ya we are somewhere in the midst of the sixth great known extinction and the slower we are to halt the severity, the more dire the consequences for future generations will be.

ya you got it all figured out

Now,, I think everyone is looking at this ” HOLY WAR ” thing in the middle east as a solution to a global problem..
Less People = Less Polution = Less Global Warming..
Now what’s the best way to ” CULL OUR HERD “??
That’s a good question..
Plauge?? well that will kill the people we don’t want to have killed.. Namely,,, US..
We don’t want ” US ” killed..
We want ” THEM ” killed..
So?? The logical solution is WAR..
Let’s start it over,,, I don’t know,, someone getting something that ” WE ” don’t want them to get.. Iran & Nukes,, would be a good reason..
How about OIL??
We all like to drive out cars here in America, don’t we??
It’s really very simple folks,,
We have no major war in over 60 years, we have a population problem..
Look what happens during times of plenty on the farms,, rats breed like crazy..
The world has had over 60 Years of plenty of peace, I guess we humans have proven that rats and rabbits ain’t got nothin on us when it comes to breeding..
I know, folks are going to rag me about this,, but who is going to prove me wrong??
I don’t want war..
But I don’t always get what I want.
Deer don’t like Deer season,, but deer are not starving to death, like before they opened deer season.
My dears,, When will our season open??

Blood: As if you and yours have it all figured out, right?

I always thought similar to Delta Wild Man.

Of course plague, war, and dissorters are horrible but they are really all part of natural selection. And as said in the article about how technological advances are faster then our moral progress. Basically, we are taking our technology and using them to keep alive people with deformations, STDs, and all the other natural “deciders” from taking effect. 100s and 100s of years ago humans barely lived past 18 and now they are passing 100! There has to be something wrong in that. Of course, you might say things like, “What if your father has cancer. You are just going to let him die?” “Your brother is enlisting into the war. You aren’t going to convince him otherwise?” It is very harsh and my family knows

(cont. of below) I love them but it’s Gaia doing it.

If we, the people of Earth, don’t think of anything at all that can help the human species then all I can say is that we are f*cked

Bush & Cheney & the neocons don’t care about global warming.

They won’t be around to see it. That’s all they care. Live for today.

Sad, but true.

Alec and Deltawildfreak: Are you guys saying we should take our knowledge of science and shelve it because people disease that we can cure USED to kill people? What kind of odd, not in this world, argument is that? Natural selection is one thing, but the ability to prohibit viruses and bacteria from killing people is what separates us from the animals.
That’s like saying we shouldn’t watch TV because our great, great grandfathers didn’t have them.

That wasn’t really their point at all. The point is that the current state of humans as a species is so far beyond the normal restrictions of nature that the world can’t contain us. A mass dying off of people would actually put humanity in a better position as a whole. Of course, you can’t tell someone currently living, or a group of people, that they must die for the betterment of the species. That would be cruel and hypocritical. However, limiting the number of births in the world seems to make a lot of sense when your civilization is going to be destroyed and many people will die from hunger otherwise. Just a thought. Maybe the Chinese were on to something.

A note on this article: whether you agree that global warming is man-made and exponentially getting worse, or not, the fact is we are still in a time period between ice ages and are due for another one to arise (don’t know much about that, do you liberals?… that’s what you get for getting your info from Al Gore). Global warming, at its very worst, will only delay this circumstance, and will not kill 6 billion people by the end of the century. If you want to use global warming as a reason for being more eco-friendly, I’m all for that. But if you want to use it as a political platform, saying, “The world will be destroyed if you vote for those global warming skeptics, Republicans,” you’re a liar and a propagandist.

Coach

I think we might be missing the point I was trying to make,,
As In,,,
There might be too many of us on this planet..
I’m not saying there is,, I’m just saying that we might need to look at it.
You will agree that most of us will breed at the drop of a hat..
If it were not for the intro of BIRTH CONTROL, I dare say, someone would be looking at producing a food source from,,, dare I say it.. other people??
Humans are animals just like rats, rabbits, cows and chickens..
Being the “HEAD HONCHO” of animals on this planet, don’t change the fact that we’re animals just the same,, and guess what??
Most animals will breed up to a food level..
In other words,, If we ain’t starving,, we’re making more of us!!
Don’t think I’m telling the truth??

Look at the rats,, look at the rabbits, and all animals, when food is abundant..

Remember COACH, we are The HUMAN ANIMAL.

Kid,

You like to call yourself a moderate, but you sure do spend a lot of time bashing liberals. I admit, it’s good sport and we’re easy targets. We openly and honestly discuss matters. Of course, that IS the society we live in, created, by the way, by liberals. Not by conservatives and certainly not by moderates who simply let the Cons have their way. Dupes was one term perhaps not coined by McCarthy, but certainly used by him in deriding liberals. It would seem to be applicable to some moderates as well.

You’re ‘probably’ right that we are ‘probably’ ‘between’ ice ages. History would certainly seem to indicate as much. But given that no one can actually predict the future yet, unless you know something I don’t, then we’d better leave the option of another ice age in the problematic bin, don’t you think? And given our present course, a case could be made, albeit small and ‘problematic,’ that man won’t be around then anyway. We’ll have sucked the life out of this rock and if any have survived, moved on to our next ‘victim.’

Of course, from your post, you DO seem to be predicting that man will NOT manage to kill himself by the end of this century. I guess you know something the rest of us do not. Given that the problem is escalating, NOT declining is of little import to you. You seem confident that in the knick of time ‘something’ will save us from ourselves. Perhaps so. Perhaps only half of human life, animal life, plant life and fish life will perish by the end of this century. Hey, what’s the problem, bro?

Further, from your post, it would appear you think the only one alarmed by the current situation is Al ‘effing’ Gore and his disciples. I think a lot of eminent scientists AND our own eminent Ole would be offended and take exception to that position. If that IS your position, then perhaps you should listen to someone besides Rush. Or were you just bashing liberals then, being disingenuous to the point of being clever. If so, then you need to work on it some. Practice on your siblings. It’ll take time, but with maturity, you will master the art.

