savage and brilliant.

Two things:

1. You forgot to mention that, after having craftily planned all this, they directed W to look like an idiot reading “The Pet Goat” for several extra minutes, just to throw people off the scent. Clever optics, that.

2. The stuff about WTC 7 is all too real. But Bush isn’t the one to blame; that’s Giuliani, for insisting on having an illegal fuel oil tank there. I do hope he runs and is forced to admit flagrantly breaking the law and destroying a $50M building unnecessarily.

All I want to know is this: where’s the TSA storing my goddamn $20 bottle of shampoo? Is it wedged up Michael Chertoff’s crapper?

Can’t we have legions of conspiracy theorists feverishly working on my shampoo? At least they might stumble on some relatively useful information.

“In both cases you have to be far gone enough into your private world of silly tribal bullshit that the concept of “your fellow citizen” has ceased to have any meaning whatsoever.”

Sounds to me like this statement could be about the author since he uses this article to attack everyone he disagrees – Hannity, Intelligent Disign, Bush, etc. It is the left in this country that constantly labels anyone who disagrees with them a racist-bigot-homophobe-nazi.

I just want my shampoo back. I’ll turn my own grandmother in to Gitmo JTF if that’s what it takes – she’s been sending hate mail to Andrew Fastow’s cats.

No one claims to know every and all details involved in 9/11. But some do believe that the official story is just as inconcievable as any conspiracy theory. All you have to do is watch one of these films and figure it out for yourself. Asking questions, wanting to know and understand is an integral part of human nature. Never have someone think for you or force a perspective on you. When you read all the newspapers, watch tv news, read these blogs and then watch some of these “nut job” movies, you just might find your own opinion somewhere in the middle. No need to claim you know everything, then denounce anyone that disagrees with you. That is the problem with this country, not people asking questions and doing a little investigating when they find something questionable.

9/11 Conspiracy Stupidity? Matt, You obviously don’t know much about conspiracy theories. Let me explain to you why the 911Truth movement doesn’t have “all the facts”. BECAUSE IT IS A CONSPIRACY, ONLY THEORY EXISTS! I understand that the whole thing is difficult to believe, but don’t you think you should at least look into the claims before dissing the entire concept? In relation to 9/11 the Government has consistently acted suspiciously, obviscated and covered up facts, and even stonewalled the 911 commission. There are all kinds of aspects to the ‘official’ story that just DO NOT ADD UP. You gloss over this entirely in your article siting instead the absense of a “comprehensive” theory. Listen, John F. Kennedy was shot over 40 years ago and we still don’t have a “comprehensive theory”, but I can tell you with as much certainty as I have about anything, Oswald did not kill him.

If there is any credible conspiracy theory it would be closer to what the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theoy, visa vie, alowing an attak to occur, by purposly ignoring all the warnings keeping all the appropriate dots from conecting in the inteligence community and pretending that it was all a big surpise. A theory like this, is more centralized, with higher ups being insulated from culpabilty, and has much lees loose strings. And furthermore there are many pentagin insiders who say that 9/11 actually delayed the plans for Iraq and based on how competent this administation has been in executing plans that they could possibly pull off such an elaborate string of events. But even a conspiracy along these lines are shaky and detract from real life conspiracies such as the very transparent web of lies leading up to the Iraq War or the voter frauds of 2000 and 2004 Presidential elections. There are plenty of high felonies that are right in the light of day that should outrage us every day. Nothing needs to be manufactured.

This is one thing that is not debatable:

in the immediate aftermath the government told everyone working and living in or near ground zero to go about their lives and that the air was safe to breathe, when in fact they had substantial evidence from the EPA and many independent sources that it was incredibly toxic. You should ask those people coughing up their lungs how they feel about trusting “officals.” Heros help the clean up effort and end up dead men walking, yet the government refuses to give compensation because that would admit guilt. If those powers that be would blatantly mislead the public about this, which will end up killing numerous innocent civilians, I wonder what else? For some reason this went down the memory hole too…

Amen Brother

And I suppose John Perkins is a pathological liar as well, Mr. Taibbi?

I think you’ve got a lot of good points, Matt, but just don’t express yourself as fair-minded as you could.

I think one gives too much credit to 9/11 conspiracists to call what they traffic a ‘conspiracy theory’. As Taibbi points out in his inimitable style, theirs is not a conspiracy theory at all but a ‘conspiracy opinion,’ backed by no affirmative evidence or coherent narrative unifying a body of evidence. The result is that these things can’t be addressed in any serious manner, nor should they be.

Matt, when you can explain to me how concrete gets PULVERIZED turning into a pyroclastic flow leaving behind a pool of molten steel for 6 weeks without explosives then I will belive your opinion and even subscribe. Until then I am going with logic and science. Its a law of nature and cannot be broken, ie.. you can’t get those two things to happen without EXTREME force and a building falling on itself is not enough.

Why can’t we see the video that conclusively confirms the official statement that a 757 crashed into the Pentagon ? The FBI seized tapes that could prove this claim. All we get is B.S.

Larry Silverstein should be treated like a terror suspect and interrogated until he talks.

If they can bring a case with so little evidence against Clay Shaw for conspiring against JFK , then why not Larry “pull it” Silverstein for at the very least , insurance fraud??

If I was able to view ALL of the video they have showing the Pentagon crash , I might re-evaluate my position. Those tapes should be seized in the name of the American public. Until then ….why hide evidence from the people? It smells of complicit behavior.

give Matt more money… He is the best thing in Rolling Stone

For those who think BYU Professor Jones has the answers: His school and faculty backed away from his conspiracy theory, questioned his hypotheses and evaluation of existing evidence, said it was “increasingly speculative and accusatory” and was not subjected to proper peer review or evaluation by the scientific community. And he’s now on leave from the school while they figure out what to do with him. But don’t let that keep you from thinking it’s gospel.

Why do Americans always abdicate their right to think about anything to ‘experts’ (who are easily bought or intimidated)? Its as if we have lost all ability to reason for ourselves. If being called stupid is what it takes to get an investigation started, I’m proud to be ’stupid’ in the mold of researchers like Jim Garrison, Jim Mars, Carl Bernstein, etc.. Just because it hurts to look at the truth, doesn’t mean it isn’t true folks.

Americans are just plain naive when it comes to skullduggery. Look at history: It’s chock full o’leaders doing all kinds of unthinkable things and then telling their people something else.

Am I supposed to believe that human nature radically mutated in, oh, the past 50 years or so (just in America, of course) and we’re beyond that now?

You told me I was posting a duplicate. I am amazed and hopeful. Please put me in contact with the individual who posted the same comment. It’s dangerous to meet one’s doppleganger, but my curiosity is overwhelming. It’s ok. You didn’t want to print my comment. So you are a bunch of BS. Fascinating. Why did I think Rolling Stone was more credible than any of the rest of the crap that’s out there. Stuff it.

am i to believe that GWB was so interested in hearing the end of the little goat story that he would just sit there dumfounded for several minutes until he was told to get up because a second plane had hit the other tower? Perhaps he was thinking, ‘oh yea, this is the one Karl had told me abut, should be no big deal’. Why would they fire Richard Clark, an apolitical expert on terrorism that had been studying the situation and made it his calling? What exactly was the relationship of the CIA under GHWB during the afghan war agains russia? How much of that relationship still existed in the weeks before 911?

to come up with Theories about the events leading up to 9/11 is folly, but we need an independent review rather than a political report that would take the best reader years to sort through.

Capitalist Pig is on the right track. I would expect a magazine like RS. to have some more creative writers than this one. and has anyone ever seen loose change? ha, I store it in my comedy folder.

Any assholes who believe in this conspiracy shit are not even worth debating because they are not sane.

Before you criticize any political analysis you actually have to know what the theory postulates, not just take pot shots at your own garbled revisionist nonnsense, which, of course looks foolish, duh!!
Yopu have hand-picked tid-bits that make your allready developed opinion seem correct, without evaluating those facts or assertions that don’t fit with your analysis.

Your critics are right – Your just another opnionated dude that mistakes criticism for a critique.

What the hell kind of libel is this shit? Who the hell are you calling stupid? Have you even looked into the facts? I doubt it, you just accept whatever Bush says, right? No? Well, then why do you think it’s a good idea when it comes to 9/11? Look at how Bush and the Republicans have shamelessly exploited this event for political gain. Do you really think they’re above false flag terror attacks? American history is full of them, from Operation Northwoods to the Gulf of Tonkin. Apparently, Rolling Stone believes that at least 2 recent presidential elections were stolen. If these neocons have the balls to do that, who’s to say what they are capable of?

And who exactly are you criticizing when you rip on “the mainstream media”? Aren’t YOU the media? And aren’t you picking on the youngest and most naive of 9/11 truthers, the Dylan Avery crowd? I guess you didn’t want to contend with all of the serious adults who have come forward. If you can read Michael Ruppert’s Crossing the Rubicon and still tell me there’s nothing suspicious going on, fine. But I doubt you can. Why don’t you pick on a real debunker for a change. Going after these well-intentioned but foolish kids is far too easy. Let’s see if you can tangle with Steven E. Jones, Webster Tarpley and Alex Jones (he’s shrill, but he knows his stuff).

What a bunch of crap. I honestly expected better from Rolling Stone. You’re doing important work exposing the election irregularities, but you’re flat out WRONG on this one. 9/11 stinks to high heaven. The victims were murdered by our own government (who else could scuttle our air defenses?) and I think it’s time we found out who did it and why.

Taibbi is dead on. I will print this and gleefully rub it into the faces of everyone I work with who say Bush was behind it.

To all those who ask how a jetliner can bring down a tower, here’s a thought. The jetliners were filled to capacity with jet fuel, which when combusted burns at an amazingly intense temperature. Hot enough to weaken the steel that was holding up the top portion of the buildings. When that steel finally gave way, the top portion came down with a pancake effect. The forces involved would have been enormous. Concrete, while being solid, is still a porous material (moisture does damage to concrete all the time). The question of how concrete could be “pulverized” is not a difficult question if you give it some thought. WTC7’s proximity to the towers made it a prime target for destruction when the towers reached ground level. It’s amazing more buildings in the area weren’t destroyed in this manner. Oh, and as for the cloud, it wasn’t pyroclastic because there was no pyro in it. It was just toxic. The ignited jet fuel and plenty of burnable material would help maintain an intense fire for days.

The only conspiracy here is that Al Queda conspired to hit their intended targets. If you want to talk conspiracy on a the part of the US government, look in to the connections of Bush, et al, to the Taliban, to bin Laden, etc. The JFK assaination involved the killing of just one person. That’s a lot easier than what’s being espoused here. The only positive thing about these dangerous conspiracy theories is that it gets people asking questions. That’s a start, but it shouldn’t end at the theory.

Brilliant. Being open minded doesn’t mean leaning towards the most obsurd stance possible.

every wild-eyed democrat, republican, libertarian, conservative christian, vegan and wannabe neocon should read this and realize that no matter how right any of us all might individually be, in public we are all behaving exactly like these self-obsessed maniacs. the last two paragraphs nail it: those three morons are a mirror for the whole country.

Matt Taibbi’s a “pussy who’s afraid to disagree?” He interviewed a high ranking official in the “war on drugs” while high on acid and dressed in a Viking costume.
The 9/11 conspiracy theories that exist now are ridiculous. Everyone who posts reguarly on this god-forsaken blog constantly fly off the handle. No one knows what happened on 9/11, but I can assure you that George W. Bush (too stupid to make his reasons for the Iraq war stick)couldn’t pull off the biggest con in the history of mankind.
Oh, and vemrion: stealing elections is the same as murdering over 3,000 people? Pulling your head out of your ass, you stupid, misguided, band-wagon jumping piece of shit.

Lets stop the name calling, it does no good for either side of this issue.

All I would ask is that the author not just do a hit piece, but actually look into the facts of the alternate theories of what happened, and debate those facts rather than telling us why we shouldn’t go do our own research.

Everyone should google for 9/11 Mysteries: Demolitions. This movie proves without a doubt that explosives were used to cut the main core of the buildings. If it was a pancake collapse, then the floors would lose speed on their way down, not gain speed. Take a look at the collapse footage again. There is debris from the top of the tower that has not yet fallen to the middle, where there are explosions pushing steel beams sideways. This is not physically possible given a pancake collapse. There was molten steel burning in the rubble for a MONTH! Kerosene cannot do that!

Mr. Taibbi — I challenge YOU to present a full rebuttal to Michael C. Ruppert’s book, “Crossing the Rubicon.” I noticed that you challenged Dylan Avery to present a full scenario. But we don’t have to at this point. Why? Well, it’s quite obvious. All we have to do is disprove the official story. Once the official story is in flames we can begin again with a full investigation. At this point laying out a full story would be mostly conjecture because there are so many stones left unturned by the 9/11 Commission’s report. I certainly have my ideas, but I think we need to get out of the land of fantasy (19 hijackers defeat the most sophisticated air defense system on the planet) and into the land of hard-hitting reality.

By the way, your hypothetical conversation with Bush/Rummy/Cheney was, of course, pure fantasy. It was also a HUGE straw-man. You’re misrepresenting our arguments because the fake ones are easier for you to defeat. That’s why I challenge you to read a real book on the subject, Crossing the Rubicon.

Personally, I don’t believe the “no-plane” theory postulated by Avery and others. I think all 4 planes were real and had real passengers on board. I have no idea what really happened to Flight 93, but it’s possible that there really was a passenger revolt once they heard what happened to the WTC and Pentagon.

I noticed that you haven’t even tried to tackle the most damning info out there: The nearly 2 hour time between the 1st hijacking and the crash in PA. During that 2 hour gap, where was our air defense? Where?!! Not in the air, it would seem. If you don’t know how this happened you haven’t done enough research. I’ll give you a hint: War Games.

Secondly, there hasn’t yet been a reasonable explaination for why WTC 7 collapsed. I read some comment in here about the fuel tank. Well, wouldn’t that cause a building to, I dunno, EXPLODE? Yet, WTC 7 collapsed like it’s steel girders were made out of butter, falling neatly onto its own footprint. What gives?

There are too many suspicious events connected with 9/11 (insider trading, lack of air defense, buildings defying laws of physics) to simply dismiss people who have legitimate questions as “stupid.” Your piece was really nothing more than flamebait.

To answer your questions about why they didn’t implicate Iraq: They certainly tried to tie Iraq to 9/11 and were largely successful in the public’s mind. But I think they wanted to make it al Qaeda to they had an excuse to invade any country that al Qaeda had relations with (whether they really did or not). Why implicate 1 muslim nation when you can implicate all of them by proxy? This works great for conquest. Next step: Iran. Will we suddenly discover that Iran is funding al Qaeda? True or not (like the ‘taking babies out of incubators’ lie that got us into Gulf War 1), it doesn’t matter as long as it gets us in. There’s a reason we didn’t have an exit strategy for Iraq: We don’t plan to leave.

Once you understand the reasons for going to Iraq you can *almost* agree with their reasoning. The neocons rightly see a huge problem in Peak Oil, but is attacking oil-rich nations really the best way to go about solving that problem? They probably think that sacrificing 3,000 people on 9/11 is an acceptable loss in a struggle to maintain American military dominance (I disagree). We must remember that the American military is just a bunch of useless hunks of metal without one very, very key ingredient: Oil.

My balls smell like limburger.

Congratulations, Matt Taibbi. An exceptional article. I havn’t laughed as hard as I did after reading the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld “conversation” in a good while.

you may need to type that in manually, unless using standard bracketing of links in HTML doesn’t work on the RS Comments page. Seems like it likes to insert spaces…

“those three morons are a mirror for the whole country”

You wish.

So Rolling Stone wants to contribute to the “Dividing and Conquering” of the American people? Is this the same magazine that helped John Lennon get his “give peace a chance” messages out?

Doesn’t look that way. How sad…

1. These loose change guys look like a boy band. The whole documentarian = rock star thing is played out… um, yo.

2. What Matt is addressing in his article is something I’ve seen several conspiracy theorists do. It’s taking small pieces of information from various sources and creating an alternate narrative. It’s essentially cut-and-paste with the facts. They’ll quote “sources” (such as newspapers) to prove their point on the small things without ever aknowleding that these sources disagree with their thesis.

