shouldn’t it be “whole hog?”

Tim -

What’s the idea behind posting pictures like these, if you’re not going to identify what we’re looking at? Are we just supposed to assume that this is the handiwork of Rudy G?

It almost looks like the pic of the sandflea on ice is supposed to be captioned ‘Tim Dickinson’. I got a little worried for a second.

Blood,

Living under a rock has got you cold hasn’t it? This is a picture of our interrogation policy.

This is the culmination of the Republican Revolution. This is the fantasy of every southern Republican alive: the slow sadistic death of anyone who ain’t colored the same way you are. The slow sadistic death of anyone who isn’t in the same or higher economic bracket as you are. The slow sadistic death of anyone who professes a religion different from yours.

This is the picture of conservatism itself. Good riddance.

If this is what we have become in response to 9/11, then Bin Laden truly has won. If the net effect is that we have lost our constitution, our Republic, our humanity and, indeed, have become a police state then where is the outrage? Why are we not in the streets? Why are we tolerating treasonous republicans and their collaborator, democrat enablers? Did we really think that, once we had given the tools of dictatorship to these people that they wouldn’t use them? I’ll be damned! If there’s one thing to be learned from history it is that we learn nothing from history. I weep for the Republic.

just remember that most of the people being water boarded would happily saw off your head with a dull knife…

that doesnt mean that “torture” should be used at the drop of the hat, or that it should even be normal procedure, but if it prevents Americans from dying, and politely asking someone doesnt work, then i’ll try not to shed too many tears

Merk,

You must not be reading all post/threads or your retention span rivals my own. This is NOT a new subject. Currently it ranks right behind the campaign of NEXT year on Tim’s radar, to the detriment of more worthy subjects, in my humble opinion.

1) You have evidence that these captives are ‘threats?’ Or are you taking the word(s) of a government that has demonstrated NO allegiance to the concepts of truth and/or honesty.

2) There has been one convicted (or charged, I believe) terrorist in the six years we’ve been chasing them. And that was, I believe, for pre-9/11 activity.

3) Do you honestly think if any ‘good’ came out of the practice, it wouldn’t be heralded as evidence of worth?

Lippy,

The reason this country ‘tolerates’ the police state and the tactics of Bushney is because Main Stream America isn’t really impacted. The Kitty Genovese (sic) condition still holds sway in this country; “as long as it’s not happening to ‘me,’” and it’s delightful corollary, “I don’t want to get involved.”

Other factors are at work, to be sure. A considerable segment of this country is not ‘troubled’ by all this. Just as a considerable segment wasn’t ‘troubled’ by slavery, racism and inequality. And it’s not unique to America. I can’t speak for all cultures, but it’s a decidedly European characteristic.

Each of us here are manifesting it, else why aren’t we organizing demonstrations, supporting candidates or running for office?

Merk: I personally like the line: “but if it prevents Americans from dying…”

Boy, I DO love that patriotic rhetoric. What Americans are we talking about here? It’s time to put 9/11 in perspective. It was ONE event that, in hindsight, was probably ‘pushed’ through by Cheney inc. Those ‘hijackers’ had to go through 5 levels of security to pull off what they did. And, yes, it killed 3000 people, and counting. But, all those people were NOT Americans. I would bet some of them were muslims…….

Anyway, I digress. Here’s the perspective I’m talking about:

9/11 and the 3000 deaths caused us to go into ‘global war on terror’ mode. But, in American history, terrorism deaths (pearl harbor, 9/11, USS Cole) haven’t even reached 10,000 yet, but we’ll spend trillions of dollars fighting it. Cancer causes 3000+ a year. How much money are we spending on fighting THAT?

But, again, look at what we’ve turned into. A country that invades, occupies, imprisons, tortures, etc…..

They (the terrorists) want to kill anybody, including Americans. So, what’s our answer? Kill. How is that any different from what THEY want? Why is it okay for America to torture, but not other countries?

It’s time to stand up for our principles.

How did this government get so out of control, and what can we do to stop it…NOW.

Any action plans, folks?

Merkroumbnmaleiuhnmgapapmaniac :

“just remember that most of the people being water boarded would happily saw off your head with a dull knife…”

You DO realize your statement admits that we’re just like them. But, you justified our violence by saying that they’re violent.
Maybe, just maybe, they think that WE started this fight..so they’re fighting back….ever thought about that?