Time will tell, time will tell. And, it’s already told me one thing. The ‘moderates’ (people who don’t like Bush, but are Republican) are starting to agree that we’re on our way to another ice age. Boy, has that rhetoric come full circle for them. First, it was a cycle. Then, it was ‘possibly’ man-made. Now, it’s a definite.
As for me. I do agree with China’s principles on putting a maximum on children. I agree that our breeding practices, and abortion opponents are bad for the planet. I agree that we won’t have enough resources to feed the amount of people and something needs to be done. But, you know what? That’s what my god (mother nature) does. She takes care of these problems for us by making it cold as hell, too cold to live. She causes extinctions.
Can we control it? Hell no. Can we put it off? Possibly. But, here’s the point: The republicans and their K-street oil lobby are the ones that are going to bring us to that extinction faster than anyone else. Funny, coming from the party of life, and all……..
But, like I’ve been saying for a long time now: as soon as these appeasing republican/conservative/racist s/can’thaveathoughtforthemselv es senators retire/die, we’ll all be better off. It’s those types of senators that have suppressed any attempt by us to get off oil, which would slow down the warming.
But, it’s starting to sound like their response is to say: “Slow down? We want the ice age right now, so as to kill a bunch of people and control the population.”
Keep spinning, GiantOppressiveParty.

Nothing will be done until the water starts to break over the tip of Manhattan. Of course it will be too late, but that’s what it will take.

>

This is nonsense. Utter nonsense.

I am hesitant to waste my time attempting a response.

Mankind has a vested interest in managing our population growth and increasing our agricultural output to match our growth. But that is a totally different creature from suggesting that a mass die-off would make us the survivors a better species. Do you know the number of fields that would go fallow if, say, another black plague spread through Europe, or if Eboli ran amock through Africa? The amount of resources that might suddenly be out of reach, like copper for your cell phone or penicillin for your wounds? To say nothing of the cultures, languages, and ideas that would be lost…

The idea that somehow, the human species has become Gaia’s plague — that we are pestilence the earth needs to purge — assumes that the earth craves some prelasparian equilibrium. Earth is not a nostalgist, it’s a planet– a scientific being that, carefully managed, could nourish a human population far greater than the current crop: For instance, it has been estimated that the Congo Basin, properly farmed, could feed the whole of its hemisphere. AIDS is not the only solution to world hunger, CC. In fact, it isn’t even a solution.

We just have to be responsible members of the world community, and that starts with not saying idiotic and insensitive, and ignorant things online.

“A mass dying off of people would actually put humanity in a better position as a whole. ”

This is nonsense. Utter nonsense.

I am hesitant to waste my time attempting a response.

Mankind has a vested interest in managing our population growth and increasing our agricultural output to match our growth. But that is a totally different creature from suggesting that a mass die-off would make us the survivors a better species. Do you know the number of fields that would go fallow if, say, another black plague spread through Europe, or if Eboli ran amock through Africa? The amount of resources that might suddenly be out of reach, like copper for your cell phone or penicillin for your wounds? To say nothing of the cultures, languages, and ideas that would be lost…

The idea that somehow, the human species has become Gaia’s plague — that we are pestilence the earth needs to purge — assumes that the earth craves some prelasparian equilibrium. Earth is not a nostalgist, it’s a planet– a scientific being that, carefully managed, could nourish a human population far greater than the current crop: For instance, it has been estimated that the Congo Basin, properly farmed, could feed the whole of its hemisphere. AIDS is not the only solution to world hunger, CC. In fact, it isn’t even a solution.

We just have to be responsible members of the world community, and that starts with not saying idiotic and insensitive, and ignorant things online.

wow!!

It makes no sense to me so it’s all nonsense. There’s no way that a massive reduction in population would help the planet, we are such a great help as it is!!! people are such selfish morons.

DirtyDennis
Don’t respond to my posts anymore. Every single time you read in something that isn’t there, spin the post as a whole, then use it for your talking points. I am not going to get into another agrument about things I didn’t say and positions I don’t hold. You don’t know me and you don’t care about my actual points on the issues, so don’t even bother to respond because I won’t respond back.

Go be consistent and kill yourself Jed. Prove your conviction that selfishness is wrong. Be altruistic and reduce the human population by one. You said it would help, so go ahead. So long, I’ll wish you well.

awesome Dennis finally got the fart sniffer to recognize his own tactics when they come at him from others. Next step, getting him to stop using those tactics on others. A much more difficult endeavour since it is much easier to recognize other’s faults than it is to recognize those faults within themselves and correcting it. Best of luck with that kid.

Do you need any more evidence than the ruins in central and south america to realize that once we are gone mother nature will repair herself and bring the right balance back?
It’s all about the water, revitalize and protect the water and it will help recreate everything as if by magic. The cornucopia of prosperity can be re-activated, we merely have to implement schauberger’s theories and solutions and at the same time inhibit those players that would do things to improve their own lot without consideration for the whole. In fact, those that would hurt the whole for selfish ends should be prevented from influencing the system by incarceration of at least a decade without early release.

DD: I’m kinda with you. Doesn’t sound like he wants to be accountable for saying things like: “But if you want to use it as a political platform, saying, “The world will be destroyed if you vote for those global warming skeptics, Republicans,” you’re a liar and a propagandist. ”
First of all, the republicans are the only party supporting this war. The republicans are the only ones keeping us on oil. So, it’s not a lie. It may be propoganda, to an extent, but can the truth be propoganda??

Although I understood what Prop was saying. The end ruined any sense of moderation.

Arby,

And I’m with you. The Kid often has good insight and some valid observations. And I have praised him on such occasions. But he also seems to have a ‘need’ to toss in one-liners that frankly insult and do him no justice. I think it’s been made clear that if anyone attacks the Left, I stand ready to defend in kind. If it’s a measured, reasoned attack, my response will be likewise. If the attack is personal and petty, then I feel like it’s open-season and anything goes.

am i the only one who the link did not work for?

