Wow Tim,
Way to quickly wrap up such a complex issue in a Liberal Bias “Nut-Shell”.

And before I get attacked, I am not an Anti-Abortion Nut. But, special medical circumstances aside, I just prefer other methods such as adoption.

Illustrated like that, both procedures seem extremely wrong. But criminalizing a medical procedure that could save lives seems to me to be equally wrong.

If the “nut-shell” seems wrapped in ‘liberal bias’ then maybe that’s because the truth, more and more, is denied by the right.

Until the last line, Mr. Dickinson was just providing the facts…a safe(-er) procedure is banned for political reasons and for no other.

Hallzee–perhaps you might want to do some research into how/why PBAs are used–it is a procedure almost universally applied to unexpected and unplanned abortions (re: women who were going to carry the fetus to term) and is typically done when the pregnancy may be endangering the life of the mother or a significant problem with the fetus’ development is discovered.

In that way, this decision has, practically, little to do with choice–as Tim and his diagrams describe, it is much more often about safety.

I don’t think that abortion is ever the right choice to make. But, it’s definately not my place to make that choice for someone. Nor is it the choice of the Supreme Court. Prohibition doesn’t work. It doesn’t matter what we’re talking about. It doesn’t work. If they outlaw abortions there are still plenty of doctors out there willing to break the law and give these women what they need/want. I think Bill Clinton said it best(if he even originally said it): Abortions should be safe, legal and rare.

This partyline ruling shows why the sepremecourt should be elected not apointed

According to recent polls most Americans oppose “partial birth abortions.” Of course abortion rights folks generally prefer the term “dilation and extraction,” a rather delibrately clinical term the omits the word “abortion” entirely.

In point of fact, each different abortion procedure has a different name, so demanding that people use “dilation and extraction” is a rather transparent ploy to obfuscate what really happens. “Partial birth abortion” is a much more accurate term.

However, my favored term is “hurry-up-and-kill-it-before-i t-comes-out abortion.” Truth in advertising, y’know.

Now that I think about it, many of the babies aborted this way would be viable outside the womb. Perhaps the term “deliberately botched premature delivery” would be more to everyone’s liking.

All kidding aside, I support the ban on this truly sick, barbaric practice. Now, perhaps we can resume the abortion debate without the need for gory hyperbole.

Klaatu,

Amputating an arm is a disgusting procedure. So is a facelift.

Your self-righteous disgust doesn’t speak to Tim’s point, nor does it address the utility of “PBAs”.

In almost all cases where PBAs are used, it is not a “hurry up and kill it” procedure but is considered a medical necessity…you side step that argument by not even mentioning it.

As far as ‘viable fetuses’…when this procedure is used for non-health reasons, its typically to end a non-viable pregnancy. A still born infant, for example, that’s lacking a brain stem.

I’ve seen these babies taken to term–there’s not only no reason for it (the babies are dead before they touch air, their eyes bloody eight-balls) it can be tramautizing for expecting parents to see their baby so disfigured.

This was a strictly political excercise on the part of Congress, the President, and the right-to-lifers. Unlike the procedure itself, the law has no utility (except as a floater for the now-imminent Constitutional challenges to Roe v. Wade)

How can you really argue that killing a human being with a beating heart isn’t wrong?

Curiouser and…

Self-righteous? Moi? In a fairly recent poll, 70% of Americans supported a ban on this particular procedure.

But to address you point by point, since you at least took the time and effort to drub me:

Amputating an arm is a disgusting procedure. So is a facelift.

Silly. All surgical procedure are gross to watch, but they don’t all kill babies.

Your self-righteous disgust doesn’t speak to Tim’s point, nor does it address the utility of “PBAs”.

I have no doubt of the “utility” of PBA’s, though I prefer PBJ’s. Partial birth abortions obviously work, so they have utility.

Tim’s point wasn’t worth addressing because he downplays viability as do you. You can’t win the argument, so you try to change it. Dismemberment is not somehow preferable to D & E. However, many people believe that abortion is at best a necessary evil that should be carried out early in the pregancy.

By the way, anyone want to vote to use terms like “dismemberment abortions” or “chemical burn abortions” from now on? Didn’t think so.

