It looks to me like we are stuck in a nebulous middle ground where neither big government nor small government is given a chance to prove itself. At least, in terms of this particular issue. If FEMA is indeed burdened by attempts to undermine it then perhaps we have not seen what either ideology is capable of yet. It looks like both sides are claiming the other is the problem when neither have yet been given the chance to try their method.

Mr. Dickinson:

The title of your article sums up your entire mis-understanding of government. “Trust in People or the Government?” What you should understand is that the government is composed of people just like any private organization is composed of people. So the real question is: which people do I trust?

You imply that government people are not “ordinary” people. You say that ordinary people are not equipped to handle some big tasks. Why not? Further, are government people somehow super-human? To even ask the question is laughable. With apologies to the bureaucrats and the few politicians who occassionally mean well and (even more rarely) do some good, we all know that the professions of politician and bureaucrat attract some of the worst type of people – lazy, corrupt and dishonest.

Your point is pretty much to say that if people were in charge who REALLY had faith in big government then things would be better. Or if we just gave them enough money… Indeed, these points are made whenever there is government failure. And because the money can be taken (taxed) rather than earned, we always throw good money at bad organizations or replace bad people with bad people of a different sort. Perhaps if you or your favorite politician were dictator it would be different. But forgive me if I’m highly skeptical.

Few people will admit that the system is the problem. I think that too many people thank the government for our current prosperity. The government would have nothing to do if it was unable to expropriate the production of hard working individuals.

Our country became great because the government left individuals alone more than any other in history. From extensively reading Ron Paul’s writings on the subject, I believe that he understands this.

I’m so thankful that we can discuss our different views without declaring crusades and jihads on each other. I expected the ad hominem attacks to take over by now. Read most previous threads and by the end, you have people parodying each other and making ridiculous attacks that don’t even address the issue being discussed. Props to all.

I don’t know how the Bush administration can be considered small government ideologues. That was Bush rhetoric while campaigning. He also said he was against nation building.

If any depts got smaller in his tenure it was simply to shift money to his other HUGE projects like the Dept of Homeland Security and Iraq War while still cutting taxes. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Size of govt has increased in total.

I don’t believe that he or any of the other RINOs (Republican In Name Only) actually believe in smaller government.

that’s funny, Tim made a specific post just to address the absurdities of a commenter and you avoid the issues completely and attack the messenger, the parties, the system… face it, this guy’s only purpose here is to distort, confuse and muddy the waters so no one can see the issues clearly. Obviously those republican campaign millions are being put to work doing what they know best. fling dirt.

What happened to the two-hundred some Ron Paul supporters? The debate is just getting good.

that one guy is right, and actually kind of proves the other point. the government is comprised of people, which makes the system flawed. you just can’t put 100% faith in people. the original poster is right in saying that ordinary people are good at heart and want to do whatever they can to help. but when we start rebuilding cities, they don’t have a say. it’s the people with millions who decide that, and we should already know that there is something fundamentally different about them.

are you really going to trust donald trump to rebuild your home and grocery store if he knows he can’t turn a profit?

Mr Dickinson,

New Orleans was under mandatory evacuation. The people that stayed their took there own life into their hands.

Do you agree or disagree?

***

New Orleans was built below sea level, it’s levies were built to withstand CAT3 hurricanes.

It was stated publically that if a CAT4 or CAT5 hurricane hit N.O. it would devastate the city.

This was all over the news prior to Katrina ever hitting New Orleans.

Do you agree that the majority of the people that stayed knew this?

“are you really going to trust donald trump to rebuild your home and grocery store if he knows he can’t turn a profit?”

Ah…yes. I would trust a private party to rebuild my local grocery store and provide for the demand a lot better than a government pod person.

Mr. Dickinson,

Thank you for your measured and rational reply. I suppose we shall agree to disagree–it seems we have come to the point where we agree on the evidence, but simply disagree on the interpretation. I respect your disagreement.

Dear Paul Patrol,
We have aired our beliefs, repeatedly (at Mr. Dickinson’s own invitation), and any further assertions of this blogger’s misdirection would be immature and childish. He understands what we are saying, he understands what happened with Katrina, but he has a different idea about how to solve the problem.

I would like to humbly suggest we leave him be. The Thermals just released a new single that is begging to be reviewed.

