to discern the best definition of torture.

We should do it publicly as well. In this case that would mean “torturing” the entire administration of George W. Bush on T.V. It should be public t.v. by the way, not pay-per-view. The public owns the airwaves.