In almost all cases where PBAs are used, it is not a “hurry up and kill it” procedure but is considered a medical necessity.

Documentatio n? Source? or just wishful thinking? Methinks the latter.

As far as ‘viable fetuses’…when this procedure is used for non-health reasons, its typically to end a non-viable pregnancy. A still born infant, for example, that’s lacking a brain stem.

I’ve seen these babies taken to term–there’s not only no reason for it (the babies are dead before they touch air, their eyes bloody eight-balls) it can be tramautizing for expecting parents to see their baby so disfigured.

Again, you show a penchant for making speculative statements as if they were immutable facts.

The Guttmacher Institute has been very public about the reasons women choose abortion, but I have not yet seen those reasons broken out by method. Have you?

This was a strictly political excercise on the part of Congress, the President, and the right-to-lifers.

Unlike the procedure itself, the law has no utility (except as a floater for the now-imminent Constitutional challenges to Roe v. Wade)

There have already been many challenges to Roe v. Wade, and it survives. You really like the word “utility” don’t you?

Oops! I will now close my italics tag.

“How can you really argue that killing a human being with a beating heart isn’t wrong?”

Because I don’t recognize an biological entity with an undeveloped cerebral cortex and zero self-awareness as a “human being,” nor do I think it should be entitled to the rights of a “human being”. I mean, if killing a baby with an undeveloped brain, with virtually no ability to feel pain, and with absolutely no self-awareness or true consciousness is “murder,” then killing something like a cow or a chicken – which has a developed brain, can feel pain, and has a degree of self-awareness or consciousness – must be even more immoral.

Being that I am not prepared to grant chickens the right to vote (though I certainly support legislation to protect them from cruelty), I hardly see why I should refer to a fetus as if it’s a human being. It isn’t, at least not yet.

I wonder: If magazines like Rolling Stone weren’t actively dumbing people down, would the world be a better place?

Almost certainly.

Not surprising. Conservatives are pro-life. Unless of course you’re black and live in New Orleans. Or an Iraqi civilian. Or too poor to afford health insurance. Or…well, basically unless you’re not rich and white.

i always thought it was ironic how the people who are for abortion have already been born…

“Thinking is Almost Extinct”–

I seem to remember the Nazi’s using the exact same reasoning when they killed off millions of “non-humans” in the 30s and 40s

if you honestly have more qualms about killing a chicken than a human baby, then you have serious problems

honestly one should have the right to an abortion, but we should at least stop obfuscating what they’re aborting–a human fetus or a human baby in late term abortions

as long as you can live with the consequences, have at it, but dont try to pretend what you’re killing isnt human, or a “waste of tissue”

I find either procedure distasteful. Humans are nasty animals, but animals still.

However, I’ve never met a fetus who held a social security card. Thus, they are not citizens, and since the government doesn’t have qualms with killing other animals (and hey! a fetus doesn’t cry while it’s being yanked from the womb), why do we have any legislation concerning these procedures? And why are most of the legislatures men? They’ll never be pregnant . . . well, never say never.

Whatever fixes our over population problem. Though, might I suggest wrapping one’s whopper before one pops her.

Sick of the ONlY “Black or White” narrow viewpoint of people that do not have all the medical facts regarding PBA.

When it is performed to stop a life-threatening event in the mother, when the fetus has been found to have a fatal birth defect, etc.-then there is an immediate need and right of the physician and mother/family to make A Decision…

No one would opt for such a procedure unless it were an emergency situation(It is between the doctor and family to make the final decision)…

Those who are so opposed to abortion, never seem to be around to provide the health care, financial aid, emotional support, counseling for the women/babies who many times, are in desperate need of all the above…

Both sides exploit so much of the emotional and moral dilemma women, boyfriends, families face when confronted with decisions that are horrendous to have to make…

I’m not against the choice of women to have a safe, legal abortion but I still find the procedure greatly horrendous.

The fact of the matter is, the whole abortion issue seems to be one that is generated simply to divide people. I mean Republicans need their constituents of rich people (as do Democrats) and evangelicals, and rich people don’t care if abortion is legal; if their wives need an abortion, they’ll just pay a private physician.

So basically outlawing abortion would make it something that can only be done safely for the rich, disastrously hazardous for the poor and middle-class.

