Thanks for an obvious observation. Thank you for the promise to listen as well.

YAY, WE’RE AS STUPID AND LAME AS THEM. GOD BLESS AMERICA.

If what moveOn is claiming, then they are fully justified in questioning this mans integrity. Look at what they claim he has done.

Yeah, MoveOn went waaay over the edge a long time ago re: Iraq. Its one thing to show resistance and speak out against the policies of the nation, another thing to get sooo carried away that you lose sight of the idea of democracy as dialogue.

They’re getting too big for their bridges…threatening to run primary candidates against moderate Democrats in next year’s election will only hurt them and their party (its not like the GOP will take them on once they’ve burned the DNC).

Not only MoveOn, but also Senators Chuck Shuemer, Diane Fienstein, Harry Reid and other Democrats have lowered themselves to a new low to Mudslinging Politics against General Patraeus prior to any report being read. They Smear a 4 Star General for political gain and change the name of the Iraq Report to the “Patraeus/Bush Report”.
It’s Sad. It’s Embarrassing. And hopefully it backfires on the Democrats and they are forced to back peddle their way out of this.

The Democrats don’t want any successes or positive stories coming out of Iraq.

Look, I am not going to re-debate the war. We have done enough of that on this blog for the last 5 years. The point is, The Democrats agreed to wait for the report to make a decision and they align themselves with a planned attack of the General on the Sunday Talk Shows to try and ambush any support a positive report may create.

Unbelievable!

Nice job Tim.

Right on, Mr. Dickinson! How dare that damn lefty liberal organization impugn the integrity of the man leading our battle against the dark-skinned peoples who own our oil!? It’s a good thing there are reasonable people like you who understand that you can never, ever, under any circumstances, criticize someone who wears a uniform.

Why is it such a dispicable act to state the obvious: that the general will toe the bush doctrine. That what he says will NOT be the actual truth, but a spin cycle. Sure, it’s a bit over the edge, but it’s not like MoveOn is a government oversight committee. They have the right to say anything they want, right hallzee? Telling them what they can and can’t say is a bit fascist, isn’t it?
The fact remiains that if we took a poll of ex-generals about their opinion of what to do with Iraq, we’d be OUT of there by now. If we keep taking advice from current generals, we’re going to be there forever. Take your pick. Do you want to bilk the treasury in order to nation-build in oil regions? Or, do you want to take the advice of generals who couldn’t take it anymore? Personally, I’ll take the opinion of the people who are retired and can now have an opinion for themselves.

from what i’ve seen and heard Petraeus has given a fair report…progress is being made, but it is by no means a cakewalk in iraq…so does it make him a bush stooge simply because he believes there are some signs of progress?

and yes six, moveon has the right to say whatever they want. whether its in good taste, or right for that matter, is another story

but you have to be careful with those who are retired…they A) are not privy to up to date info, and B) may have an axe to grind, retired generals are just like anyone else, some are liberal, some are conservative, etc. I would trust those who have combat experience as opposed to some desk jockey (i.e. Wesley Clark)

personally i think we should listen to Petraeus and the pentagon…something that wasnt done at the beginning of the war and responsible for some of the problems we face now

There were plenty of ways to say what that add did without resorting to name-calling. It just cheapens the whole debate and weakens moveon.org’s argument. Idiots.

As long as the same corruption is continuing unabated and unchallenged, then yes, he is a traitor. The worst kind. Just as every last one of the politicians and businessmen involved in the profiteering are traitors. They are murderous sick men that cannot be condemned enough for what they are doing. They are not simply traitors to america, but to humanity.

The ones addressing these problems(either by correcting the corruption within the war effort or those who are seeking to stop the war altogether) are the true patriots.

He could just not have seen all the evidence of corruption our government(military included) is sponsoring. Who knows, maybe he is really a good guy that just hasn’t seen all the evidence, testimony, research and documentary on how much this occupation is just a way to transfer taxpayer money to certain businesses and individuals.

Did Petraeus take an oath to support the Constitution Of The United States Of America? Or the fascists that have stolen two elections and currently occupy the White House with just as much legitimacy as the U.S. occupies Iraq?

TLC

Fascist, Fascist, Fascist.

That is the lib’s answer for everything. Just be honest and admit that the Dems don’t want to see any good come from Iraq.

And TLC, this has nothing to do with your sour grape, stolen election theory. Get over it!

I just went to the Moveon.org website and made a contribution.
Now the swiftboat is on the other foot!

I just went to the Moveon.org website and made a contribution.
Now the swiftboat is on the other foot!

I once helped organize a fund-raiser for MoveOn before the 2004 election, but I stopped supporting them after they started running ads full of personal insults and idiotic commentary. Opposing Bush and his disastrous war doesn’t mean we have to abandon civil discourse.

Liberals Liberals Liberals

That is the neocons’s answer for everything. Just be honest and admit that the neocons don’t want to hear any bad come from media.

