“and a decent into irrelevance by Gravel.”

descent! not decent… he is descending.

Honestly, I was expecting a little more fireworks between the 8 of them. Perhaps allowing Gravel a few more minutes of airtime would turn up the heat on the rest-but then again it’s partially his fault for turning into a wallflower.

Oh, and did Bill Richardson mention that he is the former governor of New Mexico? I didn’t notice…

You Go Joe Biden!!

Obama won the debate. Kucinich, Gravel and Richardson did well. Biden showed some emotion, and scored on Dafur. Hillary was far from winning. Gravel scored when he reminded them that they in congress could have done better.

i’ve began to believe that gen. patreus would best serve his nation right back here. ergo the thought process would be lifted from the shoulders of the electorate…kinda like argentina and other places.

why? the media has already done that and without any bloodshed… so to speak.

I didn’t see the debate but from what I heard Hillary pulled a Guilliani by invoking that she was “from New York” when 9/11 happened. This hurts her in my eyes.

I liked that Richardson made a point of addressing education. He seems to be the only one who has not forgot that only having a well-educated citizen base can ensure America’s long-term prosperity.

Edwards tackled domestic issues in a clearly defined way and, pointed out the weaknesses in the other two top-tiered candidates.

Richardson did not do well for himself and, seemed to be more intent on his political accomplishments but did not translate them into addressing issues of important to voters Now.

Hillary seems to be stuck in the past with 9/11 and lame excuses for signing on to Bush’s phony war mandate in 2003-we know where that got us!( Makes one dread the Bush/Republican attempt to villify Iran and come up with flakey reasons to attack it, next).

Edwards and Obama gave us some real issues and tangible ways to solve them…

From the blog: “artful job deflecting tough questions without seeming evasive”, “blanket refusal to answer hypothetical questions worked wonders”…are you *KIDDING*? How can you be impressed by this? “Oh, Hillary’s great because she can duck tough questions like none other!” Why don’t we just nominate Ari Fleischer?

In my mind, Bill Richardson is the only serious candidate (except for Kucinich, whom I’d vote for in an instant if he had a chance of winning). The others are reading off the prompter. When it comes to the gang of television actors running for President, the only thing that Obama does better is the literary quality of his speech. BFD, how about some new ideas.

I don’t like Hillary, at all, policy wise but she did an incredible job at presenting her stances adn what type of President she would be (if you like that sorta thing).

I thought Obama, for the first time, began to embody the dream of Camelot that’s inherently tied to his possible success. When he gave Edwards the smack down, I peed myself a little.

And Richardson was Richardson, the best candidate up there (experience wise) but still a little rough at the edges. He’ll get my vote in the primary, but he seems like the ultimate VP candidate.

Biden proved he can and should be either Sec. Defense or Sec. State in the new administration.

Edwards was better than ever but still not good enough. He picked the wrong fight with Obama and Hillary and they showed him where to shove it…

Everyone should respond to Kucinich by saying…’You’re 100% right, Dennis, but that’s not gonna happen’. He’s the soul of the Democratic party and I hope, whomever wins, has the guts to get that Department of Peace going and appoints him its Secretary.

Edwards can talk easily about two Americas because he owns at least one of them.

Inherited money? … you mean like Senators Kennedy and Jay Rockefeller and liberal yuppie trustafarians?

Good hospitals? Not if ambulance chasing lawyers like “Haircut 400″ keep suing them for every honest error.

A one term Senator, off shore hedge fund manager and ambulance chaser is absolutely not electable. If he were Republican he’d be labelled “worse than Bush”.

I mean “current governor of New Mexico”…

The Republican debate of June 4th was superb. Unlike the Democrats, the Republicans actually speak their minds.
Hillary, Edwards, and Obama look like children compared to the Republican field. From an intellectual standpoint, the
Republicans far out do the “tripple failure” that is Hillary, Edwards, Obama.

Yeah, the Republicans were brilliant. One of them described Bush as “liberal” while another three said they did not believe in evolution. And that they spent almost as much time talking about their religious beliefs as they did the war in Iraq. And you wonder why the rest of the world thinks we’re a country full of loonies.

The Dems spent a great deal of time boasting of their religious bonafides the other night, too.

Sure, Christians are evil, the cause of every imagined ill … unless they vote Democratic which one third already do.

How dare Christians have strong beliefs? Al Gore’s self-serving moral certainty complete with commandments for how we all MUST lead our lives (Hint: It’s not the way he actually lives) are just as noxious as the worst Bible thumper.

Ambulance Chaser…what gives, man? Were you beaten by a Democrat when little? No need for that sorta invective…D’s may be too lovey-dovey, but you can’t argue that the GOP candidates aren’t crazy…when a Baptist minister has the most reasonable defense of evolution and Gulianni is considered a possible contender–even if he is clearly insane–lay off. Stick to the facts, Jack.