“No fetuses will be saved by this action.”

I have to hand it to you, Tim, I didn’t think you could be any more of a lying spinster.

Look, I’m pro-choice, but completely against partial-birth abortions unless the mother’s life is seriously in danger. If a doctor performs a PBA to save the life of a mother, post-ruling, he’s not going to be charged with wrong-doing because any judge worth judging will realize that that is the one time when it is acceptable to perform a PBA.

90% of abortions performed in America take place within the first 12 weeks after conception. This ruling will not effect that. Outside of a medical emergency there is absolutely no reason for a partial birth abortion to be preformed. This ruling just reinforces that with legal ramifications and is just and right in its intent.

GREAT Supreme Court Decision Today !

Love the Supreme Court Decision today !

the stupidest marketing decision ever in the history of humankind was naming a canned spaghetti sauce ‘prego’…

but on a more serious note; i think we need to create less toxic and more effective birth control methods so less people have to resort to aborting fetuses to begin with – if you stop them little suckers before fertilization, then everything’s kosher if you ask me…

you know; i have had a few girlfriends who had abortions, and while it likely saved me a whole lot of money, it never felt good – i went from being a father to…not – it’s a strange feeling…

nip it at the bud, i say!…

Co Co…

You may smell propaganda…everytime I read that name, I wonder if it isn’t the smell of your own ass.

Its not the government’s job to determine medical procedures and whether something is/isn’t in the best interest of a mother.

Similarly, it is the opposite of a judge’s job to NOT enforce a law. That’s exactly why the law was passed…to insure that judges would be forced to prosecute violators of the law, even if the doctor performs to procedure to save the life of a mother.

Your no doctor and your taste, or lack thereof, for this medical procedure should play no role in whether a licensed, trained and professional doctor can perform it.

Curiouser and…

Thanks, back, Curiouser.

I argue often and with great passion, but not to “win.” I argue to learn, and because it’s fun. This subject is emotionally loaded for everyone, and if we can get through it without tossing crap, good.

curioser… he who smelt it, dealt it!!

Isn’t it Ironic that when right wingers argue for smaller, less restrictive and regulating government, they do so only in support of their own desires, such as reducing regulations on businesses that protect the consumer, allowing the creation of monopolies, etc?
Yet when it comes to restricting the population, taking away inalienable rights, they have no problem in increasing government’s laws and regulations?

well Jed, that seems to be what either party does…Republicans always seems to want to restrict social behavior, while democrats are willing to tax the hell out of you to pay for whatever pipedream social utopia project comes next

another reason why i despise both parties, and why we need more than two parties in the system

but on the topic of abortion, i will lose no sleep at night over the banning of partial birth abortions…any form of later term abortion is particularly grisly, and should only be used in extremely rare cases (unfortunately too many people view an abortion as a trifling matter, like going to McDonalds or something), but at the same time, women should have the right to choose

i say if you can live with yourself, go ahead, but dont expect me to pay for it…

Curiouser and…

Dude, I’m pro-choice. If you want to get an abortion within the first 3-4 months of pregnancy, that’s acceptable. There is no reason to have a partial birth abortion though, unless it’s needed to save the mother. I think it’s murder to kill an almost fully developed baby/fetus just because you feel like copping out at the last second. The Supreme Court ruling protects the rights of nearly fully developed babies. It doesn’t take away from the mother’s rights because: one, the mother can’t be convicted if she gets a PBA done and two, no judge is going to send a doctor who performed a PBA to save a woman’s life to jail. 70% of Americans are against PBAs, I’m just one of them. Your attack on me for not agreeing with PBAs comes from the strong minority so don’t act like I’m an idiot. Am I not entitled to think PBAs should be banned? That seems resonable.

Publius –

“i always thought it was ironic how the people who are for abortion have already been born.”

The results of my not being alive if my mother had an abortion would’ve been identical to the results of my not being alive if my parents had decided to not make love, or get married, or whatever. Any number of events could have prevented that; either way, I wouldn’t have known since I would never have been born.

