McCain who has no chance of getting the nomination goes after Romney who has little chance. Won’t matter in the long run, since the “reform bill” will be history in a month.

Can’t wait to see the Dems blow up even more when the anti-war Left realizes they’ve been strung along by Pelosi, Reid, et al who agreed to surrender to Bush this week.

When Hilary wins the nomination, we’ll see LOTS of gloves come off. Somebody dust off Nader!

Is it surrender or avoiding a losing fight with a president that has shown himself to be obstinate. They know that if they withold the funding, Karl will make them pay in the court of public opinion because he evidently controls much of the media and the way the message is disseminated. Not surrender, knowing when to pick your fights. As you can see they are slowly whittling away at the republicans credibility and exposing their dirty deeds with congressional investigations.

What about the (self proclaimed) mandate to end the war? If the Dems can’t defeat an unpopular, lame duck President, I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting to accomplish much else.
Investigations are the smokescreen for the cave-in to Bush on Iraq, the loads of pork they’ve budgeted (some change, huh?) and the lack of ANY of the promises that were supposed to happen in the first 100 days.

No wonder the Dems approval ratings are as low as Bush’s.

Stop claiming sainthood because you’re not Republican, you’ve been duped by career politicians from a different party. Big deal!

Well said. It’s one thing to actually want to change policy and actively pursue that change. I can respect anyone who really cares about something strongly enough to cause change. But to just complain, insult, and play politics without accomplishing anything, for the pure sake of being viewed better than your opponent, deserves no respect at all. Politicians are politicians, no matter what you think in your black-or-white, utopian dreams.

kinda funny, the loads of pork where the price of some votes(unfortunately, bribery is the norm in congress these days, it’s the culture of corruption we have allowed to proliferate in congress). If you look at the previous war spending bills you’d be amazed at the amount of pork within, didn’t seem to bother the president. It would be absurd for the democrats to continue to push the issue when they know the administration won’t budge and will turn it on them in a heartbeat. ‘our troops are dying because the dems didn’t fund them’ will be the battle cry. Of course the populace will forget the genesis of the mess and how the administration refused to listen to the experts and went into iraq with 150k instead of half a million troops.

I guess you assume I must be a supporter of the democrats so you try to make me feel bad that I’m on their side. Hate to disapoint you but it is pretty obvious that they have sold out to special interests just as bad as republicans. In the face of corruption and waste of treasury money, the american people have not demanded better from their politicians. They became complacent, much like the romans of old, and allowed the greedy to control their government. Like the romans, america will be defeated mainly from within because of it’s shortsightedness and stupidity. See, they got you spewing their talking points, “lack of any of the promises” for example. Do you say that because you know this for a fact or because O’really told you so? find some objective sources of information, your nation depends on honesty and intelligence rather than BS.

Fine, Jed. Name an accomplishment by this Democratic Congress. You fault me for assuming you’re a Dem but then assume I watch O’Reilly.

The Dems claimed they were DIFFERENT (ie, better) and made PROMISES that they have yet to deliver on. That is a FACT. If O’Reilly says it is or isn’t is irrelevant. Overheated rhetoric may work at the coffee shop but not in reality.

Ted Kennedy is pushing this so-called Immigration Reform just as he did in the 60’s and the 80’s. He promised then, like now, that this would solve the problem. It didn’t then and won’t now.

The immigration bill right now polls even more unpopular than the War.

RollingStone-

Your latest issue is great-the Cover is Sexsational-Beauty and the Beast…Um, ummm, um….(Depp and Richard’s…)You hit Gold….

“GOP’s Pathetic Candidates, isn’t bad, either…Very good…

You Do Know What We Like…Yes…

Gloves Labour’s Lost – Well put. Seventy percent of the American people appose amesty and want the border secured. A percentage that large cuts across political parties, race and religion.

well Glove, that’s a typical lazy man’s response… ‘give me the answer so I don’t have to search for it’. Since the topic is immigration and not whether or not you are influenced by the media machine’s version of reality or the ethical nature of our politicians I will avoid your attempt at reframing the topic to a fight between dem or rep.