I think the root of the problem is much deeper than the amount of funding any particular agency has.. the problem is a systemic belief that the government will be around to help us.. it gives people a false sense of security believing there is a safety net, when there is none.

it is highly unlikely that individauls or private groups could put together a relief effort with the funding, manpower, equipment, technology and expereience that a govt agency like FEMA can provide. of course govt agencies tend to be far less efficient than they could and should be, but they are our best hope in situations like Katrina. that said, individuals and private charities can certainly provide lots of help. i would like to see the government do a better job of incorporating private money and labor into projects, so that they can be used more effectively.

If there is an entrepreneurial failure solving a problem (like rebuilding NO), another entrepreneur will step in to do it faster, better, and for less money.

If everything is controlled by government and there is a government failure – well you’re just shit out of luck.

That’s just one of the myriad of reason why the marketplace is better at solving problems than government.

watch the video on you tube called “what we choose to ignore” search by aravoth if you can’t find it

watch the video on you tube called “what we choose to ignore” search by aravoth if you can’t find it

It might change how you feel about FEMA

The logic still baffles me. The program didn’t work, so lets make it bigger. It makes no sense that anybody but the people of Loisiana should have been ready to handle this. Instead, we’ve turned into a nation of people who apparently were so dependent on the government that they didn’t have enough common sense to get out when a hurricane approached. Ask the people of New Orleans if they think FEMA should get bugger budgets – I dare you.
And there’s no evidence that any administration could have / would have handled this any more efficiently than the Bush Administraton did.

Face it. There are simply no Federal Programs that work efficiently. Period. Sure, Grandma gets her medicine but if that program was in private hands, we could sue them over and over for the amount of money we are losing to the fraud that is in the system. Same with Social Security. It makes no sense to depend on the government. If a private company had squandered our investments like the government did, people would be in jail.

I’ve had enough of this incessent “but we can fix it” whining. The system is broken and I want an opt-out clause.

Big gubmint hasn’t been given a chance to prove itself?!?!?!??

Medicare, Medicaid, Social Insecurity, the disastrously failed “wars” on poverty and (some) drugs, bloated highway and farm subsidies, gubmint schools, HUD, FEMA, FDA, and the rest of the Alphabet Soup Mafia haven’t been given a chance to prove themselves?!?!?!?!????

GAFB !!!

“But believing in people isn’t inconsistent with believing in government, and in particular in government’s role as a protector of last resort.”

Government told people to go to the Superdome and stay there.
(then did not provide food,water nor protection for days)

” There are things ordinary people aren’t equipped to do. Like model Class 5 hurricane damage. ”

Ordinary people don’t know how the
telephone networks operate or the internet operates. According to your argument both should be run by government experts????

“And pluck people off of their rooftops with helicopters. And reinforce levees.”

whenever there is a flood you see whole towns volunteering to reinforce levees, and being a good helicopter pilot is the only skill necessary for the rooftop rescue.
Neither require government “expertise”

” And implement evacuation plans. ”
Again, those government plans SUCKED or we would not be talking about Katrina.

“And rebuild a city flattened by weather of mass destruction.”

Last I saw most of New Orleans has NOT BEEN REBUILT. The richer areas
(typically on higher ground and thus less damaged) have been.

And now I can give you a good reason using your own argument as to why centralization is bad. You claim it was Bush’s fault by gutting FEMA. Fine. If FEMA stays a centralized organization what is to stop AN EVEN BIGGER TWIT from doing the same or worse once it is rebuilt? Nothing!

However with many smaller (non-federal) organizations such an idiot would have a minimal effect, as the others could and would pick up the slack.

So, you are saying that the programs only work if we have a good President, so basically we’re funding an expensive crap shoot?

Another thing about Katrina. It seemed to me, at the time, that using helicopters to rescue all those people was actually wasting a lot of time. Why is it thousands of self-inflating rafts, or something like it, weren’t airdropped to all those people that were ‘near’ escape points? Somebody falls off a cruiseliner, they don’t call in a helicopter to get him right away. They throw him a lifeline. Just a thought. But, then again, I’m sure Exxon/Mobil appreciated all the fuel burning……

Wait a second. You are on the one hand saying that FEMA sucked after Katrina because it was reduced in size and you attempt to equate this notion with Ron Paul’s ideals. Then you cite one statement from one former big government senator who says:

“FEMA’s current problems essentially began with the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, which demoted FEMA from cabinet-level status and reduced it to one of 22 organizations under the umbrella of the Secretary of Homeland Security.”

Ya, I’m calling bullshit here. The big government, big spending former democrat you cite as some kind of authority for your ludicrous proposition doesn’t even agree with you. How the hell is one giant beaurocratic nightmare of an agency steping on the toes of another giant beaurocratic nightmare of an agency in any way similar to SMALL government ideals?

