Your writing is amazing. Truly visionary work. You should come and work for me.

Klein has way too much invested in this now. He can never admit he fucked up so severely, because he’d be acknowledging that we have no reason to pay attention to his endless chin-stroking — which, of course, is true.

Klein’s ability to continue earning a living doing what he does — which, again, is nothing but a preening intellectual shell game — depends on him not understanding this, at least in public. He’s a gutless chump, and he can carry this one on his conscience for the duration.

Great article Matt, I have to concurr with your comment… “I’m sorry, but the next pundit who whips that one out should have his balls stuffed down his throat. You cocksuckers beat the drum to send these kids to war, and then you turn around and accuse us of rooting for them to die? Fuck you for even thinking that. We’re Americans just like you. You don’t have the right to get us into this mess and then turn around and call us traitors.”

These imbeciles in the white house will never admit how criminally wrong they have been, unfortunately, they will never be prosecuted as they should be because we couldn’t go through the ‘embarrasment’ of having elected officials prosecuted.

Isn’t it funny how people that a few months ago where extolling the virtues of their party and the ‘good’ they were doing for the country now blame the corruption on the fact that there are only two viable parties? It isn’t the system that is problematic, it is the ‘entrepeneurs’ that dump money on politicians in order to corrupt the system in their favor. These fools have no qualms about destroying the fabric of their country in order to continue their obscene quest for more wealth.

why “refuse to answer: “Do you want America to win in Iraq?”

Because its obviously a leading question, intentionally phrased so that no matter how its responded to, the responder looks bad. Therefore the correct answer is not to respond.

excellent article Matt. Nice to hear someone cutting through the bullshit (although it really does show how difficult it will be to really change things. Almost EVERYONE involved in the war/politics has to go).

One misstep: ‘like John Belushi with tits’. A terrifying image that will haunt my dreams for years to come.

It’s not about hoping the war in Iraq will fail or succeed. It’s about reality: this war is not working, hasn’t worked, and won’t work. Do good Americans want their troops to die? No. But do Americans want a pointless war to keep going, let alone ever start? Also no. There is nothing to accomplish. If this is truly about the Iraqi people now, then the best thing is to leave. We can’t have our own guys dying for their country, it’s not right or even American. Bush will never be prosecuted for this, just like even though Clinton was impeached, he was aloud to stay the remainder of his second term. Why you ask? Because like Republicans knew for Clinton, Democrats now know that as much as they disagree or even hate Bush, the “image” of a President cannot be tarnished by prosecution. It won’t happen. No matter the evidence presented, how concrete it may be, it won’t happen. This is the sad reality of our system. Those in power are above the law, it’s not right, and shame on you President George “Warmonger” Bush.

Thanks for acting and not re-acting. No more fire-for-fire, burn-for-burn. It only wields representatives the majority of us neither want or need.

Joe Klein = Vichy Democrat

’nuff said. He’s just like Kerry, actually; he’s secretly playing for the other team (not the Republicans so much as the ruling elite). The establishment still wants the war; hell they want another one, with Iran. These people are fucking crazy. We need to scrape the top layer of society right off the cake and toss it in the trash. What’s that old saying? I think it went something like this:

“Society is like soup. If you don’t stir things up often enough you get a layer of scum on the top.”

every week, this guy convinces me that hunter s thompson faked his own death so he could stir up some more shit without having people disparage it as “oh…that’s just hunter being his fucked up self”…bravo

ps…didn’t john belushi actually have tits?

I’m begining to suspect that winning isn’t even the objective in Iraq. I’m scratching my head trying to figure out why we’re still there. Of course, telling the country why it’s really there would fly in the face of 6 years of tradition.

Just another article written by a leftist who is invested in U.S. defeat. You are so hypocritical in that u cant stand being criticized for your ignorant views on our national security and the necessity that we succeed, not only in Iraq, but in changing the hatred in the entire Middle East. You can dish out labels and criticism, but cry like little babies when the truth is told about you. You try to deny who you are (leftists), and try to make people believe you’re not. Bush isnt doing what is popular, he’s doing what good leaders do. Making decisions on what he knows is right. The liberals in this country dont care about National Security, they’re consumed with getting power and their hatred for Bush. Anything less than victory in the Middle East could destroy this great country, but liberals dont care, they just hate Bush and want him to lose just so they can say they were right. Its gotten to the point, where they’re hoping that we lose because they want the power back so bad, that they’re demoralizing our soldiers and giving the enemy reason to keep fighting. Instead of demoralizing our enemy, rallying together and supporting our just mission, they encourage our enemy. This war is taking too long, and I blame liberals who want power rather than victory. Just shut your damn mouths and support the war and it would have been over by now. Keep it up liberals. More soldiers will die because you give the enemy hope. Their blood is on your hands, not Bush’s.
Oh and whoever said that fighting a war for another country was unamerican is an ignorant, uneducated jackass. We’ve liberated Europe on more than one occasion. In fact, its more unamerican not to fight against evil.

$600 billion dollars could have been invested in mass transit and, more importantly the Helios Project (my name for an Apollo type project) which would work to develop alternative fuel(s)…hydrogen, etc. Think about it….$100 billion a year to universities for the past 4 years. History clearly tells me that those who direct their actions towards the benefit of a minority few, and here is the key, at the EXPENSE of the majority usually destroy a civilization. Athens, Germany, Rome, China…etc. The wisdom of Clinton is missed as he clearly understood that America is a partner in the world and not a go it alone teenager. I am so saddened by Bush Jr’s behavior and cry with his father at what his undisciplined, learderless, heartless and clueless son has done to our nation. Look at China expand using the $400 billion in interest payments we pay them. I am at the point where I will die for a REAL leader with a vision.

I spent some time as a medic hauling body bags of American “advisors” out of Da Nang inb 1062-1063. I voted for Barry Goldwater, and Richard Nixon three times (once for governor of California). I still consider myself to be a conservative, but these bastards have co-opted the term, and indeed the entire language of the debate. All of you who think you agree with “Shrub”, (I also voted forhis father) should go find a copy of Goldwater’s seminal work, “Conscience of a Conservative”. It won’t stretch your powers of concentration…it’s relativily short, It does, however, require that yu be able to read (some of you missed that requirement) and to understand what is and what isn’t in the best interest of this country.

Shrub, Cheney, and Rumsfeld, have visited the biggest disgrace, and probably, brought the greatest defeat and untimate demise of this country , on us.

Ronald Reagan, the great saint, came to the conclusion to get the hell out of Lebanon, and let religious zealots fight among themselves. The nuts we now have for leaders are the zealots, and they will take us all with them.

Mr. Taibbi,
Thanks… and I see (have seen) the problem since the Vietnam War – but I still don’t see the solution. I can only say on behalf of most adults in this country – fool me twice, shame on me.

Will the last American soldier to leave Iraq this month please stop and change the light bulb at the end of the tunnel?

Matt,

Is your dad still hustling everyone in the newsroom for dirty jokes? I remember that from my stint at Ch. 7 in Boston.

Those who say we are unpatrotic because we are trying to prevent the needless slaughter of our own soldiers are revealing the transparency of their hypocracy more and more with each passing day. How they have managed to turn every good idea of the founding fathers inside out and distort the mission of our country never ceases to amaze me. The truth about democracy is simple–it must be created by people who are going to use it. There is no such thing as spreading democracy through the barrel of a gun, and we are the people who were supposed to know that. The ironys and distortions of our right-wing populace are now unraveling, and therein lies our hope. Maybe we will somehow find modern-day rebels with the the courage to once again take our country from the greedy hands of our new King George.

It’s amazing how many people comment about things they know nothing of,like world politics,a wise man once said”But they have not investigated the matter properly.They criticize what they do not know and speak of places where they did not set foot.”I would bet money 95% of people who have commented on this war have not been out of the country nor have the stomach to defend what they believe in.The Dems will pull us out of Iraq,they will take over Iraq along with help from Russia,Syria and every other hardcore radical in the east..I hope it’s your town they smoke first,just to bring it alittle closer to your home.It would not have mattered where we took the war pick a country in the middle east and you would have the same thing as Iraq.But I guess that’s to wayout a concept to understand,I guess you will see what happens…Boooom!fallout

Made a mistake,left out the word IRAN.They are the ones who will take over Iraq, with the help of Russia and Syria.I guess people just think this is going to go away,we have lost about 80 soldiers a month since the war started,during the 2nd world war we lost 8000 a month,I guess everyone would have said fuck it! long before that figure..We have not finished a war since and because of people like the people on here we never will.And by the way I am a vet, my father is a vet,my brother is a vet.We know what is important and understand people die in war but it’s for the greater good of the world and the United States,and for those who say it’s over oil,no shit let Iran take over the UAE Saudi and Iraq then see where the US stands,try $5 for a loaf of bread or $1600 electric bill need I go on..But as I said you will all see..

Its easy to lose focus when there is this adrenalin rush. It is very offensive how a few men took so many countries to war for crooked causes, failed at their mission, and then turn around and asks us for supporting them to straighten out their mess. You see, its not that we’re not forgiving of their notions, its the fact that they would still continue in their transgression if they were to be aided in fixing the mess.
Its not anti-patriotic, its not rooting for failure, its simply a collective will to do things the right way; and fabricating information to wage war is not the right way to do things.

It’s a nonsense to even ask whether or not someone or other wants the U.S. to win in Iraq. It’s a moot point – the war is lost. The discussion needs to move to how to leave Iraq in the least worst manner – none of the options are good. So, move on – stop defending the war, admit it is lost and start thinking how it can be finished with the smallest loss of life.

I personally wear as a badge of pride that I attended anti-war marches before the war even started – only the most rabid war-supporter wouldn’t admit that my concerns at the time haven’t been proved over the intervening 4 or 5 years to have been well-founded. And that is why I would never vote for Hilary Clinton – it would be policy dictated by talk-back radio!

This author may be onto a few things about Iraq, and the perception of it. However, Vietnam was lost by those that cut the funding to Vietnam [Congress, and Ford - Watergate didn't help].

General Creighton Abrams took the US military back to an all volunteer force, reduced the size of the presence in Vietnam fron over 400,000 in 1968 to less than 40,000 in ‘72, and the NVA and VC still got their butts beat in the Easter Offensive [Tet, and almost every other].

President Thieu in his resignation speech BLAMED THE US FOR NOT LIVING UP TO ITS PROMISE AT THE PARIS PEACE CONFERENCE, “IF we only have half the funding, we can only hold half the country.” South Vietnam should be what South Korea is today. We are still in Germany and Japan 60 years later.

WE FAILED THEN, LETS NOT FAIL AGAIN IN IRAQ. LETS WORK FOR A STABLE DEMOCRACY, NOT SURRENDER TO TERROR. DEMOCRACY IS NOT MICROWAVABLE, “READY TO GO IN 3-4 YEARS”.

DOES ANYONE WANT TO LEAVE THAT MUCH OIL FOR OSAMA AND THE IRANIANS TO SPLIT?

America is the greatest nation on Earth. It is the best society so far devised by humankind. Lets give it the respect it is due. Bashing America and its leaders will not bring peace to the world. Helping them accomplish the great work of the first benign superpower will. America is the answer to world hunger. America is the answer to world pollution. America is the answer to the world’s human rights abuses. America is the light in an otherwise dark world. We have overcome racism and divisions that would tear a lesser system to shreds. Nothing wrong with politics and debating the issues…but blaming America for the world’s problems is like blaming your oral hygentist because you didn’t brush your teeth. Common Rolling Stone…put the American flag on your cover…it deserves it!

I should add, in case I’m invited to “join up then!” or “send your kids!”:

I joined the Army at 17 and served from 1972-78, including a tour in a combat unit in South Korea (what was the “exit strategy” for THAT war?). I have no military-aged childrdn.

My nephew was wounded in Ramadi in August and after a convalescence in the States has returned to his unit and serves as a machinegunner with the 82nd Airborne.

Hey Joe Klein, we still hear the drum beat you laid down in the lead up to this war. Try as you might to wash out those primitive thumps with your grunts about mythical “leftists” who want their home soil to crackle under mushroom clouds. The melody you have formed is as old as time and it is easily recognizable to those who are attuned. It is the song of a soulless man who has eaten from the apple and now hacks desperately at the trunk of the tree. This was “the wrong war” at the wrong time, and it is still the wrong war at this time. Unfortunately, you, sir, are the wrong man at a magazine desperately in need of a new tune.

OK, Iraq is a democracy. Great. Watch them democratically vote themselves to become a fundementalist Islamic state aligned with Iran.

Also, watch over the next decade as Iraqi babies are shown deformed from all of the depleted uranium we used.

War is waged for money and profits. You are naive to think that war is waged over democracy and liberty. If that’s so, then why haven’t we “liberated” the Chinese?

Hey “Support the War”;

To call you “stupid”; would be an insult to “Stupid”; when you wake up in the middle of night does your mommy change your sheets; Son grow up; You belong in a Hitler youth camp, you are not American, just ’stupider then stupid’ sincerely, Sad about Stupid

These are the things I see in my life time that I will be working on. One, starting pay for all of congress 40k, that is also the ending pay. Lobbying removed in all forms and fashion, (this is the one reason we are in the mess that we are in). Term limit on congress to no more than 8 years. Bill shall be past as it is with admendments that pertain to the bill ie no pork. All bills that have a vote shall be recorded for the better of the people. If we all work together, we can rid are selfs of this congress that only cares for power and wealth.

Blue_Foot writes: “…but blaming America for the world’s problems is like blaming your oral hygentist [sic] because you didn’t brush your teeth”

You make the grave error of conflating the Bush Administration, Exxon/Mobil, Halliburton, The Office of Special Plans, Alberto Gonzalez, Antonin Scalia, Chevron, Condoleeza Rice, Fox News, Dick Cheney, Joe Lieberman, Pat Robertson, and the rest of this corporatist neo-con neo-fascist alliance with America.

No one is “blaming America.” Although it is the case that Americans so easily lulled into complacency by a false sense of patriotism and a seething hatred of people they don’t understand fed by these war profiteers are accountable for the train wreck we’re all witnessing.

Trying to weed thru all the bullchit professional politicians expect us to buy gets abit aggravating at times. Bush and his band of lying thugs wanted this war (probably for profit as well as arrogant ideology) and sold it to the American public like a two bit carny huckster sells a carnal thrill to some country rube. By some of the posts here a few are still buying into the Bush lies as it’s probably too painful to admit they were duped by someone they voted for twice. So called liberals are not causing the problems in Iraq, centuries of tribal conflicts are. Not everyone wants or deserves “western” style democracy and to think they do is one dimensional American thinking. The ability to destroy the planet ten times over guarantees nothing with respect to competent, logical, foreign policy decisions. This has never been so evident as it is with the current Iraq debacle.