Your misstatements and distortion of the topic is reminiscent of other wingnuts on these boards, you’d do well to look at the issues objectively rather than just spewing talking points. Kennedy hasn’t said it would solve the problem, in fact his statement recently said it was a step towards resolution. Fact is, all this posturing on immigration is merely for show. The 1980’s law would have went a long way to a solution if it would have been followed through, unfortunately when the law achieved it’s expected result, swaying the masses and making them think they actually had done something good,they dropped enforcement and the raising fines on employers. You try to criminalize the people for doing what human beings have done from the begining of time. Moved from one place to another to evade harsh conditions or find a better life. The true criminals are the corporations and individuals who take advantage of these people and pay them miserly wages. If congress were really interested in drying up the job market for these people they would impose severe fines on those that hire them instead of a slap on the wrist. 3 times the normal yearly salary of that person seems fair, with 1 years salary going to the illegal and immediate deportation as restitution for their exploitation. The rest of the money going to hire more inspectors and support for the immigration service. The company at fault would have to wait 5 years for any tax breaks or government contracts and pay back taxes for those illegals they hired. Put the onus on those that are profiting from the crime, not the people who are doing whatever it takes to survive in this screwed up world. Then again, nothing gets done in government without the corporate world giving it the greeen light. THey own our politicians, that’s who they work for, not the people, they work for the ones with large bank accounts and tax shelters in grand cayman.

Well, Jed your response is a typical cop-out. Since you can’t name a single Democratic Congress accomplishment, you change the subject. When Democrats themselves are lamenting the lack of accomplishments, the “media machine” dismissal comes off sounding a tad paranoid.

In 1965, the American people were guaranteed that immigration would never exceed its then low level of 250,000 a year. Today, it is at an all-time high: nearly one million a year and growing. Because of persistent congressional miscalculations, immigrants and their descendants will fuel a massive increase in the population of the United States for the foreseeable future. Immigration continues unabated, without regard to changing U.S. labor markets, conditions in the inner cities, or the growing costs to state and local taxpayers. Kennedy’s role in creating this situation has been enormous.

Legislation that Kennedy marshaled through Congress in the mid 1960s, 1980, and 1990 produced massive immigration flows–flows of a magnitude unprecedented in American history–for which the American public and the INS were, and are, ill prepared. Despite repeated promises from Kennedy that these laws would not increase overall immigration, they have done just that.

Miscalculations of the administrative impact of his changes. Senator Kennedy has persistently miscalculated the administrative impact of changes he has made in immigration laws. For example, the 1980 Refugee Act was designed to remove foreign-policy considerations from the formulation of our refugee laws. Instead, it laid the foundations for a massive bureaucracy that has sent phony asylum applications skyrocketing to over 100,000 a year.

You say these people are only here for a better life? For a country as hated by the rest of the world, there sure are a lot of people trying to get in. Should we allow 1 or 2 billion Chinese to come here to have a better life? Should we excuse thieves if they claim they were only stealing your car to make a better life for their family.

Should we also excuse illegal aliens for creating forged documents that, if you had your way, would jail small business owners who hire these illegals based on the fraudulent documents?

People on the left (unions) and the right (business owners) are strongly opposed to this bill. It presents a false choice- citizenship or mass deportation.

I’m not entirely against employer sanctions but I’m dead set against amnesty/citizenship for lawbreakers while millions of others who also want to be citizens, play by the rules and will STILL have to wait.

The part I don’t like is they only have to pay back taxes for two of the last five years. If I move to Mexico and swim back can I get a refund? My wife wants a new BMW and that will more than pay for it…

Jed/”Dude”, are you consciously posing as a left wing caricature to discredit the left because you’re a huge success.