The old adage “you don’t fight fire with fire” never rang more true in this instance. We’re fighting ‘gang violence’ (terrorism) by resorting to torture? And then, because we think we’re so high and mighty, we try to DEFINE torture?????? How pompous can you get? People: IT’S ALL TORTURE!

again, i dont want to condone torture as the everyday norm

i think with most people, you can get the information you want out of them with Sodium Pentathol or other drugs, but there are some cases in which people will not budge unless you use harsher methods…again, if somebody knows some information, and wont give it up, i’ll side with the interrogator so long as they dont cause serious bodily harm…you can be rough with someone without killing them

again it all comes down to whats torture. to me, torture is having your ribs kicked in, and your arms broken (like John McCain), or having bamboo shoved under your fingernails, or simply having them ripped out. Or attaching electrodes to someone’s genitals, and electrocuting them until they explode, a favorite of those in South America. Or beaing beaten half to death with radiator hoses while wathing your wife/children be sodomized in front of you (a favorite of Saddam Hussein)…keeping someone from sleeping or keeping them hot or cold doesnt exactly fit into the same category

Dennis: i believe a year or so ago, the LA Times, not exactly a cheerleader for the administration, said the fewer than 10 percent of the detainees were actually not threats and may/may not have been wrongly accused

Coach: terrorism deaths and cancer deaths are like apples and oranges…and plenty is being done about cancer in the private sphere, but also in public universities…after all, the cancer survivability rate just keeps going up…as for the “levels of security” they had to got through, please, our security then, and now, has been a joke…we’re no more safe now than we were then

As for you Bender, it depends on how you justify “us” starting it, if you want to only go back as far as the cold war, sure…but again, most of these problems go back to the crusades, and remember, this is a clash or cultures…they (i.e. radical muslims, just like radical christians and materialists over here) dont see any possible middle ground…what is you solution bender, trying to talk it out with someone who would much rather kill you?

DeltaWildlyImaginitive: Down boy! Easy big fella. I don’t think anybody’s debating the horrible things that happen in the middle eastern culture. But, those same things happen in OTHER places than the middle east and we don’t do anything about it. Also, and this is the main point: NONE OF THOSE HORRIBLE THINGS YOU MENTIONED HAVE HAPPENED TO AMERICANS IN THE UNITED STATES. We’ve had a few ‘alleged’ bombings by ‘Islamic fundamentalists’, and one ‘alleged’ 9/11. So, to use them as fodder and justification for ’staying the course’ in Iraq, and to justify bombing, is a bit pompous. We invaded a sovereign nation, period. Wouldn’t you be surprised if people WEREN’T pissed off about that? Probably not though…Seems we have quite a few people in this country who think America can/should do whatever it wants……in the name of propoganda.

Merk: Watch out what you ask for. As I recall, the FEW Americans who have been captured caused a massive stir in America. Also, those 13 British sailors captured by Iran almost got Iran bombed. My point is this: If it’s ok for America to torture, then America should understand that Americans will be tortured…….it’s an endless vicious circle. Shouldn’t the country who calls themselves the moral standard be above all that?

tim,
thanks for putting this out there. more of this exposure is necessary, but probably hidden.

‘proliferate liberty ~ not liberated tyranny’…

Aliens: That was one of the finest posts I’ve ever read on this site. Congrats.

Aw shucks!

Wot no Pulitzer?!

Coach – “We’ve had a few ‘alleged’ bombings by ‘Islamic fundamentalists’, and one ‘alleged’ 9/11.” Please tell me you are kidding and are not one of the tinfoil hat wearers like the jackasses from “Loose Change.” If so, drop everything you are doing and watch the History Channel special “9/11 Fact or Fiction” in which experts very concisely debunk all the B.S. conspiracy theories.

Somewhere: Thank you very much, but as I’ve already seen ‘Fact or Fiction’, there’s no need to put myself through that spin again.

As far as being “tinfoil hat wearers like the jackasses from “Loose Change.””, well you’re entitled to your own opinion. Me? I’m going to lean toward the evidence that makes the most sense.

Apparently, you’re NOWHERE near the ‘middle’ as it seems you’re not even remotely willing to consider the evidence of a ‘loose change’.

Undisputable facts about 9/11:

1. A few of those ‘alleged’ terrorists are still alive today.

2. While we were forcefed loops of footage of planes hitting the towers, we were never given a photo of the ‘plane’ hitting the pentagon. Seems we should’ve been able to recieve some footage of that since it’s one of the most highly secure and surveilled buildings in the world.

You take what you want, and I’ll take what I want from the evidence. But, to call a group of doubters ‘tinfoil hat wearers’ is a joke.

Keep on telling yourself you’re somewhere in the middle, if it helps you……

I’m going to stick my neck out here and take a stab at suggesting what the exact problem with torture is, as I see it.

First, let me claim that torture can be justified. I’ll give you an extreme hypothetical example that will prove an edge case, first: Suppose a man has just armed some explosive device remotely that would blow up millions of people in 5 minutes and you caught him in the act(think of some silly dramatic anti terrorist show on fox). You know there is key to disarm the device. He knows this key, but doesn’t want to tell you. Would you try to force him to tell you the key by hurting him?