See how grouping is bad Hal? Stop it, because not only does it not help us it also blinds you as well. The idea that anyone against a war is liberal is false. Truth isn’t found by using such tactics.

yea, we’ve seen so much good come out of iraq that those of us that can still think for ourselves don’t want to see anything good come out of Iraq. Why is it we can’t see that the surge reduced murders in bagdad of 80% compared to last years same month instead of the fact that most of baghdad has already been ethnically cleanse and the murders are no longer necessary.

While I understand the frustration at the administration and all it’s lackeys at their lies, misrepresentations, falsehoods, dissembling and obfuscation, I find it a bit disingenous to pre-villify the general. At least let him speak and try to sugarcoat the progress before he’s called out on his BS. Why put the cart in front of the horse? isn’t it counterproductive?

yea, we’ve seen so much good come out of iraq that those of us that can still think for ourselves don’t want to see anything good come out of Iraq. Why is it we can’t see that the surge reduced murders in bagdad of 80% compared to last years same month instead of the fact that most of baghdad has already been ethnically cleanse and the murders are no longer necessary.

While I understand the frustration at the administration and all it’s lackeys at their lies, misrepresentations, falsehoods, dissembling and obfuscation, I find it a bit disingenous to pre-villify the general. At least let him speak and try to sugarcoat the progress before he’s called out on his BS. Why put the cart in front of the horse? isn’t it counterproductive?

I’m with Brainspore…there’s a more dignified way to criticize the Administration and the GOP.

And, yeah, calling republicans ‘facsists’ is not only an over-simplification (of a very dangerous idea) it also alientates anyone who might be sympathetic to the liberal agenda. The Dems (myself included) stand to make great policy gains if they can unite around reasonable policies that everyone wants furthered (stopping global warming, energy reduction, healthcare, etc.)…but yammerin on about stolen elections and ‘facsist’ oil barrons sounds an awful-lot like the rhetoric of a left-handed Limbaugh.

Besides…what’s the worse case scenario for Dem chances in ‘08? An end (either in ‘victory’ or ‘defeat) to the war. It might happen. If so, what will our party be? Just a bunch of irrelevant whiners…

thanks for your insightful imput Tim. I’m sure MoveOn will love it! What would have happened if MoveOn had run a similar ad against Collin Powell after he gave his testimony to the UN? MoveOn would have been tarred and feathered…but they would have been right. You should read more Karen DeYoung. Might give you some more perspective….

Kudos to MoveOn-they said it Well and Wise and with Courage and Honesty….Too bad there is not more of that-including you…

Powell and McCain had a reputation and credibility until they played ball with Bush and his War for Money and Legacy Fiction…

If MoveOn had not come out with this ad would any of the Dems have pushed the credibility question? – Are they even now?

Patriotism is one thing and credibility is another. I agree that the attack on patriotism is unfounded and that it should be condemned. At the same time I can understand how MoveOn and apparently the majority of the country feel very much alone.

“Opposing Bush and his disastrous war doesn’t mean we have to abandon civil discourse.”

Amen.

How many more lives, how many more billions, how many more families crumbling does it take before “we need to be polite and dignified in disagreeing with the Big Lie and the Liars that Continue the Charade for Self-promotion, money, fame, power?

How many “around the corners”, “somewhere over the rainbows” do we need?

God Bless the World!

And God Bless People Who Question Authority.

Move On has facts behind their statemtents from credible sources, facts are hard to argue.
I agree this puppet for the Bush administration should be given a chance to speak first before making any judgements. Please stand-by while GW inserts his fist.

Thomas: You DO realize that many of today’s politician’s and lobbyists are yesterday’s soldiers and commanders, right? Petraeus will be holding a seat on the other side pretty soon. Then, I guess you’ll question his integrity, right?

Is MoveOn’s ad dumber than the blow job the writer gives Petreaus in the next article? No. Is Petreaus, like Colin Powell, a liar? Yes. Does that mean he betrayed us? Yes. So what’s wrong with saying it?

Perhaps an incestuous sounding name like Dickinson makes a person overly sensitive to insulting puns.

The point of advertising is to capture attention. The name of the ad, no matter how corny, does that and gets you to read the text.
Which is apparently where the Rolling Stone writer stopped. No where in there did I see anything that questioned the man’s “patriotism”, just that his facts don’t seem to match up with anyone else’s. Bad morning, Tim? m

Why is it okay to question the credibility and patriotism of a man like General Petraeus, a man who has dedicated his entire life to serving our country, but we’re wrong in questioning the credibility of “moveon.org”?

The democrats said it themselves: “good news from Iraq is bad news for the democratic party”. If that’s not treason, I don’t know what is.

“Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged.”
~ Abraham Lincoln

Think for yourselves, question authority, question the media.

True.

When will liberals understand??? By all means, criticize Patraeus’ message….but why go after him personally? Makes no sense….and now the GOP can take the spotlight off the failures in Iraq and focus on this “controversy.”