I think what these theorists do is important, and they often bring up good points. Their attitude of dissent and dis-trust is healthy (to a degree). However, I tend to find that if you follow their massive theories far enough, they tend to get a little crazy. It’s the journalistic equivalent of G. G. Allin shitting on stage, then throwing it at people. It’s nice to know people are out there pushing the boundries of what you can do (and what questions you can ask) but it doesn’t neccesarily mean I want to be in the first row.

Matt keep it up! The conspiracxy people will calm down soon enough: there’s a Star Tek convention soon……….

Wow Don, I haven’t seen or heard a GG Allin reference in years. Well done.

Regarding collapsing buildings dropping straight down (vemrion, mellio, etc), don’t most modern metropoli have design and construction codes that require a building drop straight down in the event of a catastrophic failure? When is the last time a US skyscraper fell over sideways, for any reason? Gravity sucks.

BTW if anyone has info on where my shampoo is currently stashed, please write.

As with all major events, the right side (fictional)version of a story needs a left side (fictional) version of a story. This allows me to find the crumbs of TRUTH that are found somewhere in the middle.
One thing that I never do, is dismiss any version of any story as bieng without merit.

Thank you Matt for addressing the increasingly ridiculous 9/11 conspiracies that have been circulating. As you point out these theories are completely lacking in any basic logic or common sense. And for those who buy into this nonsense, just know that Charlie Sheen supports you 100%. That’s good company. When it all comes to a head, at least you know the star of Two and a Half Men has got your back!

Any “conspiracy theorist” does not have have the burden of proof. The 9/11 commission has that burden. They tried to prove that Bin Laden carried out the attacks but failed to do so. They left so many questions open that are the most important questions. If I or anyone else can prove they lied about ONE FACT, especially if that fact is central to the government’s argument, then the WHOLE THEORY COLLAPSES, much like the demolition of the WTC.

It was said below.. that once the official THEORY of what happened is dead, then we can have a real investigation and find out how certain elements in the administration and military carried out this atrocity.

I ask one final question. Did Osama give a stand down order to keep fighter jets from intercepint the airliners? Din he also conduct war-games on 9/11 that simulated aircraft crashing into the WTC, Pentagon, Capitol, and Sears tower? There were so many “fake” blips on the radar that morning that air traffic controllers had no idea which were real and which were excersise. This was apparantly done to keep fighters from intercepting. Did Osama Bin Laden change SOP to take shoot down orders away from the hands of generals and only into the hands of Prez, VP and SOD? No. Cheney did.

Everyone just needs to research this topic instead of relying on columnists to tell them what to think and how to think it.

Think for yourself. It’s not illegal yet.

K-Fed is responsible for the WTC.

No, Ryan, the burden of proof for any theorist, conspiracy and otherwise, rests SQUARELY on the person positing the theory. Poking holes in an official account of the attacks, whether those holes are legitimately poked or not, does not constitute a theory. This is precisely the kind of faulty deduction the conspiracists have engaged in. They find some apparent gap in our knowledge about what happened on 9/11 and then extrapolate a fabulously unsubstantiated account for what ‘really’ happened. It is simply poor reasoning, and cannot be taken seriously at this juncture.

The hysterical ad hominem attacks on people who criticize the conspiracists only reinforces the notion that the 9/11 Inside Jobbers are incapable of dealing with facts and evidence in a competent fashion.

I don’t really agree or disagree with 9/11 theories. Both the “official” story and the conspiracy theories have gaps in them. Two points though.

1. You so graciously assume that the government wouldn’t kill it’s own people. Why make up fake airplane passengers when you can just crash a real flight? And why would they bother to inform anyone other than the core people? For example, why the hell would they tell Giuliani? Keep it to a minimum.

2. Where are the black boxes? They recovered the one from Pennsylvania but no mention of the ones from the NYC crash site.

Liberals, aka zionist supporters, aka emotional wrecks(just read their resposes)etc, etc. Any reason why this country is doomed? To listen to these anti american liberals is sickening, they sound all the same, and are so boringly predictable. With so much going on in the world, and with the availability of info today, the family pet could figure out whats going sooner than these antis would. Youd think that these “true” anti’s would at least do a little research before reacting as only liberal anti americans do.
That being said, they must be part of the zionist movement. That sounds more obvious? I could accept that more than they are just braindead.

Ryan, mellio, etc, it seems so obvious to those of us with our eyes open(and learning more every day) that this country is being run by zionists. They have turned, (not turning) this country into exactly what they intended. Its sad to see fellow non zionist americans so “dumbed” that they react the way they do to obvious facts. Yes I mean “dumbed”, like getting hit in the face with a baseball bat and still dont see the obvious. They wont even review the facts before they go off on a “typical” liberal anti american rant. I say anti american with great confidence, due to the responses that are almost scripted, and common, and so primitive and viscious, as goyim are expected. I am truly scared.

I think it’s important to read this kind of articles too: I think it brings up some nice questions to some of the theories I don’t find plausible.

Still – Taibbi fails to tell that there are left still a million of unanswered questions about 9/11. Should people just leave the case like that, and trust the government that lies pathologically?

Crackpot theories (i.e. the white plane, the missle into the pentagon, robot-planes, nuclear devices bringing down the tower, etc.) need to be eschewed as if Karl Rove had anything to do with the Truth Movement, that’s where his thumbprints would be. Lets stick with observable facts and see what science can recreate.

1. Planes crashed.
2. Buildings fell.

Cause and effect applied 1-2 leads one to believe that the buildings fell because of the planes.

This logic is simple and widespread, also the simplest answer is often the best. As this is a media event, it is burned into the minds of Americans that 1 led to 2. However the jet fuel (kerosene) was shown to only have burned at 600 degrees F a whopping 1900 degrees less than was is needed to melt steel and molten steel was found in the footprint of the tower creating pools of heat for weeks after 9/11. Also the two tallest buildings in the world fell directly to the ground, only grazing a nearby building (WTC7) along the top. That building also fell straight into its footprint. The odds of these three occurrences happening without orchestration is astronomical.

I’m not sure who crashed the planes, robots, Pakistan, Al-Qaeda – whatever. However, I’m pretty sure The Powers That Be (not just appointees by Bush’s Admin, career guys too) foresaw and failed to combat the terrible things that were to come.

Pride will be the downfall of this country. Everything is turning into rediculous rants and actions fueled solely by their anger and nothing is getting done. It may not be physical yet, but this country is in a civil war, and it’s prideful beligerance (sp?) and intolerance that is keeping it going. The refusal to listen and cooperate (on BOTH sides) is what is ruining the government and it’s country.

Lets go Phillies WAHOOOOOOO!

WHERE’S MY SHAMPOO?

Proff,
Don’t be a jackass. Liberals are NOT anti-american. Just because we currently disagree with the policies of this administration does not mean we want “the” terrorists to win. Because if ANY of these theories are even half true, it seems our government are the terrorists. If it makes you feel better about yourself and your opinions to think so, fine. Don’t lump everyone into the same group. Are you a bible thumping, rifle toting, redneck? Your post sounds very neo-con.

My mom blows goats.

Yankees Suck.

I think it’s unrealistic to put 100% belief in the official story just as it’s unrealistic to believe the conspiracy theories. But is it ridiculous to assume that the government knew about the attacks ahead of time and allowed them to happen so The Bush Boys could push their Project for a New American Century foreign policy agenda? I think not. With every lie, distortion, and power grab that has been unearthed in the past five years it is extremely naïve to believe that they have any reason to tell us the truth. It’s a simple fact that we will never fully understand the specifics of what happened in the preparation and execution of the 9/11 attacks.

Whos the fucking imposter?

The United States and other western governments have been carrying out false flag attacks on there people for the last 50 years. 9/11 is nothing knew, its just a false flag on a larger scale.
Look up these other incidents and documents.
Gulf of Tonkin
Operation Northwoods
Operation AJAX

All designed as ways to start wars.

Anyone who argues that we are not allowed to see these tapes that the FBI seized…you would think a government with an endless supply of resources could afford kick ass special effects to make videos that show proof….but no.

Oh, would that be too ridiculous for you? Okay, I guess it would be harder to shut a couple of FX dorks in the midst of the HUNDREDS of people they would have to shut up too…

Anyway, here’s how the arguement goes..and it will never change.

Right: You guys are crazy
Left: Think for yourselves, man!

Both sides are incredible stupid AND useless.

A lot of conspiracy theorists are NOT liberals. I’ve seen several who use their theories to support the argument for less gun control. This makes them very far from the ‘hippie’ liberals many people seem to be painting here. Many blame Bill Clinton for the attacks. It’s unfair to say that if you’re a liberal you believe these theories, or vice versa.

A point from the story that some of you seemed to miss was, simply put, ‘if we were going to fake a terrorist attack to jusitfy a war with Iraq, why not say Iraq attacked us?’ Think about how different our current dialogue about the Iraq quagmire would be if most Americans believed Saddam Hussein attacked us on 9/11. The administration wouldn’t have needed to focus on Afghanistan (not that they really did anyway) and wouldn’t currently be answering tough question about Osama bin Laden.

If you believe these theories, that’s fine, but where’s the outrage? I mean, your government killed 3,000 innocent people! Shouldn’t you be devoting every second of your life to trying to wake people up to this fact? If you honestly believe these theories, there’s nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong with being apathetic to something so horrific.

Presenting scientific facts, video evidence, and the opinions of demolition experts is NOT hopeless or stupid. Mr. Taibbi glosses over the evidence presented by the filmmakers to get cheap laughs. How about a point by point rebuttal of the evidence presented? Debate the message, the messenger is irrelevant.

Proof is in the responses…

Good job grouping liberals in with zionists. I will never ever support zionism and I’m as liberal as they get.

Proof is in the responses…

And also, if you’re so anti-zionist shouldn’t you be anti-American as well? We’ve directly funded the Israeli military, including their nuclear weapons program, exacerbating the human rights problems.

Occam’s Razor says that entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity. Roughly translated, the simplest ansewer is almost always the correct one.

Now, what’s simpler? That a bunch of crazy fuckers crashed planes into a building or that the goverment that can’t clean up New Orleans after a hurricane, has bunngled wars in Iraq and Afganastan and gets caught everytime they try to do something clandestine orginized a massive consiperacy?

And to all this talk of how buildings collapse, to the best of my knowledge, nothing like what happened on 9/11 has ever happened before or since. So whose to say how things should have happened?

You just nailed it!!!!! Bah ha ha ha……

OK, I read some of the conspiracy theorists theories and I have to say… If it smells like a duck, and it walks like a duck…
Maybe if Taibbi’s article didn’t have such an angry tone I would give him the same credence as I did the conspiracists. NEVER hurts to ask how? why? WTF?

You guys are incapable of finding a bottle of shampoo. What makes you think you can bring down the US federal bureaucracy with the spooky powers of your imaginations?

Deception is in the mind of the beholder. That’s rule number one here at the Office of Internal PsyOps, where we work hard every day making sure you conspiracy pros never discover HEY!@%^%WHATTHEHELL(*^(^&^(&^& )GETOUT%(%&*&(*ARRRRRRGGGHH… ……………

Jeepers I can’t wait for the Rolling Stoned endorsement of Hillary for President to save us all from the “stupid” and incompetent Bush Administration.

Stupid enough to rig two elections (per RS articles, check your archives for footnotes). Let’s see. Countless thousands of GOP insiders conspire to commit widespread acts of voter fraud, including crooked electronic voting machines and….drum roll please… a phony terrorist red alert at the Ohio counting office to lock out the press. I’m reading from RS here oh leftgatekeeper. I didn’t here a protest from Kerry. Maybe he’s in on it, maybe they paid him off.

So, election of 2004 stolen. This is believeable. 9/11 was inside job is… hopeless stupidity.

Seems reasonable.

Then there’s Iraq, which you kindly point out was unnecesary because the US is so quick to go to war. Like in Vietnam where a fictitous attack was fabricated (search Rolling Stone archives for Tonkin bay, genius). 58,000 Americans DEAD.

McNamara: We make it out like the Vietnamese Navy attacks our destroyers, like Pearl Harbor or something.

Johnson: Vietnamese NAVY. You really think the American Public will believe a ridiculous story like that?

Rusk: If they don’t accept it, we’ll ridicule the conspiracy theorists until the media jumps on

58,000 dead. Crazy conspiracy nuts think that was staged. So does McNamara, come to think of it. You can look that up.

Let’s see. The stupid incompetent Bush Administration will have spent in excess of 1 trillion dollars on surplus defense by 2008 (barring the inevitable next war). 99% of all defense manufactuiring contracts goes to US defense companies.

Forget the yellow cake scam. Forget the Mohommad Atta meeting with Iraqi inteligence “never happened” according to the senate intelligence comittee. Forget that Al Qaeda had no ties to Saddam. Forget that the UNSCOM team had been in Iraq for 10 years and LOUDLY proclaimed there were NO WMD’s in Iraq prior to the invasion. Forget that all of this was chalked up as intelligence failures after the fact. You would have to be a conspiracy nut to believe that the government could conspire to fabricate so much evidence that results directlyt in 3,000 dead Americans and 40,000 dead Iraqis with no end in sight.

There is no precendence for believing the government could ever conspire to do something as heinous as kill its own people on its own soil by creating a fictitous cause for war. No, it is of the highest moral imperative that the government create the fictitious cause for war and let its citizens die on foreign soil.

If you want a comprehensive story (and I doubt you do), I suggest Mike Ruppert’s Crossing the Rubicon.

Your lack of depth in understanding and failure to investigate your accusations, your mockery of the one third of America who DOES in fact believe 9/11 was orchestrated or at least permitted, is a disgrace to your magazine, and more pointedly you are a disgrace to the memory of Hunter Thompson, whose presence your diatribe here reminds me is so sorely missed. Hunter believed the Bush administration was behind the attacks. How I would love to see you call him a hysterical paranoiac with no grasp on reality while you waste the pages of a good magazine with hypocritical slander of your readership.

2004 election was a fraud…ha! what a bunch of moonbat loons.

You all need to stop calling names and do some research. Instead of attacking our credibility and integrity, why not debate us on the facts about what ahppened and did not on 9/11? Why can’t you tell me why WTC 7 fell and why its owner admitted in an interview that it was pulled? Why can’t you tell me how a plane crashed in PA but there was hardly any debris and the coronor for that county stated that he never saw any bodies at the scene?

Savage and myopic. Has anyone who cheers Taibbi stopped to actually consider what he has said?

“Wow, look, a whole bunch of 9/11 theories that all combined together make a completely unintelligible mass!” Perhaps because they are a “whole bunch of 9/11 theories.”

More than one. Multiple. Right now I am holding up my hand starting with one finger (you can guess which one) and slowly adding another and another. After that first finger? Right, multiple fingers.

When the commission ended, 9/11 widows stood up and shouted angrily at nothing being answered. The evidence was removed from the scene against the orders of the FBI (they demanded nothing be destroyed from the scene after people were caught stealing souvenirs) and recycled by various federal organizations.

The inability of the NIST report to come to conclusive answers on how the WTC towers fell, the inability of conspiracy theorists to concur on a timeline of what happened, these are all due to a lack of evidence.

But there is evidence to be found lying everywhere. Stand-down orders given. Dick Cheney not giving a shoot-down order for an hour after Bush gave the command. Coincidental war games. Even members of the 9/11 commission produced a preliminary draft in which they questioned Dick Cheney’s role in the entire affair but were told to revise it to remove their concerns.

The 9/11 anti-conspiracy folks focus on those strawmen that easily ignite while waving the flag of lack of evidence to convince people not to stare too hard at it. Of course it’s easier to argue details on facts you have access to, but Rumsfeld said it best: “The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.”

It’s how we find black holes after all (which may not exist, but I like that metaphor so I’m sticking with it).

why were all those soudis allowed to leave the country right after the attacks?
Why was it when all other flights were grounded and american citizens were stranded at airports, special planes were commissioned to pick up soudi nationals against the FBIs wishes to question those people?
13 of the 19 hijackers were soudi nationals, some trained in afghanistan by the CIA to fight against russia and then abandoned when the war was over.