/fail

Nancyboy: 1, OriginalPoster: 0.

seriously that one comment owns all. Fuhgettaboutit.

maybe government isn’t the problem. maybe the government is full of incompetent individuals. maybe it’s not the concept of government that’s wrong. it could be that it’s just not full of people who know what in the fuck they’re doing.

Why is FEMA necessary when thousands of private institutions and the states themselves would be perfectly capable of responding quickly to disasters if they weren’t told by the federal government that FEMA would be able to handle it?

If we need helicopters, i guess the national guard might be available to carry the load alongside private individuals… oh wait… they are in Iraq.

We need to bring our military home and make them available to help defend and protect our country against outside forces whether they be natural or human.

Man, I remember when the Rolling Stone WASN’T a tool of the state. Guess I shouldn’t have given up snortin’.

“There are things ordinary people aren’t equipped to do. Like model Class 5 hurricane damage. And pluck people off of their rooftops with helicopters. And reinforce levees. And implement evacuation plans. And rebuild a city flattened by weather of mass destruction.”

Really? And which superheroes are you calling to do these things? Do you really believe that there are NO researchers at LSU, or indeed anywhere on the Gulf Coast, that can model a class 5 hurricane? Do you really believe that all the TV news crews couldn’t use their own helicopters to rescue people, instead of filming them? That the government provides some kind of super-person to fix levees, instead of local contractors and engineers? You are a complete idiot who has completely drunk the Kool-aid that the government is trying to force down our throats. The only reason government ever works, is because good people make it work. The same people who would make things work if the government was not involved. Government cannot solve our problems, only we can.

If a company is given a no bid contract which cannot be competed for between many private companies, then that only helps the argument for less government. Of course privatization will fail if the government can get away with favoritism. Get real competition and let the people choose the best to get the job done.

I’VE NOTICED THAT SOMETIMES THOSE WHO RUN THE GOVERNMENT, “BOTH PARTIES”, TEND TO FORGET THAT WE ALL NEED TO REMEMBER WE SHOULD BE ” AMERICANS ” BEFORE WE ARE DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICANS..

NEVER FORGET, THE BASIS OF AMERICAN POLITICS IS,,

TELLING THE OTHERGUY HOW FULL OF CRAP HE IS, AND TRYING LIKE HELL TO COVER UP THE FACT THAT YOUR JUST AS FULL OF CRAP AS THE OTHER GUY IS, IF NOT MORE..

LET’S BE AMERICANS FIRST!!

DELTAWILDMAN:

America became great based upon a persistent individualism, not on this collectivist (we are all Americans) bull crap! Remember, the colonies seceded from England as 13 SOVEREIGN nations. It was the Federalists who suceeded in forming one nation with (what was intended to be) a limited central government.

You probably remember from public school that there were such people as Anti-Federalists. You may even remember that history is actually kind of respectful of their writings. But if you’re the average American, you probably don’t remember what the hell they were worried about.

Do some studying and ask yourself whether the Anti-Federalists were maybe a little right.

SPEAKING OF FEDERAL AUTHORITY AND STATE AUTHORITY,, EVER WONDER WHAT THE CIVIL WAR WAS FOUGHT OVER??
SLAVERY??
OH COME ON,, YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THAT!!
THE PRICE OF COTTON BEFORE AND AFTER THE CIVIL WAR WAS WHATEVER THE MARKET DEMANDED, NOT WHAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WANTED IT TO BE.. L
LOOK IT UP,, GOOD READING WHEN YOU READ HISTORY..

Mr Delta, you didn’t even change his argument, you just made up something completely unrelated and knocked it down. Nice, but pointless.

Blah blah,

Bush cut the funding that could have saved American lives.

Blah blah….

If you’re intelligent, you’ll move to a Republican district when a con is in office. If a Dem is in office, the American dream is all yours…

Again, anyone who doubts that Bush is the worst president ever should be sent to a remedial school in Guantanamo.

BIGGEST STRAW MAN:

WHAT WAS HIS ARGUMENT??
COULD IT BE WE ALL NEED TO BE DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS BEFORE WE’RE AMERICANS??
IF SO, THEN YES,, I MISSED THE POINT..
I SUPPOSE IF I HAVE TO BE POLITICAL FIRST,, WELL I SHALL

LET’S FINNISH THIS WAR ON TERROR AND STOP GLOBAL WARMING IN ONE ACTION..
AL GORE SAYS GLOBAL WARMING IS CAUSED BY HUMANS..
AND MOST IF NOT ALL OF THE TERRORISTS THAT ARE A DANGER TO AMERICA ARE MUSLIMS…
HOW MANY MUSLIMS ARE ON THE PLANET, AND BY ” CULLING THE HERD ” SO TO SPEAK, WILL THAT TAKE CARE OF OUR GLOBAL WARMING PROBLEM??