Word, I apologize for doubting you, this site DOES delete posts. Time for me to moveon, if you’ll pardon the pun. This site has its nerve criticizing THEM and then censoring posts. Good Luck.

Betray is a verb-it is a Description of someone who was “appointed” to Continue Misinformation for an administration who has misrepresented a “War” of Power Grabs, Corporate and Political Profiteering-while our soldiers are dying, the Prez is lying, our infra-structure and thousands and thousands of people are dying…

Yea, let’s “Soften our Criticism”-Petraeus knew what he was getting into, misrepresenting “facts” on such a Serious Matter as “War” is a Serious Crime…(He has Fallen “Right” into step with the rest of Bush lap-dogs who Were Respected but are Not Now-it was Pure Choice).

betray may not be the best word. But he is a wuss. Everyone that goes up to the camera in front of congress has the choice to sacrifice it all to inform the public what is going on. Petraeus was not going to do that. Wuss

The general is like any other employee, he’s beholden to his employers agenda and will if he wishes to remain employed.

Considering that the administration proposed taking over Iraq to other generals, who chose to either retire or refuse, before happening upon petreus makes one wonder what it was they were shopping for.
Unfortunatelly, most of our political and military structure believes that their allegiance is to the president rather than the people. Their loyalty brainwashing makes it possible for them to ‘fall on their sword’ if necessary when instructed to do so by their commander. Unfortunately, the part about not following illegal orders is not ever emphasized.
We only have to go back to Gnrl. Shinseki’s(if i remember his name correctly) testimony to congress to realize the pressure these guys are under. Instead of going with his gut and telling the congress exactly what he had learned by studying the situation for over a decade… that it would take about a half million troops and a decade to successfully carry out the Iraq invasion, he softpeddaled and said ’several hundred thousand’. He was quickly assaulted on all sides by the administration and the republican party and forced to retire for having told congress the truth. Knowing that, do you really think any other general will jeopardize his career just to tell the american people the truth? Maybe if the people where in control of things, but a military general must know this is not the case.

On a side note. Philipine ex-president Jose Estrada was sentenced to life in prison for basically taking bribes and profiteering. Mexicos president was convicted along similar lines sometimes back. Do you think the american people will ever demand their president be held accountable for misleading us to war and having his cronys empty the treasury and make us the global pariah? Would it not look better for us in the eyes of the world if we show them that not even the president and VP are above the law in this country?

Jed, until everyone realizes that no matter how ‘good’ a person the current general is (no matter what his name is) they’re not going to cross the president. They’re going to toe the line by deflecting everything towards “what we need to be successful, and the successes that are happening.” I don’t think anybody’s arguing with the general’s facts.
Analogy describing an army general:
If a player of a major league baseball team questions his manager, he either gets benched, fined, traded, or released. The player is the general and the manager is the president. It really is that fundamental, people. So, while we may disagree with everything that Congressional hearing was about, that is in no way questioning the patriotism, or ethics, or morals of Mr. Petraeus. We KNOW he’s just doing his job.

Petraus personally wrote the speech he delivered. He wrote exactly what his daddies Bush & Cheny wanted to hear in order to placate their rich wealthy Republican handlers & keepers. Typical Republican Spin…

Let them eat cake. i agree with some of your critisisims of Bush, but i dont see comparing Gen. Patreaus to the rest of the Bush rouge gallery.

Another Bush “appointee” with “I don’t know”, “I can’t remember”, and soon ballooning into, “I’ll take the fifth”.

Bring our troops home and stop the Bush circus performers from uttering any more false “projections”, “statements” and, “propaganda”. (Let’s just hope Cheney’s itchy war finger doesn’t incite/create an attack by Iran)…

The Country has had enough of fear and war mongering-the oil companies and weapons companies need to $cash out$-the war-profiteering needs to end.

Hey, six pack or three dozen!

“Just play along”, don’t rock the boat”.

The real heroes are the ones that Stand up to lies, don’t go along with the program, risk their career, risk their reputation, stand tall and stand out…

Playing it safe is becoming all too common and it is miring us in complacency, servitude to a dictatorship, suspended animation in a backwards twilight zone.

Yea, Petraeus should do exactly what the White House told him to do(Gates is a —-head who has also helped the cheat-in elections all over the world to Secure the Conservative Web).

Adm. Fallon had the guts, as do many Generals who called it what it is. And, Petraeus what he is a —kisser to Bush and the Regime.

Many of our Best Generals chose to Resign to Voice their distaste and objections to the Bush “War” policies…

Kennedy, King, Kennedy stood up-they gave their lives for representing a decent American government. We have Chicken—– Now.

The troops are Courageous, the administration is gutless and arrogant and Inept… They do not care how many lives lost, they care how high up they can —kiss their careers and profiteer off the disaster that follows.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$