Tabbai believes 9/11 was an inside job! I know it because of why he disses the “conspiracy theorists”: because they give the right wing fascists another reason to vote Republican! Shit though…maybe he’s right. These people could throw us all in a Khazikstani prison just for speaking our “hostilities towards the u.s.” Kind of makes you want to vote democratic doesn’t it? If you’re American I’d hope so.
eddie torres
I got your shampoo bottle. It’s currently residing in my gf’s ass as a stand in for my cock while it’s out doing more productive things. It smells quite pleasent by the way. Thanks for the experience.

“The only positive thing about these dangerous conspiracy theories is that it gets people asking questions. That’s a start, but it shouldn’t end at the theory.”
I couldn’t agree more Dave. Lets get a real investigation going and see what they come up with. Oh, by the way, that in itself is the ONLY goal espoused by the 9/11 truth commission.

“the burden of proof for any theorist, conspiracy and otherwise, rests SQUARELY on the person positing the theory. Poking holes in an official account of the attacks, whether those holes are legitimately poked or not, does not constitute a theory. ”
Brik-a-Brack
That’s the lamest thing I’ve ever heard. Here we have thousands of ametures uncovering obvious falsehoods in the “9/11 Commission report”. Isn’t that enough to start a new investigation. Or have we become such sheep that we really don’t care what happened as long as we don’t have to face the idea that it could have been anyone except BinLoud’n. Ever notice how much more we hear from Osama when its an election year? For anyone willing to dig, there’s a whole lot more than 9/11 that’s rotten here. No jingoistic cries of ‘traitor’ diminish the facts of an OBVIOUS GOVERNMENT COVER-UP.

“the burden of proof for any theorist, conspiracy and otherwise, rests SQUARELY on the person positing the theory. Poking holes in an official account of the attacks, whether those holes are legitimately poked or not, does not constitute a theory. ”

Why is an “official account” of the attacks not a theory?

“Your lack of depth in understanding and failure to investigate your accusations, your mockery of the one third of America who DOES in fact believe 9/11 was orchestrated or at least permitted, is a disgrace to your magazine, and more pointedly you are a disgrace to the memory of Hunter Thompson, whose presence your diatribe here reminds me is so sorely missed. Hunter believed the Bush administration was behind the attacks. How I would love to see you call him a hysterical paranoiac with no grasp on reality while you waste the pages of a good magazine with hypocritical slander of your readership.”

Amen, brother. AMEN.

“What makes you think you can bring down the US federal bureaucracy”

What makes you think we cannot?

Man, what an awful article, Taibbi. I wish I got paid to spout pure bullshit without having to do any research. Hunter S. Thompson you ain’t. Oh and by the way, as someone else pointed out earlier, HST didn’t buy the official 9/11 story either. HST was a very smart guy, well of aware of how the world works (not some liberal fantasy land where everybody has good intentions *puke*).

You’re not half the writer he was.

Reasoning like this proves it:

“I have two basic gripes with the 9/11 Truth movement. The first is that it gives supporters of Bush an excuse to dismiss critics of this administration. I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change dickwads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes.”

So, basically, you don’t like the movement because the big, mean Bush supporters really hate it. Wow. You are indeed a paragon of moral and intellectual strength (*puke!*).

Who gives a fuck what they think? You think that Bush supporters are wrong, don’t you? And yet you still allow them to define the terms of the debate! What utter, simpering cowardice! With an attitude like that, you’ve lost before you’ve even begun.

Let’s not forget the fact that you’re wrong about Republicans picking up 5 (or any) votes whenever a 9/11 truther speaks. Quite the contrary, Bush’s approval ratings have plummetted since the movement gained strength and now around a third of the nation has serious doubts about the official story. Meanwhile you do nothing to rebut the Truthers; instead you merely mock them and insult them baselessly. Then you wonder why they insult you back. (”How rude! I have no idea why they’ve called me names!”) I’m surprised an venerable organization like Rolling Stone is employing such a writer.

HST was a train wreck oakie with an illegal basement arsenal he scammed from crooked ATF stormtroopers.

As far as bringing down the US federal bureaucracy mellio, it’s the only thing protecting you from a glorious future giving lap dances to Chinese bank officials at their winter palaces in Vegas.

If you don’t own influence, it owns you. Your only hope is anonimity.

And who would want to question anything this “administration” has done?

God knows, they have been so up-front on their “involvement” with Enron, “Executive Privilege” to keep the Enron notes secret(Maybe 9/11 was planned then), the plan to get Bush “elected” even though he didn’t win, the “documents” the Bush administration pushed to illegitimately speed-initiate “war” against Iraq, the strange retarded delay in getting adequate help to Katrina victims(human life seemed to matter little to Bush/Cheney/Rove or in the death of 130,000 innocent Iraqis, or our 2,600 troops who gave up their lives in the “war”).

Now, Intelligence Reports conclude, “the invasion of Iraq has produced more terrorism-we are less safe now”.

Oh, No, “Conspiracy Theories” are
out of the question, unless it’s the Republicans going after Bill Clinton and his professional and personal life…..

No Bush-sympathizer wants to think he and his two Creepy sidecars(Cheney and Rove)are capable of such horrors or want to question the Great “Leader’s actions…

Who knows what the Government has and is hiding(?)

Taibbi is too journalistically superficial and a little lite on his attempt to downplay some very suspicious events and tragic scientific “finds”….He seems to always give Bush and pals the “Benefit of the Doubt”-that, I find suspicious….

So much easier that way….

Lovely. True. Right to the point. Thank you for poiting out just HOW much of an embarresment film-school reject Avery and Co is.

You’ll probably notice that there are basically no engineers who associate themselves with the 9/11 truth movement. The reason of course being that they are smart enough to understand the behavior of structural steel subjected to fire and the kind of structural design utilized in the towers. Most of the people espousing these conspiracy theories probably couldn’t pass an introductory calculus course, and therefore have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

“As far as bringing down the US federal bureaucracy mellio, it’s the only thing protecting you from a glorious future giving lap dances to Chinese bank officials at their winter palaces in Vegas”

Yes, but you still don’t answer why you think it can’t be done. Coward.

What are you going to do about it? Roll over and play dead? Whine some more?

What a pathetic diatribe, typical of the wretched nu-Amurikan stupidity. If the Constitution is shredded completely, guys like you will be whining the loudest: “but…but…we had no idea! Why? WHY?”

By the way, don’t forget to cut/paste the links posted, and remove the obvious spaces inserted by this blog page…

“HST was a train wreck”

Most genius writers were. It doesn’t negate anything they actually wrote.

Jesus, by your standards, Ernest Hemingway and Sylvia Plath shouldn’t be taken seriously, either.

Typical nu-Amurikan mentality. When you have nothing else, shoot the messenger…

A bit of sense, at last. IF there was a (US Government) conspiracy then I doubt it had anything to do with hologram aircraft and all the rest of the nonsense. By far simpler is just to install a well briefed bearded man in a cave in Afghanistan and then let him run.

I believe that a number of young Arab men hijacked a number of US airliners that day and flew them into buildings. They were inspired (and supported) by Bin Laden and a loose organisation called Al Queada.

Who inspires and supports Bin Laden and Al Queada is another question which is well worth asking. However I doubt we will ever discover the answer to that one – whether it is buried in an archive in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or the US.

_Let Them Eat Cake_ has given the most pertinent comment here.

The conspiracy against the 9/11 conspiracy is insidious, planned and controlled by the media which is controlled by, I’ll call them, “special interest” group/groups.

Like the Kennedy Assassination, Americans will never have the full truth.

And, most Americans will continue to believe that our military are in the mid-east because of 9/11.

What a bad joke that is!

Lets go Phillies WAHOOOOOOOOO!

BK said: “You’ll probably notice that there are basically no engineers who associate themselves with the 9/11 truth movement.”

Are your fingers broken, BK? Is there a problem with your ISP that results in you not being able to use Google? Maybe instead of making ignorant comments you should do something that Taibbi didn’t do: RESEARCH!

Because I’m a nice guy I’ll get you started:

Charles N. Pegelow (Structural Engineer)
Jerry Russel (Masters in Engineering, Stanford)
Jeff King (Engineer, MIT)
Van Romero (demolitions expert, New Mexico Institue of Mining and Technology)
Rodger Herbst (Mechanical Engineer)
Gordon Ross (Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering)

There are more. Find them yourself.

Part of what tells me Taibbi’s on to something here is the extremely negative reaction from both sides of the ideological divide. Anyone who manages to piss off the left and the right simultaneously can’t be all bad…

mellio, “When you have nothing else, shoot the messenger…” Complete agreement.

As far as bringing down the US federal bureaucracy with wild conspiracy theories, I have no fear of it. Because all of my financial and retirement investments are in Euros and Reals. Just like Dick Cheney’s. Aren’t yours?

The US federal bureaucracy is the only hope for people without any net worth. But it’s been mortgaged to the Saudis, China, and Japan. So, if you overthrow it, you’d better hope you can move somewhere else. The Saudis certainly don’t care about US citizens and their civil rights, and neither do the Chinese. The Japanese will be very polite while they repo your house and auction your pets.

US treasury bonds will be more worthless than toilet paper, and so will America and everything in it. Including the Constitution.

Vemrion -

Before claiming somebody else hasn’t done research, maybe you should do more of your own.

Because I’m a nice guy, I’ll get you started:

Jeff King is received a BS in ELECTRICAL engineering from MIT about 20 years ago. Not only is his degree completely unrelated to structural engineering, but he hasn’t even practiced electrical engineering in about 20 years.

Your down to 6 experts now. Only one of which is a structural engineer. If you want to know who supports the official story, take the entire structural engineering community and subtract the names you listed.

Alright, it’s hopeless.

If you cut and paste the path, be sure to take out the %20 that appears when you paste it into your browser.

tbot: BK said “engineers” not “structural engineers.” I supplied engineers. You’re moving the goalposts.

At any rate, this is a rather pointless exercise since there are plenty of engineers on both sides of the debate. I say instead of just debating it, we test a hypothesis. I suggest that we fly empty planes (with full fuel tanks) into large skyscrapers and see if any of them fall. If a 767 can take down a 110 story office building (by colliding with the top portion of the building), why do we even need controlled demolition teams? Why not just slam a plane into the building? It’s much cheaper and the building will collapse into its own footprint, right?

We can even let the building burn for hours and then it will spontaneously collapse on its own, right?

I’m betting it won’t. You want to take that bet?

Sigh… After your great, better yet brilliant, recent “Why Ask Why” column I was really shocked to see something so childish and irresponsible as this article. It would appear you’ve been living the same type of decadent lifestyle you criticized in “Why Ask Why”, because you apparently don’t have time to read any books, just time to watch amateur videos.

It’s almost like you went into a coma on 9/12/01, woke up five years later and heard there was a “9/11 truth movement” and decided that all the research you would do is watch one low-budget movie and then say the whole movement is crazy just because of that.

Since you can only watch videos, go to Google video and watch “9/11: Press for Truth” (1:24), “The Great Conspiracy” (1:10), and “The Truth & Lies of 9/11″ (2:18)by Mike Ruppert (Also the author of Crossing the Rubicon, also the LAPD officer who helped Gary Webb expose the CIA for running tons of cocaine into L.A. in the ’80’s, who has now fled the country after being terrorized by the feds for exposing them.)

Oh, and if you’re NOT too lazy to read, pick up “The Big Wedding” by Sander Hicks and see where that leads you.

I’m not a Christian anymore, but there’s one line in the Bible that I hang onto and it’s this:
“Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”

You want to change the world? Don’t be like the decadent, dumbed-down masses of this country. Be open-minded and do your research. I guarantee you if you look, you will find plenty of fire in all of the 9/11 smoke.

Remember- it was a banch of crazy idiots that first said the world wasn’t flat.

Peace,
Rob
(former Bush supporter and camapign contributor)

Rob,

Do you believe that explosives brought down the towers and WTC7? Do you believe that anything other than flight 77 hit the Pentagon? Do you believe that flight 93 was shot down?

Thank you for such an intelligent analysis; a great read. Of course the Tinfoilers have nothing to offer but ad hominem attacks and zero expertise.

The only true conspiracy theory is the one about a bunch of dudes armed with box cutters bringing down a couple of large passenger planes. Does that make sense to you?

Rob, anyone with access to an ocean or the night sky, figured out that the world was round. The only people who refused to acknowledge it was the Catholic Church.

That’s right, kiko. It’s much more plausible that the evil gubmint laced the buildings with indestructible, remote-detonatable, scentless, invisible explosive that hasn’t been invented yet. And they hired thousands of highly-specialized serial killers to do it.

Fight the power, yo.

Thank you! It’s about time somebody stood up and put a rhetorical smackdown on this preposterous movement.

TK001 said: “It’s much more plausible that the evil gubmint laced the buildings with indestructible, remote-detonatable, scentless, invisible explosive that hasn’t been invented yet.”

What the hell are you talking about? Why would the bombs be indestructable? Doesn’t that defeat the purpose? And what’s so implausible about remote denotation? Would you rather be in the building like the victims of this heinous terrorist attack? I’m also unclear on why they would have to be scentless (bomb-sniffing dogs were removed from the buildings just before 9/11) or invisible since they would be placed on the steel beams, not on some guy’s desk. It’s worth noting that there were building-wide power-downs just before 9/11 as well.

Once again it’s nothing but straw-men and empty rhetoric from the deniers. I’d exhort you to research the suspicious activity of that day again, but I know I’d be wasting my breath.

Sigh… I guess you have your mind made up. It’s so much easier than challenging your perceptions or questioning authority, isn’t it?

Taibbi sees Truthers as embodiments of modern America and I see Deniers as the same. Whereas once America was filled with people who questioned authority and didn’t give a damn about the status quo, now we’ve become a nation of obedient drones who kneel before authority. Taibbi’s more interested in winning pointless horseraces than the pursuit of truth. He doesn’t seem to realize that the Democrats are just as owned by the elite as the Republicans. As Chomsky says, there’s only one party: The Business Party (with the reps & dems being merely factions). Big Biz controls both, so if you think the Democrats are going to save you from Bush you’re sadly mistaken. Both parties are totally corrupt and more interested in their own power than the good of America. They bicker amongst each other, but they show a united front when it comes to disenfranchising those who want a 3rd or 4th option. Meanwhile the media does it’s best to maintain the pseudo-duopoly.

As Vichy-Americans like Taibbi make clear by example, there’s no hope for redemption amongst the media, nor amongst the Democrats. There’s only one group who can take back our country, get our rights back and hold the criminal fascists responsible: We The People.

“Because all of my financial and retirement investments are in Euros and Reals”

Smart man. If I had investments, they’d be in Euros. I just have ’savings’, which is going to be spent before long.

I got my passport before it had to be chipped. The Balkans region is well into reconstruction, now that their civil war is over. I’ll be emigrating before too long.

Go ahead, get uppity, folks. Plenty of people saw Hitler coming, too, and they had the good sense to get out before the sh*t hit the fan.

You get one nut case from Hollywood talking about a conspiracy theory and all the ‘useful idiots’ out there jump on the band wagon, like they know for sure what the hell they are talking about. I call it Twilight Zone mentality…they formulate a new story or ‘theory’ every stinkin’ week. The terrorists are just loving these jerks.. I think it is their form of entertainment..watching US fight each other…what morons!

i don;t think W needing any extra direction to look like an idiot while reading My Pet Goat.

and, you can call it a conspiracy theory if I can call it a coincidence theory. the fact that someone can’t even look at the possibility that this was a partial inside job amazes me. The administration has been lying to us since day 1, yet people believe their story with no questions asked?

After reading some of the crap on this post, kiddies, I am convinced that the enemy is laughing at you guys…I am not usually speechless, but this garbage is just,well..garbage. I think there must be a run on tin foil at the local market…this conspiracy theory belongs over at Area 51…makes about as much sense. Get yourselves a bit of education.. and grow up some…man alive…there are lot of ‘useful idiots’ around and I think I just found the mother load.

Okay, Sandy. If you know so much, do you want to have a debate about this? It’s pretty easy to disparage others, but what about when it comes time to put up or shut up?