Edwards does seem pretty soft to me…like Carter-lite. And he may be the bobble-head saying things every Dem wants to hear (myself included) but there’s no way he’ll win the general, unless he’s running against Tancredo (Carter could beat Tancredo).

I AM sticking to facts. You have some proof of Giulianai’s “insanity”?

Some libs rely way too often on sweeping generalizations and emotion. I have nothing personal against libs/Dems, unlike some people on these boards who only see good and evil, black and white. We merely disagree.

I’m an agnostic, former hard left lib, altho many of my friends still are. We’re able to have calm, intelligent back and forths. This is the internet, I don’t expect the same here. I’d hope the authors could do the same and on occasion they do. I miss PJ O’Rourke.

Your rhetoric about Christians, the alleged Democratic prejudices against Christians, and Al Gore all smack of hyperbole and a desire to start a fight.

Facts are that Evolution is endorsed by 95% of scientists, while nearly that many believe global warming to not only be real, but to be a significant threat to our lives, livliehoods, and habitats. The need to maintain unbiased balance in any argument is important, unless the other side is so completely and obviously wrong.

It is true that Dems shouldn’t waste their time with the Christian Right…when a wise man argues with fools, from a distance there’s no difference between the two.

That being said, the Christian Right is so vocal and powerful that is nearly impossible not to conflate all believers with that incredibly visible few. Christianity’s been rebranded as a radical religion by these folks…any Christian who has a problem with that should probably look to censor their own.

Gulliani’s mental health problems are well documented…start with youtube.com and go from there. A recent article in Vanity Fair speaks to his issues…the antideppressants, his family feuds, his strange fascination with cross dressing, his repulsion/emmulation of the mafia, his racist approach to police enforcement and his incredible megalomania. One alone is a ‘quirk’. All combined is a basket case.

I read that VF hatchet job. So, political disagreements are evidence of mental illness? That’s what Stalin & Mao claimed about their political opponents. Is this what you want? Family feuds and antidepressants are, sadly, a common American trait and hardly a symptom of mental illness. Reefer madnesss type overstatements and leaps of faith defeat your own points.

Challenging your or anyones’s unproven ASSERTIONS (as opposed to a fact) has nothing to do with
desiring a fight. YOU are the one who seems to have a chip on your shoulder that I don’t accept your or the author’s unsubstantiated claims.

“The Christian Right is so vocal and powerful that is nearly impossible not to conflate all believers with that incredibly visible few.”

By that rationale, one can conclude that a vocal subset of ANY group represents ALL members. In another context, that’s how racists think. It’s hardly “imposssible” not to label every member of one group based on a vocal handful. It requires a little dispassionate thought and less fear.

Some Dems fear Christians like racists feared blacks. Irrational fear? THAT’S mental illness.

I read that VF hatchet job on Giuliani. A liberal magazine doesn’t like Rudy. Yawn, nothing new there.

Are political disagreements evidence of mental illness? That’s what Stalin & Mao claimed about their political opponents. Is this what you want? Family feuds and antidepressants are, sadly, a common American trait and hardly a symptom of mental illness. Reefer madness type overstatements that require massive leaps of faith defeat your own points.

Challenging your or anyone’s unproven ASSERTIONS has nothing to do with desiring a fight. YOU are the one who seems to have a chip on your shoulder that I don’t accept your unsubstantiated claims.

“The Christian Right is so vocal and powerful that is nearly impossible not to conflate all believers with that incredibly visible few.”

By that rationale, one can conclude that a vocal subset of ANY group represents ALL members. In another context, that’s how racists think. It’s hardly “imposssible” not to label every member of one group based on a vocal handful. It requires a little dispassionate thought and less fear.

Some Dems fear Christians (unless they’re inclined to switch parties to avoid voting for a mentally unbalanced serial divorcer like Giuliani)like racists feared blacks. Irrational fear? THAT’S mental illness.

Yr identification of racists with those who are opposed to Christian hegemony is absurd. Is that what all those lynchings were about? Cos black men were out on the corner yelling ‘kill whitey’? And yet, you turn on the telly and see Christians threatening to kill abortion doctors, threatening homosexuals with hell, claiming they can destroy the planet as they will soon be in the palace of Heaven & on.

“By that rationale, one can conclude that a vocal subset of ANY group represents ALL members”. That’s called the media, its representation. If Christians don’t want to be RE-presented to the world in such a manner, they better get a new PR agency.

I don’t fear Christians…and that’s the whole point. Evangelicism is ludicrous and has no place in the public forum. AS far as Rudy goes…you tell me that that’t the type of fella you want with his finger on the button and I’ll pat you on the back and leave it at that. Mental unstability is quite American, so is idiocy, malnutrition, and obesity. By that line of thinking, Rush Limbaugh is a perfect valid candidate.