Rumsfeld, Joe Klein and his ilk are lucky they live in America. In some nations, any fool who had failed their nation so terribly and did so much harm to their nation’s interest would be put in front of a firing squad. Klein is a traitor and a worm.

As for ‘leftists’ opposing the war: Wow, Pat Buchanan is a leftist? Jim Webb, Reagan’s Secretary of the Navy is a leftist? Ed Meese, Larry Eagleburger and Jim Baker of ISG are leftists? Joe Klein deserves to be locked up on Guantanamo Bay, though of course the First Amendment rightfully protects him from his just desserts.

To those of you who are still trying to figure out why we even went to Iraq in the first place, I suggest you follow the money. How many ways can you spell ‘OIL’?
Now add to that the elimination of what used to be the foremost threat to Israel …

Go Matt! How sweet to see a fellow ‘liberal’ show some real balls in addition to insight and wisdom. Unlike the Dems, your message can be heard by those between the coasts–it speaks their language, a perfect antidote to the simple-minded pandering propaganda of Bush, Rush, Hannity, et. al.

I’m so sick and tired of being branded a coward and traitor because I was on the fence until seeing Powell’s speech, then realized the whole game was total BS.

So to the neocons who are destroying the country I love as well as a distant country I and they don’t really understand, I say “Bring it on!”.

Many of you have bought into the “Iraq is a disaster” mantra and can’t see thru the fog of BS. It’s not really fog it’s your pre disposed mind set. And anything you can digest to support it leads you believe you’re view is right.

Iraq is not a failure, it’s a war. Mistakes are made and people die, corrective action is taken and you strive for progress and victory not failure and defeat. The battlefield is fluid and changes in tactics and strategy are required to be made on a daily basis.

The point that Mr Klien makes is valid and something that I have believed since soon after the invasion began. Most of you that consider yourselves Democrats or part of the antiwar crowd are offended by these views because your beliefs are grounded in sincerity and you’ve allowed yourselves to be brainwashed by the agenda driven media which plays right into your mindset. You refuse to believe that our elected officials would be so corrupted by their desire for power that they would sacrifice American lives. That’s why I and many others will never forgive or forget the actions of much of the media and many of our politicians from both parties.

Our politicians should debate and disagreements are to be expected. But once we have commited ourselves to an expedition as dangerous as invading Iraq the debate should have focused on how best to win there. Instead it has turned into a contest to see how best to make the administration look bad so one party can defeat the other.

Disgusting and unacceptable. We must hold them accountable.

Sentry -

Your premise, while cute, manages to entirely miss the point. You state, with all the ignorant naivete of one who supported the adventure in Iraq, that once “we” have committed ourselves to war, the debate should focus on how best to win. Were this sort of vapid assessment not so commonplace amng the wonderful collection of inbred bumpkins and ill-read policy amateurs that make up the right-wing of the American electorate, it would not even be worthy of the minimal effort required to debunk it. “We” did not decide to go to war. “You” and your army of confuscating nabobs and yes-men decided to illegally invade another nation and dragged the rest of us along with you. One of the problems is that the debate on whether or not to invade a nation never happened, thanks to the tongue-wagging lap-poodles in the media and the constant xenophobic chorus of the rabidly anti-intellectual right-wing in this country. Your arguments cannot stand up to scrutiny – most absurdly racist understandings of history and politics crumble under even the most cursory glance – so the alternative is to offer lies and fear in place of honest debate. Save your pious platitudes about holding politicians accountable for the call-in hour of a Rush Limbaugh masturbation fest. Hold yourself accountable for the lack of original thought and a rather adorable inability to offer anything except pick-up truck insights into issues far too complicated to be explained by bumper stickers and fox news roundtables.

“Support the war” You are not only a gullible dumass, you are also blind and you must have a thick layer of wool to keep you warm this winter.

“No initiators of war in recent history have achieved the intended results; in fact, in almost all cases, those resorting to force have ultimately undermined their own security and stature.” Sound familiar?

Didn’t we win the war? You know, the regime fell, we occupied the country, all that. Of course, the occupation has been maybe the most bungled enterprise in U.S. history. So shouldn’t war supporters be called “occupation” supporters? Then again, the question “Don’t you root for your country to win an occupation once it has started?” doesn’t make any sense, so occupation supporters won’t like that. How about those of us who were right all long about what a stupid idea the invasion was should be asking what is the goal of the occupation.

would anyone actually risk thier lives to protect the way of life of “the short fat guy with the gun”? I thought that was what police,courts and jails are setup to stop.

Nobody HOPES for the war to end badly. Any jackass who did is implicitly calling for the needless death and suffering of thousands of American troops, not to mention that tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians struggling to forge a new democracy.

The reality though is that the war is going badly. Absence of cultural understanding (how many Congressmen know the difference between Shia and Sunni?), absence of a viable strategy achieve a decisive victory, absence of objectives tied to achieving a decisive victory, presence of too many military restrictions designed to be PC-towards Muslims while ignoring the fact that we’re dealing with an assymetric enemy who will use anything at his disposal to win… All of this contributes to a doomed policy in Iraq.

forget why we went?–the lies are clear-no wmd’s—an now-no more Saddam–now give the country to the ‘liberated’ our dear president was so concerned about–and let him use those troops for his next pickle–Iran—if we have any troops left–or money—send them to Syria–or send Bush an his buddies walking–asap

The column accurately points out one of the most infuriating characteristics of the “war supporters”. Most of their premises for the war (except “Saddam needs to be taken out) have been shown to be mistaken or falsehoods. The views of the pragmatists who opposed the war — not because of fear of military defeat, but because of the obvious danger of getting caught in an occupation quagmire– have been proven to be accurate.

So naturally, rather that realizing that they might have been wrong, the “war supporters” want to blame the people who were right, by using the old reliable:
“We’re at war; you oppose the war; therefore you want America to lose”. By the way, “Sentry”, this does mean you. As Mr. Taibbi points out, this is a load of crap.

And then, we have the ever-wonderful gotcha question: “Do you want America to win in Iraq?” Both of these lines of “thought” are completely dishonest. We are not at war in Iraq — if we are, tell me who we are at war with? Iraq? We are an occupying force, because we won the war years ago.

If you want to claim that I want America to “lose”, or if you want to ask me if I want America to “win”, you first have to define what you mean by “win” and “lose”.
Otherwise, you are just flapping your jaw to emit emotionally-charged words because you have no brain processes engaged.

Joe Klein spoke at my college in 2003. Two of the main points he made were–
1. All these antiwar people are the REAL danger to American, and
2. Dennis Kucinich is the MOST EVIL person in the presidential race, because he advocated a stupid and unrealistic immediate pullout from Iraq.

Fuck you, Joe Klein. Idiot.

What if China decided we have an illegal and corrupt government? What if they decided we started an illegal war in Iraq much as saddam started his war in Kuwait, and felt they needed to remove the government and replace it with one more in line with their own interests? Would you welcome them as liberators, even if you disliked or even hated bush? Would you be an insurgent?

I’ll keep it short and simple. We may have been led into war under false pretenses, but we’re there now, and if we pull out they will surely follow. We will be seen as weak, and country pride aside, it would be a disaster to allow a powerfull alliance to form in the middle east. They WILL seek to take us down, and I don’t know about you, but 3100+ of our brothers and sisters lives would be a waste if we don’t see this through. This is not to say I’m happy about it, or that I agree with the method. We need to understand that while a democracy works well for us, they have lived differently as far back as their civilization goes, and pushing for this sort af “Americanization” will only make them resentful. We need to find a soloution that’s appropriate for the cultures involved, and we need to get the hell out of there, though that seems far from a viable option for some time. I understand anti-terrorism, but when is our part done? The Pres needs to put preasure on Iraq to take care of it’s self, and ball up on a definative time line.

“if we pull out they will surely follow”

Says who? Why is this conjecture touted as an irrefutable fact?

“We will be seen as weak, and country pride aside, it would be a disaster to allow a powerfull alliance to form in the middle east.”

Do we have any “country shame” for what we have done? A “powerful alliance” hasn’t broken out in the middle east for a thousand years, Why is that going to happen exactly now?

“3100+ of our brothers and sisters lives would be a waste if we don’t see this through.”

How many more of our brothers and sisters will it take to “see it through” and what exactly do you mean by that?

“3100+ of our brothers and sisters lives would be a waste if we don’t see this through”

Wow, classic bullshit, just like the article stated. We criminally wasted 3,100 of our service members’ lives, so that’s a great reason to waste 3,100 more!

And then the old fear-mongering standby:

“if we pull out they will surely follow. We will be seen as weak, and country pride aside, it would be a disaster to allow a powerfull alliance to form in the middle east. They WILL seek to take us down”

My thinking is that the more we show ourselves to be corrupt and stupid, the more we invite attack. And boy is the welcome mat out on THAT one!

America had a fundamental decision to make after the 9/11 attacks. Sorry to say, we made the wrong one. We could have done one of two things. Attack fundamental Islam, which is like attacking road rage, or make a deliberate effort to distance ourselves from that region. That would require either drilling for our own oil, or funding an all-out effort to get off oil. Since we’re not going to be drilling our shores for more oil, getting off oil would have been the other option to attacking Jihad. Let’s also realize that Jihad has been around for thousands of years, OK? Let’s not act as though it’s ‘building strength’. Anyway, imagine how much closer to being off of oil if we had that 600 billion to spend. Borrow a little more, and imagine how far a trillion would go…….
Now, all arguments for or against this Iraq war are meaningless. The fundamental topic of discussion is this: How much longer are we going to allow the oil industry to control foreign policy? Bush, himself, admitted that when he says the word ‘national security’, he’s talking about oil.

OK, let me clarify. I think there woould be a goo possibility of them “following” us because they already stepped up when they attacked us on 9/11. Leaving would, in their eyes, be a sign of weakness. Don’t you think that would enbolden them? They have already shown better technology in their Iraq attacks. With Iraq in turmoil, it would be easy for Iran (who is currently working on refinning uranium) to come in and sweep up, taking resources with them. Yes, there should be American shame. WE have no right to assume we should overturn their government, and their entire way of life. Our objective should have been limited to Terrorism and that alone. Great, we took Sadam out, kudos, but we’ve done a lot of dammage. And what I mean regarding our brothers and sisters is that they lost their lives in this, and not even staying to the point where there is some internal stabillity, and enough government control to keep terrorists from hiding out and taking over, and to give the people of Iraq some chance of less fearfull existence would sort of be like they died in vain. I don’t want to lose any more people, one was too many. And yes, there were far better ways to spend all that money, but like I said, we’re in it now, and we have to do dammage control.

Police officers will tell you that when they respond to a domestic violence call and attempt to subdue an abusive husband, they ALWAYS have to know where the wife is. Often, she’s sneaking up behind one of the cops, ready to swing a cast-iron skillet at the back of his head.

No matter how bad the status quo, her fear of the unknown is worse. So for that moment, the officer is actually the bigger threat to her.

So, is the cop wrong for intervening?

What if it’s not a cop, but a neighbor, who intervenes? Or is it none of the neighbor’s business?

I know what you’re thinking, but the correct answer is actually the following: Bush lied to the cop; the cop called for back-up; the dispatcher sent a helicopter; Halliburton supplied the helicopter; exhaust from the helicopter caused the polar icecaps to melt; the rise in sea level flooded California, Arizona, and New Mexico; now Bush’s ranch in Texas is oceanfront property, and worth $ many millions.

But he’s too dumb to come up with the plan on his own–it was actually Lex Luthor’s plan in the first Superman movie. (An interesting sidenote: Bush put a stop to stemcell research so that Christopher Reeve would die, causing USA Network to re-run the movie, which W. could then watch to see if he got all the details right.)

Richie C hit the nail on the head!

Leaving Vietnam won us the Cold War. Had Reagan seen that, we could have avoided the arms buildup that gave the ILLUSION of bankrupting the Soviet Union.

Incidentally, the Cold War is not yet over. Our opponents are re-grouping, learning from their mistakes, waiting to take us on again.

Great article, you have exposed Klien for what he is; a flip-flopping suck up.

I couldn’t care less if you showed us some of your venim and God forbid used some foul language that offended some people.

In the final analysis, you pointed out the hypocracy and lies of Klein and others like him.

Keep up the good, nay “GREAT” work.

John:

I agree. The fact that our victory in the cold war is coming unraveled is yet another dark tragedy associated with a failed election in the year 2000.

I take some comfort that every day more and more sons and daughters of the revolution (1776) are rising up against the new King George.

“I think there would be a good possibility of them “following” us because they already stepped up when they attacked us on 9/11.”

There was a definite escalation in the damage by the 9/11 terrorist attack compared to previous attacks here in America, but the problem with statements like that is very subtle. The word “they” is used in that statement to refer to the 9/11 terrorists but also is implying that we’re talking about Iraqi’s as well. There wasn’t a single Iraqi highjacker.
Would we make Iraqi’s bolder if we took away our occupying force and stopped bombing their country? Happier maybe, but perhaps the real question is how many terrorists have we Created and how many more terrorists are we Creating the longer we stay there? We talk about the 3,100+ soldiers that have died there, a terrible, terrible price. There have been estimates of 3,000 to as high as 15,000 Iraqi’s dying Every Month. Are their sacrifices unworthy of mention? Children, Old Folks, Women, babies, They can’t all be insurgents, can they? Even if we don’t count them and the sacrifices they made simply by being there, are we creating and then killing thousands of insurgents and terrorists Every Month? Every family in the entire country has had someone in their family die.
Might it not seem to a young Iraqi that the “cure” we’re giving them is far worse than the disease they had?

There is more and more buzz about Iran, similar to the unsubstantiated propaganda that was passed out as truth and used to justify attacking Iraq.

Even if it were all true, as difficult as it is to put yourself in someone elses shoes, wouldn’t you want a nuclear device to protect yourself if several of your neighbor countries had them, (Israel,India,Pakistan,Egypt?, Libya?) a foreign country had attacked, taken over, and 4 years later still occupies the country next to you (which coincidentally sits on alot of oil, same as your country does), called you an axis of evil, threatened to attack you and had the forces already in place to do so, along with an unintended “mandate” allowing the foreign country to do virtually anything they wanted in the name of “fighting terror”
Wouldn’t all that make you want something, anything, to protect youself?