Sorry, but there is no debating fairy tales…they are made up in childlike minds, and unfortunatley they grow even wilder with time. Like I said, the enemy loves you guys…you are their entertainment. LOL

Funny and insightful. I’m glad you are writing for Rolling Stone and not actually managing campaigns. You are correct in that such lunacy legitimizes right wing criticism. In an effort to demonize an administration they hate, they impugn so much more, including every first responder on the scene. Cast aspersions on the NYFD. That’s a classy move and a winning strategy if I ever heard one. Politically, I think it advantageous, but honestly I find it sickening that so many people harbor such deep anti-American sentiments. By the way, you forget to mention the logistics of such a plot. Bush was inaugerated on January 22nd. His full team was not assembled until months later. Such a complicated plot, at a minimum, would take years to coordinate in light of the fact that the plot included Al Queda, the FBI, the FAA, NORAD, etc… which leads to the conclusion that Bush arranged this plot as Governor of Texas or better yet owner of the Texas Rangers or, to the horror of liberals, this was a plan conceptualized and arranged during the Clinton admnistration and executed under Bush. Oh America is just so evil. That Noam Chomshy is so smart.

Swamp Yankee….Ditto, man. I just get such a tickle from the conspiracy theorists..first we are told George Bush is an idiot..a big one..then we are told we must believe that he masterminded the destruction of the WTC. Like I said, I uncovered the ‘useful idiot ‘mother load.

Maybe Vemrion would like to comment on TK1000’s timeline? It includes all the 9/11 deniers claims, so to him it must be true?

I was sad to see Taibbi’s article. I’ve read everything else he’s written that I could get my hands on. Now he’s fallen victim to the same temptation that enthralls the journalists he hates–stoking his ego by throwing chum into the water and reveling in the resulting commotion. His central argument, that the 911 conspiracists lack a plausible alternative theory, is worthless. All that’s required is reasonable doubt and there’s no question that 9-11 conspiracy theorists have met that standard. I’ve seen enough photographic and scientific evidence to convince me that the three buildings that fell that day–the first three steel-framed buildings to collapse because of fire in history–were brought down by controlled demolition. Dismissing this evidence because of the lack of a cohesive alternative theory is asinine. Printing this drivel in the same magazine that published “The Man Who Sold the War” and, yes, Taibbi’s article on the U.S. Congress is beyond asinine.

Hey Pete…. When did they sneak in and plant the explosives??? Even the professionals, cut steel beams to weaken the structure before they blow it. Where was all this explosive hidden? Why the two hour delay to blow WTC #7??? You guys lost the election, get over it!!!

Here’s what I don’t get about all these 9/11 conspiracy theories, and I hesitate to call them that. The Bush goverment (the same goverment you all are alleging had some part in 9/11) can’t bug phones without fucking it up. I mean shit, even Nixon was able to pull that off for a little while 30 years before sattelite technology made the job easier. J.Edgar Hoover was bugging phones and buildings for 30 years and really didn’t get caught until the end. Am I supposed to believe that this goverment, that has shown time and time again that they are functionally incompetent, would be able to pull something of this magnitude after just one year in office? That’s the only logic that doesn’t add up here.

There was no conspiracy to set up Pearl Harbor, there was no conspiracy to kill JFK or RFK or MLK, and there was no conspiracy to set up 9/11. Shit happens. Let’s try and focus on what’s going on in the world now, with nuclear threats from Iran and North Korea, I think there are a lot more important events in the world than possible nefarious plots.

i happen to know of more than a few people who’s offices were in the parking lot of the pentagon (military people who can probably tell the difference between a plane and a missile) and saw the plane come in and hit the building. wait, how silly of me, they must be lying because they work for the government, just like thos military colonels who lied about the iraq war. what’s that? they’ve actually been criticizing the war? nevermind.

Sandy said: “first we are told George Bush is an idiot..a big one..then we are told we must believe that he masterminded the destruction of the WTC.”

Yeah, it’s probably a good thing you’re too scared to debate me if this is the best you can do. Yet another straw-man. I don’t think anyone, anywhere, EVER has suggested that Bush is the mastermind of anything! Bush, like you, is mentally incapacitated by ignorance and deception. He couldn’t mastermind a convenience store robbery.

As for who really did mastermind it, who knows? Personally, my money is on Cheney with a lot of help from Rumsfeld. But that’s just speculation. And unlike the Deniers, I know the difference between fact and speculation.

Like I said before, we don’t need to present a full reckoning of what happened, we only need to poke enough holes into the official story so that it falls apart. It’s crumbling as we speak, and as people like you cower before the idea of debating “idiots” like me, more and more people will see that you are utterly servile and wrong. We are nearing the point where a new investigation will be required — an investigation that does not simply try to back up the neocon version of what happened, but actually asks the tough questions such as:

-What happened to our air defense?

-How come Flight 77 was doing loopty-loops over Washington D.C. without a peep from the missile batteries defending the Pentagon?

-Isn’t the Pentagon one of the best defended buildings on the planet?

-How did the hijackers pull off such complicated flying manuevers when, according to their instructors, they could barely fly?

-Why did Building 7 collapse?

-Who was behind all of the insider trading?

-How did the Towers manage to fall?

-Did jet fuel sever all 47 core beams simultaneously?

-What explains all of the squibs shooting off as the towers collapsed?

-Who benefited most from the crime?

-Who had the resources to pull off such an enterprise?

-Bin Laden has CIA ties — at what point did he leave the Agency?

-How come no one was ever fired as the result of what must be the largest fuckup in American history?

-How did they manage to identify all of the hijackers so quickly after the attacks?

-And can someone explain the AMAZING coincidence that we just happened to be engaged in massive War Games on 9/11, many involving hijackings?

Since my I’m dealing in “fairy tales” you should have no problem answering all of those questions. Please, show me the way to “reality.” I dare you.

vemrion,
Do you really think that anyone other than the President would have the authority to fire on a civilian airplane??? And I was in the military and I don’t remember the Pentagon being heavily armed that time. Of course, I must of missed the secret hidden laser beanm weapons. How do you explain the hundreds of witnesses that saw a jet fly into the pentagon???

Two things, Vemrion..First,I am not afraid to debate anyone…YOUR facts are simply fruity…I have no other way to classify your crap. To debate it would lower my intelligence to somewhere around where you are wallowing…I’ll pass your generous offer. Second, get yourself some meaningful work..you appear to spend entirely too much time on this wasteful thinking…really it is leading you to nowhere, son. A full days work is what you need….good for the body and soul. Oh! and the mind also…the brain cells need some nourishment. PUTZ!

-How did they manage to identify all of the hijackers so quickly after the attacks?

Ah… ever hear of a passenger list???

To the conspiracy nuts everywhere,
This hatred of George Bush is causing you all so much misery and heartache. Give it up and rejoice that in a mere 2 more years he will be replaced by another. Up the meds till then…and step back on to the political stage at that time…really…hatred is causing some out of controll thoughts here…it’s either you all calm down or it’s straight jacket time!

Pepsiholick: Intercepting a plane is not the same as shooting it down. They should’ve had a swarm of fighters all over each of those hijacked planes. As for a presidential shootdown order, well you have to understand: reading My Pet Goat to school children takes precedence. (why didn’t he rush to get in communication with NORAD?)

And yes, I have heard of a passenger list. Were all of the hijackers clearly marked as such? Or did they just pick Islamic-sounding names? The question stands. It’s not trivial. How did they do it? That must take a lot of investigation. They did investigate, right?

As for the Pentagon, I think a jet probably did crash into it. It’s a point of contention amongst Truthers. That’s the problem with getting our side of the story from people who hate us. It’s not gonna be a terribly accurate representation of our opinions.

Sandy: Excuses, excuses. Sounds like somebody is afraid of the truth.

…Truth be told, I don’t blame you. Sometimes I wish I didn’t know the truth. I *do* spend too much time researching this stuff; realizing your government is controlled by terrorist fascists has a way of keeping you up at night. Sleep tight.

“Better red than dead”…and the term ‘useful idiots’ was first coined by Lenin…how soon we forget what lies and distortions can bring. I sometimes think these ‘geniuses’ are helping the cause of the Bush Administration more than hurting it. Hopefully they will spin themselves dry..after they have spent all their thought on this…then what…?? Perhaps these ‘thinkers’ will finally wake up to the realization that we are in the fight for our very way of life…if the idiots who post here think the enemy would allow an iota what they have been spewing here…OH BOY!!!they need a geography lesson, for enlightenment.

debate? debate THIS Vemrion…you are an idiot…don’t be offended by the name calling..you simply are an idiot. If anyone can debate your crap…bring it on..I am speachless, really, speachless.
I declare you the winner of your debate. Your theories all make total sense. (MORON!)

vemrion,

Last I knew, our military practiced intercepting jets coming from Russia, not from New York. How many thousands of aircraft were there in the skies that day? How do you identify which aircraft when military jets aren’t configured to track passenger jet’s transponders (yes, I know that the transponders were turned off)?

Again, what does it matter that military jets didn’t intercept??? No one was going to order them shot down.

vemrion,

When are you going to read the Popular Mechanics article??? Scared of the truth???

The 9/11 conspiracy theory is one of many examples of the extreme polars that Bush has created in this country. We have ALL fallen into this trap. Both sides have become untouchable to one another. It is easy to dismiss the opposing side as “terrorists” or “idiots,” but each side has legitimate reasons (mostly) for believing in what they believe. So before we call each other names or quickly dismiss the other side, learn from the other side, find the faults and holes in their arguments (and yours), and actually try to change minds. And I am talking to all sides (conservative, liberal, 9/11 conspiracy theorist and non-conspiracy theorist). Arguments are won when minds change.

Ya know, Mike, I was just in the kitchen doing the dishes and started to talk to myself about calling names on this thread. I am mad…but that is no excuse…I appologize for the slander…Just needed to put my emotions away and start to think. I believe you understand where this comes from..
Anyway, I am sorry I made the issue about me…did not mean to do that..every theory has its merits..I was wrong…but some of the stuff is nuts…real nuts.

I love my country. I’m assuming my country is the same as your country. I’m also assuming that you love this country as well.

It seems we have something in common.

Why can’t we start there, and work our way up? Why do you instantly have to disregard what people like me are saying?

We’re not trying to tear this country apart. We’re looking for the people on 9/11, and the few days after that that stood together as nation.

We want people to do the responsible thing, and take a look at the day that changed the world. That’s all we’re asking of you.

It is true. The 9/11 Truth Movement IS divisive. It’s divisive because people like you claim that we are partisan in nature, and we’re not.

By referring to members of the movement as the “perfect byproducts of the hysterical, paranoiac Bush years”, you prove my point.

It’s not a partisan issue. It’s an American issue, and we need to deal with it.

Watch 9/11: Press For Truth.

Maybe these crazy theories are due in part to the New Media that can’t be trusted because they slant their so called objective news in the direction they want. Not to mention photos that are doctored(see Michelle Malkins column for Reuters and others making hay of the truth). I KNOW I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE ANYMORE…yOU CAN’T EVEN BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES AS THE PHOTOS ARE NOT ALWAYS WHAT THEY SEEM!!

Pepsiholick: Yes, I read the Popular Mechanics article — what do you think turned me into a Truther? I was still undecided when I read the article and it struck me as such a hateful piece of propaganda that I was compelled to do some more research on my own. Oh, and the article has been thoroughly debunked. Google it.

As for intercepting non-military jets, that’s not too hard for our military. They have radar systems that are superior to the FAAs so they can track jets’ elevation even without the transponders. In fact, interceptions are fairly common. Most are false alarms but they scramble the fighters to be sure. They scramble fighters for instrument failures, mostly as a safety measure. The fighters establish visual contact with the pilots and guide them with aerial maneuvers that every pilot is supposed to know and follow. This is a lot more common than intercepting Russian fighters and you better believe the military trains for it (and every other scenario they can think of).

Like I said, it’s quite a mystery why none of the 4 hijacked planes were intercepted. Most of the time errant planes are intercepted within 15 to 20 minutes, but the hijackings took place over a time period of almost 2 hours! And New England is not exactly sparsely populated or lacking in air bases. Fighters can fly extremely fast if they want to, so where were they?

Even if they didn’t have orders to shoot them down they should’ve been following the hijacked planes closely, waiting for the moment when the order did come through. How come no one was fired for this fuckup?

Why does this conspiracy have to involve tens of thousands of individuals? Does it really take that many people to blow up a couple buildings? Wouldn’t it just take a few well-connected people and a good special ops team?

Like I said..:”the mother load.”
‘Nite, ya’ll

“Why does this conspiracy have to involve tens of thousands of individuals?”

It doesn’t. It would only take a handful of key individuals, and a lot of coincidental planning.

Matt said: “The Bush goverment (the same goverment you all are alleging had some part in 9/11) can’t bug phones without fucking it up. I mean shit, even Nixon was able to pull that off for a little while 30 years before sattelite technology made the job easier. J.Edgar Hoover was bugging phones and buildings for 30 years and really didn’t get caught until the end. Am I supposed to believe that this goverment, that has shown time and time again that they are functionally incompetent, would be able to pull something of this magnitude after just one year in office?”

First of all, I don’t want to assume you are Matt Taibbi, but if so, please identify yourself for the sake of clarity. Thx.

Second, the Bush admin is indeed a paradox of competence and incompetence, aren’t they? They fuck up a lot, but they are also very successful about the things they care about (I don’t think they really cared about NOLA). They sure as hell succeeded in their plan to get us to invade Iraq, didn’t they? That was a crazy, hair-brained scheme and it worked. Only problem is they calculated a few things wrong in their haste. They wanted to believe that Iraqis hated Saddam, and they did. But that does not translate into love of Americans. They got sloppy.

And look at the costs of Iraq. The amount of American soldiers dead almost equals the dead on 9/11, and that doesn’t include the tens of thousands of dead Iraqis! Clearly the Bushies don’t cherish human life. They still haven’t told us exactly why they went over there. “Spreading Democracy” is a laughable rationale. If that’s the case, why not invade North Korea? If oil is discovered in NK maybe the neocons will suddenly develop a deep concern for the welfare of the North Koreans.

As for spying, I’m not sure I understand your point. Nixon got away with it for a few years and so did Bush. Both were eventually found out. This time, though, Congress is so sycophantic and servile that they’re actually trying to make it legal for Bush to violate every American’s 4th amendment rights simultaneously and continuously. Now THAT is competence. They are extremely competent when it comes to making sure their foot soldiers march in lockstep. The Republicans have a vastly superior organization and command structure, compared to the Democrats. Like I said, the Democrats are no better, but the Dems only have to roll over and play dead. They are extremely competent at playing dead, unfortunately.

As for the obvious next point, “How could they keep it secret?” Well, first, they didn’t. Look up Delmart Vreeland for more on that. Sibel Edmonds is another to check out.

Secondly, the Manhattan Project involved tens of thousands of people and it was kept secret successfully. The military is excellent at compartmentalizing things and making sure everything’s on a “need to know” basis. Many people probably helped in the attacks without even realizing it. Later, when they realized they’d been duped they also realized something else: They (or their family) could be killed if they spoke out. This ain’t no game. This is some heavy shit. The neocons have committed treason and there’s no going back. What’s one more corpse on the pile?

Look, I understand your incredulity. This is certainly something you shouldn’t swallow whole just because some guy on the internet told you so. But when you realize the official story is full of holes, you have to construct your own version of events. Conspiracy theories naturally follow — but the official story IS a conspiracy theory, so you’re stuck with that one, or one of your own making. Conspiracies are actually really common: it’s just 2 or more people talking about committing a crime, and taking steps to do it. Either 19 hijackers conspired on their own, or they were used by the government to achieve its imperialist aims. Either way it’s a conspiracy.

By the way, the Truth movement is split over whether the government simply Let It Happen or Made It Happen. There are so many unanswered questions. That’s why I think we need a new investigation. And *independent* investigation.

Oh, and that brings up one last question for you: Why did it take over a year for the 9/11 Commission to get started? Bush stalled for over 400 days. What was he trying to hide? If it were not for the 9/11 Victims’ Families we might not have even gotten a Commission at all.

To the “writer” of this “article”. Here’s one more to add to you collection: FUCK YOU!