In that extremely unlikely situation, I hope you all would answer yes. So, the issue is to what degree you would draw the line. The problem must be more nuanced.

I think the problem we have with torture is that we are not acceptably certain that these people have any knowledge that justifies their torture, we are not acceptably certain that they are guilty of any crimes, and we are not reasonably certain that the methods would provide us with accurate information. It’s a big math equation that looks at those things to determine the expected outcome, and in most cases the numbers don’t add up to justify the harm done to the probable benefit that results.

Thats where the true problem is, I think. We are torturing and killing these people without the justification to do so. How many of these people have done nothing wrong? How many know nothing useful? How many would give inaccurate confessions that are of no use? What would be the expected benefits of getting successful confessions? These are the questions that need to be considered before choosing torture, and I don’t think our government has even given those questions a moments thought.

Coach, show me the indisputable proof that a few of the hijackers are still alive and I’ll eat crow. As for the pictures of the Pentagon, the only camera on that section of the building filmed 1 frame per second, which makes it tough to capture a photo of a plane moving at more than 733 feet per second. Also, you seem to ignore the eye witness testimony of people who saw the plane hit the Pentagon. I was willing to consider the claims of Loose Change, but when experts shoot down those claims, the movie becomes nothing more than a conspiracy theorist’s pipe dream.
As for me being “nowhere near the middle,” I can see how you may think that given you’re position is somewhere outside the stratosphere.

We shoudl start using these ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ to compell Cheney to divulge to congress who was present and the minutes of the Energy Policy Task Force that he illegaly held in secret before the war, where they discussing energy policy or invasion/plunder plans.

We should also use them to compell Gonzales to tell us what went on behind closed doors on making the decisions to fire US Attorneys in good standing and then smear their names by saying the reason was performance related.
We should use all these techniques on John Yu and afterwards have him accertain that the practices are not torture and that the geneva convention is quaint.

Hell, while we’re at it, let’s use them on the CEO’s of EXXON to gather information on how they fixed gas prices and colluded to mislead the war on global warming issues.
We could use them on the CEOs of halliburton to disclose their billing structure practices that bilks the american people for the cost of an entire tractor truck when a tire goes flat.

Oh there are so many instances I would like to use these newly approved ‘enhanced interrogation methods’ on those that approved them and felt the moral compulsion to use them on others. Unfortunately, I realize that torture produces false and unreliable information 90% of the time and the guys who really interrogate people for a living, the FBI, says it is an unreliable and unnecessary technique.
But it probably would be fun just as payback for what they have done to damage our nation and to show the rest of the World that America is truly a place of justice and that no one is above the law.

Middle: Thanks for bringing me back to this stratosphere with your ever-so-prophetic rebuttal of my statements.

First: Aside from tracking those terrorists who ARE still alive by myself and taking a picture, getting their ID# and then reporting to you, it’s a matter of who you believe. Personally, at this point in time there’s not one single thing I believe this administration about, so we’ll just leave it at that.

Second: I never said a plane DIDN’T hit the pentagon. All I referenced was the lack of evidence at the crash site via video. Also, if that particular camera you referenced was the only ‘working’ camera, doesn’t that raise a red flag? That complex is surrounded with surveillance and defense. So, to have ONE camera working at that time raises some more questions…..

Third, and somewhat AGAIN: These so-called ‘experts’ you referenced from the history channel…..so THAT cements it? What about the ‘experts’ who are refuting climate change? Experts are a dime a dozen, and if they come from this administration, or anywhere near it, they’re probably very, very biased.

Coach, I can understand where your distrust of the administration comes from, but if you and many others that post here really feel that this administration is as inept as you say, how could they possibly pull off what would be the biggest cover-up in history? Not to mention, with the political climate the way it is, if there was any evidence that 9/11 was a sham, don’t you think the Democrats would have jumped on it and used it to virtually eliminate the Republican Party from US politics? And no, the History Channel special doesn’t cement anything, but taken in collaboration with the great majority of the investigations done regarding 9/11, it seems the claims made in Loose Change are entirely improbable. Maybe this is just another issue you and I will vehemently disagree with one another on.

Rudy may still win, it doesnt look like it but while hes turned off some of the swing vote he or whoever the nominee is will have a chance because Hillary will have a hard time getting enough states to win.

Somewhere: Seems you’ve already conceded that there isn’t ANY evidence supporting that 9/11 was an inside job: “if there was any evidence that 9/11 was a sham…”

ANY evidence?

So, I guess you don’t consider the following, raising questions about 9/11’s authenticity:

Dick Cheney’s ever-so timely war games.

No VIDEO of the Pentagon, which leads people to believe it was NOT an airliner.