After all the lies justifying the war against Iraq, Why would anyone accept anything from the current administration without absolute incontrovertable proof, preferably from several other countries before believing anything attempting to promote yet another war?

Thanks again, Matt. You are my favorite. I’ve been reading you since The eXile.

Now please tell us what you think of the whole Plame / Wilson / Libby / Russert / etc. affair.

And when will Rolling Stone cover the impending Civil War that this conservative vs. liberal tit-for-tat so sadly represents?

Klein was your friend? I’d hate to see you get off on an enemy.

Let me say that I never ment to imply that all Iraqis are “they”. What I ment was that in an unoccupied Iraq, terrorist such as the Taliban, and many other enemies we’ve made would have a “safe haven” from which to work. Saying that all Iraqis are our enemies is like saying that all Americans are responsible, and behind the war.

what would anyone expect from Iran and Syria to do?
wait quitely until the U.S. finishes it’s job in Iraq and then… Turn on them????
Are Americans really so naive?
may be this adminstration is, in it’s rush to acheive maximum possible on two tracks: Oil and security of Israel.
Both are of course a prioroty for this adminstration since it stole the elctions from Al Gore’s team.

Of course all the region will fight the Americans in Iraq,
Iran ,Syria, even the Saudis,
yes, dont be surprised America is really hated deeply all over the place that it’s a pleasure to watch American soldiers killed every day.
Of course the price is high but it does really worth it.
People passionatly enjoy seeing that down here,and they like it more if it involves some mutilation, as a show of real deep hatred.
this is what Bush ,sorry ,Chenny rather is planting.
what they will harvest?
who cares……

Tom, you left out some important information: not only did Bush steal the 2000 election, but he also bombed the WTC and Pentagon, and he’s hiding the Area 56 aliens in the Lincoln Bedroom.

You’ve got to keep your conspiracies straight.

P.S. I’ve seen video that clearly shows Cheney on the Grassy Knoll. He claims it was an unfortunate hunting accident.

I suppose if Bush was a pedophile that old dude (Steve Ret USAF) who wrote in would still want him respected just because he holds the office. You must have been exposed to too much agent orange in Nam!! A criminal is a criminal, no matter what office he holds!! What a whack!! Maybe God can lead you somewhere out of your delusions!!!

Denise, it is you who are the “whack”.

I think that Captain Steve (that “old dude” you disrespected) has it about right.

You can disagree with Bush and feel that his policies are wrong while still respecting the office of the President of the United States. It seems to me that is all that he was saying.

For example, even after Clinton was impeached I respected the Presidential office that he held.

On a personal level, I wouldn’t want Clinton near my daughter, just as you would have no interest in dining with or even chatting with Bush, but they are both Presidents and the position they held(hold) deserves our respect even if the man who held(holds) it doesn’t, in your own view, deserve your respect.

Cheers!

America can win in Iraq by moving to the sidelines and enlisting Iran’s help. We need to help our country do this by changing to a strategy of “smart fighting” instead of “stupid fighting.”

Unfortunately, if we let them, Bush and Company are going to attack Iran and triple the size of the mess they’ve created in the middle east. I think we can all agree that creating more chaos makes us less secure…terrorists love chaos.

i think the article by Tom Haibibi illustrates the point of being true to your words. He gave good reasons why certain media writers have betrayed their sense of integrity in different matters about which they write or speak about. I thought his article was humorous but very telling about some media personalities of our modern era. I guess much of the fault lies with the culture or type of work that they do. The media of our modern times has so many nooks and crannies, that one must be familiar with its structure and its mechanisms, before one can get to the nitty gritty of an article or some statement made by a member from within. I have never met Klein, but I did appreciate the scrutiny that Mr Haibibi rendered, when examing Klein’s wishy washy attitude to very serious issues that affect the whole world. I also think that a lot of people come onto these blogs to vent their ignorance…and in so doing, hog a lot of good space that could be used for more intelligent discussion.

my apologies. I meant to say Tom Taibbi

Moe,

Gee it’s that simple huh? It isn’t hard? Then why can’t Bush stabilize Iraq?

I love idiots who think in terms of black and white. This kind of stupidity is what got us into this war “you’re either with us or against us,” and it’s the same stupidity that will keep us “staying the course” of a failed policy. Like a moron who keeps walking into a wall, expecting it to turn into a door.
(Maybe if he runs…)

In your diagnosis of the Iraqi war you didn’t mention Sunnis, Shiites or Kurds once. This shows how little you know about the Iraq war and how unqualified you are to make judgements about fighting it. The fact is much of the Iraq army is infiltrated by Shiia death squads. The Iraqi government (which could not survive without Al Sadr, the Shiia strongman) is comprised of people who either don’t give a fuck sunnis are being killed or who actively try to kill them. So we could stand up an Iraqi army, but what if that army consists only of Shiia who then go about slaughtering all the Sunnis after we leave?

The main thing you don’t understand is that we are dealing with an ancient people who have a 1,300 year old blood feud. The only way to keep these people from killing each other is either to separate them or to appoint another Saddam type strongman.

“Do you want America to win in Iraq?”

Of course I do. But not if it takes 100 years (”this war will last for the rest of our lifetime”) of failing and thousands of American lives to get there. Instead I support winning in Iraq by dividing Iraq up into 3 countries: one Shiia, one Sunni and one Kurd.

I will bet anyone in here $500 that Iraq will be partitioned. It is what every person in that country wants. Bush doesn’t want it because it makes him look like the alchoholic failure he is. So basically, our troops are dying because of Bush’s pride.

That is light years behind getting your dick sucked by a white house intern.

” blind faith in bad leadership is not patriotism”

I admit it. I was wrong about the war. I believed Cheney and Bush and their puppet masters: Feith, Scooter Libby, Wolfowitz, Bill Kristol, David Frum, Abrams, Perle, and the rest of the Israel lobby that got us into this war. Saddam WAS a threat to Israel. He WAS NOT a threat to America. However, his survival as dictator was an ongoing embarrassment to the Bush family.
My first impression that there was a massive reality denial epidemic at the White House was when Bush landed the plane on that aircraft carrier and claimed “Mission Accomplished” the date was May 1, 2003.
Baghdad fell when the Army pulled the Saddam statue down on April 9, 2003. This was followed by three weeks of looting, pillaging and total disorder from April 10 to April 30 due to NO POSTWAR PLAN. Why no postwar plan? Because it would have delayed the invasion, and the REALITY of what we were doing might have set in. Then Bush does this airplane carrier landing “Mission Accomplished” thing on May 1. Incredible. $700 billion of our dollars and 3,000 of our guys killed. Incredible.
But I still believed, Bush and the warmongers couldn’t be THAT crazy. I WAS WRONG.
I was in Iraq as a civilian US govt employee for 19 months in 2004-2005. At dinner sometimes, someone would bring up “Hey, what’s the plan? Who had the plan for after the invasion?” All of us figured someone else had the plan. All of us were wrong.

dr

Faith is hoping for things not seen, is that not in itself: BLIND?

Patriotism involves LOYALTY & TRUST. Loyalty to your leaders YOU HAVE FAITH that they are leading you to an honorable victory.

When I became aware of the lies that Nixon was dealing out to us young men, most all of us agreed the war was not as it should be.

When the chance came, we all got the heck out of there: the correct way. It took time, but we did it the RIGHT way.

I am not proud of our leaders as I look back, just as I ma dismayed at Bush’s policy from what seemed to be a sure victory, to a REAL stick in the mud problem.

Do not give up HOPE for your leaders. There are ways to help the situation get better. BE POSITIVE, DO THINGS TO HELP THE VETS, VOICE YOUR CONCERNS IN A REAL WAY. No yelling & cursing at the people in charge.

BE ABOVE REPROACH lest any man may disregard your testimony. Then you will see the harvest you bring in.

May you evening tonight be a grand one!

Good night & God Bless! really…
Steve “mi casa es tu casa”

Mr. Desret RAT MAY have a point about the post war plan. Rumsfeld and Powell were both right. The leaner meaner force to win the war, and then overwhelming force to win the peace.

The “Israel Lobby” as you so ignorantly put it, had far less to do with the war than John Edwards [on the Senate Intel Commitee and voted for the war], Jay Rockafellar [also on intel commitee], and Hillary Clinton, whose “husband” actually got the Iraq Liberation Act passed in about 1998.

The Clintons repeatedly cited Saddam’s ties to all kinds of terrorists, including al Qaida [see the original indictment for the 1998 embassy bombings, justification for the al Shifa strike, and William Cohen's 9-11 Commission testimony, ETC...]

The politics that are being played with intelligence on BOTH sides of the isle is scary.

THE TRUTH, AS USUAL, is somewhere in the middle. Bush has been a moron, and so have the democrats.

IRAQ COMPLETELY LEFT AS A FAILED STATE SHOULD BE A NON-STARTER IN THE U.S. CONGRESS.

Is this a blog for personal attacks on other bloggers or spiteful rants about nothing in particular? I thought the topic was at the top of the page. Please gentlemen – at least try to move on from the last topic and try to string a reasonable line of discussion together, without getting into the name-calling quagmire. Let us all – have a civil discussion and leave the ego massaging at home.

Analogy apearing on this board a lot:
-Pulling out of Vietnam won the US the cold war.
-So: Pulling out of Iraq would win the war for the hearts and minds of radical Muslims.

Reality: Nothing could be farther from the truth. Ask the Israelis what their goodwill gestures of pulling out of Lebanon, and Gaza – both of which are [for all intents-and-purposes] an internationally recognized border = MORE TERROR!

THE PEOPLES OF THE MIDDLE EAST MUST NOT MISTAKE OUR KINDNESS FOR WEAKNESS.

FINISH THE JOB!

gary, more lebanese and palestinian civilians have died than Israeli citizens since the withdrawal ( if you can call it a withdrawal) from the gaza and lebanon. When you consider that both Lebabon and the Gaza have nothing in the way militarily of replying to attacks from the air and the ground as the more powerful nation, and you see the devastation of their streets and cities…you don’t need to wonder why there is an adverse reaction from factions without these two regions. What bothers a lot of obvservers like myself, is the silence of other powerful nations, as they stand by and watch defenceless nations being torn asunder. Was it necessary to stand by and watch over a thousand lebanese people die before someone from the more powerful nations did anything? And you wonder why there is so much distrust and resentment

Hndenberg G. Crew,

That’s Richard Perle, not Clarke.

and you seem to forget the A.Q. Khan Network the CIa/MI6 exposed which of course caused Libya to voluntarily disclose that their WMD programS.

This also exposed Iran’s purchasing of nuclear materials on the black market, including the centerfuges and a host of other nasty items.

The fact that this network was disrupted is the only reason Iran does not have nukes yet.

and btw, nobody has told me what was in the 18-wheeler truckloads we have satellite photos of heading from Iraq to Syria before the war. Syria, of course, is where most of the former Ba’athists in Iraq fled to = BECAUSE THEY ARE ALSO BA’ATHIST.

Gary Jacobs – Yes, you are right. That’s neocon Richard PERLE’s letter to USA today.

The US had several satellites launched in the mid 1990s to track every inch of Iraq. Guess the lenses needed cleaning in Jan 2001.

Alan379?!?

The fact that more civillians have died in Gaza or Lebanon since those withdrawls is an obfustication.

Whhen faced with **FASCISM** THAT CONSTANTLY CALLS FOR YOUR GENOCIDAL DESTRUCTION, SOME FORCE MAY BE REQUIRED.

Israel is FAR from perfect, and I have many problems with how they handle things, SOME TIMES. However, the arabs have had many many chances for peace, and they refuse every time. Read Dennis Ross’ “The Missing Peace”.

Then go back to the Paris Peace talks in 1919 and the deal between Chiam Weizman and Emir Feisal.

You will undoubtedy find the name of Haj Amin Al-Huesseini. Hitler’s right hand man, Yasser Arafat’s Uncle, and a leading protagonist of the Holocaust.

This feels like the 1930’s for good reason.

you will not stop the nuclear arms race. Unfortunately, the ownership of these dangerous weapons are no longer exclusive to a small powerful group. It is foolishness to think that preventing every nation who wants to own these dangerous weapons, will restrict the control to just the few. What should worry all who inhabit this planet, is what will we all do, when someone decides to start a nuclear war? Have any of you read the bible yet? I assure you, there is far more security in that book, than relying on human wisdom….or stupidity….to prolong human existence on this planet…

Alan379:

One more thing: You obviously missed the fact the most of the populations in both Gaza and South Lebanon are complicit in Islamo-fascist terror.

The recent Lebanon war saw the most documentation yet of ARABS USING HUMAN SHILEDS.

Israel has many questions to answer for the use of cluster bombs, and a few other details I would like to know. But seeing towns like Bint Jbail fortified by Hezbollah by using houses to hide rockets, mines and more… C’MON WITH INNOCENT CIVILLIAN WRAP ON ISRAEL ALL THE TIME.

HEZBOLLAH’S WHOLE GAME WAS FIRING RICKETS AT CITIES BLINDLY. KILLING ARABS IN THE PROCESS.

If the arabs laid down their weapons their would be peace, security for everyones holy places, and 2 states.
IF Israel laid down her weapoons right now = HOLOCAUST 2: Islamic Nazis

All this chest beating is crap. Haibibi is quite correct in his assessment of Klein and all you apologists.

I loathe Bush and make no apologies for it. That isn’t the same as loathing the office of president but that office is defined in four year increments by the person holding the office. Unfortunately, all the morons who voted for Bush in 2000 and, worse, 2004 despite mountains of evidence of his incompetence stuck everybody with a pig-in-a-poke. He has been a dilettante his entire adult life in all his endeavours in the military, business, and politics. In less than two years, someone else will be president and will define the office, again. For our nation’s sake, I hope it is someone with a lot more on the ball than this current cretin.

You cynical bastards who claim millions of us want defeat in Iraq just because we want to see Bush and the GOP crushed are full of shit. You want someone to blame for the irredeemable disasters this war and president are. I don’t want the nation of the U.S.A. to ever fail, but when we put ideologues in power, we risk the kind of mindset that leads to stupid decisions based on ideology rather than clear assessments of the facts. So stop your whining and look within yourselves to decide why you continue to support someone who is clearly leading us to failure on a grand scale. I rather doubt you truly want the U.S. to fail, but that is where we are heading if we continue doing those things that haven’t worked in six plus years. The consequences of the boneheaded policies between January 2000 and January 2009 will not cease to exist just because Bush is back in Crawford clearing brush. The blowback from foolhardy foreign policies, the incredible debt incurred under Reagan, Bush 1, and Bush 2, and the results of shortsighted domestic policies will haunt this nation for many years to come. My grandchildren and yours will be paying the price long after we are dead.