If you wanna see what such a planning session might look like in real life, simply read the Operation Northwoods document, signed by everal single member of the joints chiefs of staff during the Kennedy administration. The plan called for fake hijackings and the murder of American citizens in order to galvanize public opinion into supporting a war against Cuba.

The attacks were conduited via the numerous ‘hijacking’ drills occurring on the morning of 911, which utilized drone aircraft. Artificial blips on radar screens made interception impossible.

Really, it’s pretty obvious. Hijacking drills at the same time as the attacks simulating the same scenario? You’d have to pretty damn dull to swallow the official story. It’s incredibly silly.

These sorts of hit pieces won’t make a dent in the 911 truth movement. We’ve already reached critical mass. Sorry folks, the fairy tale is over.

Hey Chris Rose, go fuck yourself, asshole. Take your stupid ass America hating conspiracy theories and shove them up your ass.

email this piece of garbage? to who?

if you did your homework, you’d have lots of questions that beg answers.

your article is shallow and less than intelligent.

i thought rollingstone was a bit better than this.

to pepsiholic:

Did you know the Popular Mechanics response to the 911 facts was penned by Ben Chertoff, cousin to Michael Chertoff, Director of Homeland Security?

It’s already been thoroughly debunked.

There’s this crazy ass dude named Stephen Hawkings that claims that global warming exists. He’s not even a climate doctor and talks through a tube. There’s so many of these crazy liberal types trying to tear down the president and help the terrorists steal jesus out of our schools. God damn it! They’ll even tell you that Iraq ain’t right! Now that ain’t true, they got a soccer team and a police station with indoor plumbing.

never again.

“i thought rollingstone was a bit better than this.”

I’m starting to think every “mainstream press” organ in this country has been threatened with a good, solid anthraxing if they don’t toe the line.

All the good writers must be abandoning print media for greener pastures (books, blogs, alternative cable and satellite radio). How else to explain the kind of swill who wrote the original article out here on behalf of Rolling Stone?

Wherever HST is, he has to be downright apoplectic by now…

To think about the origins of hip hop in this culture and also about homeland security is to see that there are at the very least two worlds in America. One of the well-to-do and the struggling. For if ever there was the absence of homeland security it is seen in the gritty roots of hip hop. For the music arises from a generation that feels with some justice that they have been betrayed by those who came before them. That they are at best tolerated in schools, feared on the streets, and almost inevitably destined for the hell holes of prison. They grew up hungry, hated and unloved. And this is the psychic fuel that seems to generate the anger that seems endemic in much of the music and poetry. One senses very little hope above the personal goals of wealth and the climb above the pit of poverty. In the broader society the opposite is true, for here more than any place on earth wealth is more wide spread and so bountiful. What passes for the middle class in America could pass for the upper class in most of the rest of the world. They’re very opulent and relative wealth makes the insecure. And homeland security is a governmental phrase that is as oxymoronic, as crazy as saying military intelligence, or the U.S Department of Justice. They’re just words that have very little relationship to reality. And do you feel safer now? Do you think you will anytime soon? Do you think duck tape and Kleenex and color codes will make you safer? From Death row this is Mumia Abu Jamal

You guys are all recycling the same arguments over and over. This is even too much for me to care about. Anyone who will dig will find out the obvious holes in the official story. If you don’t care to, I understand. Far be it from me to try to drag all of you out of your comfortable fantasy. With that, I will retire from this inane argument with a quote from Bobby McFerrin:
“..Don’t worry, Be Happy now..”

Yea, the illegal fuel tank. I read that in the 10/11 official report.

It was a real shame because alot of the records about enron and them ripping off california was stored there.

The people who owned those buildings made a ton of money and they bought the Sears Tower in Chicago.

Hope the terrorists don’t bring any building down in Chicago right before the election. Their sense of timing is timely.

I didn’t know Rolling Stone was also owned by the Hearst Corporation.

“I didn’t know Rolling Stone was also owned by the Hearst Corporation.”

If true, that might explain some things, ya think?

According to Stephens: “Ben Chertoff, cousin to Michael Chertoff”

Bullshit, they are no relation. Can you conspiracy fruitcakes get anything right!

the govt shills posting to this site are too obvious to be believed…

In 1998, VP Dick Cheney, then CEO of the giant oil services company, Halliburton, stated: “I cannot think of a time when we have had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian.”

There’s your answer to why the patsies weren’t Iraqi. That and the the fact that the “enemy’ has to be a shadowy Islamic nemesis hiding under every rock.

As for the idea that “Bush planned 911″, it’s a straw man and nothing more. We all know Bush is an imbecile and we all know the President is a puppet and nothing more.

The War games of 911 prove that it was an inside job. Deal with it.

Ben Chertoff’s mother states that they’re cousins. Why are you trying to hide this?

Neocons are pedophile mafia. Some real sick fucks

“Ben Chertoff’s mother states that they’re cousins. Why are you trying to hide this?”

Because it sends the discussion off in a completely pointless direction.

Don’t fall for it.

So you want me to believe the Neocons’ version of a Conspiracy Theory (“19 Arab terrorists armed with boxcutters smuggled themselves aboard 4 different planes without leaving a trace on the official passenger lists, fooled the most sophisticated air defense system of the world, piloted precisely into 75% of their targets, and were only helped by the Osama mastermind and a few helpers hiding in an Afghan cave”) ??

And you want me believe that this White House Administration, which lied in every single other Big Issue of the time, does speak truth on the issue of 9/11 ???

Next time, you are going to tell me that Bush did indeed find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq….

Hey, Tim. Afraid of getting offed like me?

By PAUL WILLIAM ROBERTS

Saturday, February 26, 2005, Page F9

Hunter telephoned me on Feb. 19, the night before his death. He sounded scared. It wasn’t always easy to understand what he said, particularly over the phone, he mumbled, yet when there was something he really wanted you to understand, you did. He’d been working on a story about the World Trade Center attacks and had stumbled across what he felt was hard evidence showing the towers had been brought down not by the airplanes that flew into them but by explosive charges set off in their foundations. Now he thought someone was out to stop him publishing it: “They’re gonna make it look like suicide,” he said. “I know how these bastards think . . .

Jst clarifying for the random reader who might stop in.

These shills certainly can’t hold their own in a discussion of the lies inherent in the BshCheneyInc version of events.

“these shills can’t hold their own”.

Nah. The three of ‘em, no matter how many different names they post under, aren’t gonna try, either…

They just hit and run. People get paid for that shit, ya know…

Leave it to Rolling Stone; did I miss it, or was there a reference to “tin foil?” There usually is in such a piece, especially from a publication that has probably been a cointel agent provocateur for decades. It’s so good for the regime, the pumping of Drugs and Sex and Rock and Roll! Sort of the anti-Mozart effect, laying the ground work for a piece like Matt Taibbi’s straw-man treatment of the 911Truth movement to slip effortlessly beneath the radar of the party-downed minds of its readers, most of whom no doubt find no end to the pleasure they take in chortling over a What-me-worry Commander in Chief, not realizing for a second he’s the ultimate patsy.

As for the actual event about which the article’s research is only deep enough to support a glib attempt at humor, indeed in consideration of what’s at stake, you get one item only. Those who take this seriously know it’s the key to the puzzle, for which the lack of a patent solution is the article’s only serious issue; never mind its avoidance of any questioning of the “official” conspiracy theory, the wildest of them all: bin Laden, the cave, the laptop, the 19 hijackers defeating with box cutters and a dozen hours in a flight simulator the $40-billion US defense system; moreover, a conspiracy presented by the regime whole cloth within 24 hours of the event…nothing suspicious about that, not to the insightful minds (or what’s left of them) at Rolling Stone. Enough of that…here’s the key. You can do your own followup research: “Angel is next.”

worldcantwait.net

well, well, well…

This is good – debate and sharing information on this is great. This is what America needs – people of different opinions researching and expressing their views, and it’s something we’ve forgotten how to do for too long.

I’ve been researching 9/11 for about eight months now, and it wasn’t because of Loose Change (a movie i have many issues with) but from ‘United 93′. I saw the ads with the passengers talking on their cell phones, and i remembered all the unanswered questions i had about 9/11, like how in 2001 could so many people have made successful calls from airliners at 30,000 feet? This led me to one question after another, and off to other topics beyond 9/11 to our corporate media to our nation’s history of false flag operations and terrorism to the Federal Reserve and World Bank systems.

9/11 goes way beyond just that day. There’s a whole history behind it. And once you understand the context of that day, you realize that noone had the capability of doing something so complicated and advanced BUT elements of our government. I’m not saying Bush. I’m saying the people behind him and his administration. For example, look at Cheyney. Everyone criticizes him for the profits he recieves from Halliburton. But who do you think has more influence – Cheyney on Halliburton or Halliburton on Cheyney? Corporations are shaping our foreign policy. Everyone in the government just about is on the board for some big corporation.

Just today on CNN was a story about the new North American Union that’s being implemented to merge Canada, the US and Mexico. I’ve been reading about this for months in the independent media, but this was the first time it made it to the mainstream that i’d seen. If the war on terror were real, this would not be happening for security reasons. Our borders would have been shut off long. But the Bush administration along with the heads of several large corporations are leading the way on it.

I voted for Bush in the last election. But i’ve learned since then that the Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin. This whole system is corrupt and electronic voting machines are the perfect tool for our decisions to be made for us. I am scared to death of what i am seeing happen to this country. And if we want to change the course that we are on, it is up to us. Our leaders are not going to change because what is in their best interest is not what is in our best interest.

“Maybe you should put that to use changing the world of today”

Only if you promise to help.

Or are you too busy?

(basic idea found href=”911blogger.com/”>el sewhe re, slightly modified by me:)

For Advanced-Degreed Physicists Only (and only after they consulted with NIST)

Here is an example of where a typical layperson can go horribly astray when confronted with what he or she may assume to be an elementary physics problem. Au contraire!

Question:

A 20-story steel structure building hangs suspended from a crane so that the bottom of the building is 2 feet directly above a 90-story steel structure building, which had 56 minutes of fire in its top 6 floors burning (now nearly finished due to lack of burnables).

Right next to this first 20-story building is another identical 20-story building suspended from another crane at an identical height above the ground, but with no building underneath it.

Both cranes let go of their respective 20-story buildings at the same time. Which one hits the ground first?

Answer:

This is actually a bit of a trick question.

Prior to 9/11/01, 100% of Advanced Physics Degree professionals would have agreed with the lesser-educated, “common sense” crowd and said that the building with nothing but air beneath it would strike the ground considerably faster than the other, which, quite honestly, could not really be expected to burrow its way through a 90-story building to reach the ground at all.

However, since 9/11/01, physicists have learned from NIST, that the answer is actually: “There will be no difference in the rate of descent between the two 20-story buildings. They will both strike the ground at the same time.”

So you see, one must always consult one’s local physics expert when questions concerning the physical universe arise!

THESE PHYSICAL LAWS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE. (Change may be subject to your religious believes — it’s just incredible what Allah can do to your physics if he wants, see?)

Please, under no circumstances, do ever assume you are up to date on the latest equations and/or theories concerning gravitation or conservation of energy and momentum.

PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO WORK THROUGH ANY TYPE OF PHYSICS PROBLEMS ON YOUR OWN AT HOME — ALWAYS CONSULT A PROFESSIONAL! Only a professional knows which laws of physics are currently being applied to describe the physical universe that surrounds us.

You may now return to your regularly-scheduled life, knowing that you are safe in the good hands of the people who you expect to watch out for you and your family’s best interests, since that would take too much time out of your day to do for yourself.

(Brought to you by the “Have you hugged your Big Brother today?” foundation in complicity with our the American Ministry of Truth.)

“glib attempt at humor”

Not even close. It’s another “divide and conquer” hatchet job.

Loose Change = “well-poisoning”

Notice whose picture is posted in this so-called “article”.

Connect the dots, baby…

Mr. Taibbi, your problem is that you are equating most of 9/11 Truth with Loose Change and physical evidence.
- Whistleblower Sibel Edmonds says she knows several high-level Americans are tied to the crimes and she is being gagged.
- The head of Pakistani intelligence wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta just before the attacks and was on Capitol Hill on 9/11 meeting with congressional intelligence leaders.
- Two 9/11 Commissioners recently revealed in a book that NORAD lied so bad they were considering referring that department to the Justice Department. Why publish a Commissioner paper based on NORAD’s lies? The NORAD timeline has changed at least three times.
- Who was running the wargames that went on that day?
- Why were intercept procedures transferred to Rumsfled the summer of 2001?
- Why did Bush ignore specific international warnings about the attacks from guys like Putin?
- Why did Ashcroft ignore warnings from a guy representing FBI agents, David Schippers, (and who prosecuted Bill Clinton, so he’s no Democratic hack)?
- Why didn’t the 9/11 Commission comment on the infamous Mineta testimony?
You should watch 9/11 Press For Truth and Everybody’s Gotta Learn Sometime and steer away from Loose Change. Also, please read Paul Thompson and Nafeez Ahmed’s books for the facts, then move on to Mike Ruppert’s book for the theory. Thank you.

“I, Left Gatekeeper” is quite funny and on the mark about the 9/11 conspiracy theorists. But you should admit that you love the gatekeeper role. “I, Left Gatekeeper” isn’t the only article in which you’re like a guard dog — a funny, smart, but ferocious guard dog, patrolling the leftward turf, going berserk when any of its denizens strays. (Articulately berserk.) What makes you think that, in that behavior, you don’t also help us and our Dark Lord Karl? As scrawled on a subway wall, “You may already be a Rove plant!” Nevertheless, the 9/11 conspiracy theorists actually deserve the treatment which you give them. Okay, I’ll stop and get down to business.

Why, in your article, does Dick Cheney keep calling Don Rumsfeld “Dick”? Hm?

“CHENEY: No, Dick, we won’t.

“RUMSFELD: We won’t?

“CHENEY: No, that’s too obvious. We’ll make the hijackers Al Qaeda and then just _imply_ a connection to Iraq.

“RUMSFELD: But if we’re just making up the whole thing, why not just put Saddam’s fingerprints on the attack?

“CHENEY: (sighing) It just has to be this way, Dick. ….”

Sure, go ahead and claim that you did it on clever purpose. We at the VRWC know better!

I do agree with your spelling “Mwah-hah-hah!”

It’s kind of a shock to read your prose when one is a New Yorker familiar with your reporter brother Mike’s calm, soft-spoken, almost muted delivery on the air. Definitely heightens the effect.

matt taibi is a moron. how could rolling stone hit the nail on the head with blatant election fraud but for some odd reason the possibility of 9/11 cover up is such an AUDACIOUS claim?!?! well rolling stone just lost one supporter. keep up the good work gatekeepers…

Larry Silverstein goes on TV and says that they demolished the building… but we are an:

‘insular movement that construct their own reality by cherry-picking the evidence they like from the vast information marketplace.’

Right yeah.

This is so disappointing after Rolling Stone ran that election story.

Patriot (and mellio – thought I’d forgotten you?):

I pledge allegiance to Uncle Dick, and to all the profits for which he stands. One board room, indivisible, with secrecy and undisclosed locations for all.

If it ever turns out that 9/11 is proved to have been an inside job, along with the perpetrators of the crime, every single journalist that helped them cover it up will be hanged for treason.

So if those of us in the 9/11 Truth Movement are all a bunch of idiots why didn’t you bother refuting our claims Matt? If we are so wrong and you are so right why don’t you just prove it. All your article did was insult us as being complete morons. BUT IF THAT WERE THE CASE ALL YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO IS PROVE THAT WORLD TRADE CENTER BUILDING SEVEN’S COLLAPSE WAS NOT A CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. The government isn’t able to do this but apparently Matt is all knowing and he knows it wasn’t. So please Matt, just explain to us why this building which was not hit by a plane came down in 6.5 seconds. Judging by your article this should be easy.

Go to google video and watch 9/11 Mysteries and see if you still think the 9/11 Truth Movement is crazy. And remember, the official story is arguing that something completely without precedent(3 Steel skyscrapers collapsing from fire in one day) is more likely than something with total precedent(governments using false flag terrorism to motivate their populace to support war).