IS THAT POLITICAL ENOUGH??

SOMETHING I HAVE NOTICED,
liberals ARE MAD AT GEORGE W. BUSH, BECAUSE HE’S GEORGE W. BUSH..
AND CONSERVATIVES ARE MAD AT BUSH BECAUSE HE’S TOO DAMN LIBERAL IN A LOT OF THE THINGS HE’S DONE,
(a) HE GREW GOVERNMENT, ( NOT SOMETHING A CONSERVATIVE SOULD DO, WOULDN’T YOU SAY?
(b) SAY WHAT YOU WILL, BUT GEORGE W. BUSH HAS TRIED TO WORK WITH THE DEMOCRATS ON THINGS.. i.e. THAT AMNESTY THING..
(c) I WOULDN’T CALL GEORGE W. BUSH A CONSERVATIVE, JUST LIKE I WOULDN’T CALL HIS FATHER A CONSERVATIVE.

SO I ASK THIS QUESTION,
WHY ARE SO MANY DEMOCRATS MAD AT GEORGE W. BUSH??
I SEEM TO REMEMBER BACK BEFORE THE 2006 ELECTION, SOME DEMOCRATS, INCLUDING HARRY REID, SAID WE NEEDED TO SEND MORE SOLDERS TO IRAQ IN THE FIRST PLACE..
ANYONE KNOW WHAT A ” SURGE IS “??

WOULD OUR TROOPS BE IN IRAQ IF THE MAJORITY OF CONGRESS VOTED AGAINST SENDING THEM THERE?? AND IF BUSH USED FAULTY INTEL TO ” LIE US INTO A WAR “, WOULD THAT FAULTY INTEL HAVE CAME FROM THE ( CIA )??
IF SO, WHO WAS IN CHARGE OF THE ( CIA ) AND WHO APPOINTED THAT PERSON TO THAT POSITION??
AMD DURING THE PRESIDENTAL DEBATES WITH AL GORE AND GEORGE W. BUSH, SHOULDN’T WE REMEMBER WHAT AL GORE SAID HE, AS PRESIDENT, WOULD DO IF SADDAM DID CERTIN THINGS??

HISTORY IS A WONDERFUL TOOL, LET’S TRY AND MAKE THE BEST OF IT..
BEFORE WE START PIONTING OUR FINGERS AT SOMEONE, WE MIGHT NEED TO REMEMBE WHAT THE OTHER GUY SAID HE WOULD DO IN THE SAME POSITION..

I THINK FOLKS ARE STILL MAD ABOUT FLORIDA..
REMEMBER THIS,, FLORIDA WOULD NOT HAVE MATTERED, IF AL GORE HAD CARRIED HIS HOME STATE OF TENNESSEE..

Delta, nice work justifying Bush’s actions. Good stuff on the ‘what if’ card you played about if Gore was president. All that shit doesn’t matter. What are the Dems mad about? I have no idea. I’m a liberal and I’ll tell you EXACTLY what I’m mad at.
1. I’m mad that this administration made up reasons to invade Iraq. There’s literally zero difference between what we’re doing now in Iraq and what Hussein did in Kuwait.
2. I’m pissed off that this administration exploited 9/11 (or, maybe they were a part of it) and bailed on Afghanistan. Has everybody forgotten that??
3. I’m exhausted by all the lies.
4. I’m exhausted by all the false, fraudulent rhetoric based on exploited patriotism. Just remember how the Repuklicans reacted when Clinton JOINED NATO forced in Somalia.
5. I’m completely sick of cronyism. It’s destroying the fabric of American ideology. It’s reinforcing ’slave’ mentality by outsourcing jobs to countries that we can take advantage of.
6. I’m tired of Dick Cheney and his neo-naziism. This guy’s a freak. Here’s a question for you Delta: How many countries on this planted have leaders who you think are nuts? If you name even one, then doesn’t it make fundamental sense that it’s possible for America to have a wacko leader? When did America become immune to craziness?
7. I abhor Bush’s treatment of the judicial system. How do you think the Repuklicans will feel if a Democrat wins office and uses all this new power? The neocons have planted the seeds for a revolution, and it seems as if they want one. They’ve also stoked the fire of disdain other countries have for us.
Anything else Delta Crazy Wackjob?