Propaganda sniffer,
“However, limiting the number of births in the world seems to make a lot of sense when your civilization is going to be destroyed and many people will die from hunger otherwise.”

Does this mean you’re in favor of abortions if the goal is restrained population? Can’t make an omlette without crushing a few eggs right? Although if you read anything you’d know that when populations achieve a certain level of affluence having a lot of children doesn’t make sense and in fact, doesn’t happen. Now it seems the best way to effect that outcome would be a massive redistribution of wealth away from the rich to everyone else, to mitigate the risk of not having a lot of offspring to protect your genes.

This is a way around killing billions of people. Although you’re conservative so I understand if you want to sadistically torture billions of people and watch them die; that’s just in your nature.

Word: That’s a three-pointer my friend!
Yes, Piglet is the kind of person who thinks every decision made should reference the economy first. In other words, how will this hurt the rich……
As if mother nature gives a flying f*ck about the economy. In fact, she’s proving it right now in southern california.

interesting how dry trees get when the water table drops enough to not reach their roots huh?

Humans seem to have no capacity to understand things they cannot see. They see the effect but they give up on finding the cause when it becomes too dificult and settle for a superficial explanation that usually doesn’t even make sense.
They know something is affecting them, yet they can’t put their finger on it for some reason. They intuit the danger approaching, yet can’t make the connection in time to protect themselves.

Let me help you out a little bit.
What is the most valuable substance in the universe?
WATER!!
It is incredibly scarce, yet our planet is loaded with it.
Now imagine that someone else notices that water and wants it for themselves… because they wasted theirs and cann no longer sustain life.
The easiest way to take it is to cause those that are suppossed to protect it to fight amongst themselves.
Force them to do things to weaken their protective shield such as pumping toxins into the atmosphere and the waters as well as prevent the natural energetic flow of water.
They would reduce the mass of flora and fauna by causing the ‘intelligent’ creatures to value those things only for their economic worth, not their function in the web of life, and comercializing life to the extent of making it worthless.
Then, when those ‘intelligent’ beings have pushed themselves to the edge of extinction, when almost all wildlife is non existent and famine and war are the order of the day because of scarecity, they will show themselves and offer us a new world, intelligently designed just for us, where we can live out the rest of our lives in relative safety and comfort within a test tube with electronic connections providing all the realities our imaginations can withstand.
Our tortured souls will become their inexhaustible power source and the water THEIR giver of life, since we chose to ignore the value of water and accept the value of commerce pushed upon us, the intergalactic laws will protect them and allow them their spoils of war.
And they didn’t even loose one operative, they didn’t even have to disclose their existance till the last minute. All they had to do is what is valued in our justice systems… just introduce a certain degree of doubt and the doubters will do the rest.

Coach – I hate to disappoint you but the fires in Calif. have nothing to do with algore made-up global warming. Southern Calif. is a desert. They had fires long before the left concocted global warming.

Word – Naturally you wish the government to take money from those who earned it and give it to your lazy ass, who did nothing to earn it.

They earned it?
Isn’t the goal of businessmen to set up a company, staff it with the cheapest labor possible, preferably iliterate foreigners that don’t understand the value of the work they are doing, then set up someone to manage it and then go enjoy the fruits of other peoples labor?
That isn’t earning it, that is taking a premium for setting up a business. This is equivalent to say… halliburton setting up some subcontracting companies to work in New Orleans. The Gov pays halliburton a fee with an expectation of employees being paid x ammount of dollars. Halliburton then passes off these contracts to the subcontractors it has set up. Some of these subcontractors do nothing but split up the contract to others subcontractors that do the same. At each step the relevant company takes it’s cut, say, 20% to 80% in some cases. When the contract finally reaches the workers almost 90% of it’s value has been sucked out by middlemen, the guys who were brought here to work from Guatemala get about $7 a day rather than the $40/hr allocated by the contract. They get no benefits or insurance. They have to pay for their meals, conveniently provided to them at a premium by the company, their housing, a converted refrigerated trailer with 10 bunkbeds 3 deep at $300 a month and when they get injured they are disposed of by having their visa revoked. Yup, these guys ‘earned’ their money allright. These days they are earning it by profiting off of chinese slavelike conditions and indian ‘untouchables’ being paid pennies on the day for work that would be valued at tens of thousands a year.

Good Grief-

You are wasting your time.

Pig-Mentality

FYI-Californi a has been in a long drought for several years-I am a native Californian and this has been Highly Unusual to have so many fires, such a long drought(the southwest) had also experienced unusually long dry spells.

If you are Stupid enough(and you seem to quality well)to think this is the Norm, you are bonkers…

The whole country is experiencing some very unusual weather conditions.

New York was unseasonably hot when I was there, DC was very warm(the trees are still green and turning, but very late and, Boston was even mild…

Only those who choose to keep their collective heads in the sand refuse to acknowledge was is going on-you and Glen Beck should get together-your tact and global awareness is miniscule.

Why isn’t CNN being taken to task for hiring an incompetent to “host his own show”?

Viewers should be calling the sponsers and demanding Change-this guy who pretends to be “in the middle” is an imbecilic Republican lap-dog-how many on CNN and MSNBC-offering No Choice in political views but far-right c–p!

Sponsers need to be targeted as well as network execs and that might trump the oil/pharmaceutical/insurance hold on these networks…

The White House’s Control over the media needs to be Voted Out and boycotting products Works…

Tired of the imbalance and misrepresentation-Olbermann is the only liberal voice to the other six or seven right-wing lap-dogs!

Scarborough was starting to see the Republican defects but was put on early morning status-and is handled by a team of rightie inepts, now!