After reading the first few paragraphs of your verbal vomit, I chose to read no further. I am sorely disappointed in rolling stone; I thought it was a publication of open ideas and thoughtful writing by “mavericks” in the media. Know I know they’re just a bunch of horse’s asses.

This kind of horseshit doesn’t deserve more than a simple “fuck you.”

Hang them ALL! Guess RS is MSM after all.

The government can’t explain WTC 7, the multiple NORAD drills (including of hijackings), Norman Mineta’s testimony about what went on with Cheney in the bunker when Cheney claims to not be there, The ISI money transfer to Al Qaeda subjects, period.

The government’s explanation of 19 hijackers and no other complicity in government is frankly, absurd.

So your attempt at debunking 911 essentially consists of the ‘it sounds a bit stupid and crazy’ method. Hmm very effective and scientific. Interesting that you do not mention or discuss even one piece of evidence. You think that people in power aren’t morally or technically capable of mass murder? Well wake up. Look at what your governments have done in almost every country in South America, Panama, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, the Phillipines. Look at the regimes they support Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia (no democracies there). Look at the people intimately involved in each case and the same names come up again and again. The neocons, those who perpetually mention the ‘new world order’. Those same people who have been involved in state sponsored terror all around the world.
Are they technically capable? Go to youtube and look up Derren Brown – The Heist. Then take a good look at yourself, realise that you really have very little insight into the human condition and quit your job as a journalist.

A six-year old can see that the “official” account of 9/11 is false.

P.S. Your Daddy got you this job, did’nt he?

Look, Dick Cheney subverted the entire US military command structure from his bunker and ordered airborne assets to shoot down Flight 93. A mostly successful cover up then ensued. Whether it really happened or not, you lot are sure gettin’ a lot of mileage out of his evil demeanor. YEAH DICK! WASTE THOSE DAMN YANKEES!

As much as these people make me want to vomit, there is something uniquely american in the conspiracy. these guys just refuse to believe that america can get duped and beat by 19 terrorists.

US Govt – you knew they were gonna spend alot to cover up the 9/11 murders. Turns out dis-info agents are all over these boards. Any post that attacks 9/11 truth as ‘nuts’ or ‘conspiracy theorists’ in the face of such overwhelming evidence (like Building 7) you can just dismiss their post and skip to the next one.

Apparently $1.5 Billion for dis-information buys alot of tin-hat wearers in the US Govt a pretty good living. Let’s see…. we’ll pay each of these numb-nuts $40,000 a year to sit in front of the computer and ‘debunk’ 9/11 truth. Fill all these shills with a sense that somehow they are ’saving America’ and other CIA bullshit. I bet the Govt. shills are propogandized even more than the average American. I could only imagine their ‘team meetings’ and pep talks.

“” I don’t have the space here to address every single reason why 9/11 conspiracy theory is so shamefully stupid, so I’ll have to be content with just one point: 9/11 Truth is the lowest form of conspiracy theory, because it doesn’t offer an affirmative theory of the crime.””

REASONING THIS LAME FULL OF INSULTS AND EMOTINAL HANG-WRINGING; ONLY GIVE MORE CREDENCE TO THESE THEORIES. GOOD JOB YOU LOOSE MOUTH DICKWAD!

Rolling Stone mag is thrash. The truth will out eventually. Wake up America! The world hates you for what your “leaders” are doing.

Eoghan,
Dublin,
Irelan d

Awesome article… 9/11 “truth” followers are just a bunch of dumb, male, 20-somethings who smoke too much weed and watch too much X-files. THANK GOD people like you can call them out for being so fucking moronic! I always wondered how someone as stupid as Bush made it to office, now I realize most Americans have the same IQ as him

Look up “Operation Northwoods” at the National Security Archives.

Do a Google search of “Operation Northwoods”

There’s a truth movement because there’s a huge problem with the official story and how it was given to us. If you can’t see that and refuse to consider a need for a truly, independent world tribunal to open a new investigation to address the anomalies associated with it, you are no better than those who hate in the name of George W. Bush.

Just ask yourself this question, “cui bono?” Common sense will tell you it isn’t Muslims…I don’t care how fanatic they are. It’s destroying their religion.

Insulting our intelligence will not make us go away. I’m a patriot in every sense of the word because I refuse to blindly allow tyranny to take control of my country. I proudly fly my American flag, but it’s displayed upside down to denote the distress we’re in.

One more thought:

Hunter S. Thompson is spinning in his grave over the kind of so-called politics being spewed by Rolling Stone these days.

did i say, “YEAH DICK! WASTE THOSE DAMN YANKEES!”? What I meant to say was, you can trust the world community to conduct an impartial investigation into 9/11. We have no reason to lie to you. It’s not like we hate America. heh. heh. ahem.

Um, I forgot to mention something about that website. It’s virulently anti-semitic, so if you’re offended by bigotry at all, you know, stay away. But if you hate Jews as much as I do it’s a great site!

Well, what did you expect? This is the same magazine that called eminem a “genius.”

Savage? Hardly. Brilliant? Does anybody really believe that? Only the shills.
One of the interesting things to do when reading such a list is that of discerning who the disinfo folks are…. Great fun.

When I see the author of this article actually put his money where his mouth is; i.e., actually debates a reputable 9/11 truth researcher (Fetzer, Jones, Griffin, Tarpley, Jones, etc.) on the -evidence-, then I may give him some credit for at least having some cojones. Until then, he simply stands as but one more hapless shill who replaces well reasoned argument with ad hominem and invective. Not terribly impressive.

Savage? Hardly. Brilliant? Does anybody really believe that? Only the shills.
One of the interesting things to do when reading such a list is that of discerning who the disinfo folks are…. Great fun.

When I see the author of this article actually put his money where his mouth is; i.e., actually debates a reputable 9/11 truth researcher (Fetzer, Jones, Griffin, Tarpley, Jones, etc.) on the -evidence-, then I may give him some credit for at least having some cojones. Until then, he simply stands as but one more hapless shill who replaces well reasoned argument with ad hominem and invective. Not terribly impressive. Based upon what I read of the author’s effort, I would lay money on my 13 year-old son if they were to debate. But, of course, the author will never debate anyone. That is not the point of the MSM offering such bilge as this article.
dr rw

It’s going to be a long time before I buy my ex-favorite magazine Rolling Stone again. So many sad things have happened and you add to the sorrow.

Fuck rolling stone. If this guy is not fired by the end of TODAY, I call for a boycott of the magazine and EVERY SINGLE company that advertises any product in rolling stone. I see a wendys and honda ad at the bottom of this page, I’ll me sending them each a letter immediately.

That’s a great article. Finally someone has taken an army of dipshits as pig headed and ignorant as Bush and his cronies to task. Please people, it is amzing how a government is always spectacularly incompetent until it comes to the tried and tested conspiracy theory. To orchestrate a pan global conspiracy on this level would be some feat for a man who can barely chew a pretzel. And if he didn’t manage to pull it off, you conspiracy theorists should be giving Georgie Boy some props. This undoubtedly makes him the smartest, most Machiavellian and brilliant political genius America has ever seen. Just remember, Watergate had Deep Throat, and currently it’s this band of crazies who have no respect for the memory of 9/11 who suck.

“It’s virulently anti-semitic”

The shit-stirring shills are so obvious out here, it’s not even funny…

I just love it when people say that they don’t believe in conspiracy theories, but still believe that “19 guys with knives and a caveman defeated the worlds most powerful nation all by themselves.”

That is a conspiracy theory you fucking tin foil wearing Osama Bin Laden fox news conspiracy nuts! It is the most insane conspiracy theory of them all!

Tighten your tin foil hats, Osama might be tracking you from his high tech cave!!!

“every single journalist that helped them cover it up will be hanged for treason”

As well they should. This article is a complete and total disgrace.

BTW, “eddie”? I would invite you to do a little research, to see if you can find that “metropoli building code” that states a building has to fall straight down in the event of catastrophic failure. Go ahead, we’ll wait…

Here once again is the ’straw man’ argument. Bush is too dumb to perpetrate 9-11. Case closed. I agree in part. I think Bush’s handlers were the ones behind 9-11. One of those handlers is named Dick Cheney.

Transportation Secy Norm Mineta testified before the 9-11 Commission that he was with Dick Cheney in the White House Command Bunker on the morning of 9-11. (The Command Bunker is a shelter located underneath the White House.) Mineta testified that an officer was reporting to Cheney that a highjacked jet was approaching Washington air-space, and was at least 50 miles out. How is it possible that VP Cheney knew this jet was coming when nobody at the Pentagon, including Ronald Dumsfeld, knew this jet was coming in?

Both Norm Mineta and Richard Clark confirm that Cheney was in the Command Bunker before flight 77 hit the Pentagon at 9:38 AM. Yet the 9-11 Commission report says that Cheney wasn’t there until almost 10 o’clock, well after flight 77 had crashed.

It seems to me that the 9-11 Commission has attempted to conceal the fact that Dick Cheney was in the Command Bunker earlier and somehow knew this jet was coming. Why didn’t Dick Cheney warn anyone? Many lives at the Pentagon could have been saved.

Could the VP and some other people be guilty of treason? I think there needs to be an investigation.

hmm, I guess the blog is back to inserting random spaces. Big surprise…

ahh, Qui Bono.

larry Silverstein “PULL”

what about the courts in NJ for the insurance compaine way before 911?
ON they day it happened I kept on asking myself, why are they reporting all these explosions. and the biggests kicker of all was the 19 cave dwelling arabs. I jumped out of my chair and said no freaking way.
You have to do better than this rollingstone.
I knew they day it happened it was an inside job. Just took a little while for the war games that were going on that day to come out.
Humm they banker left the keys to the bank for the robber don’t ya think?

Just checking….hmmm…still seeing a bunch of “useful idiots” trying to spin history, again. Oh well, have fun.

You are an imbecile. They do not have to offer a cogent alternative theory. It is up to the official theory merchants to come up with evidence supporting their theory. Neither the physics or the logistics stands up to scrutiny.

Ooops. I notice mistake in my last post. 19 “cave-dwellers” actually living in U.S., taking flight classes. Sorry.

The burden of proof is on the Bush administration to prove that a bearded jihadi with a laptop in a cave in afghanistan, fueled by hatred of our values engineered 9-11… Reardless of the culprit, it was a conspiracy…

“The burden of proof is on the Bush administration to prove that a bearded jihadi with a laptop in a cave in afghanistan, fueled by hatred of our values engineered 9-11″

That’s a fact, jack!

fff

binky-boo “The burden of proof is on the Bush administration to prove that a bearded jihadi with a laptop in a cave in afghanistan, fueled by hatred of our values engineered 9-11″

Really? Bin Laden planned 9/11 from a cave with a laptop? You might want to do a bit more research there binky-boo.

“mocking the messengers” is all the American Reich Media has left…they sure don’t have any coherent facts on their side, as is demonstrated by their “hit piece” on “conspiracy theorists”

The biggest conspiracy of all is perpetrated by idiots who continue to insist that there are “no conspiracies”.

19 Arab guys with boxcutters? Gimme a break…if that’s not an idiotic conspiracy theory, I don’t know what is…

uh, learn to read there, tbot…the poster was confirming that the “burden of proof is on the bushies to prove their (ha ha) conspiracy theory”

I’m not just a genius, I’m an evil genius!

I wouldn’t have been afraid of no 5 guys with box-cutters. I woulda stopped em even though I probably woulda figgured they weren’t gonna kill themselves along with everyone on the plane. I’ve been in knife fights, every evil super-villain gets in knife fights. I’m not afraid of no razor blades when I’m completely unarmed. I’ll just bust some kung-fu out and be like. “Hiya! I don’t need no weapon to fight five of yous wit knives! I’m a super-villian byotch!”

Then I woulda done both the stewardesses.

Matt,
I’ve been arround the block a few times politically. I went to some of the big anti-war protests in the late 60’s, early seventies. Over the past few years it has become obvious to me and many other Americans that the official theory of what happened on 9/11 does not hold up.
I believe in science. If one believes in science it becomes apparent that the collapse of the WTC buildings 1,2 & 7 cannot have happened as put fort by the US government.
Matt, your over-the-top rantings do not change the laws of physics. Many “professional’ progressives are in denial about 9/11. it’s that simple.

get yer own screen name, loser…I had it first

There is lots of evidence for what we saw as it happened – namely no air defense! No air defense means it was an inside job. As we learned after, there were multiple war games taking place at exactly the same time that day, thereby making it impossible to distinguish the real from the fake, and removing our excellent air defense from New York and Washington skies. The wargames comprise the very heart of the black operation. On the morning of 9/11 itself, the FAA and NORAD were occupied in air defense drills simulating multiple airline hijackings. These drills included fake blips inserted onto their radar screens, as well as remotely controlled aircraft in the air posing as passenger jets. Thus the perpetrators of 9/11 (probably those overseeing the wargames) were able to incapacitate the US air defense system without having to order a stand-down, allowing the operation to succeed. Because of the wargames, NORAD personnel did not know where to send the fighter jets when the supposedly “real” hijackings took place (likely also being flown by remote control). They acknowledged this during the 9/11 Commission hearings, with no follow-up questioning.

There is absolutely no excuse for anyone who supports the peace and civil liberties movements to support the government’s Reichstag Fire lie. We know that the government must now be assumed to be lying until proven otherwise. The Bush administration acknowledges that it has dramatically increased the number of documents classified “confidential,” “secret” or “top secret.” Between the time Bush took office in 2001 and 2004, the most recent year for which figures are available, that number has nearly doubled. In 2004 alone, 80 federal agencies deemed 15.6 million documents off-limits. And that figure doesn’t include documents withheld by Vice President Dick Cheney, who refuses to report to the National Archives the number of documents his office classifies even though Bush’s executive order requires him to do so. Cheney claims his office is exempt. I want to know just what are they hiding? If there’s nothing to hide, why is the government hiding everything? 

I’m never givin’ this phat name up, dog. Not even if you came at me with a box-cutter. Even though I’m COMPLETELY UNARMED! I’m super brave like that.

“it’s just a guy in a cave with a lap-top!”

Or so you’ve been told…

Really, people, there’s a legal precedent now for the media to lie to you. Ask me nicely, and I’ll post it here

Mr. Taibbi,
Did Rolling Stone approach you with this story, or do you honestly embody the smut that printed? You’re stubbornly, dangerously naive. You’ve never looked into the history of false-flag operations? Have you read about the connections between the ISI, CIA and Atta? You state that the truth movement thinks “even the lowest-ranking FAA or NORAD officials are cold-blooded killers,” when in fact, war games taking place on 9/11 (What do you have to say about Vigilant Guardian and Tripod II?) were put in place to purposely insert confusing and crippling false radars to halt the US Military’s response enough to allow the attacks to happen. FAA and NORAD were just doing their jobs to the best of their ability, just taking orders from Dick Cheney via the Secret Service (did you know that the chaim of command shifted in June 2001 to give Cheney ultimate command?) You’re telling me that you honestly think that the United States has not suffered for the Partiot Act and its effects, a piece of legislation aimed at obliterating several Constitutional Amendments?

I’m disgusted with you and Jann Wenner for such cowardice. You could have used your influence and access to print something that would have made you a true patriot, a hero. Instead, you conform to the neocon agenda without doing any research or taking the time for any introspection.

Shame on you.

“There is an unseen hand behind all of this, and it is Jewish”

It is not “Jewish”. It is ZIONIST.

Big difference…

Ah yes, I read Matt’s article and knew I’d find Troofers flailing incoherently and denouncing Rolling Stone for being in bed with conspiracists. And what do you know, some of them are even blathering the same anti-Semitic crap that Holocaust denier Christopher Bollyn fabricated. Five dancing Israelis. Uh huh.

It’s really funny to watch Troofers splutter and fume when you don’t take them seriously.

Good job, Matt. These conspiracists are nothing but religious cultists who don’t want to admit it.

The hysterical ad hominem attacks on people who criticize the conspiracists only reinforces the notion that the 9/11 Inside Jobbers are incapable of dealing with facts and evidence in a competent fashion.

I thought the “conspiracists” were supposed to be the guys who did it? Oh yea, I remember now, 36% of the American public are now terrorists.

every wild-eyed democrat, republican, libertarian, conservative christian, vegan and wannabe neocon should read this and realize that no matter how right any of us all might individually be, in public we are all behaving exactly like these self-obsessed maniacs. the last two paragraphs nail it: those three morons are a mirror for the whole country.