“I seem to remember the Nazi’s using the exact same reasoning when they killed off millions of “non-humans” in the 30s and 40s”

Um, yeah, except I’m only pointing out that fetuses don’t have any self-awareness (fact), don’t have developed cerebral cortexes (fact), and don’t know whether or not they are aborted since their brains and nervous systems aren’t, obviously, functioning yet. The reason we find murder – or genocide, in your example – reprehensible is because its victims possess developed brains and nervous systems, and have self-awareness; they feel pain, and they feel emotional anguish over that pain. That empathy to others’ pain is a fundamental reason why we all try to treat each other well. Fetuses don’t feel pain, and they don’t know what’s happening to them.

“if you honestly have more qualms about killing a chicken than a human baby, then you have serious problems”

Can you elaborate on this? A chicken has a fully-developed brain, and a functioning nervous system; it can feel pain, as science has proven. A fetus does not have a fully-developed brain and does not have a functioning nervous system; it can not feel pain. It also has less consciousness and self-awareness than an adult chicken.

I fail to see how your argument makes any sense, besides some kind of mindless anthropocentrism.

Ditto what Publius said! And to elaborate: chickens actually have a fairly complex language, rescinding the old notion of a “bird brain.” Publius is right, it is very anthropocentric to view one creature as inferior because they don’t create governments of their own or go to Church on Sunday to show off clothes(replace with coop/feathers and it shoots my argument to hell) or a greasy fast food place to clog their arteries. We have the largest proportionate brains of any past or present animal. This we know, but the standards we create for measuring intellect — and even the concept itself — are distinctly human, thus it’s inaccurate to judge another animal by our standard. Much like Western nations expecting Western results from African nations with different cultures and ecologies. Though that concept would be ethnocentrism.

Isn’t it strange how far the Lib’s will go to keep men from dying in war but love to kill the unborn? Over a million abortions a year. It would take one hell of a war to equal those confirmed kill statistics.

The fetii(?) didn’t know or were aware of being killed. The soldiers were. Painfully aware. Most of them.

Co Co…I know you’re pro-choice, that’s neither here nor there. The two main issues I take with your position are:

1) No matter what the circumstances, we’ve no right to make medical decisions for doctors. Be it medical marijuana, PBAs, physician-assisted death with dignity, face-lifts, stem cells…No matter how much we think we know about ‘X’ procedure, we don’t know. We’re not doctors. Legislators aren’t either (for the most part). When the AMA and OB/GYN associations say that PBAs are sometimes warranted/needed, we should trust them to know. They, in fact, are trained professionals.

2)To think that the Congress and states who ban a procedure and then not prosecute those who break the law is absurd. That’s why they passed the law! It was purposeful to not include exceptions for health/rape/incest…And, in our judicial system, its not the purview of a judge to ‘not prosecute’. If a state-appointed attorney brings a suit, the judge must here it and can only dismiss the case for lack of evidence…and can never do so becasue he thinks the state’s case is cruel or immoral (again, I refer you to mandatory minimums, drug laws, three strikes…all cases where a majority of judges are against the policies they are forced to enforce).

Finally…how is it your right (or anyone’s) to place checks on a woman’s right to choose? A woman should have a right to do as she will with her body, as long as you don’t find it too distasteful?

Or does this 3-4 month window wherein a woman can get an abortion signify your belief that a fetus becomes a person at the beginning of the 2nd trimester? Is it any coincidence that your preferred time limits on abortion opportunities correspond to when a woman begins to show?

I understand your point of view and know you to be an intelligent person but your lines of demarcation seem arbitrary, which is the problem with Americans (in general) on most issues. Which is exactly why folks like us shouldn’t make laws, which must (to function properly) be based on logic and evidence, not personal taste.

The real problem here is when does life begin? When a man masturbates it could conceivably be termed mass murder because the sperm are placed in a hostile environment. So basically every teenage boy is a serial mass murderer! On the other side of the coin 8 month old fetuses which are viable and have scissors stuck in the back of their heads are not being treated fairly. They DO feel pain. The first trimester has been the standard of the industry and should stand as such. If you haven’t decided to abort before 13 weeks you need to consider adoption.