I offer my apology for misspelling the author’s name so badly.

Nuclear Arms Proliferation:

We better get our posture straight quick, and do all we can in the mean time. Just because a job is tough, you don’t give up [Iraq].

Recognize mistakes, adjust, move forward to the best of our ablility.

Problem: Facsism finds you my friends.

Solution: That’s a tough word to use, however: squeezing the Nation States invloved in nefarious activity is a must. The financial squeeze in on both Iran and N. Korea. The difference is, Kim Jong Il just wants power and money, armageddon for the return 12th Imam Mahdi so Islam can rule the world is not real high on his list,

Source of Arms: China, Russia – The source of most arms flowing to Islamic-Fascists. Solving the Petro-Blackmale problem the Arabs and Russians have on people is the key to most problems of clarity in foreign policy.

gary, three soldiers were kidnapped by a group in lebanon. yet over a thousand lebanese people died….their cities turned to rubble…their roads blown asunder, so that not even ambulances can get to the dead…and all of this, while the rest of the world stood by and watched. In the Gaza, one soldier was taken captive….yet over 600 palestinians died….you tell me…who is over-reacting? since when do those figures support your claim that one nation is causing another nation more harm? Israel is the only middle eastern nation with nuclear arms…palestinians and lebanese do not own nuclear weapons, nor do they have a airforce…so it seems heavily lopsided when it comes to military reaction to any conflict between the powerful and the militarily weak. I think the situation has gone too far now….the resentment is now all that drives the unhappy parties to react…

As I see it, there are several different problems and several different wars here. Bush’s Mission Accomplished was meant to signal the successful defeat of Saddam’s regime, an apparent military victory against the “state” of Iraq. That was the simple, easy part, and I don’t think many people doubted our ability to succeed. But I wonder if we really did achieve a military vicory in Iraq, by any measure.

But there was no planning, except if having no plan constitutes a plan, for the post Saddam situation. And then, to make matters worse, the Baath party was made into a complete pariah, and all members considered to have a sort of guilt by association, and the armed forces of iraq were dissolved. These were steps that created enemies where none needed to exist.

Following that we have a war against the Sunnis and Shiites and a war between them as well. And now we have made another mess by turning the country over to the Shiites following a “vote’ that was not much more than a census. Each of these mistakes has created its own separate war.

So which war are we against? Which war do we want to win, or lose? Would would winning look like, and how likely an event is winning? Or have we already lost in each one of these wars?

How does the US win an an Iraqi civil war? After all, to be blunt about it, the US is not really one of the parties to the civil war. We certainly don’t want to stay in Iraq forever…Or do we? Suppose we back the “winning” side, which then goes on to murder the opposition? Is that winning?

Then, worse still, as I understand our current situation under the applicable military conventions, if we in fact “won” the initial military phase of this series of wars, as some might say we did, we cannot just walk away from our occupation of the country because we have an obligation to remain as an administrative entity, and to guarantee the security of the citizens and the country. Of course, we are utterly failing at this. We took an existing state and we have created what amounts to a failed state. How does this help us? Of course it just creates more poverty and fertile ground for religious extremists.

Are we better off staying or going? But Bush knows that going is not really an option, unless he admits that we have already lost.

I think the problem that is gradually becoming apparent is that we have already lost the occupation stage that followed the apparent, if illusory, military victory, and we are now in another, clearly much more difficult undertaking altogether. This third stage, which seems to consist of establishing political reconciliation between the several now waring parties, may well be beyond the Bush Administration, not just on an intellectual basis, although that problem is real enough, but because the Bush administration made the errors that led to the problems. Probably only a new face, a new leader, one not responsible in any way for this mess, could resolve it.

Rooting for the Bush administration to fail? The military may have an obligation to obey and honor Bush as Commander in Chief, but the average citizen has no such obligation. In fact, the ordinary citizen may have an obligation to oppose, in almost every way, and certainly by mere words, a stupid or foolish war, as this one clearly was. For that matter, Bush may have forfeited his right to any type or measure of loyalty from the people by his deceit and misuse of information in providing justification for the war. Or, if not for that reason, for his stupid and misguided strategies in pursuit of and following the war. I mean, whose idea was it to bomb and destroy the intelligence ministry and the telephone exchanges, and to dissolve the Baath party and the army? Who made Donald Rumsfeld the Secretary of Defense? Why wasn’t he asked to resign when it became apparent that he had no ability to deal with the post-Mission Accomplished situation?

These may all sound like intellectual issues, but they are real as well, and that reality is gradually sinking in to the American public. Considering that we have already lost, what we are talking about is the best way to withdraw.

Hindenberg G. Crew:

You have the human shield stories a tad mixed. I was referring Hezbollah co-opting people’s homes.

You seem to be referring to Hamas, The Al Aqsa Murder Brigade or one of the other Pal’ terror org.s that have co-opted the neighborhoods of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

Some call the story you posted on human shields Israel trying to avoid a gun battle by having a friendly neighbor ring on a terrorists door, and presuade them to come out. If Israel wanted to simply drop a 1000 lbs bomb on a house, THEY WOULD. ASK SALEH SHEHADA! HE **WAS** ISRAEL’S AYMAN AL ZAWAHARI “EQUIVILENT” IN HAMAS.

Alan379:

Over Reacting? I would say reacting stupidly! The way the Olmert govt. handled the war was very lame.

Frankly I think they under reacted to Hezbollah, and slightly [I do mean slightly] over reacted to Lebanon. They should have had the balls to send in 40,000 ground troops early and really take advantage of surprise to clear out the Katushas.

This not the first incident since the withdrawl from lebanon by Hezbollah. You also seem to forget that they fired rockets into Israeli towns a s a diversion for the kidnapping. No country can tolerate this and it is grounds for war.

ISRAEL FAILED TO ROUTE HEZBOLLAH MORE THOROUGHLY. OLMERT IS WEAK AND PATHETIC. BRING BACK BIBI [BENJAMIN] NETANYAHU. HE HAS LEARNED FROM HIS PAST MISTAKES.

gary, the rockets being fired into Israel from the Gaza have been described as being crudely made weapons. Hardly the same as a guided missile. And the kidnapping of three soldiers by Hezbollah, is hardly an attack by the Lebanese nation. And I hardly think that sending in 40,000 soldiers into Lebanon was going to do Israel any favors on the international front, since that would be seen as an “act of aggression” way out of proportion to the kidnapping of three soldiers. As in both cases, Israel has negotiated the exchange of prisoners in the past… and they have made no big deal about it. International pressure is what made Israel hand back the Gaza strip, and it will probably be international pressure or isolation, that will curb the tendency again to pound unarmed civilians with state of the art weapons of war. There was a claim back in 2001 that all the occupied territories of Israel, which were illegally occupied and subject to UN scrutiny, were to have been handed back to palestinians by 2005, but at present only the Gaza has been given back, and the other 23 occupied territories are still being held. No doubt, when these territories are handed back to their designated owners…peace will have some chance.

Alan379,

Nasrallah openly said he has 12,000 rockets aimed at Norther Israel. Haifa, obviously in range, has A HUGE CHEMICAL INDUSTRY. IT’S A MINI HOLOCAUST WAITING TO HAPPEN.

And btw…until Hezbollah’s withdrawl of their ministers and attempted fascist coup of the govt in Lebanon THEY HAD 9 MINISTERS IN THE GOVT. S. LEBANON is “jokingly” referred to as Hizbullah-land.

LEBANON MUST DECIDE ITS PATH. They have been shown in stark detail just a glimpse of what the Hizbollah path might lead to. Israel has tried the withdrawl as a gesture of goodwill path.

Now its time to shore up that position and make it one of strength. Militarily, Diplomaticly, and every other way possible. Until Hezbollah starts the next round of war.

Alan379,

1 mo thang:
Obviously Israel has the right to attack the smuggling routes Hezbollah uses from Syria to stop the flow of reinforcements during the course of the war. As well as blockade Lebanons coastline.

Hezbollah is not just some litlle rag-tag terror group. One US Senator or Congress person called al Qaida the B team of terrorists, and Hizbollah the A team.

Hezb. is an extension of Iran and Syria. It is eating away at the rest of Lebanon like a fascist cancer

Your connection to Klein can make him the object of your spite, but he is just one of many trying to pass the blame of the Iraq screw-up on the public-at-large. Somehow, those of us that have had no input or control have done or are doing something to have a negative impact on this glorious conquest. It must not be apparent to these folks that most of the country is polically somewhere in the middle and they are the extreme.
So Saddam sucked, a sentiment I spouting off about in ‘89 while our govt. was calling him “a force for moderation in the middle-east”, but I never imagined the fuck-story we now have. To all the cheerleaders, note: when your team is down, it’s usually hard to find the motivation to cheer!

Gary, you read too much propaganda and dont stick to the facts. And when you do state facts, you try to give it liberal dollops of your opinion. Hezbollah was formed because of the Israeli occupation of lebanon, and for no other reason. Israel is still holding thousands of political prisoners from Lebanon and Palestinian people…and their overreaction to the kidnapping of their soldiers, has led to more unnecessary cruel deaths of civilians. You do not string together a valid argument for anything that you have proposed so far…except to make Israel even more reprehensible for unloaded weaponry on a population that cannot fight back. As was said before…you will not stop the nuclear arms race, or stop people with cruelty. Excuses will not save the day, Gary.

Just heard minority leader Boner talk about the war in iraq saying that if we don’t succeed ‘the terrorist will follow us here’. Which begs the question? Is that what happened with vietnam? Seems the same issue was raised then, but it wasn’t terrorists that followed us but alot of refugees so desperate to get out that they even fashioned bathtubs into votes. Will we be accepting a large number of arab refugees after the hostilities in Iraq are over(if ever)?
We can’t seem to keep bloods and crips from shooting each other up in LA as well as anyone unfortunate to be standing in their way, what makes us think we are capable of policing a civil war between well armed and funded motivated individuals?

In my last writing, I apologize for these misspellings:
fallacy
having
communist
withholding

I was in too much of a hurry. I will strive to improve my prose in future writings.

Richie C,

There have been plenty of mistakes in Iraq to be sure. You seem to forget that the Nazi insurgency lasted about 7 years after WWII.

“Democracy” in Iraq is not going to be perfect. In the long run, It sure will be better than keeping Saddam, if we succeed.

Germany and Japan both had democracy stuffed down their throats. This time we have taken a “kinder/gentler” approach [still a work in progress] instead of fire-bombing cities.

Frankly, the US has done too much of “letting the Iraqis take the lead”, and not enough of providing actual security.

Give Petreus a chance. He has a good plan, and has a proven track record of pacifying a major mixed [ethnicly] city – Mosul.

Also, The Sunni tribes of Anbar have recently joined the Shi’ite led govt to fight al’ Qaida 30-6. There are still a small handfull of tribes aligned with terror. Now is the time to take the intiative and see this through.

aslan379,

Israel’s presence in Lebanon is a convenient excuse for propagandists to use as the sole reason Hezbollah was formed.

You may remember a 15 year civil war in Lebanon in which every group had it’s own private army? Hezbollah was the Shi’ite/Iranian faction. They battled with Amal for a while, and then Iran [with Syria's help] told Amal that Hizbollah wins, and they will be taking the lead on behalf of the Shi’ites. This stoped most Shi’ite infighting in Leb. Except against the moderates that actually joined the Israeli backed SLA.

ASLAN379:

EXCUSES:

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR INCITEMENT TO GENOCIDE. THERE IS ALSO NO EXCUSE FOR STARTING A WAR, AND THEN EXPECTING THE OTHER SIDE TO ABIDE BY SOME NARROW SET OF RULES A FASCIST ENEMY HAS LAID OUT. WHY SHOULD ISRAEL NOT RESPOND AGAINST A THREAT.

YOU WANT TO NARROW THE CONFLICT TO THE 2 SOLDIERS, BUT THAT IS A PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO BLAME ISRAEL FOR EVERYTHING.

HIZBOLLAH STARTED A WAR, JUST BECAUSE THEY SPENT THEIR MONEY ON MISSLES INSTEAD OF BOMB SHELTERS TO PROTECT THEIR CITIZENS IS NOT ISRAEL’S FAULT.

BECAUSE HEZBOLLAH PUT THEIR HEAD QUARTERS IN CIVLILIAN AREAS MEANS ISRAEL SHOULD NOT TARGET THEM. WRONG.

HEZBOLLAH OWES ITS POPULATION AN EXPLINATION FOR WHY THEY GOT USED IN THIS WAY.

OBVIOUSLY YOU OPINION HAS BEEN TAINTED BY SOME VERY BAD SOURCES, AND POSSIBLY SOME INNER FEELINGS THAT ISRAEL HAS NO RIGHT TO EXIST OF DEFEND HERSELF. SOMETIMES THE BEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD OFFENSE. ESPECIALLY WHEN 12,000 ROCKETS ARE AIMED AT YOUR LARGEST CHEMICAL PLANTS… NOT TO MENTION A COUPLE MILLION CIVILLIANS.

IF ISRAEL HAD THE TASTE FOR DEATH THE ARABS HAVE: AMMAN, CAIRO, DAMASCUS WOULD HAVE BEEN LEVELED IN ‘67, OR ‘73.

For all their talk about dems. not having any alternative plans, the reps. don’t have any either. This “surge” is more of the same. I opposed the war for the same reason I didn’t vote for Bush in the first place, I didn’t trust the man. Now those concerns have been born out and people still don’t want to see that we were right all along. I agree, it’s very frustrating. What’s worse, is now we’re expected to come up with an alternative plan for victory so that Bush can save his own ass, and if we don’t then we’re accused of being for failure. We’re in a no win situation where we’re being expected to clean up Bush’s mess. There is no way for the left to win this. All we can do now is just demand an investigation into how we got into this mess in the first place and congress to do it’s job and hold this administration accountable.

