Tim,

Well, it would appear I’ve been taken to task. (Or is it the woodshed?) And with some justification. At least as portrayed here.

Your position is admirable, commendable and your assertion that it is a slippery slope they’re playing on is correct. That said, I don’t believe you stated anything that contradicted my position or that the practice is necessarily unusual or that, even, it is bad.

So, let’s open the flood gates and see what others have to say. You probably won’t be surprised to learn that this is not the last I’ll have to say about the subject, but I’d like to see others weigh in on the whole issue of ethics in politics.

Do the ends justify the means?

I’m not trying to kiss nobodies ass, so,,,,

“Do the ends justify the means?”

In American politics, yes. Since there are only two parties and two possible ends, whichever one is better is all that is important… the means be damned.

Case in point: all the republicans say they’ll bomb Iran if they’re elected. I don’t care if Hillary-as long as she doesn’t bomb Iran- or even Kucinich illegally installs themselves in the White House with NO vote, I’d prefer that to a new war in Iran. (in fact I’d consider it the first round of Democratic payback).

Da Truth
That’s the lie!!!
They want you to believe that the parties are it..
Well,, guess what??
There ain’t no damn diff between a Republican and a Democrat..
Both want to tie your ass up and make you believe whatever the hell they want you to beleive..

Remember this,, before the Democrats,, before the Republicans,, there were TRUE AMERICANS..
True Americans who would not put that much trust into a bunch of people who say they are looking out for ” YOUR ” best intrest…
Bend over it’s re-election time!!

A “True American” don’t tell you how big something is,,
A True Americans just un-zipps his pant’s and shows you!!

DWM

Just which ‘TRUE AMERICANS’ might you be talking about. Please, name names.

Dirty,, Your still mad because you lost the debate with Tim..
So your going to start picking on me now,,
Is that the play your making??
Well Well Well…

I think he’s talking about me.

DD, did you go and stick your toe in the cesspool to see what would happen?
did you not realize that excrement is the only thing that is sourced in that pool?
Thing is, without a viable sanitation department doing due diligence to remove filth, we are left to simply ignore imbecilic posts or risk getting dragged into a quagmire. They work best within a quagmire because that is their source. You believe enough in metaphisical topics to understand why just about everything they say has unproductive, negative connotations, don’t you?
This is it brother, the final battle between black and white approaches. Good or evil, make your choice, you are either with us or your against us. Make sure you know whose tactics you are using though, they will define your allegiance.

Jed
I still beleive there is some good left in him..
I really do!!
It’s just all that hate knawing at him,, tearing the very fibers of his soul..
Somebody needs to pray for him, lay hands on him,, try and drive that devil out of him..

funny, those little beasts always imbue others with their qualities. sort of makes them blind to their own foibles, which is probably a self defense mechanism, as they are so full of discrepancies that self loathing would be the only response.
I am somewhat perplexed that this creature is capable of some higher functions, but I guess they are becoming more and more able to pass off as human.

Do the ends justify the means?

This argument is being turned away from what matters. Hillary is a liar, simple as that. So are most the other politicians(and I say politician in the worst way imaginable) and they are the ones getting the most air time, lobbyist endorsements, and popularity in those oh so unbiased land line polling calls. Telling me that its ok for them to lie infuriates me. Maybe I’m not completely jaded yet. I will not ever vote for any one of these deceitful two faced snakes. I will not ever pick the lesser of two evils, and I will not believe that to vote for anyone else is to throw my vote away. Every vote has meaning, and I’ll use it to vote for someone who hasn’t sold their soul to business and other interests.

JED
I agree totally

Jed,

How does it feel to have DWM agree with you? Must be an odd sensation.

Part I,

I suppose it’s a little premature to be disappointed at the lack of response to this thread. I really thought it would generate more posts. I recognize that not everyone is retired like myself; some of you actually have lives. Still, given that this subject is such a lightning rod, I am surprised. Maybe I should interject some conspiracy theory, that seems to work every time.