Developers should not be allowed to build in high risk fire districts-that should be legislation…California would be greatly benefited…

Allowing Bush and his photo-ops at yet another tragedy he and his perpetual tax cuts for the weathly, have made worse, is Obscene.

He needs to stop showing up days late, sniffing around and, Trolling for Photo-Ops, and making Empty Promises he has no intention of making good on…Just more hot air that California does not need!

I have family near some of the fire areas and I have No patience with Becks or Pigs or phony Politicians like Bush…

Miss Piggy: Plain and simple. You’re an uneducated mule. Keep pointing the finger at the liberals. They’ve (we’ve) been right about so many more things than the conservatives in the last 200 years, that it’s no big deal to hear another kool-aid drinker spew some vile crap.
And, to comment on your ‘tax dollars going to people who don’t deserve it’ comment: WHAT THE HELL ARE OUR TAX DOLLARS SUPPOSED TO GO TO????? Fighting a figment of your imagination in some long lost sandy dune in the middle east? It’s okay to spend a trillion on that, but not here at home? What did the guys at Blackwater and KBR do to deserve the 160 thousand dollars of tax money??
Do us all a favor and come up with valid statements or educate yourself. One other thing: Have the liberals put us 8 trillion dollars in debt?

Ole,

You’re closer to this than most, isn’t the ‘reality’ that no one knows what the result of ‘global warming’ will be? Only that there be change. Some areas could experience greater cold, more rain, more severe storms, or just the opposite. This planet’s eco-system is a finely tuned house of cards and once a disruption occurs, all manner of possible results are made available.

One scenario I found truly draconian involved a change in the gulf stream that resulted in England’s temperatures dropping, as well, I would have to guess, as those of France and Germany.

I’m not nearly as alarmed about the whole business as some. I adhere to Desiderata, that the universe is unfolding as it should. But I wonder in amazement at the naysayers. How they can stand by and watch this planet’s oxygenators be replaced with hydrocarbonators and claim, ‘no harm, no foul’ is beyond me. ‘Something’ is going to happen, the exactitude of which will be argued for centuries.

read viktor Schaubergers books and you will realize just how accurate his predictions have been. Better yet, he provides solutions and a new way of looking at nature and it’s processes.
Too bad so few are even interested.

Please Coach tell me all things liberals have been right about, I can’t wait to hear this one. What is amazing is watching the left attempt to use the tradegy in Calif. for political gain. It really shows what a bunch of bottom feeders liberals are.

And I don’t recall saying anything about my tax dollors. How about this the government leave my dollars in my wallet. You show how liberals think, liberals think the money someone earns belongs to the government and the government can take what it wants and then decide how much the person who earned gets to keep.

And I would not be calling someone uneducated if I were you. You are a liberal, you follow and ideology based on lies. How educated is that? And this quote really shows your ignorance:

“Yes, Piglet is the kind of person who thinks every decision made should reference the economy first. In other words, how will this hurt the rich……”

So you think the economy is only about the rich, how stupid can you get. The economy effects every single persons life. What you don’t seem to grasp is that most people wish to have a job and be productive and provide for their family, they do not sit around hoping for government handouts.

“What is amazing is watching the left attempt to use the tradegy in Calif. for political gain. It really shows what a bunch of bottom feeders liberals are.”

HHHHAAAAA! You slimy little southern con! Who used the 911 attacks for their own political gain huh? THE PEOPLE YOU VOTE FOR.

And by “political gain” you apparently mean supporting legislative tools that combat global warming so that fires of this magnitude are less likely to happen again. Apparently to you it’s a partisan thing to fight for one’s own home and survival. Where was that line of thought after the terrorists attacked? Seems like the hallmark of a conservative is hypocrisy.

“What you don’t seem to grasp is that most people wish to have a job and be productive and provide for their family, they do not sit around hoping for government handouts.”

Expect apparently, the heads of U.S. oil companies, the ethanol lobby, the insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry, the defense industry, “security” contractors, subsidized American farmers, etc…
Seems like “capitalists” can’t do well unless they’re subsidized by public money or laws huh? Bet they didn’t teach that down on them good ol’ dixie plantations.

Roasted pork! MMMMMMMM!

ah yes, one side using the others actions as justification…just because the right uses 9-11 as a bludgeon gives the left to bludgeon via global warming?

and people wonder why nothing gets done in washington

Hey, Burnt Pig Offerings

Ooo-ye deem to afford me a moment of your attention.

The dust bowl was a combination of poor farming techniques and a drought(not the length or in varied areas and frequency that we are experiencing now)according to history.

Georgia has had a long dry spell(humid and hot-anything but Dry, Georgia), flooding increasing and with more intensity in many states- New England is predicted to be in danger of floods that will be far more severe from more violent storms(Violence is something Republicans seem to respect)so maybe you should let it sink in.

The people who predicted the disaster in New Orleans have some scary scenarios and they seem to be ahead of the game…Where are you, ace?

Fires, flooding from severe storms are on the increase.

“But it’s a cycle”!
It’s a process that is increasing in intensity and that is Global Warming-is science so scary for ‘ya?

Halloween is near but you are strictly meandering around with a bag over your head and way before trick or treat time…It’s No Costume!

If Bush had wisdom and had jumped on the environmental fragility of our earth, and declared “Global Warming”, you’d swallow it whole in a gulp and Shout the Warning.

Look how you swallow war, more war, more tax cuts for the wealthy and, economic blunders up the kazoo-you must remain in your Bush Phony Comfort Bubble-it’s the security blanket for the terminally naive.

California’s weather has changed-and unlike Bushdum ignoring the warning signals for 9/11, fires, floods, severe hurricanes increasing, tornados increasing in quantity, than we are being presented with Red Flag Warnings and it’s about Time we heeded them and avoided more Bush-like disasters!

The fires are another wake-up call but War and Revenge is the only “Realities” you seem to Prefer.

And all the victims of the fires, those now homeless, the victims of Katrina’s bungled rescue and aftermath thank you for your concern and “awareness”- what “compassionate comfort” you cons have for life and limb!