Richie C:
Very, very well said. It’s never more obvious to me that the intelligence of many Americans is lacking any kind of rationality when I hear arguments about “unpatriotic anti-war liberals”. People who live by the constitution are the real patriots. People who start and conduct pre-emptive occupations are the ones who are being un-american. Is it Americans’ way of hiding their racism by draping themselves with the flag during wartime?

the best way to protect us from hte ‘islamofascist’ is to make oil obsolete. $600 billion would have done that in a matter of a few years. We are foolish to believe that we have any friends in the middle east, soudis are the main backers of al-qaida and Iran of hezbolla, both those are fueled by their proceeds of petroleum. Close our ports of entry to anyone coming from the middle east and asia that is not fully vetted and has a real need to be here. That may sound isolationist, but we are at war, whether we realize it or not,with a great majority of the world abroad, it is time we started acting as such. There is no reason why we can’t be self sufficient and make this COUNTRY strong again instead of just an economic system that favors the wealthy. America is supposed to be for the people, not just the RICH PEOPLE.

Wouldn’t it be nice if we could put Joe Klein and all those other Bush butt-kisser, big media know -it-alls on a jet and drop them off about 35,000 feet above Baghdad? Without parachutes, of course.

“Lapdogs: How the Press Rolled Over for Bush” by Eric Boehlert is a great read.

give them parachutes and let them fend for themselves once and if they land safetly. Give them a ‘CIA rocks’ tatoo for good measure.

Wow. I didn’t realize how many people are so easy to give up. FDR, Dwight D. Eisenhower, George S. Patton, Douglas McArthur – they are all turning over in their graves about the debate here.

We should be coming up with ways to fix the situation, not retreat.

What would happen if today’s media had been around during the invasion of Normandy when it took 6 weeks to break out instead of the 6 days the plan envisioned? What about all the dead laying on those beaches? Would anyone have the stomach to see the war through and fix mistakes. Who knew Monty was going to stop for tea instead of take Caanes on the first day?

To Richie C,

BTW… while not perfectly analogous, the correlation between the German Insurgency an Ba’athist/al Qaida insurgency in Iraq is there – you simply choose not to aknowledge it.

The sectarian violence is another twist of fate the Shi’ites tried to stay above until the Golden Dome Bombing in Samarra.

Leaving now will only make things worse. FOR SO MANY SUPPOSEDLY LIBERAL PEOPLE TO WANT TO LEAVE BEHIND A GREATER HUMAN CATASTROPHE IN IRAQ THAN IS ALREADY TAKING PLACE IS SAD.

One more thing:

The Republicans have made countless mistakes in their time in power. However, in the area of intelligence, I would rather they lean in the direction of protecting our country.

A must read, “Politicizing Intelligence Yet Again” by Ken Timmerman

For one thing Gary, I don’t thing the planners of WWII would have telegraphed their punches in the media. ‘Were gonna surge, get out of sadder city till we get out’ is basically what bush is doing, this is why we realize they are not acting in the nations best interest, they are acting in a way to prove to their base they are changing tactics.

We aren’t giving up, we realize that the way the Iraq campaign is being mishandled by this administration gives comfort to the enemy. They’ve realize from the start it has been done on the cheap and without the necessary forces, there is a reason George senior amassed half a million troops. If we get out of baghdad and other cities and secure the borders and let the iraqis have their civil war without outside interference. We may be able to control things in the long run. When they start killing each other, just drop some artillery and smart bombs on them and kill the combatants from a distance and they will learn that fighting each other is not the way and will go a long way to getting rid of the brutalizers. Keeping our troops and resources there in the middle of the fray with a tactic that doesn’t allow them to truly engage the enemy is playing into the hands of bin Laden, who is following to the letter the plan proposed in his declaration of war. We must make the country strong and focus on protecting ourselves at home, because regardless of ‘win’ or ‘lose’ in iraq there are other governments in the area who are anxious to hit us, pakistan being a main one. If there is a successful hit on musharraff there will be another huge front opening up on this war on a tactic, do I need to remind you they already have nukes?
I find it dishonest and disingenous for conservatives to blame liberals for the clusterfuck that is iraq and what will happen if we withdraw.

YOU FUCKING CAUSED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!
TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR SOMETHING YOU’VE DONE INSTEAD OF TRYING TO DISSEMBLE AND PLACE THE BLAME ON OTHERS.

Face it, republicans started this in order to drain the treasury via contractors and overbilling. It is now very obvious by conservatives behaviour at home(cuts in funding for social programs, bankruptcy laws, medical prescription plan) as well as in iraq, that compassion and the well being of others is merely a slogan and not an ingraned belief. merely televangelists preying on the sensibilities of sheep.

There is a way out of the horrifying mess we’re in in Iraq. It is the way of honesty. Put the architects of this war on trial in a nuetral country, give the prosecutors access to the truthful intelligence, memos, and correspondence of those allegedly responsible. Let them decide if they have done wrong and if so what to do about it. Negotiate a temporary cease fire as a condition of the trial.

What the American public is saying to Bush and the war supporters is not that we want defeat, not that we want a mess in Iraq, but simply that we believe the war was a mistake in the first place; furthermore, it would simply be a mistake to continue it.

If the cause is just the United States will see any useful struggle through to the end. Your side has failed to convince the American public that this a just cause.

Lincoln said you cannot fool all the people all the time, and many people who were fooled by scare tactics in the past have now crossed that bridge of courage against your opinion. The reality is they are not going back.

You cannot convince me, or the American public at large, that things will be worse for the United States if we leave Iraq. It’s true that things might be worse for Iraq–I don’t really see how much worse they could be than they were under Saddam, but that’s your argument to make, not mine.

I believe that the United States will survive, thrive, and dominate world politics again if we are out of Iraq. I believe the United Nations and moderate forces in the world can surely do a better job with the Iraq mess than we can.

I believe we can protect ourselves from terrorists without having a military presence in Iraq.

As for Eisenhower, George S. Patton, Douglas McArthur–they were all intelligent patriots, and they would be the first to roll over in their graves that you would tout them as loyalists to a concept that the United States needs to babysit some other country’s civil war.

All your talk just makes me think you and the Bush adminstration are more loyal to Iraq than to the United States.

Considering Bush makes three times more sitting on a Saudi oil board of directors than he does working as President of the United States could be his excuse. What’s yours?

This one will serve multi purpi:

For those of you that think leaving Iraq as a failed state will not affect us here in the US, I REFER YOU TO THE EVENTS OF SEPTEMBER 11, 2001 – and the fact that the US left a little country in the middle of nowhere called Afghanistan as a failed state. Ask the people who were jumping off the top of the WTC what happens when we leave failed states. Oops, you can’t CUZ THEY ARE DEAD.

AND for those of you who think I am a Republican, or they are “my team/side” etc… I refer you to Bill Clinton’s Iraq advisor Laurie Mylroie. One of her many books [formerly a teacher at the Naval War College] is called “Saddam Hussein’s Unfinished War Against America”. Then finally read Ken Timmerman’s article ‘Politicizing Intelligence Yet Again’ about the dems contradictory statements [lying] about Zarqawi and his connections to Saddam etc…

Saddam was connected to al Qaida affiliates in multiple countries. Anyone that says Saddam would never work with Islamists neglect to mention his overtly strong ties to the Govt of Sudan [which btw hosted Bin Laden during the peak of Saddam's friendship with Bashir].

Aslo see the original indictment for the 1998 embassy bombings, William Cohen’s testimony to the 9-11 commission on the al-Shifa cruise missle strike 8-20-98, and the fact that Abdel Rahman Yassin from the ‘93 WTC bombing fled to Iraq where he lived high on the hog under Saddam. Yassin made 46 calls to Iraq from the US, and then fled there after the bombing. You don’t think Saddam was in the loop?

Enter Ramzi Yusef:
Ramzi Yusef – a.k.a. Abdul Basit Karim [both probably fake names] – entered the US on a fake passport, and left on a different fake passport. Judge in R. Yusef case states, “I don’t even know what your real name is”. Ramzi Yusef had his fake identity set up by the Iraqis during the first gulf war when Iraq had access to Kuwait’s passport office.

“What does all this suggest? To me it suggests that Abdul Basit and his family were in Kuwait when Iraq invaded in August 1990; that they probably died then; and that Iraqi intelligence then tampered with their files to create an alternative identity for Ramzi Yousef. Clearly, only Iraq could reasonably have: 1) known of, or caused, the death of Abdul Basit and his family; 2) tampered with Kuwait’s Interior Ministry files, above all switching the fingerprint cards; and 3) filched the files on Abdul Basit and his family from the Pakistani embassy in Kuwait.”

Conclusion: Saddam used a false flag operation to deflect attention away from Iraqi govt. complicity in 1993 WTC bombing.

Article: “Who is Ramzi Yousef?” Laurie Mylroie

One Mo Thang:

Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, Saddam’s right hand and leader of the Ba’athis end of the “insurgency/terroism” in Iraq, pledged his allegance to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi [before Zarqawi died].

He also publicly forswore Sufi Islam for Zarqawis form of fascism. Anyone that takes the time to read about these two charachters will find that they had maintained relations for years.

Congressman Dick Gephardt [D-MO]went even further than George Bush ever went.
George Bush never blaimed Iraq on 911. If he had, Iraq and not
Afghanistan would have been the first target.

Gephardt: ‘Lots Of’ Intelligence Ties Iraq to Al-Qaeda

House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt, D-Mo., said Sunday that he’d seen
“lots of intelligence” that ties Saddam Hussein’s regime in Baghdad to
Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda terrorist network.

“There’s lots of intelligence and it’s additive as you go along, of
meetings between Iraqi military and intelligence officials and members
of al-Qaeda,” the top House Democrat told ABC’s “This Week”

THE LIST OF DEMOCRATS THAT CITED THESE TIES IS ALMOST ENDLESS…

They were duped by the fake intel from dick cheney, as was General Colin Powell. None of them were capable of believing those chickenhawks would actually manufacture lies to support a war against Iraq for profit. It’s so hard to believe that many people still refuse to believe it, in spite of a mountain of evidence proving it.

JazzenJohn:

You are kidding right?

Dick Cheney was no where near an elected office when Bill Clinton passed the Iraq Liberation Act.

It was also the Clintonistas through the entire 1990’s that were citing the intel connecting Saddam and Al Qaida.

In Fact, William Cohen, Clintons second defense sec [after Les Aspen was 86ed for Black Hawk Down in Somalia], STILL STANDS BY THE INTEL THAT LED TO THE CRUISE MISSLE STRIKE ON THE AL-SHIFA PLANT IN SUDAN 8-20-98.

DON’T HATE BUSH MORE THAN YOU WANT TO THINK RATIONALLY.

THE STATEMENT ABOUT ITS ALL CHENEY’s FAULT ETC = ARROGANT IGNORANCE!

Gary, what a crock of shit!!! Conservatives(ironic moniker) always raise the specter of 9/11 to scare you into putting your kids in a no win situation being micromanaged by a bunch of deferment collecting cowards.

How about those kids that came back damaged and neglected and blew up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma. How about the ones who can’t cope with the shit they’ve been made to see and do and blow out their brains or their wife’s brains. How about all those kids that are kept alive but still have pieces of shrapnel in their skull even though half their brain is gone. Who do you think will have to pay for their care since they won’t be able to carry on a productive existence.
It isn’t because we left afghanistan to fend for itself ( we left afghanistan because we knew better than to be in the middle of a civil war) that the jihadi’s find it popular to attack US interests, it’s because they’ve been conditioned that way by the propaganda fed to them by their totalitarian governments, see Soudi Arabia and Pakistan.
In his declaration of war, bin laden said it was being declared because our ‘national interests’ ignore the interest of the people of those countries, because we are willing to help prop up totalitarian, brutal regimes for the sake of more profit.Strange that America, a self described christian nation, is very willing to make deals with the devil for personal profit.
Our so called ‘friends’ tell their people america is the cause of their problems because we are morally corrupt, while they drive around in ferraris and bentleys while their people starve.

Those fucks are going to come after us regardless of whether we invest our nations wealth on iraq or not because to them it’s the popular thing to do. Now they are targeting mexico, venezuela and canada because they sell us oil. all this war is doing is becoming a ‘army of one suicide bommber’ campaign for al qaida. the way we are conducting the campaign has convinced them we don’t give a shit about people and are willing to spend billions to get their oil. Make oil obsolete and the problem is diminished.

face it man, the oil companies rule this country. he with the most money wins!! and politicians of all stripes fall all over themselves to do the industries bidding for the sake of ‘national interest’… BULLSHIT, it’s for the interest of the wealthy who are willing to destroy the planet as long as they make more, more, more. They have no problem with ‘genetically modifying’ the food we eat without so much as letting us know which ones, then deny funds for stem cell research that could help cure chronic disease because, according to them, it’s immoral and may lead to cloning. BUNCH OF FUCKING HYPOCRITES!!!

If they really were concerned with the well being of the nation they would not allow these fucks to send our best jobs overseas, wouldn’t have our best technology being assembled in china. Don’t they know we are giving them the tools to attack us in the future? short sighted selfish fucks couldn’t care less about the well being of the people as long as their wallets get fatter.
If they were so interested in protecting the nation, why didn’t they do more to investigate what was going on when they busted a muslim pilot that didn’t want to learn to land or take off at a pilot training school? Mighty suspicious in light of the plot that was broken up in asia to use commercial airliners to attack the US just a few years earlier, don’t you think? Why weren’t cockpit doors made stronger a long time ago? Shit I was seeing hijackings when I was 7yo and they were taking planes left and right. Give me a fucking break and don’t insult the memory of those people that died in NY and are dying in Iraq to protect an industry that should have became obsolete with nikola tesla’s inventions in the 1930’s.
If they are really interested in protecting this nation, then stop wasting our tax money on proping up failed industries and use it to put people here to work, preferably making equipment because this war is just begining and it’s going to be global. Start the draft because we are going to need well trained career soldiers instead of kids rushed through boot camp in three months. Start monitoring all containers coming in on ships because that is how a nuke or biological weapon will be delivered. Scan all transports from canada and mexico with gamma ray equipment because enough drugs come in that way to fuel the gang wars in LA. Do something to protect the nation other than just work on peoples fears and insult the memory of 9/11 for your own political self serving selfishnes. FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!

First of all the iraq liberation act doesn’t say anything about ties to al quida. It offers 8 million dollars as token aid to opposition groups against saddam hussein. bush spends that much every hour and a half there and has for the last 4 years. cheney did manufacture the lies about the yellowcake that were used as one of the justifications for the war. Haven’t you been paying attention to the scooter libby trial?

What does the cruise missile strike in Sudan have to do with this administrations manufactured evidence for war in Iraq? Is it laughable how every mistake, blunder, quagmire, and criminal act the current administration makes is somehow attributable to Bill Clinton.