The native Americans were hardly the people of God you fancy they were. I’m agnostic so I don’t “feel” your God references. If you feel guilty, go back to Europe.

Everyone knows that both parties are pushing the current Immigration bill, just as in the 80’s. Kennedy is perhaps the only one whose fingerprints are on every bill going back to the 60’s. He’s the one that claimed the last bill would stop illegal immigration. There may be others but he’s always been the most vocal.

The Dems finally after caving to Bush have accomplished something. They’ve split the Party.

For a teacher, you don’t know a whit about editing, particularly yourself.

Jed, the native americans were just as violent as any other peoples on the earth at that time, its just that they killed with arrows and the like, as opposed to the more technologically advanced europeans

various tribes fought, and fought violently, (surely, as a teacher, you must know that scalping existed long before europeans arrived)

not to diminish what was done to the native americans, as it was horrible and unjistified, but to say that the native americans lived this romanticized notion of a peaceful utopia is a bit of “revisionist history”

Every civilization in the history of the world was created by kicking out the natives and using slave labor.

Who cares about the trashy soap-opera that is the RNC? The real pressing issue is, is Taibbi on vacation or something? He hasn’t posted anything new in weeks.

Your knowledge of history, or lack thereof, is astounding though understandable. Just because the victors get to rewrite history doesn’t mean you have to be a putz and swallow it all, geological evidence tends to refute what’s on the ‘history’ books.
Scalping was introduced by the French and British as proof of the enemy they had killed so they could pay the natives they enlisted.
While there was some conflict between tribes, as there seems to have always been in known human history, in the americas it was mostly ceremonial or tests of bravery for the young.
While all peoples of earth seem to have been affected by a particular infection a long time before the europeans started invading other parts of the world, europeans seem to be distinctly affected by the illness. They internalized brutality and senseless violence as well as an arrogance and sense of superiority not seen before on earth.

You keep showing your lack of reading comprehension by making assumtions from your missreadings. I am no longer a teacher, I got frustrated by the poor quality of the new breed of students and their complete lack of ethics and rampant cheating, I kept getting in trouble for punishing the cheats. Universities are more interested in graduating numbers rather than quality.

Your self labeling of ‘agnostic’ also reflects what you keep posting on these boards even under other names, that you know very little in your young age yet think you know it all, even that there’s no possibility that there is a ’supreme being’ whatever it’s given name; in my case, though I feel religion is merely a tool, I can’t ignore what has been presented to me in a way that can’t be ignored. Being an engineer I tend to require proofs and that, for me, has been stisfied, though it’s much different than what religion tries to shove down people’s throat, and is so willingly accepted.

When Columbus arrived in the ‘new world’ he wrote in his logs that this place was heaven. Described the beauty, pacificity and intelligence of the people he encountered. Being a greedy european he took advantage of their lack of experience in brutality and warfare. Unable to find gold and riches, he loaded his ships for the return trip with people, more than two thirds of which died due to mistreatment and not being used to the filthy living conditions that the europeans lived in.
The americans had such a great relationship with the creator that they had been blessed with good health and prosperity, which they repaid with reverence for the land and the creatures in it and learning as much as they could from it. So much so that they understood that the land didn’t belong to them, it belongs to the creator, be ready for when she wakes up from her nap, she’ll probably decide to take it back since her stewards seem to be more intent on destroying their home rather than protecting it. They have completely fallen under the influence of an external power which makes them turn on each other.

The number of times this threads debate has shifted is countless. Methinks instead of going off on tangents to secure some degree of victory in an argument, it would better serve all sides by discussing the issues at hand and using relevant sources to site evidence.