I guess everyone has got their “Talking Points” faxed to them today.

An excerpt from the writer’s previous work. He’s apparently got the journalistic instincts of a cat toy. Facts, who needs facts? I got a feeling, and I think it’s pretty damn funny….

“Oh, Christ, not that, I thought. Like a lot of people in this country (and like most all of my colleagues in the journalism world), my instinctual reaction to the Ohio electoral-mess story has always been one of revulsion and irritation. Almost on principle I had refused even to look at any of the news stories surrounding the Ohio vote; there is a part of me that did not want to be associated with any sore-loser hysteria of the political margins, and in particular with this story, the great conspiratorial Snuffleupagus of the defeated left.

It had always seemed to me that I understood the psychology of the Ohio story without having to examine the facts involved. I thought the story appealed most directly to a group of people who were still reeling after 2000, an election which George W. Bush not only lost according to the popular vote, but plainly stole in the electoral college. The evidence for this theft has been there for everyone to see for five years now; few serious thinkers even dispute the matter anymore, just as few Democrats would even bother denying now that John Kennedy stole the 1960 election.”

This guy is just another poseur who sucked at the titty of NBC too long – through his Daddy’s connections.

When he talks about the stolen election of 2000 he has to immediately remind everyone of the parity of that scene with that of Jack Kennedy and Chicago, 1960.

NOT.

He’s not even serious. His tone is as though he’s discussing a night out on the town….”OH My, I didn’t want to be seen to be wearing those shoes.” He thinks opinions are related to style rather than truth.

Foul.

And please don’t remind us either that, if not the same folks, the same ilk of folks who stole the election 2000 and 2004, blew out Kennedy’s brains in broad daylight.

I know the Bushs have always envied the Kennedys. But they would never want to go too far to having everything the Kennedys had.

I don’t want to demean dirt but saying this guy is filth. I don’t want to elevate him by saying he is in error or mixed-up.

Maybe when he realizes what an idiot he’s made of himself he’ll just put a bag over his head and change his name so no one will know who he is when he goes out.

Leave it to Rolling Stone; did I miss it, or was there a reference to “tin foil?” There usually is in such a piece, especially from a publication that has probably been a cointel agent provocateur for decades. It’s so good for the regime, the pumping of Drugs and Sex and Rock and Roll! Sort of the anti-Mozart effect, laying the ground work for a piece like Matt Taibbi’s straw-man treatment of the 911Truth movement to slip effortlessly beneath the radar of the party-downed minds of its readers, most of whom no doubt find no end to the pleasure they take in chortling over a What-me-worry Commander in Chief, not realizing for a second he’s the ultimate patsy.

As for the actual event about which the article’s research is only deep enough to support a glib attempt at humor, indeed in consideration of what’s at stake, they got one item only. Those who take this seriously know it’s the key to the puzzle, for which the lack of a patent solution is the article’s only serious issue; never mind its avoidance of any questioning of the “official” conspiracy theory, the wildest of them all: bin Laden, the cave, the laptop, the 19 hijackers defeating with box cutters and a dozen hours in a flight simulator the $40-billion US defense system; moreover, a conspiracy presented by the regime whole cloth within 24 hours of the event…nothing suspicious about that, not to the insightful minds (or what’s left of them) at Rolling Stoned.

Seeker…I think 911 Blogger has been given access to the Whatreallyhappened links before, but I’ll shoot ‘em an email…

Notice that one of Taibi’s gripes with the Truth movement is that there is no one grand theory which tells the complete story. Unfortunately that requires speculation, which immediately gets you labelled a conspiracy theorist.

He demands that we have the answers, despite our not being privy to them. Yet he buys the official story hook line and sinker from a proven batch of liars.

So, if you stick to the facts and only what you can prove, then they have gripes with you – you can’t answer all their questions. But if you speculate on the entire event, you are a conspiracy theorist.

WHATEVER HELPS YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT, you coincidence theorist.

Being willfully ignorant WILL NOT protect you when the next attack comes.

Oh well, funny thing is, it is not up to us to prove what happened that day, only what didn’t happen:

And two planes DID NOT t knock down three towers that day, and thats a fact.

A handful of cave dwellers DID NOT outwit a trillion dollar defense system that day, and thats a fact.

“He demands that we have the answers”

He can “demand” all he wants. It’s obvious that the majority of the posters here think Taibbi is full of choice, USDA-approved, bovine excrement.

There are plenty of good, certified facts–facts that point squarely in the direction of the “official conspiracy theory of 9/11″ being an outright LIE–and they have been posted here. But, you’ll never see a Taibbi take them on point-by-point.

All cowards like him have are ad-hominem attacks, sophist bullshit, and pathetic talking points. It’s good to see that most posters here think he’s the nut-case in this equation…

Oh, and by the way:

Dear Rolling Stone:

Your intro to this blog article ends with your assertion that Matt Taibbi shows that 9/11 Truthers are “as divisive, accusatory and reductive as the mainstream media they seek to correct”

Taibbi shows no such thing. He merely stirs the pot of disinformation shit further, allowing for plenty of people to post links and documentation that shows just exactly how wrong he is.

That you allow him space to print his ad-hominem, sophist diatribe is your right, but you have just lost yourself a lot of readers over it.

May you sink completely into the irrelevance that you now appear to so richly deserve.

(signed and sent)

Question Authority
Question Authority
Question Authority
Question Authority
Question Authority
Question Authority
Question Authority

“There is an unseen hand behind all of this, and it is Jewish”

It is not “Jewish”. It is ZIONIST.

Big difference…
—————————-
A point perhaps well-taken, but I am not buying it anymore.

Which term should we use? Jewish or Zionist? If you take Dov Zakheim as an example, (the Rabbi who stole $2.6 Trillion from the Pentagon) he is a rabid Zionist. He is also a Jewish rabbi. Compare what is happening now to what happened to Germany in the 1930’s. Reichstag fire. 9/11. (Ashkenazi) Jews took over German Govt. positions, banking and industry, all over Germany. Fast forward to lat 20th Century America. Identical. The only difference so far, is Hitler stood up to the Jews (they subsequently declared war on Germany in 1933 – the REAL start of WWII). No one has stood up to these Zionists here in America. American sheeple cower to their Jewish overlords.

O well it isn’t so bad so far. Most of us have a pretty good life.

Except when they attack us and murder 3000 of our citizens. You could rationalize that too if you wanted. So far Israel has managed to get America to fight its war against Islam, beginning with Iraq. Americans have murdered over 100,000 Iraqis so far, and lost another 3000 of their own (plus 25,000 + wounded) for Israel.

Hell, if you really want to be cynical, most of those American dead and wounded are lower class whites, blacks and latinos anyway, so I guess ‘we haven’t lost much’.

That’s the way these people think. Get used to it. That’s reality.

This may be the most awesome thing I’ve ever read about the kooks, wack-jobs, looney-tunes, crackpots, and nutcases denying 911.

Best article ever.

“BUT I AM a HOLOCAUST DENIER!”

Well, fine–you may want to look for another blog to post to. This is about 9/11 truth, not the Holocaust.

Cheers!

“A point perhaps well-taken, but I am not buying it anymore.”

That’s your prerogative of course, but the minute you use the word “Jewish”, you open the door for disinfo specialists to kick the “religion” card right through it. Call it what it is. Plenty of PNAC is comprised of the “Christian fundie” crowd.

So please–this is not primarily about “religion”, despite what BushCo, Zionist, INC. would have you believe. Keep it simple.

“Does this look like a “failure” caused by the force of gravity?”

Nope. It looks like failure caused by controlled demolition.

Next question?

“That’s the way these people think”

Good for them. They’re as wrong as the Nazis were. Get used to it. It’s reality…

Your comments that the 9/11 truth theorists have to prove anything is actually wrong.

The US govenment has to prove its claims as to what happened.

Its not right to disrespect someone because they question how all of these amazing things happened.

The IRS has a process when they susect weird unusual occurances in someones income, its called an audit.

So why is it anyone who questions what happened on 9/11 and demands a full investigation is called disrespectful names.

What harm does it do to investigate what actually happened?

As an American citizen you have the right to ask questions and the government should serve and ultimately answer, you.

I don’t aggree with every singe thing that every “conspiracy theorist” thinks but I do find it hard to believe that TWO world class concrete and steel buildings collapsed after being on fire for a few hours.

I also think its interesting that no one talks about the 3rd world trade building that just mysteriously collasped and wasn’t even engulfed in flames.

If infact the US theory is true, anyone who has taken any advanced math or physics knows that it should be able to be proven.

Why not rebuild a scale model and test the structure under comparable stresses, all of which can be calculated and see what happens?

Why not ask for a detailed report on what happened to that 3rd building.

How does the 3rd building just collapse?

How come no one talks about that?

You guys still talking this shit..here’s a quote I particularly like…I know y’all will not share my enthusiasm, but never the less…read it and weep!

“”Experience proves that the man who obstructs a war in which his nation is engaged, no matter whether right or wrong, occupies no enviable place in life or history. Better for him, individually, to advocate ”war, pestilence, and famine,” than to act as obstructionist to a war already begun… The most favorable posthumous history the stay-at-home traitor can hope for is — oblivion.”"
~~Ulysses S. Grant’s personal memoirs (p.33)

“I also think its interesting that no one talks about the 3rd world trade building that just mysteriously collasped and wasn’t even engulfed in flames.”

Me too. I always thought that’s the building Flight 93 was supposed to hit.

Flight 93, of course, never made it to NYC.

WTC7 is your smoking gun, kids. Count on it…

“than to act as obstructionist to a war already begun”

Was US Grant talking about a legal war or an illegal one?

Do tell…

Thank you for that, Mr. Taibbi. Rolling Stone should be happy to know that I’ve just canceled my subscription to your magazine, as well as the one I had purchased my parents as a gift. It shouldn’t be too hard to explain to them why… I’ll just have to get them something else. Hopefully 36% of your American readership will do the same.

Denying the alternative theories relating to 9/11 is one thing – but writing a piece so blatantly offensive to those who have dedicated their lives to the cause is unforgivable.

The bottom line is that the official story is a blatant lie – this is a PROVABLE FACT that you neglected to address anywhere in your hit- piece. To demand the movement presents a complete theory on what happened is absurd. Proving that the Government story is not what happened, and coming up with complete and detailed description of what DID happen, are two entirely different things.

Did Dylan Avery or anyone else claim to know exactly what happened that morning? Clearly we don’t have enough information yet to make this claim. THAT IS WHY WE NEED AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION.

The Pentagon hit? – I mean we’re talking about the most secure building in the world, surrounded by the most controlled airspace in the world. The Pentagon itself has anti-aircraft missles on site. The official story is that AFTER 2 buildings had already been hit by aircraft, that another plane was flown for 30 mins. unchecked right towards Washington DC. Come on, folks. We should be smarter than this. It would never have happened unless it was allowed to. I see so many of you talking about researching the “facts.” Try using some logic. Your mind should tell you something is fishy. If you can’t reason that something isn’t right about the whole thing, you’re retarded. Period.

Re: The Pentagon hit: “It would never have happened unless it was allowed to.”

True, that. IMHO, this is the biggest red-herring, well-poisoning story of 9/11. A great diversion, if you will. A plane, piloted by a knucklehead who could barely fly straight in a puddle-jumper, does tactical jet manouevers in a 757, and just happens to hit the one side of the Pentagon that was recently reinforced.

Yeah, right. This provided a wide-open door for Shill Central to deploy retards who insist that “no plane hit the pentagon”, yet call themselves 9/11 Truth Seekers.

What a steaming pile of classic psyop CRAP. If a plane didn’t hit the Pentagon, then WHERE DID IT GO? It didn’t fly away again.

Concentrate on the believable. Talk about WTC7. NOBODY wants you to do that.

Because that’s your smoking gun.

The moonbats will believe any garbage at all that makes Bush look bad. It’s classical Bush Derangement Syndrome.
They are quite pathetic and should be treated with pity.

Its the Zionists – and loose change wont say that cuz its ‘uncool’..
but its true.

Israel and Israeli and jewish owned comapnies – thats who benefits.. and thats who has an interest in suppressing the facts.
All leads back to them

The disinfo artists don’t here don’t even know enough about us to fabricate a plausible: “It’s the Jews” post to make us look bad.

“loose change wont say that cuz its ‘uncool’”

Nah. Loose Change won’t say it because Loose Change is water-muddying disinfo bullshit.

Part of that 20-million dollar PR initiative, no doubt…

Ha ha ha the hilariously replies from the nutcase wack-jobs on this board speak for themselves. It’s called “critical thinking” people.

“the hilarious replies from the nutcase wack-jobs on this board speak for themselves”

You mean the ones who continue to insist that “19 Arabs with boxcutters” pulled this off?

Thanks to Mellio and the other posters telling the truth on this comment board.

My guess: Taibbi’s a mockingbird.

Google: CIA mockingbird.

An ex-CIA director once got caught bragging that the company owns everyone of consequence in the major media.

The point of things like Loose Change isn’t to offer proof. How can a 19-yr-old kid with no “credentials” and “access” offer proof? The point is to raise the questions, to see if there’s room for skepticism. And there is. Plenty of it. Spend less time knocking those seeking the truth and more time investigating it yourself.

1. Go to Google.

2. Type in: Operation Northwoods

3. Click on Google Search

4. Do some research

Wow , Taibbi is such a great writer.

Unbelievable.

Rolling Stone is so informative. What a great article.
Taibbi’s intellectual prowess is unparalleled in the field of journalism.
And I thought Rolling Stone was boring before but now I cant get enough.
The critical thinking skills he displays when picking apart anti government clones and their wild conspiracy fabrications is so awesome.
He masters the art of memorizing the official line so that he is able to combat the crazy questioners with the very same answers our political leaders can so skillfully present on a moments notice.
Regurgitation is so under-rated these days.
Attacking the messenger is so easy when the filmmakers dont even worship their leaders.
They walked right into this one. Facts are for sissys and Rolling Stone has made it clear that they wont stand for it.
I wish there were more writers like Taibbi so we could cancel all our useless subscriptions to popular magazines.
Bravo Taibbi, Bravo for you and others who so graciously leave the field of journalism wide open for children and adults of all ages.

It is ironic that while Matt Taibbi makes plain his dislike of Bush , he essentially parrots the President’s memorably officious statement “Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories…”

He states that “9/11 Truth is the lowest form of conspiracy theory, because it doesn’t offer an affirmative theory of the crime.”

Taibbi says he is “content” with presenting this single idiotic fallacy, though apparently not content enough as he indulges himself for several pages in a perfectly resentful, failed-novelist rant.

Let’s suppose Taibbi’s logic were that governing the system of criminal prosecution: Juries and defense would be obliged to accept the prosecutor’s case unless and until an “affirmative theory for the crime” is constructed. How delightfully Orwellian of Mr. Taibbi! For all of his posturing as a man of wit, he is remarkably sloppy-minded.

But I suppose it shouldn’t be remarkable, when one considers that his chosen profession, Corporate Hack Journalist, means a license to be sloppy, as long as you continue to be good attack dog and prevaricator, and of course, ooze enough disingenuous patriotism.

When Ames and Taibbi cowrote their jive for The Exile, the idea of conspiracy apparently didn’t get young Taibbi’s dander up:

“Most Americans laugh off the idea of themselves as burgeoning world dictators, and would dismiss Russian fears as paranoia. But what most Americans don’t realize is that the United States, through its prosecution of the NATO bombing and in its foreign policy in general, has given foreigners plenty of reasons to see conspiracy and military ambition behind everything we do.”

How sympathetic the young Taibbi was to the very justified, conspiracy-mindedness of Russians. Oh, but now he’s mad, mad, MAD, at his “fellow citizens” that have shown the audacity to question the “half-baked farce” in the words of Bill Manning.

You see, “most Americans don’t realize”, so we have the Great Taibbi to spell it out for us. “It may be that America has become too big and complicated for most people to deal with being part of. People are longing for a smaller, stupider reality.”

Or it may be that Taibbi’s instinctive self-righteous, condescending attitude is little different to that of the fratboy he parrots.