I understand how difficult it is to admit wrong, but the lengths the bush apologists and fox “news” junkies go to explain away their actions is becoming impossible to believe.

JazzenJohn:

It would be laughable, if there weren’t so many human lives at stake, that people play such games with our lives, in both political parties.

You obviously weren’t paying attention when the Senate Intelligence commitee actually found that Joe Wilson’s report CONFIRMED that Iraq had SOUGHT to buy yellow cake from Niger. Joe Wilson was claiming that no PURCHASE took place. Splitting hairs, yes. However, that is reality. Joe Wilson, is a political opportunist. NOTICE HOW HE AND HIS WIFE STARTED APPEARING AT PARTISAN DEMOCRATIC FUNCTIONS?

The Scooter Libby case is something of a media sham. Everybody knows it was Richard Armitage that leaked her name. Nobody thought/knew she was “covert” [even though she hadn't been in the field for years] – and the list of crap about that case keeps going. Washington airing its laundry.

To try and claim that I blame all the problems of the Iraq war on the Clintons tells me you simply want to read into things in a partisan way.

I was very precisely illustrating that the Clintons were claiming Saddam’s Iraq had ties to al-Qaida.

TO CLAIM ITS ALL BUSH’s [and crew] FAULT IS INTILLECTUAL DISHONESTY. The planning for the post war scenario is a whole other story. I have said on this board that Rumsfeld and Powell were both right, leaner meaner force to win the war, overwhelming force to win the peace. BUSH MADE A BAD CHOINCE ONLY GOING WITH RUMSFELD. The Turks didn’t help much by not allowing the 4th Infantry Division to go in through the North to put the squeeze on from the start.

Much is left to be desired. LETS BE RATIONAL, AND FIX THIS. BEFORE ANOTHER 9-11 EMINATES FROM IRAQ THE FAILED STATE.

SURGE STARTING TO WORK. Much work left to be done!

Muqtada “Mookie” al-Sadr flees to Iran. Took most of the Mahdi’s command with him. Probably could only get unconditional support from Iran in Iran now that we have decided to take on their networks in Iraq. And Malaki finally was forced to withdraw all political support for Sadr. [We'll see how the Iranians now react to Sunni Baluchis bombing Rev. Gaurds the other day in Iran as well??]

US Troops welcomed into previously hostile neighborhoods in Baghdad, and 30 of 36 Sunni tribes of Anbar province join Shi’ite govt to fight al-Qaida.

Lets all be constructive and work towards making things better. Rip the Republicans a new one for all I care. But do it smart and constructively so that in the end there is something of a functioning democracy in Iraq, a human catastrophe as was allowed to happen after communist tyranny to over S.East Asia is not repeated, and Bin Laden and the Iranians aren’t the ones overtly splitting the oil money and using it to finance futher genoicidal jihad against anyone that isn’t like them.

btw… for the democrats doing things constructively would be smart as they will be caught on tape contradicting themselves a lot. Guliani the lawyer that took down a phat chunk of the Mafia in the commission trial [among others] will certainly use their words against them in the court of public opinion! PEACE!

yea, really effective… they told muqtada to get out because they were coming to get him. Anyone with any lick of sense or military training knows you don’t telegraph your punches or the recipient avoids them. so now muqtada is in Iran waiting for the surge to be over to return with his generals. What a stupid micromanaged endeavor. This will go the way of vietnam because it is being politicized and mismanaged just like vietnam was.

Shit, you’ve been there almost 4 years and you are just now deciding to close the iran borders, even though you’ve know at least that long that iran’s revolutionary guards, intelligence services and weapons are just pouring in? what a bunch of morons. They should be shot without a trial for absolute negligence and putting the nation and our soldiers at great risk.

Richie C:

Lets look at the facts. Repulican and Dem alike have shown weakness to islamic tyranny, and made it stronger.

1. US leaves Lebanon in weak fashion in ‘83. Lebanon gets occupied by Syria/Iran/Hezbollah. Israel stuck in a Quagmire. Israel withdraws in 2000, only to get more terror, and little-to-no support for the “blue line”. Israel goes in a second time to fix mistakes. Has weak leaders, and can expect Hizbullah to start another round of war.

2. US Fails to finish the Job in Iraq in ‘91, or control the aftermath – Kurds and Shi’ites are massacred. Saddam conducts covert war of terror on US [see Laurie Mylroi's "Saddam Hussein's Unfinished War on America]. US has to go in a second time to fix mistakes

3. US withdraws from Somalia in weak fashion. Somalia left as a failed state. Warlords/Islamist grow in power. 1998 africa embassy bombings [among other attacks] come from Somalia cell of al-Qaida. US/Ethiopia have to go in a second time to clean up mistakes.

Bin-Laden cites everyone of these examples, and Vietnam, to point to American weakness and inability to finish a job. They are playing the democrats and main stream media like a fiddle. THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO BE A RESPONSIBLE OPPOSITION.

MORE LATER…

I believe Israel is more tyrannical that any Islamist

hitleresque huh? Isn’t that what all people brainwashed by the israeli right say when someone questions israeli actions?

Calling someone hitler or anti-semetic is becoming so pervasive and ridiculous it’s losing it’s power.

And Israel is tryannical because they won’t recognize Hamas, which was getting ready to recognize Israel’s right to exist before Israel kidnapped 1/3 or thier gov’t

I Believe:

You have very bad sources of information.

Hamas will never recognize Israel. It is against everything they have been brainwashed to believe. Read their charter. Speaking of Nazis being proud. Its quite a genocidal manifesto.

And just because other people use Nazi analogies in incorrect ways, doesn’t mean I did.

Blaming the victim, or anyone other than the offending party, is a method of turnspeak perfected by Hitler. THAT IS A FACT.

I have NO PROBLEM questioning the state of Israel on many things. Just because I defend her right to exist, does not mean I have no problem with any of her actions. And to state such a thing tells me you have not bothered TO SCROLL DOWN ON THIS VERY PAGE TO READ WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN IN OTHER POSTS.

ISRAEL HAS PLENTY TO ANSWER FOR.

1. Why did they not buy the Israeli made cluster bombs that have a self destruct mechanism instead of buying the cheap american ones that are now injuring “civillians” in S.Lebanon.

2. Why was the leadership to weak to send in the ground troops sooner instead of relying on the more imprecise air power?

3. Why have the Israelis not demanded that the school cirriculum of the arabs teach peace, a two state solution, or even the simple fact that JEWS ARE HUMAN BEINGS, NOT DECENDED FROM “MONKEYS AND PIGS”.

4. Why is the Israeli govt. not more vocal about the greater number of Jews kicked from arab lands and resettled by their brothers in Israel while the so called “refugees” [which Israel tried to help resettle] on the arab side are kept in squaller by their so-called brothers?

When Hamas speaks of a 10 year truce, it refers to The Pact of Hudabiya. This dictates that the armies of Islamic tyranny can keep a truce with the infidel for no more than 10 years, or until the armies of Islamic Tyranny are more powerful than there enemies and can subjigate them. WHICH EVER COMES FIRST, BUT NO MORE THAN 10 YEARS AND THE FIGHTING MUST RESUME.

OTHER MUST READS OF ISLAMIC TYRANNY:
THE PACT OF OMAR
THE JIYZA
THE DHIMMI CONTRACT
DHIMMI
DHIMMITUDE

THE NUREMBURG LAWS SHOULD COME TO MIND AT THIS STAGE.

I Believe:

I did not call you anti-semetic.

“I believe you have been brainwashed”

That is me giving you the benefit of the doubt, for now. I further state that “I believe you have very bad sources of info”

What you said sounded hitler-esque. THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE ANTI-SEMETIC, PER SE. Think of it more as a warning sign that this is a slippery slope, but you are not all the way there yet.

I Believe, I did not call you anti-semetic.

“I believe you have been brainwashed”

That is me giving you the benefit of the doubt, for now. I further state that “I believe you have very bad sources of info”

What you said sounded hitler-esque. THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE ANTI-SEMETIC, PER SE. Think of it more as a warning sign that this is a slippery slope, but you are not all the way there yet.

Right. So basically the palestinians are getting more and more pissed at israel. And they are so desperate for medical attention they are willing to set aside thier anger to cross the border for help.

Did it ever dawn on you that this downward trend is a direct result of the u.s. and israel cutting economic aid to the palestinians for electing hamas?

.. 63% of Palestinians believe that Hamas should use *ALL* ITS **EFFORTS** TO **REACH A PEACE** AGREEMENT **WITH ISRAEL**.

btw, the above part of the survey is about the farthest thing from what Hamas has been doing.

Moron, Hamas was getting ready to recognize Israel and to make peace BEFORE israelis detained 1/3 of thier gov’t.

Israel and the u.s. have been following a policy of creating civil war within the palestinian community and palestinians are justified in being angry over it.

Both countries have withheld economic aid to the palestinians which has contributed to the ill will palestinians feel towards israelis.

Now israel and the u.s. are mad that abbas wants to include hamas in the government. Palestinians are angry because IT IS NOT THE DECISION OF THE U.S. OR ISRAEL WHO PALESTINIANS ELECT.

There’s a common thread here: Palestinians reacting to Israeli aggression. Oh yeah, great policy on settlements by the way. Way to try to make peace.

NOW you are resorting to name calling because you cannot get your “facts” straight. HAMAS WILL NEVER RECOGNIZE ISRAEL WITHOUT GREATER PRESSURE, IF AT ALL.

Whatever your source is [which you obviously don't have to share, because there is no real sopurce for it] is pretty far from the truth. Hamas has NEVER been close to rcognizing Israel.

And why should Israel work with those trying to destroy her? LIKE SHEEPS TO THE SLAUGHTER? I DON’T THINK SO. THE TERM “NEVER AGAIN”, IN REFRENCE TO THE HOLOCAUST, STILL MEANS SOMETHING TO SOME OF US.

THEY TALK OPENLY OF GENOCIDE, MORE SO THAN EVEN THE NAZIS DID.

HAMAS KNOWS WHAT CONDITIONS THEY HAVE TO MEET FOR THE FINANCIAL BLOCKADE TO BE LIFTED. THE BALL IS IN THEIR COURT.

Frankly I believe that Hamas got elected because Fatah was too corrupt. Like the democrats in the US, they are overplaying their hand in reading the elections how they want to.

The Palestinian street wants an end to the violence [for the most part], and most of them WANT HAMAS TO CHANGE TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN. EVEN MORE OF THEM WANT HAMAS TO EXERT ALL EFFORTS FOR PEACE. SOMETHING THEY HAVE NOT COME CLOSE TO DOING.

2-17-07 Hamas’ Khaled Mashaal

Al Hayat, the London-based Arab newspaper:

“Israel and its allies are at their most difficult hour, and victory over the Jews is nigh…”
And for those who do not know what “victory over the Jews” means to a member of Hamas, let me quote their charter (which should be read in toto by anyone who wants to understand what they’re dealing with):

(Article 8 )
the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.”

More Incitement to Genocide from your friends at Hamas:

“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through jihad. All initiatives, proposals, and international conferences are a waste of time and vain endeavors” (Article 13).

And then there is the Hamas slogan, which has inspired countless jihadist bombers: “Allah is its goal, The Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Charter, jihad its path, and death for the cause of Allah its most sublime belief”

(Mor-on Article
This controversial hadith — related by the eminent compiler al-Bukhari in the 9th century — has since become a commonplace belief among Islamists. For example: On April 12, 2002, the Palestinian Authority’s Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi delivered a Friday sermon at the Sheikh Ijlin Mosque in Gaza City, broadcast live on Palestinian Authority television. Madhi quoted from this hadith — including the curious reference to the “Jewish” Gharqad tree — and then stated: “We believe in this hadith. We are convinced also that this hadith heralds the spread of Islam and its rule over all the lands… ‘from the ocean to the ocean…’”

btw: It’s not surprising that the PLO vehemently opposed the house building program, and the PLO and Hamas destroyed the industrial park, or the greenhouses.

After all, former residents of a refugee camp, now living in a nice home in a new neighborhood or having jobs/industry to support the general population, they would have a stake in supporting peace and opposing violence, exactly the opposite of the PLO/Hamas. strategy.

“Ok, so now you say that if Israel withdraws to borders that are not defensible [9 miles] in the face of an openly genocidal enemy.”

no I said that hamas’ leader said that in a context where he was becoming progressively more open to recognizing israel’s right to exist. Had greater diplomatic measures been taken Kaled may have followed the will of his people: peace with Israel. It was the u.s. and Israel that screwed this up by withholding aid, not the Palestinians.

“I believe the arabs should have a form of autonomy short of statehood.”

Yet you don’t believe Palestinians should have a state? That puts you in the vast minority in the u.s. (even that numb moron Bush endorses a Palestinian state). It also puts you in the far right of Israeli politics. The idea of a Palestinian state is endorsed by most rational people on the planet. If you are against it, you are part of the problem.

Your condition that Palestinians “recognize that Jews have a historic connection to Israel, and start negotiating immediately” is ridiculous. Palestinians have a historical connection to “Israel” as well, because they’ve lived there for thousands of years. What Jews don’t have is a reason to kick Palestinians off any land Palestinians are living on.

“Peace, TRUE PEACE… DOES NOT INVLOVE STRICT ADEHERENCE TO THE ‘67 BORDERS.
THAT’S FOURTH GRADERS ASKING FOR A “DO OVER”. SORRY. NOT WHEN THE GAME IS GENOCIDE.”

The game is not genocide. The game is a land grab by Zionist forces out to reclaim the entire holy land from whomever is currently living there. Strict adherence to the ’67 borders may give the entire region a chance for peace (as the hamas leader has said). The failure to attempt these measures just shows how uncommitted to peace some Israeli politicians are.

BLAH BLAH BLAH. NOW YOU ARE SPEWING REGIRGITATED PROPAGANDA, AND IGNORING REALITY.

HAMAS KNOWS WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO. END OF STORY. YOUR ATTEMPTS TO DEFEND THEIR POSITION ARE HOLLOW AT BEST. AS ARE YOUR ATTEMPTS TO WATER DOWN, OR DELAY, THE STEPS HAMAS MUST TAKE.