I “Always thought it so Ironic” how the “Right” is so protective of American “Unborn Babies” but seem oblivious to pregnant women in the MiddleEast killed during our “Occupation” of Iraq or babies killed there or in Darfur, Anywhere…

And, where are the “Moralists” when women Choose to have their babies and are in need of lodging, funds, emotional and, educational support…

It is dangerous to make Black and White statements and judgments and then be conveniently remiss in displaying consistent support and guidance for those you challenge to give birth…

This does not even address the number of emotionally-challenged mothers who have no support systems or adequate mental/health care to stop them from disposing of their children in violent acts when they are “overwhelmed” or unfit for motherhood.

Thank goodness God has infinitely more wisdom than humans…

If you are not disturbed by these illustrations, no matter your politics, you need psychoanalysis.

it’s not a conservative or liberal perspective to fall prey to the maternal instincts that cause you to care about a child you created…sometimes it’s hard not to think about what an aborted child’s life might have been like…if only the planet were bigger and i had more money or something…

“Oh these procedures are so disgusting!!!”

You people are fucking stupid.

Most medical procedures are disgusting. Dr. Ralph can attest to the tracheotomies and the need to remove Gerbils from the anuses of grown men and women. Hell, I bet the man has a shitload of stories that-if made into graphics- would make 100% of you vomit. And if you’re scared of the horrific nature of innocence extinguished, then check your food and watch video of cows, kids and veal being grown and slaughtered. Also consider the fact that human meat is the most nutritious for the human body and put yourself in the position of those fuckers stranded on a mountain in the dead of winter with no support. You know what you’d do.

Cons would have a great deal more credibility on this issue if they gave a fuck what happens to the baby after its born. Or if they gave a fuck what happens to an Iraqi kid after a U.S. cluster bomb is dropped near it. What Cons really are is jealous that real men and women have sex with each other outside of marriage. It’s like they look at a Hustler, get a hard on, and then simultaneously get freaked out that some other guy is gonna bone a chick they’ll never touch. They are hostile to sex outside of marriage ‘cause they’re jealous and want to punish those who are having more fun than they are.
Listen morons, abortions are facts like gravity. The quixotic morons who think they can eliminate abortions will only kill more and more young women. They will do so out of an ideological disregard for factual information. It is these people: the ideologues, who are the most dangerous to this country. They are more dangerous than Iran, Syria or Osama.
They are false prophets. And they’re telling you to praise Jesus.

Please tell them to go fuck themselves.

I feel your pain Likroper… My wife and I were not married when she became pregnant with our first child. I was in school with no way to support myself much less two more and gave her money for an abortion. She came back crying two days later and said she couldn’t go through with it. That was over twenty years ago and I still think about how close I came to killing my first born son… weird.

“If you are not disturbed by these illustrations, no matter your politics, you need psychoanalysis.”

Um, yeah, or instead of relying on baseless appeals to emotion, we could actually, like, rationally analyze the situation.

Just a thought.

emotional intelligence is rational thought…

Re: “but regardless of how i think; i tend to think…” (!?)

If a fetus is not a person, why was Scott Peterson charged with murdering 2 people?

Keep fighting the great fight, the above images just make me all the more opposed to the heinous crime that these friggen’ libbys call abortion.

I have a friend who is pro-abortion not because he is “pro-choice” but because he is, “pro-death”

“W for Y”

I have some friends that are Pro-War ’cause they Love Death, Disaster and, Destruction! How ’bout that?

Isn’t it strange how the Cons will obsess on the “Unborn’s Right for Life” but present with an air of blas’e regarding the deaths of infants and soldiers, innocent women, children caught in “Wars of Lies” that This administration majors in!

Um, Um, Um…..

GOOD INFO KEEP IT UP *************************

Who fight for the rights of the unborn. They are human!

i cant believe this only brought tears to my eyes . who ever does this is not human there muderers.

i cant believe this only brought tears to my eyes . who ever does this is not human there muderers.

i cant believe this only brought tears to my eyes . who ever does this is not human there muderers.

Abortions are brutal.
for music though.
Like death metal.

Like Regurgitated Abortion.

Thats a cool band name.

I am 3 months pregnant and came across this. I am feeling physically sick. I am not fiercely judgemental on the topic but I am “pro- life”- so I am having the baby. My pregnancy has come at a time when I find myself unmarried and unemployed but I cannot imagine ever allowing that to happen. It is barbaric. My 13 week old foetus has a nervous system for goodness sake!