Let us begin with the premise that merely understanding or recognizing something does NOT necessarily translate to condoning that something. The two are NOT mutually inclusive. I ‘recognize’ and ‘understand’ drug, alcohol and nicotine abuse, and dare I say eating abuse, but I for SURE don’t condone them. In a different set of circumstances I could easily be arguing on Tim’s side, such is the nature of debate. For now, for the sake of argument, I shall not. I do so because I think the issue is valid and goes to core ‘problems’ in this country.

One such problem would be hypocrisy. Another would be apathy. Another would be declining values. I’m not sure I’m going to address each and every one of those and I may even add some as I ‘wing it.’ But I for sure am going to hit on them a little.

I’m going to begin my argument with the position that life is a stage and politics imitates life. I’m sure Ole, Shapeshifter, Jed, Coach and a few others (not you DWM) can articulate this premise better than I. But I daresay few would disagree. Precious little we do in life is spontaneous any more. Certainly once we clear the hurdle of puberty, spontaneity rapidly disappears. (Perhaps to reappear, momentarily, with Alzheimer’s. I’ll get back to you on that.) I can unequivocally state (who’s to argue?) that spontaneity does not exist outside the individual. Our institutions, be they school, government, church, entertainment, sports, politics and/or the workplace are all examples of staged events. I wish there was a term/label I could use as reference, but Ole would doubtless resent any such attempt.

My Point? Life is a staged event. Call it society, call it what you will, but everything that happens around us is staged. Since we were urchins, reciting the Lord’s Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance, our lives have been staged.

I’m going to pause here in case there’s someone out there with a pulse who wants to weigh in. “I Shall Return,” where I will continue where hypocrisy, apathy, et al are revealed for the shackled ghosts that they are. I’m sure all can see where I’m headed.

DD
Kind of like The Matrix Movie??

Part II,

If it pleases the court, I would like to submit Exhibit A: The responses to this thread.

It seems abundantly clear that no one much cares about this whole business. * It’s called apathy and although I listed it after hypocrisy in Part I, it really should be listed first, all other responses stem from it.

Actually, Your Honor, the defense chooses to rest at this time since the prosecution has merely alluded to an offense without actually citing one. Until such time as any evidence is offered in support of this ‘allusion’, the defense sees no reason to subject the good readers of RS with parts II and III, most of whom would ignore any way.

* Which is why in my original post I expressed surprise at RS’ reaction.

Reminds me of a little bit of the slight of hand W used to get us in a war. Basically every politician is scum with the possible exception of Dr. Paul.

DD
In case it didn’t dawn on you yet.
I’m playing with you.
The fact is, I’m sick of politics as usual.
I feel the very same way that you do in regards to what’s passing for humans running for office.
Some of the people, on both sides I may add, who are running for the highest office of the land, I’m not sure they could pass the mental test required to run a day care center.
And speaking of Day Care Centers,, look what congress has become!!
Hillary is for licenses for illegal’s, she’s not sure, now she’s against them.
Harry Reid is for sending in more troops, oops, he’s against the surge, now he says we’ve lost…
Bush is backing Rumsfield, now he’s not..
Democrats win both houses of congress in 2006, we’ll be out by Christmas of 07.
Democrats want a full pull out of Iraq..
Republicans want small government..

If you are truly a conservative, Guess what??
Your not going to be able to count George W. Bush and his daddy as one of ya, because folks, Daddy was the one who told Reagan his Voodoo economics would not work!!
He came up with the name Voodoo Economics.
See we’ve got proof, you can be a liberal and a Republican at the same time, Notice the results of that in 2006 election??

America does not like a LEFT WING GESTAPOS.
America does not like a RIGHT WING IDIOT.

What does America Like??

America Like’s baby bear oat meal
It’s not too hot, like Papa Bears..
It’s not too cold, Like MaMa Bears..
It’s just right!!
So go tell it on the mountain.
Give us someone who is like Baby Bear’s Oat Meal..
Give us someone who’s just right!!

fuc*ing sensor program sucks. hard to make a comment when everythign goes in the bit bucket.

DWM,

Excellent post. I would have to add that most folks do nothing more than ‘play’ hereabouts. There’s hardly anything tangible to come of our efforts, so play it is and play it must be. Bang away, I love a good argument/discussion. I have a feeling you and I couldn’t be farther apart politically and yet probably closer than either would care to admit philosophically.