THE ‘67 BORDERS ARE NOT DEFENSIBLE. EVERYONE WHO ACTUALLY STUDIES THE SUBJECT SERIOUSLY KNOWS THAT. THAT IS WHY RESOLUTION 242 AND 338 DO NOT CALL FOR THE FULL WITHDRAWL OF ISRAELI FORCES. ISRAEL WILL RETAIN THE JORDAN VALLEY, AND A SOME OF THE “SETTLEMENTS” FOR STRATEGIC DEPTH AS THE DISTANCE IS **9 MILES** FROM TULKAREM TO THE MEDITERANIAN SEA, etc… IT IS SUICIDE TO RETURN TO THESE BORDERS. THIS IS NOT A GAMBLE THAT ISRAEL SHOULD BE ASKED TO MAKE, AND THE AUTHORS OF 242 AND 338 ARE ON RECORD SAYING **EXACTLY** THAT.

BTW…IF IT WAS A NAKED LAND GRAB, THERE WOULD BE NO MORE ARABS LEFT, SINCE ‘67.

THE ARABS WERE INVITED TO STAY BY THE JEWS STARTING FROM DAY 1. SOME DID. 1.2 MILLION NOW LIVE IN “ISRAEL PROPER”. ISRAEL-ARABS HAVE RIGHTS TOO. THAT’S WHY THEY CAN VOTE, OWN PROPERTY ETC…

YOUR STATEMENTS SEEM TO FORGET THAT THE STATE OF THE DISCOURSE IS THAT THE ARABS WANT TO MAKE JUDEA, JUDENREIN [EMPTY OF JEWS].

THAT’S A NON-STARTER.

CONSIDERING THE HISTORY OF MUSLIM TYRANNY, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE BRITISH MANDATE – DESTROYING SYNOGOGUES, USING THE HEADSTONES FROM THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT JEWISH CEMETARY IN THE WORLD [MT of OLIVES IN J'LEM] TO LINE THEIR LATRINES, OPEN CALLS TO GENOCIDE…

AND THAT JEWS GAVE THE KEYS TO THE TEMPLE MOUNT BACK TO THE ARABS AFTER RECAPTURING THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT SITE IN JUDAISM…

YOU’RE STILL IN FOURTH GRADE.

TRY AGAIN IF YOU LIKE.

IN THE MIDST OF IT BEING ABOUT 3am HERE, I FORGOT… CRAZY ASS SHARON ALREADY EVACUATED THE 4 “SETTLEMENTS” OF N. SAMARIA NOW THE ARMY HOLDS THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE THE STRATEGIC SPOTS LOOKING INTO THE HEART OF ISRAEL.

HOPEFULLY SOME SANITY WILL RETURN TO THE OFFICE OF PRIME MINISTER IN ISRAEL SOON.

Gary:

Yes, your points are relevant, and you have some good thoughts on the debate. I do appreciate your point-of-view.

I believe mine are different than yours, but I also believe you believe in our country and want what is best for it.

I would like to know that if you had to choose, would you use all that military muscle we have in Iraq to target the capture of Bin Laden? Would you rather have Bin Laden brought to justice or a democratic, stable Iraq?

I also think that Jimmy Carter did more to promote our interests in the Middle East with is peace talks than all our military actions will ever accomplish. I do not believe our military can resolve the problems there. The answers are to pursue peace, not war.

In 1991, and for all these many years, I thought we were wrong not to “finish the job” and get Saddam. Now I am forced to consider that I may have been wrong and the political decision to leave Iraq’s political destinity up to Iraq was wiser than I could have imagined. Whether or not you can admit it, the utter tormoil now going on there would cause many to reconsider whether or not we did the right thing. I think he was bad–I celebrated bringing him down. Looking at the consequences of our taking military responsibility for Iraq, I have to wonder how anyone can say that should be our position.

I do not feel we need to be responsible for Iraq. I do feel we can’t control the damage of getting out by working against extremeist forces in the Middle East with more peaceful means and more indirect military and covert operations. I believe we will promote peace that way, but we have to look at how moderate peoples in the Arab world see us, and the diplomatic damage of occupying Iraq is a real threat to our ever finding a way back to peaceful resolutions of the problems in that region.

I think I know how you feel about that, but what about Bin Laden. Get him or get Iraq? What would you do if you could only do one of those?

You say I’m spewing propaganda, yet in every single post you’ve made you’ve used the word “genocide.”

And I’m not in 4th grade, but you sound like you are when you try to use that characterization to prove your “points.”

Was Hamas moving towards a better relationship with Israel? Yes. Did the u.s. and Israel respond to this by withholding aid? yes. Right now, the u.s. wants Israel to come to the table for peace talks but the Israelis won’t do it because “Hamas won’t recognize Israel’s existence and renounce all violence.” Yet Hamas has shown that if Israel will relent, Hamas will too. This is not propaganda it is fact.

And you demand concessions from the Palestinians (as if they haven’t given enough already) yet you are unwilling to demand equal concessions from Israel. Israel needs to at least appear to consider to go back to the ‘67 borders. It will be seen as a concession that will open Hamas up and a start down the road to peace. Yet that doesn’t seem to be what you want.

Israel’s actions-as you have proven-are contributing to greater unfavorables among arabs which provides a greater chance of another terrorist attack on u.s. soil. You don’t care because you are an Israeli before you are an American.

How infintile you are.

Arabs do not like the US, because they are brainwashed everyday to believe that the US is “The Great Satan”.

Your obfuscation about arabs not liking the US due to Israel is a pathetic attempt to deflect attention away from what the arabs must do to seek peace.

You claim that Hamas was moving closer to recognizing Israel. What a friggin Joke that is [if it wasn't about murder it would be funny].

Try learning what the 1974 Phased Plan is about wiping israel out in stages. Hamas has learned from Arafat how to speak from both sides of their mouth. ISRAEL HAS SEEN THIS GAME BEFORE. SEE DENNIS ROSS’ “THE MISSING PEACE”. btw – Mr. Ross was the US special envoy to the mideast for about 10+ years under Bush #41, and Clinton.

Israel has show willingness to make concessions. THEY HAVE BEEN MET BY TERROR, TERROR, AND MORE TERROR. SHOWING WEAKNESS ISLAMIC FASCISM INVITES MORE TERROR.

HAMAS HAS BECOME LIKE HIZBULLAH. THEY ARE NOW THE PAYMASTERS AND TRAINERS OVERSEEING OR WORKING COLLABORATIVLY WITH OTHER TERROR GROUPS. THE PRC, PIJ, AND OTHERS.

JUST BECAUSE THEY DON’T CLAIM RESPONSIBILITY FOR ATTACKS ANYMORE, DOESN’T MEAN THEY ARE NOT BEHIND THEM OR PARTIALLY RESPONSIBLE. [plenty of solid intel confirming this]

AND THE REASON I USE THE WORD GENOCIDE ALL THE TIME… IS BECAUSE THAT IS THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION. IT IS SUMMARIZING HAMAS IN THEIR OWN WORDS. CALLING THEIR PROPAGANDA WHAT IT IS, INCITEMENT TO GENOCIDE.

BTW…THERE IS A LITTLE THING THAT HAPPENED 60+ YEARS AGO, YOU MIGHT HAVE HEARD OF IT??… ITS CALLED THE HOLOCAUST.

ITS A LITTLE REMINDER TO TAKE THE WORDS OF GENOCIDAL MANIACS SERIOUSLY. I HAVE PROVIDED SOME INFORMATION ON WHY THIS IS THE APPROPRIATE TIME AND PLACE TO USE THIS TERM. IF YOU ARE SO NAIVE THAT YOU CAN’T GRASP THE CONCEPT… THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM. IF YOU REALLY NEED ME TO OVERLOAD THE SERVER HERE WITH THE ENDLESS LIST OF STATEMENTS BY HAMAS MEMBERS THEMSELVES CONFIRMING THEIR GENOCIDAL AMBITIONS, I WILL.

I SUGGEST 5-10 MORE YEARS IN SCHOOL BEFORE YOU SPEAK ABOUT THIS SUBJECT AGAIN.

btw… The post below with the time stamp below is for “I Believe”

Gary Jacobs | 2/19/2007, 6:04 pm EST

it starts:

“How infintile you are.”

scroll if you will…

too bad you don’t know how to spell check. With those views you would make a good successor to alfred E newman(George W)

PEOPLE ARE DYING OUT THERE, AND REAL PROBLEMS NEED TO BE SOLVED, AND THIS GUY IS WORRIED ABOUT SPELL CHECK…

PRIORITIES RIGHT?!?!…

Jed Clampet:

I will have to say I got overly upset at someone forcing me to repeat myself. I did make the mistake of lowering my standards of debate for a moment.

Much of my family doesn’t exist anymore because of the Holocaust.

I have no patience for genocidal maniacs, and not much more for their apologists.

The Israeli govt. and “the hilltop youth” can be a little too agressive with the settlements sometimes.

I believe it is a small handful of Jews that are provacatuers. Yitzhak Rabin [the man of peace] was exposed for sending in shin bet agents to provoke Jews for their removal from their homes to be easier…and most understand it backfired on him, literally.

I HAVE ON THIS VERY BOARD [very recently] stated that I think that the arabs should get some form of autonomy short of statehood within greater Israel.

The space is simply too small to trust them with some form of “do over”.

The United States Military did a battlefield assesment after the 6 day war and found that the 49 armistice lines were indefensible against continuesd massive assault.

Israel Keeps
1. The Jordan Valley
2. Some “Settlements”
a. Major Population Centers
b. Most strategic Hilltops near what’s left if Israel
c. Hebron may need to become internationalized [tricky balance - possible a pipe dream] with the IDF retaining the right to act with force to defend the rights of Jews to goto the Cave of The Patriarchs, Joseph’s Tomb near Nablus and a few other places.
3. Take back Philidelphia Route along Gaza Egypt Border
4. Most, if not all, of Jerusalem

I’m not fully decided on Jerusalem yet – probably going to have to make this the final concession to seal “real peace”. And make the arabs “de-militarize” [terrorize].

These are some of the basic “final status” points that are the basis of reality for Israel.

The real quantum leap in all problems in the mideast will take place when oil becomes drasticly less important. Then our foreign policy can be based on reality.

There is a team of Israelis, with some help from others, are working on a promising project at the Weizman Institute in the Negev Desert. Using a solar tower, reflective mirrors, and zinc ore [4th most abundant metal in the world]… they store hydrogen energy in zinc oxide powder. The project manager says it is ready for industrial scale testing.

Second Phase of the study yielded something like 45+ kilograms of the zinc powder per hour [more than projected]. Easy/safe to transport, they use water at 350 celcius to release the hydrogen getting 4-1 hydrogen energy out for the energy put into heating the water.

And there is NO POLUTION in the process. Except probably to make solar cells. Last time I checked some of them have toxic byproducts. Maybe the tech is better now. Wasn’t really the focus of that study.

General Motors claims they will have a hydrogen engine that performs just as well as a combustion engine ready for mass production in less than 5 years.

Bottom line. There are some concessions that “peace” is not worth, because it is not real peace.

I do NOT claim to have all the answers by any means. However, there are certain basic realities that should reasonably be in play as a starting point.

Hamas claiming Israel should withdraw to the ‘67 borders as a precondition for negotiations, and then someone claiming that is progress [after all the rest of the guff I got from mr "I Believe" - including being called a moron], is INFANTILE [spelled correctly just for you]

“I believe” that the arrogance of your ignorance is astonishing.

Hamas, in arabic, says constantly that they are part of global jihad [no matter what their lies are in english]. Your Idea that they can somehow be singled out as a single threat, when they are a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, receive “spiritual” and financial assistance from Yusef Qardawi et.al.

I refer you to my last post to Jed Clampet for a breakdown of where real peace negotiations will revolve around [pretty much the same scoop from the last Camp David]. This should also show you how obsurd your idea that I believe in a naked land grab. Frankly, while I believe in compromise for peace… reality is that the true definition of a “palestinian” much less their “refugees”, is nothing close to what the going story is [which changes a lot] – see The people are in great need of a ‘MYTH’ to fill their consciousness and imagination.” -Musa Alami [Arab] The Middle East Journal October 1949. The 1919 Syrian “Congress” declared that “palestine was nothing more than southern syria”. The Jordanians consider[ed] some of the land theirs, egypt use to claim Gaza. ASK YOURSELF WHY IN THE 19 YEARS FROM 1948-1967, EGYPT AND JORDAN NEVER BOTHERED TO SET UP INDEPENDENT “PALESTINIAN” ENTITIES? Also see the charter changes for the PLO in the ’60s. They reflect their rediculous attempts to reinvent their claims based on new realities…

The ‘Pals’ have sown their own fate til this point. The great Israeli statesman Abba Eben’s most famous quote is “THE PALESTINIANS NEVER MISS AN OPPORTUNITY, TO MISS AN OPPORTUNITY”. RATHER PROFOUND… I BELIEVE!

You cite repeatedly Hamas trickery as if they should be somehow be trusted without showing real signs of planting the seeds of peace.

If there were friday sermons on a consistent basis calling for peace and reconciliation, instead of murder…we might be getting somewhere. If there were positive radio or tv broadcasts preparing the population for peace… blah blah blah…

Come to think of it, I might have to see a shrink. I feel like I’m spinning. EXPLAINING THE SAME SHIT OVER AND OVER.

JED CLAMPET WAS RIGHT. BEATING A DEAD HORSE… WHICH IS YOUR END OF THE “CONVERSATION”.

PUBLIC OPINION STRATEGIES:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: 423 / 290-1470

FEBRUARY 20, 2007

AMERICANS WANT TO WIN IN IRAQ
NATIONAL SURVEY SAYS PUSH TO RENOUNCE WAR IN WASHINGTON ON DIFFERENT PAGE THAN MAJORITY OF AMERICAN PEOPLE ON IRAQ WAR

(Alexandria, VA) February 20 — In the wake of the U.S. House of Representatives passing a resolution that amounts to a vote of no confidence in the Bush administration’s policies in Iraq, a new national survey by Alexandria, VA-based Public Opinion Strategies (POS) shows the American people may have some different ideas from their elected leaders on this issue.

The survey was conducted nationwide February 5-7 among a bi-partisan, cross-section of 800 registered voters. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percent. The survey was commissioned by The Moriah Group, a Chattanooga-based strategic communications and public affairs firm.

“The survey shows Americans want to win in Iraq, and that they understand Iraq IS the central point in the war against terrorism and they can support a U.S. strategy aimed at achieving victory,” said Neil Newhouse, a partner in POS. “The idea of pulling back from Iraq is not where the majority of Americans are.”