Pig

What Liberals in THIS country have done (that omits, of course, Christianity and the age of enlightenment, stuff like, the Earth is round and the Sun does NOT revolve around it).

Declaration of Independence
U.S. Constitution (I could itemize if you like. EVERYTHING in it was Liberal at the time.)

Do you REALLY want to keep going?

Skip ahead to abolishing slavery. Right for EVERY citizen to vote. With me so far?

Denying capitalists the ‘right’ to enslave labor, specifically, women and children. Denying capitalists the ‘right’ to pollute the air and water. Denying capitalists the ‘right’ to lie and cheat. Overturning Prohibition.

‘Saving’ this country, and it’s capitalists, from the Depression. Providing retirement for all the people of this country who toiled their whole life to make this the country that it is. Providing the GI Bill to returning soldiers. Putting a man on the moon.

I could go on, but shant. I’m going to post this and then begin a list of what the Liberals have NOT been able to do because of weenies like you.

BTW, thanks DD. That was very impressive.

DirtyDennis – Are you really as stupid as you act? Let’s look at your points shall we?

“stuff like, the Earth is round and the Sun does NOT revolve around it).”

Well actually it was a “scientific consensus” that the earth was flat and the sun revolved aroung the earth. Now who is it that keeps screaming about scientific consensus? Oh yeah the global warming mongers…aka liberals.

“Declaration of Independence
U.S. Constitution (I could itemize if you like. EVERYTHING in it was Liberal at the time.)”

Written by rich, white, land owners, mostly southerners, and included no income tax. Hardly liberal.

“Skip ahead to abolishing slavery. Right for EVERY citizen to vote. With me so far?”

Hate to remind you(actually I don’t hate it) but Licoln was a Republican. Then there is the voting rights act. Let’s look at the numbers shall we…

The House 93% of Republicans voted for the act, only 73% of dumbacrats. The Senate 82% of Republicans voted for the act, only 78% of dumbacrats. So much for that one.

“Denying capitalists the ‘right’ to enslave labor, specifically, women and children. Denying capitalists the ‘right’ to pollute the air and water. Denying capitalists the ‘right’ to lie and cheat. Overturning Prohibition.”

Here we go again. Just as many Republicans opposed child labor and supported the 40 hour work week. In fact the first 40 hour work week was signed by a Republican, and it was a Republican that made government contractors implement 40 hour work weeks and pay a living wage (Hoover). It was Nixon that created the evironmental protection agency, not a liberal dumbacrat. And are you really so stupid as to bring prohibition into this? You might want to do some research, since the president at the time was a dumbacrt, and both parties had plenty of people pushing prohibition. In fact the vote was 138 to 68 (69%) for Repubilcans, and 140 to 64 for dumbacrats (68%). So your party had an equal hand in creating prohibition, and both parties had an equal hand in ending it, we’ll just have to call that one a push.

“Saving’ this country, and it’s capitalists, from the Depression. Providing retirement for all the people of this country who toiled their whole life to make this the country that it is. Providing the GI Bill to returning soldiers. Putting a man on the moon.”

Actually Hitler saved us from the Great Depression, since WWII is what pulled us out. But glad to see you consider Hitler a liberal. And you call Social Security providing retirement? Now to the G.I. Bill. Warren H. Atherton is considered the father of the bill and he was a Republican, and it passed congress with no desenting votes. So you can definately not take credit for that one.

Had enough?

Weenie,

I scarce know how to thank you. Your posts alone do more to bolster the cause of Liberalism than anything true believers could possibly compose. Your existence is affirmation as to the worthiness of our calling. Thank You SO Much!!

You should have quit when you called me stupid. Thereafter you slip quickly into the abyss of ignorance and revisionist reality. I AM stupid because I actually thought you could discourse on the matter with some level of erudition. I am properly chastened.

I’m not going to address your points just yet. I want to see what comments you might elicit from others. If you’re lucky, everyone will be watching the series and you’ll slip through unnoticed. But I’ll be back to tie up any loose ends later.

Lincoln a conservative. You’re SO droll.

Just as the body get a fever to kill a virus – the earth is reacting to too many dangerouse organisms. It will get better when the problem is under control.

DirtyDennis – I did not say Lincoln was conservative, I said he was a Republican. Unlike you I am not stupid enough to try and equate today’s political ideologies on people who lived 100 or 200 or more years ago. I simply pointed out how dumb it was of you to try that one. Like the founding fathers being liberal. These liberal founding fathers, btw, said slavery was ok, blacks were 2/3 human, and women could not vote. Actually now that you mention it maybe they were liberals.

Hey pork chop,

So, why are you defending all the major corporations on government welfare again? Could it be that you’re only the big player in a business when you’re getting the payback a generous campaign contribution deserves? Your problem is that you believe capitalism works. That was the communists’ problem.

Werdd – “Your problem is that you believe capitalism works. That was the communists’ problem.”

Let me get this straight, the communist problem was they thought capitalism worked? Never heard that one before. The thing is capitalism does work.

Weenie,

There are TOO many errors in your logic to address in one passage, but I shall give it a shot. It may be slow and painful for you to follow this. Put your fingers on the words and say them allow. That may help. You probably don’t remember your original question, let me show it to you:
“Please Coach tell me all things liberals have been right about, I can’t wait to hear this one.”

Nowhere do you say, in your question, Democrats or Republicans, science or any such thing. Please reread your question again. With me still. There are a number of definitions for both Liberal and Conservative. Can we agree that Liberals are FOR change and Conservatives are not? That’s my basic contention and history will support me on that I believe.

That said, the folks in the middle ages and before who thought the world was flat and that the Sun revolved around the earth could easily be referred to as Conservatives and those who challenged dogma could be considered Liberals. With me on that? And how did THAT turn out?