The inordinate amount of ‘puts’ on the airline industry in the week prior to 9/11.

Look, you can believe whatever the hell you want, but you don’t hear me telling you that you’re crazy for not believing what I believe. Personally, this administration has lied about everything except the Afghanistan retalliation.

Coach – The fact that something does not exist is not evidence that there is a conspiracy. Just becauase there is no video of a plane hitting the Pentagon, does not mean that a plane did not hit the Pentagon, or that there is some cover-up. One would assume that eyewitness testimony would be enough, but apparently in the case of conspiracy theorists, it is not. As for Dick Cheney and his war games, provide me something other than circumstantial speculation and I’ll consider it. Like I said before, you are talking about what would be the biggest cover-up in history. You cannot have a cover-up of this magnitude without even a modicum of hard, concrete evidence to back it up. Speculation and circumstantial evidence warrants no credence.

Midland: Just come out and say you don’t believe the conspiracy. It’s as simple as that. But, you’re trying to debunk the conspiracy. Saying things like this “drop everything you are doing and watch the History Channel special “9/11 Fact or Fiction” in which experts very concisely debunk all the B.S. conspiracy theories” doesn’t debunk the conspiracy. There’s two sides to everything and you’re picking the government’s side. Me, like I’ve said a million times, I’m not going to believe a single thing this administration says. Period. No grounds for compromise. They already blew it a long time ago by invading a sovereign nation for absolutely no reason, with absolutely no permission to do so.

So, you go ahead and believe your experts, who, by the way, are experts at covering up evidence………….
JFK,RFK ,Lennon,King,Iran/Contra, Iraq, global warming, etc, etc, etc.

Cover-ups HAVE happened in the past and WILL continue to happen. Sometimes, pulling your head out of the sand allows for different perspectives.

Coach -

How do you know UBL et al didn’t own those put options?

or maybe even aliens!! Or the chinese? or maybe even sasquatch?

Coach I thought I was making it clear that I do not believe the conspiracy theories. What I was also saying was that the reason why I do not believe those theories is because the great majority have been debunked by people not associated with the administration that have an expertise in their related fields (structural engineers, architects, chemists, aviation experts, etc). That, in addition to eyewitness testimony given by ordinary citizens (not just government workers) who saw a commercial airliner crash into the Pentagon, proves for me and I would assume most rational people, that the conspiracy theories are nothing short of bollocks. I’m not picking the government’s side on this, I’m taking the side of rational thought. I see nothing wrong with being skeptical or even cynical of the government because yes there have been cover-ups. But to treat every awful event as a government cover-up goes beyond skeptical into the realm of ludicrous.

What they are covering up is not how it happened, but that they knew it would happen and allowed it to.
They ignored the warnings of the Soudi’s, the French, the Germans and the Israelis.
Even though they had arrested an arab ‘pilot’ learning to fly comercial airplanes but didn’t wan’t to learn to take off or land and they knew of a disrupted plot in Indonesia a few years earlier to use planes as missiles they weren’t able to put two and two together?
Puuuleeeeaaase!!!

Much like the US ignored the warnings of australians that a major fleet was headed for pearl harbour, the government allowed the strike to happen while keeping most aircraft carriers safe in order to involve itself more fully so as to have open access to the treasury.
When you look at the president’s reaction to the news that the buildings had been hit, you realize that it is the look of a person who knows what is going on but needs to seem unperturbed. I don’t think they realized the magnitude of the target or the results on the buildings, but the work of their puppet UBL achieved exactly what they wanted.
A war to help their friends at halliburton, exxon/mobil and blackwater as well as an excuse to ‘protect’ iraq’s oil.
Look how quickly after the attack they worked to RAPE the constitution with the patriot act.
How quickly they decided to ignore the laws established by FISA.
How fast they gave up any innate repulsion to torture for the semblance of expediency.

Perhaps they didn’t stage the whole thing as an absolute deception including the attacks on the pentagon, but plenty of people seem to have had the inside track on what was about to happen and protected themselves in the stock markets accordingly.
KNIGHTS TEMPLAR? MASONS? ILLUMINATY?
Whatever this secret society chooses to call itself these days, be well advised, they have long ago strayed from the benevolant and protective actions and attitudes of the Knights of old. Today, these beasts merely gather to plot how to make themselves even more wealthy and poweful while pouring their derisions on all others not part of their social standing.

prison for the SKULLS and all other secret societies set up to deny the will of the people

TREASON AGAINST GOD AND COUNTRY

When did Giuliani’s Christian God give him the right to support Human sacrifice, women killing their own children?

When did his American Constitution give him the right to sacrifice the wealth and blood of the American People, on behalf of domestic and foreign lobbies?

If neither his Christian God, nor his American Constitution, are sacred to him; why would his promises to the American People be sacred to him?