Just a thought.

jed, once again it is you who are twisting history…

while it is true that the europeans practiced scalping, it was in neolithic times…as historian James Axtell states, there is plenty of historical evidence that the Europeans, in effect, re-learned from the native americans, who widely practiced it, for many centuries before the europeans arrived on the continent

your view, that is was the europeans who brought it over and taught it to the natives, only became popular in the 1960s, and is of dubious historical parentage

two, columbus was in the caribbean, a place that no one will dispute is heaven, but colombus himself did not commit many mass genocides per se–you seem to confuse him with later spanish explorers, and of course, the Americans in the 1800s, and in most cases the diseases they brought were not brought on purpose, but common to europeans

and lastly, the native americans had such a special “bond” with the land because it was their lifeblood, there was nothing mystical about it–being nomadic they knew that overhunting or overusing a resource could be the death of a tribe

So is this a fifteen or twenty round fight? It’s beginning to drag a little bit. Stick and move Jed… stick and move.

Smell the Glove,

Actually, native americans held women in high regard. Except for the hunting of game, women were the main providers of everything else.

well, maybe someone should offer mr. mccain a plate of noodles, show him the queen of hearts, and replace the chip on his shoulder. re-program him, yes?

Your ability to comprehend the written word is somewhat surpassed by your imaginative interpretation.
I did not say the europeans practices scalping, only that they used it as proof by the indians that they had killed the enemy. They were payed by the scalp.

It is quite arrogant, and typical, of citizens of the US to think they are americans and that people of central america and south american are not. America is the name of the continent, not the country. I’ve often wondered how kids graduate high school without knowing some basic concepts of geography but can recite every movie Lindsey Lohan has participated in.

I only mentioned columbus as having loaded his ships with people instead of material wealth he expected to have, he didn’t commit mass murder as Pizarro and Cortez or other only because he didn’t have a bunch of soldiers to help him out. THere were others, like cabeza de vaca, who came with the same intent but where changed once they lived with the natives for a while and some even championed their cause at great personal risk.
While it’s true the spaniards that came over didn’t know they were carrying diseases doesn’t change the fact that they developed those diseases by living in filth, from emptying their chamber pots in the middle of the streets; the americans on the other hand, knew how to keep clean and thereby healthy. It was the US army that used disease as a form of warfare by giving the natives blankets infected with disease(wmd anyone?).

to you, it may seem that the indians had nothing more than a ‘working’ relationship with the land because you choose not to believe in something greater. To them however, the land was everything, without it we don’t exist, and they could understand that the earth is a living being and should be respected as such. (Too bad modern man doesn’t hold such values and is willing to let a greedy few destroy it for all of us). They truly understood that overusing(abusing) a resource(and polluting) could be the death of the tribe… why doesn’t modern humanity recognize as much.
Natives had no need for the wheel, it would have been very difficult to move through the jungles, forests and mountains with it. Besides, being a simple people, they weren’t burdened with all the extra unnecessary stuff the whites carried.

There have always been bad actors among the peoples, in some societies they are reviled, others seem to hold them in high esteem and give their cause much spotlight time. The preponderance of goodness or evil defines the society as such. While the natives suffered through the same thing much of humanity had to deal with, they decided that the good road was the route for them, while the europeans felt quite differently. What we are seeing in our societies today is merely the end result of being more accepting of evil than good works.
‘asiseeit’ is correct in her assesment of women in native american society, mostly held in high regard because they were aware of their matriarchical histories and their understanding that spirit is female, as it is woman that is the giver of life.

damn, jed…lol, lighten-up on the meth bro…lol. look what happened to rosie, yes?

you gotta be high on drugs to have a conciense and a sense of history instead of being a tool of the forces that are tearing our planet appart? oh, that’s right, that’s how the right discredits those they don’t like.

it’s “conscience”, and “apart” with one “p”.
i’m with you anyhow, pal…in the broader perspective.

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“The View” will troll for another bubble-head blonde or just bubble-head that wants the “Relevant” issues like “where to get the best diamonds”, which Republican candidate has the most exciting platform”, “Barabara Bush’s latest fashion tips” and, “Joan River’s plastic surgery advice”…

Rosie gave the show color and added some relevancy and realism…

Bland and as exciting as frozen pizza will be the new “View”…