Your next contention is that the framers of the DOI and Constitution were rich, white landowners, ergo could not POSSIBLY be Liberals. That statement speaks volumes to your ignorant bias young man. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson Conservative? If we’d lost the war, they’d have been strung up. Lest you missed that in the AL version of history, the Tories were the Conservatives, EVERYONE who fought against the crown was fighting for a new form of government. Not exactly a Conservative position.

In a later post you argue that slavery was ‘accepted’ in the Constitution, ergo, it must be a Conservative document. My, how life must look to you through your inverted binoculars. The U.S. Constitution was a compromise. No slavery, no Constitution. The framers believed that ‘peculiar institute’ would die a natural death. They were wrong in most ways, but ultimately correct.

It is at this point you bring in the term Republican as if that somehow means Conservative. I find it hard to believe that the AL history books didn’t point out that aside from Lincoln, the Republicans were mean-spirited capitalists who set out to bleed (punish?) the South for it’s ‘transgressions.’ Are you SURE you’re from AL? Lincoln may NOT have been a Liberal but he sure as HELL wasn’t a Conservative.

But now you’ve altered your own argument, again, into that of Republican vs Democrat, as if there was no such thing as a Liberal Republican (TR?) nor Conservative Liberal (Wilson?).

You trumpet the voting record for the Voting Rights Act (nice factoid, if correct) as if it’s meaningful. Again, I have to question that you’re TRULY from the South. Haven’t you ever heard of Dixicrats? In case you missed THAT too, they were Southern Democrats who were, in fact, Conservatives. Since the Civil War, all southern congressmen were Democrats in opposition to the HATED Republicans (quite a change from today). They voted Conservative as a bloc. Does the name Strom Thurmond ring a bell?

You proudly proclaim the records of some Republicans in voting for and installing better working conditions. That’s fine, but what’s your point? Please return to your original question: What have Liberals done? Not Conservatives and CERTAINLY not Liberal Republicans.

As to Nixon, although he is remembered most for Watergate, he certainly does NOT fit the mold of Conservative. It’s no matter, all he did was respond to the times and create one agency, the better to control, out of several disjointed ones.

Actually yes, Hitler DID end the Depression. Let’s see, the Depression began October, 1929 and the U.S. entered WWII in 1942, realistically.( That’s roughly 12 years in case your math is as weak as your history.) And FDR was Prez from 1932, three years AFTER Hoover could NOT do anything about the Depression. And your contention is FDR had NOTHING to do with it? Lame, my boy, lame.

Finally, you lay the GI Bill at the feet of a Republican and close your ‘argument.’ Once again, denying the existence of ANY Liberal Republicans at a time when the Prez, a Liberal, was serving his FOURTH term and a Liberal controlled Congress was enjoying what would be a thirty year run. Don’t you think after a while some Republicans would ‘get a clue,’ and run on a Liberal platform? Or do you think all Republicans are as stupid as the current flock?

Have I had enough? Oh yes, your convoluted perspective on history has worn me out.

DD-

“…the folks in the middle ages and before who thought the world was flat and that the Sun revolved around the earth could easily be referred to as Conservatives and those who challenged dogma could be considered Liberals.”

I don’t think this statement stands to reason. When you refer to the segment of the population who supported heliocentrism , you are talking about a small handful of people – not comparable to a widely held political perspective such as what liberalism has come to represent today. The heliocentrists were simply better informed than the vast majority of their contemporaries. I challenge anyone who will argue that being better informed is the hallmark of modern liberlism. Anyway, bear in mind that there was solid observational data that supported geocentrism. It wasn’t until the nineteenth century that equipment was sensitive enough to detect stellar parallax and seal the deal once and for all. If had turned out that the earth had been the center of the Universe, I am sure liberals would think of the Copernicans as conservatives who tried to force a return to sun-worship. Hindsight is 20-20 and it’s just too damn easy for us to identify with those who history has proven to be correct.

“Can we agree that Liberals are FOR change and Conservatives are not?”

This is also a bit off the mark. Most of what has been driving conservatives since the Reagan era, for example, has been a drive to change things. A so-called liberal might look at the social welfare programs that were started by FDR and Johnson as advancements, but I think that a so-called conservatives might just as well argue that these programs undo the advancements that were made in and after the enlightenment which sought to reduce, if not eliminate the interference of the state in the affairs of men and markets – a condition that had persisted for time-eternal.

I think in the end, it’s actually very unclear who of our predecessors were actually liberal or conservative in so far as they can be indentified as manifesting the characteristics that we’ve come to associate with those terms today. The argument is too one-dimensional to really be satisfying to me, so I try to avoid it.

Ole,

Clearly I don’t avoid it. I have to ‘run’ and will be away for a while, so can’t respond in kind.

Suffice to say, I stand by my definition of for and against change. The current crop, as you say, want to change, but THEIR change is to undo change that has already occured. They are retro-. You can argue the merits of the fact but I doubt you’ll disagree.

Man has evolved in 2000+ years. He has done so by changing. All along the way there have been naysayers preaching doom and gloom against the unconventional. They have been proven repeatedly wrong. As such, I can understand why you don’t like using them as a basis of comparison. Your arguments frame much better using a test tube method.

Don’t be selective. Are you saying the DOI and Constitution were NOT progressive/liberal documents. That this whole experiment of democratic republic is NOT a progressive movement? That what conservatives now are clamoring to return to was not once anathema to them?

You might be able to argue my theme given the context, but I don’t consider that highly fair. I was ‘debating’ someone of questionable perspective and had to couch my remarks relative to his. If you’d love to expand the discussion, I’d be delighted.

But first, take my individual positions vis a vis Weenie, and argue. THEN we can elevate.