No, many democrats, republicans and independents hate bush because he is a traitor and a coward.
A traitor in that he ignored the advice of generals that had studied the situation in Iraq for decades and decided to foolishly try to take and hold a country of 26million pissed off arabs with only 150 thousand troops rather than the half million needed.
A traitor in that time and again he has lied to the american public in his assessment of the situation in iraq.
A traitor in that his political appointees have distorted science to help out his business partners to the detriment of the people and lands of the US.
A traitor in that he overstepped the constitution and everyting the constitution and the United States stands for in suspending liberties and protections afforded to all peoples by said document.
A traitor, who with support of his political party, passed laws to dilute the very document he swore to uphold.
A coward in failing to make the hard political choice to start the draft rather than forcing the few volunteers we have to endure overextended tours of duty while at the same time telling us how important is is that we win.
A coward in that instead of communicating with his opponents he preffers to alienate them.
Na, we don’t hate him merely because he’s bush, we hate him for his demonstrated incompetence, his ineptitude in diplomacy and outright lack of empathy for his fellow human beings as evidenced by his response to Katrina and subsequent rebuilding with defacto slave labor imported from foreign countries.
we hate him because we see the damage he has caused this nation in the world stage as well as the economic hardship he has placed so many in while helping his cronys that don’t need it. Because he has proven himself and his party to be no more than a bunch of criminals that have no idea what the true tenets of american society are.

We can only hope that some brave, patriotic american returning from Iraq and finding himself abandoned by his government and suffering from PTSD will kill him and his ‘puppet master’ cheney.

And another thing…….the only conservatives that are mad at him are the ones who realize that supporting this guy isn’t going to get them any votes. One thing you have to remember about conservative politicians: they rarely have a thought for themselves. The defections of support for this foreign policy, and saying things need to change, of late is proof of that. The democrats have been saying it since the onset, but it’s only a big deal when one of Bush’s fellow nutjobs says it. People may say the Democrats don’t get anything done because they’re trying to please too many different people, but it’s better than drinking the kool-aid of a criminal regime. And, please, don’t cite Clinton’s ‘crime’ in the oval office. Nobody died from it.

Trust should be equal, between the government and the people, sadly it cannot be. The war, the war on drugs and the fake economy make it impossible to trust the government.

“dan”
You said it best.
We need a government to be doing the job they are paid to do and not bowing to the interests of corporate.
Paul is Wrong and when crisis come, Trump or any other “Private Concern/Business” Cannot be relied upon…
We need to bring back an effective government that will be policed, comply with the will and needs of the American people.
Tax cuts have been bleeding the infra-structure dry along with Misappropriation of Funds all engineered by Bush and his administration of greed and lust to control our country into a fascist failure…
Disasters like Katrina and 9/11 do require a government responsible and large enough to meet gigantic needs(FEMA worked well under Clinton)…
The programs Roosevelt initiated pulled our country out of a horrible depression and a massive global war…
Privatization is a cleaned-up word for Profits Above Everything-it has given the insurance/pharmaceutical/oil companies carte blanche to price goug us to oblivion-It Does Not Work…A Minority are profiteering off the needs of a Nation…Privatization and Deregulation are dividing, neglecting the needs of Americans and pandering to the wealthy few…
Allowing the companies to Dictate our country’s direction has been abysmal, defeatist, disproportionate, disastrous-we are back in the thirties and it was a very imbalanced and horrendously unfair “society”then and we are almost Regressed into it all over again-ask your grandparents and greatgrandparents how bad it was-we are heading for a worse fall…

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The only better government that small government is almost-non-existant government. Maybe Tom wants government to wipe his rear end, but most people hate the government, logically so.

The only part of government that Tom hates is the military. Social boondogles are just fine for him!

If Ron Paul is suggesting getting rid of FEMA, I think he’s wrong. However, the Dept of Homeland Security was not only created by fools based on foolish ideas, its name should scare the crap out of you.
But RP as president won’t be able to overturn many of the things he’d like to because he respects the Constitution and the value of working with Congress as the voice of the people. He has demonstrated honor, so he won’t ignore the rule of law and run roughshod.
So, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. You have to pick the best of the bunch and that means someone that will respect the rule of law (not consulting with their attorney) and respect individual liberty (regardless of race or creed).
So while I don’t agree with everything Paul espouses, I do agree with him more than the others and so I changed my party affiliation to vote for him.