Oh, and 50% of Americans can’t locate the USA on a map…we elected somebody like that (twice) and look how good we’re doing!

You continue painting with a mile wide brush. Too bad for Christians like Bono. It’s unfortunate that many like yourself mindlessly accept that however the media decide to portray any group is accurate. I guess the Irish, blacks and women in 19th century America should have hired a new PR agency. Brilliant.

The fact that many Americans can’t find their way around the map is more likely the result of public schools run by hardcore Dem teachers unions.

We both see America traits that can stand improvement just like other countries can. Unlike you, I also see POSITIVE American traits – higher rate of charitable giving that anywhere in the world, a country that creates music the whole world loves, a military that has helped save the world etc.

I used to think that way and was generally depressed. Good luck thinking this all through some day.

The Gop came out of the debates with momentum, Rudy, mC cain and Huckabe left a good impression. Ron Paul is a rebublican. Its good that Obama got a boost The Democrats need a competiter for Hillary. Obama 08

“ACFE”

The Kennedy’s-From John to Robert to Edward, had/have been champions for the poor, those who suffer/suffered physically and mentally.

Hospitals are in trouble(As is the whole health care system)because the Insurance Companies have been raising their prices on consumers without Regulation, it has upset the balance in Costs everywhere in the medical profession, tax cuts have caused trauma centers to close down, hospitals are being closed down, nursing and medical staffs are being Downsized and, lawsuits are not a dot as to signifacant problems draining our health care system(phlebotomy is not the only way to drain a vein)…

Sorry, ACFE, to burst your “lawsuit bubble”… Regulate the Insurance Companies that are so cozy with the present White House administration and, stop the Perpetual Tax Cut Boy(GWB)and, you will start raising standards of medical care and promote jobs that are not of the WalMart ilk…

All of the Republican candidates failure to address the illegitimacy of the “war in Iraq”, the horrible chaos that is growing worse by the day thanks to Bush and his war-mongering, profiteering compadres, is proof of Insanity(Big-Time)in Republicanville…(Ron Paul being the only exception-reality reared its ugly head, when he spoke)…

The Republican Candidates motto-
“Ignorance is Bliss”…

At least he caught up with most of the Demos(candidates)…Too bad the rest of the pack (Republican “candidates”) are living in Looney Toon Land…

No real “fireworks” in the “Conservatives Debates” except for Paul…

Cake Hole:

You may not like the war (spare me your crocodile tears about the Iraqi people)but it is NOT illegitimate House and Senate both approved, there are UN resolutions authorizing as well. Also, you appear to equally uninformed on Ron Paul’s OTHER positions – anti abortion, pro ANWR drilling, 76@ Christian Coalition approval rating etc.

Kennedy, Rockefeller and Edwards play at being champions of the poor with GOVERNMENT money and never their own personal fortunes. ANYONE can be a champion of the poor with OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY. That’s not charity.

Sorry if you work at Wal Mart, I’m surrounded with booming biotech, software and other companies who pay great.

I could also go into how regulations choke businesses but you’d only fling more grossly uninformed RHETORIC. Try facts … much more persuasive.

Teddy Kennedy is no champion of anyone … except perhaps to the liquor industry.

Ahh, Ambulance, its good to see you met Cake…I was going to introduce the two of you but I see there’s no need.

Y’all live in equal and opposite alternate realities where the world’d be great, if only for those that disagree with you. HAve at it. May you finally decimate truth in an all out war over righteousness.

ah, I see you’ve learned about the extreme ends of the people posting on these boards.
Welcome, it’s good to see that there are still some moderate voices willing to speak and perhaps discuss issues in a rational manner to contrast these extremists that try to sway their fellow humans with emotional rhetoric rather than reason and fact. we tend to fall into their pattern sometimes until we learn to ignore them and let them fulfill their desire for conflict elsewhere… or they change their moniker.

You do realize that claiming only YOU are the moderate one is quite subjective.

If I’m George will, I can claim I’m a moderate Conservative (compared to Ann Coulter) but people like Cake might still see me as Hitler Lite. Conversely you may claim to be a moderate but from my Libertarian perspective some of your posts seem to be more than slightly left of center (government solutions for lots of things.

As a former leftie, I see both sides of issues. I never post unsubstantiated assertions or accept opinions as fact like my alleged counterpart. If you see me as Far Right, that says much about your views and also what you believe constitutes a moderate. I’ve seen “What” post rationally on several occasions. “Jed C” often posts like Cake Redux.

wtw, did you say ‘only YOU are the moderate’?

I get a feeling the child is either missreading again, has a problem with reading comprehension you know, or he’s back to dissembling.