By a 53 percent – 46 percent margin, respondents surveyed said that “Democrats are going TOO FAR, too fast in pressing the President to withdraw troops from Iraq.”

By identical 57 percent – 41 percent margins, voters agreed with these statements: “I support FINISHING THE JOB in Iraq, that is, keeping the troops there until the Iraqi government can maintain control and provide security” and “the Iraqi war is a key part of the global war on terrorism.”

Also, by a 56 percent – 43 percent margin, voters agreed that “even if they have concerns about his war policies, Americans should stand behind the President in Iraq because we are at war.”

While the survey shows voters believe (60 percent- 34 percent) that Iraq will never become a stable democracy, they still DISAGREE that victory in Iraq (”creating a young, but stable democracy and reducing the threat of terrorism at home”) is no longer possible.

Fifty-three percent say it’s still possible, while 43 percent disagree.

By a WIDE 74 percent – 25 percent margin, voters DISAGREE with the notion that “I don’t really care what happens in Iraq after the U.S. leaves, I just want the troops brought home.”

MORE LATER…

How dare you use statistics in the no logic zone!

Gary, my condolences on your loss. Most of mine was lost to Pinochet’s little right wing oppression machine… for the good of the people of course.

The situation is bad and getting worse rather than better. We seem to forget what the rules proposed to us by Spirit through our religions are designed to bring us to peace, to fight against that which would have us destroy each other and be totally ineffective in doing what we were created for, protecting our homeworld.
If it was up to me, I’d have no problem with a global do-over, just wipe out this insane suicidal/homicidal race. Unfortunately the stakes are now much higher than merely a few human lives. We must do whatever is necessary to work in unity and expose those among us who have succumbed to one or all of the seven anti-virtues. Painting all peoples with a broad brush is neither productive nor intelligent and in fact is helping our common enemy.

Gary,

The reason you keep repeating yourself is because you simply cannot argue my points. Hamas was getting ready to recognize Israel and you try to prove this wrong by citing Israeli propaganda and extremist statements made by Hamas. (Then interestingly, you cite extremist statements made by Israelis). The record shows that Israel and the U.S. attacked first by withholding aid. You attempt to explain this by calling Hama’s opening up “Islamic trickery,” and look like a racist in the process. You are not proving me wrong Gary, you’re proving me right.

And I love how you cite a self described “republican polling organization” as an objective source for polling data. Nothing better illustrates that -as a poster before as said- you rely far too much on propaganda for information. Here’s a statement from their website: “About half of our research is dedicated to winning elections. Our political client base includes 18 U.S. Senators, eight Governors, fifty-six Members of Congress, and numerous state legislative caucuses. The other half of our work is involved in complex public policy battles, working with industry coalitions, government entities and private companies. This work extends to corporate image, community relations, and crisis management research for local companies, Fortune 500 corporations and industry associations throughout the country. “ The vast majority of those politicians are republican (hell I think the only democrat they helped was Joe Lieberman beating Ned Lamont).

Back to Israel: since you’re so fond of quoting Hamas leaders, here are some Israeli quotes. I’d hope you’d have the humanity to see what is wrong with what these people are communicating:

“We must expel Arabs and take their places.”
– David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

“[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.”
– Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the ‘Beasts,”‘ New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

“I would have joined a terrorist organization.”
– Ehud Barak’s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha’aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours…Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
– Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

“[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat.”
– Yitzhak Rabin (a “Prince of Peace” by Clinton’s standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen’s remarks to the Knesset’s foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”
– Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

“(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.”
– Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”
– David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

“Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
– Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
– David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech

The policies these people have followed have brought Israel nothing but terror since the first Zionists landed in their holy land. You’d think you’d want to replace right wing fanaticism such as this. But no, people like you apparently like following policies that don’t work (Iraq, settlement policy, Lebanon, Iran,…) When those policies don’t work people like you tend to type in capital letters to emphasize how frustrated you are that this is everyone else’s fault but yours. You are a clown Mr. Jacobs, supporting an illegal occupation and criminal tactics without a second guess. You condemn others for the same crimes you commit. You can accurately be described as a racist. Please get some medical help.

Also,

It is abhorrent that you would use your family’s deaths in the Nazi genocide as an excuse and a rallying cry to commit the same crime against a group of people who had nothing to do with it. You shame yourself and you shame the human race. You prove fanatical religion to be what it is: the most dangerous weapon humanity has ever wielded. And you are merely the latest to wield it in a long line of psychopaths.

Gary Jacobs,

You bring up “Haj Amin Al-Husseini.” Cute and extremist in its lack of context. Why am I not surprised?

Have you forgotten the Zionist organization Lehi offered to side with the Nazis AGAINST THE BRITISH AND THE AMERICANS DURING WORLD WAR II with the goal of “evacuating” the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany’s help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine? Of course you have. Lehi was willing to allow for the ethnic cleansing of Europe as long as Jewish people ended up in Palestine to displace Palestinians; they would sell out to either the Nazis or the U.S. to do it.

Here’s a quote from one of your “venerable” Israeli fascists:

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.”
– David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

You fail to respond to my points and instead regurgitate Israeli propaganda. Typical and again, I find I’m repeating myself: Hamas was liberalizing relations with Israel in Feb 06 until Israel and the U.S. withheld aid to them. This is Israel and the U.S.’s fault. You have nothing to combat this statement because you simply can’t.

You are a sad man. In fact you are the worst example of what can happen to a man when brainwashed by faith. Here are some statistics proving Israel to be a tyrannical state. (You won’t follow or respond to these because you no doubt do not believe in reality or reason.)

Total Palestinians killed in direct conflict related incidents in occupied Palestinian territories and Israel in 2006: 678
Total Palestinians injured in direct conflict related incidents in occupied Palestinian territories and Israel in 2006: 3199

Total Israelis killed in direct conflict related incidents in occupied Palestinian territories and Israel in 2006: 25
Total Israelis injured in direct conflict related incidents in occupied Palestinian territories and Israel in 2006: 377

Let’s review: Over 27 TIMES the amount of Palestinians were killed in 2006 (25 to 678). Over 8 times the amount of Palestinians were injured in 2006 (not controlling for the fact Israel has better (and different) medical and reporting apparatuses to record such statistics)

Total Palestinian children (0-17yrs) killed in 2006 in occupied territories and Israel by direct conflict: 127

Total Israeli children(0-17yrs) killed in 2006 in occupied territories and Israel by direct conflict: 2

Let’s review: Over 63 TIMES the amount of Palestinian children killed in 2006.

And now some stats to prove Israel is a tyrannical state (tyrannical means :unjustly cruel, harsh, or severe; arbitrary or oppressive; despotic–according to dictionary.com)

Total hours Palestinians under curfew in 2006: 696 (8% of the year). In 2005: 1516 (17% of the year).

Total hours Israelis under curfew in 2006: 0 (0% of the year). In 2005: 0 (0% of the year).

Number of “flying checkpoints” in the west bank in 2005: 2265. In 2006: 7090. (455 have been enacted since January 2007, which would project 5460 for the year of 2007-discounting the 2006 trend of greater numbers of flying checkpoints in the summer months and towards the end of the year ).

Number of searches in 2005 in occupied Palestinian territories of Palestinians by Israelis forces: 1893. In 2006: 5674 (increase of over 3%).

Number of searches in 2005 of Israelis by Palestinian forces: 0. In 2006: 0. (increase of 0).
Number of arrests/detentions in occupied Palestinian territories in 2005 of Palestinians by Israelis: 2368. In 2006: 5431 (increase of over 4%).

Source for all data:
United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs
P.O. Box 38712, East Jerusalem, Phone (972) 2-582 9962

So Gary, tell me again how little I know about this conflict….

What these figures do is tell a story of the systematic repression of the Palestinian people by the Israeli people. There is no doubt in the stats and only a religiously intoxicated person such as yourself would ever doubt that.

“YOU KNOW SO LITTLE ABOUT THE SITUATION IT’S SCARY.”

You know so little about ANYTHING it is scary.

You are thoroughly debunked. How does it feel to lose an argument Gary?

“I’m a little exhausted of people like mr “I Believe”. I Know/THE INTELLECTUALLY HONEST WORLD KNOWS way too much about who killed my family/people and where they spread their fascist tentacles to have people attempt to challenge such FACTS, or blame Israel first for everything in the face of reality.”

And I am extremely exhausted of you using every possible excuse you can to start a genocide all your own. Israel is the problem because Israel has the money and power to be the solution, yet they aren’t. Keep trying to hide your innate racism Gary Jacobs.

“I Believe”

As well.. at Camp David, they were not reall discussing the equal-or-larger number of jews that were kicked from muslims countries as Israel was reborn.

Their Dhimmi Contract was vicariously cancelled by Israel’s existence, most had their property confiscated etc…

%60 of the Palestinians that left their homes during Israel’s war of independence never saw an Israeli soldier.

They were told to leave so the Arab armies could slaughter the jews and redistribute the Jiyza [infidel tax].

I keep say that carrot and stick need to be combined. Military and Social… Keep scrolling. again and again if you have to…

“It is time for a rational debate on how to fight militarily and socially at the same time.”–Gary

Gary, I gotta hand it to you. You are really starting to win me over. You make a lot of sense. I do not pretend to understand the Jewish situation, and I know I don’t understand it as much as I want to. I read Golda Meir’s biography, and that was really one of the most eye-opening experiences of my life.

I’ve been wondering if, really, the Jewish state hasn’t done enough to maintain its intransigence in recent events. It seems like every time they try to extend the olive branch, it emboldens the enemy.

Like I said, I’m wondering, I’m not really sure, but I would like your thoughts. You seem very reasonable about these issues, and you are 100% right. It’s time to stop slinging mud and start building some mud pies. Maybe we can find some real, honest answers.

It may be unrealistic, right now, but I expect there are a lot of people in the Arab world who want a better way. Yes, I believe we can’t win those people over by imposing our will on them. All the same, I feel it’s important that we address terrorism head-on and show intransigence in regards to dealing with it. It’s a very difficult diplomatic and military line to walk, but the debate needs to continue on how we are going to walk it.

Thank you for contributing to an honest and forthright one.

“I believe” –

Somehow thinks that the Lehi was a mainstream orginization of the time equivilent to Hamas of today. WRONG AGAIN.

Lehi [aka The Stern Gang] had to branch off of the Irgun because they were too far out there. There were a very small [probably less than 5] handfull of operations that were done by the Haganah, Palmach, or even the Irgun… with Lehi. Their tactics were constantly repudiated by the mainstream Jewish orgs. Even the Irgun of Menachim Begin was subject to the same treatment.

Witness “The Altalena Incident” where the Haganah fired upon an Irgun ship carrying Jewish fighters/refugees and weapons. They were fired upon and the ship was sunk because they had failed to adopt the moderate line, and accept where the new Israeli govt. was headed politicly/militarily.

THE MODERATE ISRAELIS RISKED CIVIL WAR TO KEEP “ZEALOTS” IN CHECK.

I have little-to-no affection for the people of Lehi. However, their leaders ACTUALLY CHANGED. Yitzhak Shamir was the prime minister of Israel that got the Madrid process started [which led to the oslo process] after the first gulf war.

It seems to me like you are reading talking points off some leftist-meets-islamist hate site.

You have accused me of everything you have done wrong – when I have overwhelmed you with FACTS & CONTEXT. When will you learn to change tactics?

You continue to prove how arrogant your ignorance is…

I would have to agree with Dominick.

Gary Jacobs,

Wow. You are pretty fucked up man. posting on this site for what, 14 days now? spewing right wing Israeli nonsense about your right to fight a bunch of impoverished people because of ancient Islamic repression? What do you want to get even or something? You are an asshole.

You apparently believe the u.s. should fight all of Israel’s wars for them. Fuck you. Fight your own wars you stupid piece of shit. Ironically there is a Joe Klein piece up right now on Time’s site about how the u.s. is blocking Israel’s attempt at piece with Syria. No doubt because of pieces of worthless shit like your right wing ass. Even Israelis are less extreme than puritanical right wing psychos like yourself. Ending your posts with “peace.” Is that supposed to be funny with all the tough talk about “finishing the job” you spit? You’re not interested in peace, you’re interested in war. Stop fucking lying.

If I could choose to be prejudiced against anyone I’d choose right wing fascists. They caused and lost the war in Iraq and they are now sable-rattlin’ Iran. If you want another Iraq then support attacking Iran. Just know that if you do you look like a traitor to this country. I quote Cheney: “fuck yourself.”

Gary:

I believe many Arabs believe terrorism is their only effective weapon. However, in spite of the propoganda that they would have us buy into, it is the terrorism which not only makes them “look like” the bad guys–it makes them the bad guys.

When they result to putting bombs in places that purposely target innocent women and children then they create enemies among those who would have no other reason to be against them.

In Iraq the same thing is happening, only they are killing each other. Their cause cannot be supported by God if it involves killing those who are innocent. What they refuse to understand is that the people of the world see this killing as the senseless sham it is. I believe the United States is also tarnishing it’s reputation as a country that stands for certain values, but it is the Arabs who target universities and markets to make their point who are the ones that come out looking like servants of the devil, not God.

Do not think that most of us are unable to see through their talk. They can claim to be innocent victims all they want, but actions speak so much louder than words when people evaluate the situation for themselves. In respect to their terrorist methods, they wrote that book of evil.

Richie C:

One more thing…I think that the arabs/muslims should know by now that they really don’t need weapons.

EXCEPT THEIR MINDS. In the marketplace of ideas. NOT try to dominate or lord over people.

They are in dire need of a thorough reformation period,
and an “enima”… if you will.

Gary,

If you think for one fucking minute U.S. forces will die for Israel you are mistaken. The only way you can bring about this sin is to convince the U.S. population Iran is a threat. You will have to convince them that the threat of Iran is so great it requires the indirect funding of Al Qaeda to defeat it. You will do this through the media. If you are successful there is no better proof that Israel controls the media to the detriment of the united states.

It is apparent(Klein-the great example)how beholden “Time” is to the Bush Regime…

Clinton did not want to see the merge of Time/Warner/AOl and, Bush got to CNN with his “Big Yes” to the Monopoly…

CNN and all the other networks have gone Bush-Propaganda ever since-Favors owed-Favors returned…(Fascism blooms so easy).

The Ones displaying Lack of Patriotism are the “War-Hypes” who are the Bush Cheer-Leading Team…

Reality has not entered their collective brain…

кто бы еще рассказал блондинке поподробнее))

Кто знает, если в машине часто потеют стекла внутри, что делать?