DD-

I think that the idea of a homogenized conservative perspective is misleading – just as misleading as a homogenized liberal perspective. Dichotomy is something we tend to cling to because it makes things easier to understand, but it is really quite limited in its ability to capture the variety of points of view and range of emotions that people display. In my opinion, we cling to the conservative/liberal dichotomy out of frustration that our true intentions can never be fully expressed or realized. So we pick a winner and hope for the best, and if we don’t prevail, at least we have the consolation of cursing the villains who thwart us and our side. It’s so primitive; it’s stoneage thinking; and I wonder if we’ll ever be able to overcome it.

Ole,

It would appear your comrade in arms, Weenie Breath, has vanished into the underbrush. As Word, Cake and Coach can attest, he’s left ‘the scene of HIS crime’ all too often. He’ll surface in a week or so as if nothing ever happened. Coward.

You’re be surprised, I’m sure, to discover I totally disagree with you. Not, of course, in your assertion, for you articulate textbook versions of magnanimous objectivity. Rather, in the underlying premise. To wit, everyone has SOME good, why can’t we all get along?

Pardon me if I respond to that the same way you responded to FEMA’s staged press conference. Dare I repeat, for the umpteenth time, ‘the road to hell is paved with good intentions?’ I live in the heartland, they are some of the most wonderful people in the world. But they’re clueless when it comes to geopolitics. I think Bush really does mean well. Hell, he’s too stupid to think otherwise. Which makes him the most dangerous man since … Reagan, another catatonic vegetable with his finger hovering above the launch button. Well, they’re both good ol boys and mean well, cut ‘em some slack.

YOUR ASS!! Too much is at stake. I’ll take a philandering, scheming, womanizing, red-nosed reindeer like Clinton over the three zombies that have occupied the office representing the Republican party, thank you. If that’s divisive and non-productive, screw it.

I wouldn’t say I am advocating objectivity. I am pointing out that dichotomy obscures reality. There’s a big difference.

Regarding my response to FEMA. I am not excusing FEMA. I am disgusted by it. Heads should role. Maybe someone should be horsewhipped publicly. But I don’t think this is a Bushney conspiracy. I saw this kind of think a lot when I was teaching. Students actually thought they were entitled to have tests entirely composed of homework problems. I had one young aspiring engineer who couldn’t grasp the finer points of trigonometry. So, you don’t need to tell me about the dangers of an indifferent population. I think our culture is very scared of making mistakes, taking risks, having something at stake. It disgusts me. It frightens me. I daresay it keeps me awake at night. I don’t think it is sinister, though. It’s weakness nothing more and nothing less. Everything needs to be dealt with in its own way.

Ole,

I must not have made my point clear. I WAS speaking to your point on dichotomy and only used FEMA as a point of reference as to the similarity of our responses. And I should point out that I don’t disagree with MOST of what you say.

What I don’t agree with, specifically, is that the presence of polarizing perspectives indicates an absence of reasoned consideration. I am not against ALL Conservatives per se. I AM against the Right as presently configured.

I believe that humans are, for the most part, conservative by nature. ‘Change’ is frightening and needs to be approached with caution. I believe Liberals are, at the core, a minority party whose role is to keep pushing society out of its complacency and dogma.

That said, I believe there is an enormous gulf between the philosophies underlying both positions. A gulf not easily breached. I think it’s important to distinguish that the gulf lies between the leaders of the Right and the mass comprising the Left. I don’t think the ‘average’ Republican thinks along the lines of the Party leadership, if they even know what those ‘lines’ are and I don’t think the Left HAS leadership. At least not as organized and cohesive as that of the Right.

I don’t subscribe to the notion that the Right, as portrayed by their leadership, wants the same thing as the Left (masses) only have differing ideas of how to achieve those ends. I believe that the Right I am defining believes in some divine right to rule, to create a world order of their design, and that ‘subtleties’ like individual rights and human suffering are necessary casualties in the creation of that world order.

I believe that the leadership of the Right, and MANY of their adherents, believe in a class system with themselves, not surprisingly, at the top of the system. I believe this segment of the Right has always existed but only gains power periodically. I believe that ‘this too shall pass,’ but in its wake will be anguish, heartache and betrayals that will take generations to heal.

It is very clear to me that the Right has all the resources to orchestrate its agenda. All the Left has in response is it’s voice and it’s ability to raise that voice in protest. I don’t expect that ‘voice’ to deter the Right in any way so if the voice becomes shrill, excessive or hysterical from time to time, I have NO problem with that.

Finally, I do NOT believe the Right represents most of this country. Given that over half of the population does not participate in the choosing of our leaders and that most of them belong to the bottom of the class system as organized by the Right, it would be a stretch to presume their interests are represented. I believe that half of the population suffers from ignorance and apathy and that the Right actively cultivates both conditions, just as it did with the blacks of the South.

If you want to see change, wait until the sleeping giant of the masses awakes. It shall, of course, and that scares the bee Jesus out of the Right. Scares me a little too.

hey can I post on this site even?

“Let me get this straight, the communist problem was they thought capitalism worked?”

Like a normal southerner, you haven‘t gotten it straight. Maybe that’s why you lost the civil war: because you are irretrievably stupid.

Like a normal southerner, you haven‘t gotten it straight. Maybe that’s why you lost the civil war: because you are irretrievably stupid.

Like a normal southerner, you haven‘t gotten it straight. Maybe that’s why you lost the civil war: because you are irretrievably stupid.

Like a normal southerner, you haven‘t gotten it straight. Maybe that’s why you lost the civil war: because you are irretrievably stupid.

Like a normal southerner, you haven‘t gotten it straight. Maybe that’s why you lost the civil war: because you are irretrievably stupid.

Like a normal southerner, you haven‘t gotten it straight. Maybe that’s why you lost the civil war: because you are irretrievably stupid.

Like a normal southerner, you haven‘t gotten it straight. Maybe that’s why you lost the civil war: because you are irretrievably stupid.

Like a normal southerner, you haven‘t gotten it straight. Maybe that’s why you lost the civil war: because you are irretrievably stupid.

Like a normal southerner, you haven‘t gotten it straight. Maybe that’s why you lost the civil war: because you are irretrievably stupid.