I find it ridiculously funny that he describes himself as agnostic when he knows full well he’s and atheist, but he can’t say that because it conflicts with his conservative views.

this guy couldn’t see both sides of an issue if he had eyes like an iguana. He’ll tell you he’s fair and balanced and in the same sentence skew what you said and distorts the facts. Think of all the dirty tactics the extreme right wing uses to stiffle debate and turn it to a personal fight, and you have his modis operandi down. Won’t take long before he finds something you say offensive… oh wait, already did.

yo Jed, project much? You appear to be able to read minds. You’ve yet to rebut a point. You either change the subject or … well you know….

Words mean things. I don’t have to “skew” many of your overwrought statements. Rebutting a false assertion is hardly “distorting” what you want to call facts.

Judging from your posts, you cling to hackneyed caricatures of some imagined monolithic conservativism. Do you actually know any? I guess you’re fair and balanced and I’m not.

The idea I might be only a fiscal conservative seems lost on you. At least, ideas lost on you have lots thousands of other ideas lost on you for company.

When I’m accused of being the ideological opposite of a ranter like Cake, I can infer the observer making the statement is claiming middle of the road (moderate status). Can you follow that simple statement? What are you? 12?

that’s hillarious… I guess if you think it, it must be so… IN YOU OWN IMAGINATION!!

—You appear to be able to read minds.

—Kennedy, Rockefeller and Edwards play at being champions of the poor with GOVERNMENT money and never their own personal fortunes.

Imagination working overtime again or are you actually reading their minds? All those have established foundations (cept maybe edwards) to help the poor with their money and talents, as well as demanding goverment use our money to help the majority rather than a few wealthy people and corporations that really don’t need any help.

—Rebutting a false assertion is hardly “distorting” what you want to call facts

are these your ‘facts’?
—Sure, Christians are evil, the cause of every imagined ill … unless they vote Democratic which one third already do.

—The fact that many Americans can’t find their way around the map is more likely the result of public schools run by hardcore Dem teachers unions.

you can have the best schools in the world, but if people arent motivated to learn they won’t… regardless of who’s running them. many people from modest means have succeeded because they made an effort and understood the importance of an education, it is a personal choice and has nothing to do with the political affiliation of the staff(extreme poverty being an exception). THen again, since teachers are so poorly paid you must ASSUME they are dems.
Is your use of sarcasm not an attempt to distort an oppossing pointof view? Or is that mind reading working against you?

—-Some Dems fear Christians (unless they’re inclined to switch parties to avoid voting for a mentally unbalanced serial divorcer like Giuliani)like racists feared blacks.

There’s no fear of christians, in fact they are well represented in the democratic party and even more so in the ranks of the independent. A more truthfull breed of christians in fact. What is feared, and we should all be concerned about, are those that use religion to further their political agenda. You know, those that say they are for helping the ‘least among us’ and then turn around and make major cuts in social programs for the poor in order to pay for tax breaks for the rich. Or those that say the have God’s creation to defend and then give major polluters incentive to pollute more for the sake of profit.
Another interesting tactic being used by the radical forces is to tie in two unrelated issues to illicit an emotional response.

—Good hospitals? Not if ambulance chasing lawyers like “Haircut 400″ keep suing them for every honest error.

Edwards made his wealth suing the tobacco companies, I hardly think they made an honest error.
Doctors have been found negligent in removing the wrong limb in surgery, is that an honest error?

Grow up kid, realize that the way you think changes how the world appears. Since you see everything as negative and contentious, I’d hate to see what spins in that mind of yours.

Rather than respond to YOUR novel sized response, (Do you have a life beyond this board?)let me say that you rely a helluva lot on anecdotal evidence to attempt to prove points. Odd, since you tend to make sweeping generalizations the rest of the time.

I should have said rich Dems use their own money disproportionately less to using government money to help the poor. Yes they use their own money, Foundations are, after all, a huge tax write-off. My bad.

Here’s an incorrect fact of yours: John Edwards did not make his bones suing tobacco but as a malpractice lawyer.

I concede that I may get a fact wrong sometimes, who doesn’t? Can you, or shall anyone who reads your ever lengthening posts just assume you have a proclivity for getting it ALL wrong.

I eagerly await your 5000 word response.

Here’s “Short and Sweet(”WTW”, & for ‘ya, “ACFE”-Anyone that has an ounce of belief, compassion, excuses for Bush and his F-grade administration, deserves to spend forever listening to their lies and excuses… Give us all a break-Reality is tough but it is Necessary…

I may know quite a bit about the medical world and I know You Spout Rhetoric and Republican Myths-not facts…

The only thing you’re selling is your soul…

I have a good life-but it is Not because of anything the RepubliCons have done-I look to a higher source, thanks…(Politics are a must to understand(maybe when you come out of the haze)!

Maybe you need to Catch-Up-History, and the Present seem to have alluded you-left you Way Behind…Somewhere in Limbo-Land…