The ‘truth’ is what you say and what many others have repeated: the choices are slim and none IF, and it’s a mighty big IF, you desire someone as a ‘leader’ who possesses the qualities we’ve been taught, over and over and over, to admire. The ‘system,’ in it’s present configuration, does not allow that.

We can wax pithy on the system, it’s products and manifestations and, if possible, alternatives. But see paragraph one above for the reality; nothing will come of our efforts. Is it a waste of time? Time will tell. As a bleeding-heart, liberal progressive I believe that we will continue to grow and one day, maybe, we can rise above the excrement that Jed referenced.

By the by Jed, patience m’boy. You know the problem and you know the work-arounds. Perhaps we should list out the words MCP finds distasteful to remind folks.

(PS DWM, the Matrix reference was pretty good. Certainly it was NOT part of my perception and I don’t know that I necessarily agree, but I can FOR SURE see the worth of the analogy.)

DD

Absolute and utter distaste of a political system is always the birth maid of change.
Just as Taxation without Representation lead to the American Revolution, and too much Federal Power over the states lead to the Civil War.
The lack of trust in our current system will lead to another yet another revolution here in our wonderful country.
I no more expect Hillary Clinton to win next years election that I would expect George Carlin to win, Why?? Because they are members of the same crowd.

They are the generation who took a Idea, they took a position, that War is Wrong, LOVE is GOOD, ONE PILL MAKES YOU LARGER, and ONE PILL MAKES YOU SMALL, and a few other IDEAS , Mixed them up, Got pregnant, caught a std, got drafted, or otherwise got a job,,,,,,
And then what Happened??
They get up now and preach to us about following a dream, when in fact they gave up on their dream years ago..
Sure some of it was foolish dreams,, but some of it was not, SOME OF IT COULD HAVE CHANGED THE WORLD.
Not All Hippy Convents were bad!!
Not All Hippies were stoned all the time..
Some of them pointed their fingers right in your face as said, “LOVE WILL CHANGE THE WORLD”
They were right, but the true believers paid a horrible price with the rest of us..
What songs would John Lennon sing today??
How would Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. look on what has become of the movement he started??
What advise would JFK had given us on dealing with the war on terror??

I look at those people on stage last night, and the republicans also, and what I see is folks who were once against the type of government they themselves have created.

Our government only serves the people verbally around election time.

We now get to choose our next president from a group of people who have given up on their dreams.
Notice the approval rating of a congress that is full of people who gave up on their dreams..

DWM -

Bravo!

thank you for bringing intelligent discourse into the discussion.
I wish I knew what words were being rejected in my attempted post so I could contribute, but am frustrated by the obfuscation. Seems ridiculous you would have to write ‘b#y’ to get past the program, but then again so much of todays societal life is absurd that it doesn’t surprise me anymore.

Jed

Write your posts on world perfect, I started doing that to help out with my spelling.
Then copy / paste to the post comment box.
If it does not take it,, then you can go back to your word perfect doc and “tweak” it..
At the very least, you’ve got a copy to look over and try and find out why Tim wont take it.

believe me, I have, still got the text saved. problem is I can’t figure out which particular word is being rejected and I don’t want to post one word or sentence at a time.
Either way, our political system is so screwed up that our politicians have to pander to the people.
To their special interests they have direct communications and make back door promises like CAFE standards and Grandfather clauses, this is very troubling to me. While my vision was that Hill would be the first female potus, I’m not so sure she’s the one for this cycle.
She does have too many connections to the same groups that have led us to the position we are in today. BIG INDUSTRY of all types usurping the will of the people with their money.

Hopeful
Buddha will survive, the people will make it, but the real question is,,,
What has been cleared up to show us the way??
In some ways,, I get it more than most do.

Jed,

If they’re going to stick us with this 20th Century technology, then you should have no problem posting one para at a time, in the interest of clarification.

Right now, I only know of two words: s-h-i-t and b-u-y. If anyone else has some they know of, please share.

lavidjio