Like a normal southerner, you haven‘t gotten it straight. Maybe that’s why you lost the civil war: because you are irretrievably stupid.

You failed, like a normal southerner, to respond to my repudiation of capitalism itself. Again: why are you defending all the major corporations on government welfare?

Unregulated capitalism doesn’t work. That is what George W. Bush and his libertarian con friends have proven.

This site’s filter is so unbelievably bad that I can’t even envision visiting this site any more. Goodbye Rollingstone.

This site’s filter is so unbelievably bad that I can’t even envision visiting this site any more. Goodbye Rollingstone.

This site’s filter is so unbelievably bad that I can’t even envision visiting this site any more. Goodbye Rollingstone.

This site’s filter is so unbelievably bad that I can’t even envision visiting this site any more. Goodbye Rollingstone.

This site’s filter is so unbelievably bad that I can’t even envision visiting this site any more. Goodbye Rollingstone.

This site’s filter is so unbelievably bad that I can’t even envision visiting this site any more. Goodbye Rollingstone.

This site’s filter is so unbelievably bad that I can’t even envision visiting this site any more. Goodbye Rollingstone.

This site’s filter is so unbelievably bad that I can’t even envision visiting this site any more. Goodbye Rollingstone.

This site’s filter is so unbelievably bad that I can’t even envision visiting this site any more. Goodbye Rollingstone.

This site’s filter is so unbelievably bad that I can’t even envision visiting this site any more. Goodbye Rollingstone.

This site’s filter is so unbelievably bad that I can’t even envision visiting this site any more. Goodbye Rollingstone.

Dennis – Nice try but you fail as always.

“Can we agree that Liberals are FOR change and Conservatives are not? That’s my basic contention and history will support me on that I believe.”

No we can’t agree on that, and histroy does not support you. Conservative have no problem with change we simply believe in allowing things to take their natural course, liberals like to try and force it with government.

“You trumpet the voting record for the Voting Rights Act (nice factoid, if correct) as if it’s meaningful. Again, I have to question that you’re TRULY from the South. Haven’t you ever heard of Dixicrats?”

I knew you would break out the dixiecrat argument, that is the one the left always uses when it is pointed out that more Republicans supported the voting rights act than dumbacrats. And how convient of you to say all Republicans that agree with you are liberal Republicans and all dumbacrats that disagree are conservative dumbacrats. Hindsight is 20/20 and how easy it is to look back and claim those who agree with you are liberal and those who are not were conservative.

“In a later post you argue that slavery was ‘accepted’ in the Constitution, ergo, it must be a Conservative document.”

I did not say it was a conservative document, I said it was not a liberal document. I have enough sense not to try and equate something that took place two hundered plus years ago with todays political ideologies, unlike you.

“That said, the folks in the middle ages and before who thought the world was flat and that the Sun revolved around the earth could easily be referred to as Conservatives and those who challenged dogma could be considered Liberals. With me on that? And how did THAT turn out?”

Stupid of you to use this one again. As I have pointed out, and history shows, the scientific consensus was the earth was flat, and the debate was over. Now who is screaming the debate is over now? Oh yeah the left. So it would be safe to say the flat earthers were liberal.

But let’s look at something the left did “accomplish”. Communism is without a doubt a leftist ideology, and what is the body count up to now? 60 million and counting. Good work.

And finally this little gem.

“It would appear your comrade in arms, Weenie Breath, has vanished into the underbrush. As Word, Cake and Coach can attest, he’s left ‘the scene of HIS crime’ all too often. He’ll surface in a week or so as if nothing ever happened. Coward.”

You love to try and claim I fear you and run from you, I know you need anything you can to make you feel like a man, but the last thing I do is run from you. I refuse to waste my time on lenthy posts only to have RS erase them, but it has nothing to do with you, so don’t give yourself too much credit.

“As I have pointed out, and history shows, the scientific consensus was the earth was flat, and the debate was over.”

According to you the scientific consensus during the middle ages was considered “liberal.” Actually, it wasn’t. Try again conservative.

“Conservative have no problem with change we simply believe in allowing things to take their natural course, liberals like to try and force it with government.”

Polluting the air and causing global warming is not allowing things “to take their natural course.” In fact, the government subsidizes companies that do pollute. Try again, conservative.

“But let’s look at something the left did “accomplish”. Communism is without a doubt a leftist ideology, and what is the body count up to now? 60 million and counting. Good work.”

The deaths resulting from “communist” dictatorships were not the result of communism. Communism has never existed on this earth. Those deaths were the result of brutal dictators.

Things the right accomplished: Nazism, Fascism, electing George W Bush. The deaths from these movements combined with those from leaders the CIA installed, targeted workers, child laborers, etc… number in the trillions.

try again, conservative.

Number in the billions I mean.

Scientist,

Touché!!

Ween ie and I have trouble understanding one another, so it’s nice to see some of his absurd assertions revealed from different perspectives. It’s especially refreshing to see your comments on communism. I’m no fan of the system, but to claim the Soviet Union was an example of communism is bogus. The ‘Party’ merely replaced the Czar and the politburo replaced the duma(?).

Exactly…I think that’s actually Pig’s point.

Ole,

Are you SURE you want to side with Weenie Breath on that one? If you are, which would be the most ‘Liberal’ interpretation of his point I could imagine, are we to conclude, therefore, that by NOT mentioning his other wild-assed assertions (i.e., the U.S. Constitution is NOT a liberal document) that you agree with him?

I think you should have held your tongue, you’re on a vewy, vewy slippewy slope.

PS Notice how he makes some lame excuse and disappears into the canebreak? The man gives new meaning to the phrase cut ‘n run.

“Like a normal southerner, you haven‘t gotten it straight. Maybe that’s why you lost the civil war: because you are irretrievably stupid.”
Gotta love the sensitive leftist. I guess the southerners were smarter than the coloreds they enslaved, no? Idiotic guttersnipe.