Awesome article, Matt. You know, I’ve noticed that 9-11 Deniers are like fundamentalists. You will never convince them, no matter how much evidence you have, and they will always accuse you of not looking at the evidence. When faced with an argument he cannot counter, a Denier, like any fundamentalist, will simply dismiss you as an agent of Satan (the government, or the MSM, or the conspiracy, or whatever). It’s the sissy’s way out of an argument they can’t win. If the opponent’s argument trumps yours, just invoke Satan and you don’t have to respond to it.

The difference between 9-11 Deniers and fundamentalists is that Deniers have no Hell to put us in, unless you call their atrocious Manichean worldview Hell, in which case they are more than willing to go and live there with us.

Every 9-11 Denier calls for a “new independent investigation”. Try asking a Denier what kind of investigation they think would be satisfactory. Should the government write a blank check to Steven Jones? Wouldn’t that make him part of the “conspiracy”? Wile E. Coyote didn’t know what to do when he finally caught up with the Roadrunner. I suspect the Deniers would be similarly flummoxed if their calls for a “new investigation” were taken seriously.

9-11 Denial is a club dedicated to making its members feel special. It will never accomplish anything constructive. Oh, and to some of the Deniers who have already commented: Thanks for proving an earlier poster’s point about the Holocaust Denial component in your circle-jerk movement!

The NYTimes ran an editorial yesterday which opined that “Congress passed a tyrannical law that will be ranked with the low points in American democracy, our generation’s version of the Alien and Sedition Acts.” The editorial board at the Times forgot to mention that Bush wouldn’t be in office and enabling torture if they had run the NSA wiretapping story they had before the last election. The NYTimes will never get a penny from me ever again. Now that Rolling Stone has showed us that it also subscribes to journalistic ethics for puppets, they’ll never see a penny from me either. I’d encourage the editorial staff at RS to take a good hard look at what’s happened to the NYTimes readership and advertising revenue since 9-11. You can find all kinds of excuses for their sorry financial state but the bottom line is they employed Judy Miller and they betrayed their readers by printing lies. Now let’s watch what happens to Rolling Stone.

Thankyou Mr Taibbi for saying what a great many people, not only in America but across the world, are thinking. I’m Irish, married to a Palestinian and living in Jordan, and I’m sick unto death, as are many others, of the obsessive,self-righteous, credulous and holier-than-thou 9/11 conspiracy theorists online and across the media, and of the way they’ve managed to make it all A Jewish-Masonic-Government Conspiracy; there are evil things done in the name of all faiths and ideologies, Israel’s establishment and continued apartheid state, and the carnage currently happening in Iraq, both by US/UK forces and Sunni-Shiaa death squads being amongst them, but many of us are trying to move forward from idiotic and cyclical religious/racial hatred to work practically, however we can, on creating a better world, not on keeping the cretinous old hatreds going. When a respected and credible source like Noam Chomsky, William Blum, John Pilger, Robert Fisk, etc. takes any of the 9/11 theories seriously, then I’ll start listening more closely, until then there are more immediately important things to worry about, many of them US/UK-sponsored/implemented, happening right now in the world – all the 9/11 conspiracy theorists prove to the rest of us, unfortunately, is that the old cliches about American gulliblity, self-importance and self-obsession have more than a grain of truth to them, on the far left as well as the far right (not saying we don’t have the same percentage of wiring-it-in-from-the-moon conspiracy theorists in Ireland – or in Jordan, I think the tinfoil hat brigade is global, just that, without VERY strong proof, they tend to more readily get the piss taken out of them sharpish).

Taibbi’s theory that Karl Rove is behind the 9/11 Truth movement is certainly intriguing.

I for one have rarely seen anything as disheartening as this Comments page, with a bunch of “liberals” calling for Taibbi’s head because he wrote a level-headed analysis. You people are out of your tree.

It should be unnecessary to add that I’m a socialist and as anti-war and anti-Bush as it gets. SHOULD be unnecessary, but unfortunately isn’t—as the hysterical blather about “Taibbi the corporate media stooge” makes clear.

It’s a dark day for radicalism. A dark, stupid day.

Taibbi wants “a detailed, complete summary” of the 9/11 plot and if we can’t do that, then we’re wacko.

That seems fair!!! … Of course the Commission didn’t offer that either.

Is he really implying that “we” believe Rumsfeld, Cheney and Moron sat around and doodled the plot on a napkin? … Is this the best he can do?

Taibbi: Here’s a challenge for you.

Forget all the “physical evidence” — throw all the shit about bombs and missles out the window.

Just concentrate on what the government has told us and what has been reported in mainstream places.

Try shredding David Ray Griffin’s deconstruction of the military’s response or any of the contradictions unearthed by Paul Thompson (”Complete 9/11 Timeline”).

I’ll be waiting.

Naturally, you’ll avoid *that* stuff like the Regime avoids democracy. You’ll stick to dismissing the silly stuff and acting like that’s the whole Movement.

Lame.

“Taibbi’s theory that Karl Rove is behind the 9/11 Truth movement is certainly intriguing.”

It’s certainly something, but “intriguing” is not the word that springs to mind, spunky…

To Taibbi and anyone who believes the official story:

Why has the US military offered 7 different accounts for its response on the morning of 9/11?

1. September 11-12 (nothing said)

2. September 13 (Richard Myers says under oath to the Senate that no planes were scrambled until after the pentagon was hit — 90 minutes after the first hijacking was known)

3. September 14 – CBS reports that planes were scrambled but arrived too late

4. September 18 – NORAD uses some of #3 to revise its own timeline

5. May 2003 – NORAD officials testimony to 9/11 Commission

6. Air War Over America — a book published by the military offers yet another version.

7. July 2004 – The 9/11 Commission creates a brand-new version of events in its Final Report — one that contradicts every single news story since September 11, 2001.

And whenever a new version of events is told, no one bothers to note or correct the old versions. They just tell the new version as if it’s been the only one we’ve been told since the beginning.

These radically different stories are all in numerous mainstream media sources and on video tape.

Why have we been told 7 different stories of what happened that morning? Can you explain it, Mr. Taibbi?

Redsock: “You’ll stick to dismissing the silly stuff and acting like that’s the whole Movement.”

When I hear stuff like this from Deniers, they are usually trying to distance themselves from claims such as the “no-planes” theory, which insists that thousands of WTC eyewitnesses were fooled by holograms into thinking they saw planes.

But notice that Taibbi doesn’t even address these claims. Redsock is actually conceding Taibbi’s point: If you look at the big picture, the conspiracist story is muddled, incoherent, and, yes, silly. Like all Deniers, Redsock would prefer that we focus on the minute details. Since few of us know much about thermite, for example, the typical Denier who is resourceful enough to copy and paste from Steven Jones can hope to befuddle a few people into not seeing the forest for the trees. Oh yeah, and their trees? Fakes, made from gum wrappers. Deniers know it is a lot easier to make up shit than it is to disprove shit, and they are a tireless shit factory.

Thanks, Matt, for calling our attention to the big picture.

“I’m Irish, married to a Palestinian and living in Jordan, and I’m sick unto death, as are many others, of the obsessive,self-righteous, credulous and holier-than-thou 9/11 conspiracy theorists online”

Putting aside the fact that you do not speak for “many others”, do you realize that your post is absolutely dripping with self-righteous credulty?

I doubt it, but thought I’d mention it anyway.

Cheers!

“Taibbi’s point: If you look at the big picture, the conspiracist story is muddled, incoherent, and, yes, silly”

Which one? Be more specific, please…

“Taibbi wants “a detailed, complete summary” of the 9/11 plot and if we can’t do that, then we’re wacko. That seems fair!!! … Of course the (9/11) Commission didn’t offer that either…”

You noticed that too, didn’t you?

Remember, kids–Taibbi can’t offer one either, because a lot of the evidence was carted away before he could actually look at it. So–how’s he going to put his money where his mouth is?

He’s not…

“The NYTimes ran an editorial yesterday which opined that “Congress passed a tyrannical law that will be ranked with the low points in American democracy, our generation’s version of the Alien and Sedition Acts.”

I think they call that “lip-service”…

I said, “Taibbi’s point: If you look at the big picture, the conspiracist story is muddled, incoherent, and, yes, silly.”

…to which Mellio replied, “Which one? Be more specific, please…”

Which what? Which conspiracist story? Could you be even more crystal-clear in proving my point?

Notice I said the Big Picture. Re-read Taibbi’s article before pretending you don’t know what I’m talking about.

Wonderful article, thanks.

The lunatics who buy into the conspiracy theories deserved the refreshing slap upside the head that you delivered.

They are truly delusional. And I say that in the kindest possible way.

Hopefully, some of them who haven’t yet totally lost the ability to think for themselves will recognize the deceitfulness and absurdity of the loosechangers and will recognize how they’ve been duped, and will regain their senses.

A certain percentage of them, of course, will never do so because they are immature, gullible, pathetic people who would rather die than think, and they have found a niche where even the most delusional of ideas will be entertained. And, of course, a certain percentage of them subscribe to the loosechange lunacy because they don’t have any friends in real life and this makes them feel like they are part of “something” no matter how pathetic that “something” may be.

Again, great article. It should help make some of the cult members see the light and get the hell out.

Mellio said: “If you look at the big picture, the conspiracist story is muddled, incoherent, and, yes, silly”

Which one? Be more specific, please… ”

All of the above. Muddled, incoherent and silly.

But any time you care to present a clear, coherent and rational account of who, what, where, when, and how, please do so.

“If you look at the big picture, the conspiracist story is muddled, incoherent, and, yes, silly”

“Which one? Be more specific, please… ”

“All of the above.”

Pick one and run with it. Go ahead, I have all night…

So, is anyone going to explain the 7 different versions of the military’s response?

…

This is what I mean. Put something on the table that comes straight from the Pentagon, NORAD, and other govt. officials that makes less than no sense, and people like Taibbi are nowhere to be found.

And the Taibbi’s of the world get really scarce when you start talking about WTC7.

As well they should. They lost that one a long time ago…

“If you look at the big picture, the conspiracist story is muddled, incoherent, and, yes, silly”

“Which one? Be more specific, please… ”

“All of the above.”

Pick one and run with it. Go ahead, I have all night…

Sure. Just as soon as you spell out a coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory and run with it. I have all night.

Just to make that last post clear since the formatting might lend some ambiguity as to who said what, let me add re-submit it as follows.

Article: “If you look at the big picture, the conspiracist story is muddled, incoherent, and, yes, silly”

Mellio: “Which one? Be more specific, please… ”

Me: “All of the above.”

Mellio: Pick one and run with it. Go ahead, I have all night…

Me: Sure. Just as soon as you spell out a coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory and run with it. In case you hadn’t noticed, (no surprise), that’s a prerequisite. But please provide your coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory and I’ll be pleased to respond.

Redsock,

You’ve been hanging out in the dungeon too long. Come up for air and reality some time.

Article Quote: “If you look at the big picture, the conspiracist story is muddled, incoherent, and, yes, silly”

Mellio: “Which one? Be more specific, please… ”

Me: “All of the above.”

Mellio: Pick one and run with it. Go ahead, I have all night…

Me: Sure. Just as soon as you spell out a coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory and run with it.

I have. Tell us everything you know about WTC7, as soon as you’re done reading the cited information I posted earlier today.

Go ahead. We’re waiting…

Redsock: “In my research, I don’t say anything about what really happened. That’s for fools. (Sadly, that’s what most of the Truthers do. It’s a huge waste of time and it sucks.)”

So, what you’re saying is that it’s not important what really happened? Why are you devoting so much time and energy to it, then? You’re not interested in an answer or a solution, you just want to call someone a liar or a dupe?

“I look at what we’ve been told and point out the myriad contradictions and ask questions. And I call for a real investigation because the official story has more holes than a swiss cheese factory.”

So, maybe you can give us a detailed description of what you think a real investigation would look like. Would it satisfy you to have any investigation at all as long as it came to conclusions you already agree with? Who would fund it? If not the government, who?

“If anyone thinks the official story (actually, there is no one official story, it’s in a constant state of revision from the government) is conherent, you are either lying or you haven’t studied it enough.”

Yeah, like the Denial movement doesn’t change its panoply of stories several times weekly!

I have studied conspiracist claims plenty, and more than I care to, believe me. Everything I have looked into turns out to be false; either an outright lie, or a misrepresentation of facts, such as the selective editing of eyewitness quotes. If I know Deniers have lied 100 times, and today they say, “Yeah, but look at this!”, I have better things to do. Your collective credibility is shot.

“And I don’t mean stuff like missles, holograms and pods and all that other silly bullshit.”

You don’t have to mean that. The reason this stuff exists within the 9-11 Denial movement is that it is all bullshit.

“I mean hard, factual reporting about the money trail for the plot, the backstory of the hijackers, the fact that two hijackers lived with an FBI anti-terrorism informant in San Diego for one year, the information told by Robert Wright, Sibel Edmonds, David Schippers, etc.”

OK, maybe your reporting is “hard”, whatever that may mean, but I seriously doubt that even 1% of it is “factual”, unless by accident. And no, I’m not going to check out any of the references you have cited above. Why search out a needle of truth in a haystack of lies?

“For some stange reason, when people dismiss the Truth Movement, they never mention these things. Never.”

Maybe because when we know something is bullshit, there is no need to wade through dozens of pages of footnotes to further prove it. Like I said, people like you won’t ever be convinced, anyway.

Mellio:

No you haven’t.

Give me your theory. A rational, coherent theory as to the alterntive events that you believe occurred on 9/11.

I’m waiting.

And don’t forget the evidence-based part, Mellio.

Matt,

You get paid to write stuff like this? How in the heck can you write about something you obviously know nothing about? Your article is littered with ignorance. The true conspiracy is “a cadre of Al Qaeda operatives conspired to hijack four jetliners, did so undetected and were able to complete their mission with no interception or even interference from the best-prepared air force on the face of the earth.”‘ The second part of this conspiracy is that “somehow they were able to attack the headquarters of the most heavily financed, advanced military in the history of the world on a day when the country had already been attacked twice”. If your so convinced of the official story, try and fly a plane or a helicopter in the airspace around the Pentagon and see what happens.

You like to make derogatory comments about people interested in the truth, but I don’t have to say anything. You believe in this sh*t. That’s says everything.

Wake up dude, your in the Matrix….

Grant: Yes, I have.

Would you like me to post it again, since you seem to be too busy to look for it?

Sorry, my position is well-stated out here. Find my cited information on WTC7, and rebut it.

With “evidence”, of course.

Mellio: Pick one and run with it. Go ahead, I have all night…

Note to Grant: If you have all night, take the floor, man! I don’t.

I have other things to do. Do not construe my future non-response to any Denier argument to mean I have given up. Mellio has been posting all day. I have a life. Thanks, Taibbi, for an enjoyable waste of time.

What happened, Mellio?

Here’s my original post:

Me: Sure. Just as soon as you spell out a coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory and run with it. In case you hadn’t noticed, (no surprise), that’s a prerequisite. But please provide your coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory and I’ll be pleased to respond.

So, where’s that coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory as to the events of 9/11 that I’ve been waiting for?

I know you said that YOU have all night, but I don’t.

Put up or shut up, as they say.

Yaktx: that was your pal, Mellio, who said he has all night, not me.

Reading comprehension is your friend. Try to introduce yourself to it.

It should be unnecessary to add that I’m a socialist and as anti-war and anti-Bush as it gets. SHOULD be unnecessary, but unfortunately isn’t—as the hysterical blather about “Taibbi the corporate media stooge” makes clear.

What does Taibi being a corporate shill have anything to do with you being a Socialist and Bush-hater, Vincent? You don’t have to read us your bona fides. Why don’t you just say, “Some of my best friends are hack jouranlists.” We won’t think you are prejudiced. If you want to preserve your juice as a “radical” I suggest you look closer at 9/11.

Grant: “What happened, Mellio?”

It appears you have a lack of reading ability, which is, of course, not my problem.

Grant: “I know you said that YOU have all night, but I don’t.”

Translation: Grant can’t rebut the WTC7 argument set out with cites, and his shift ends at 9, so he’s running away.

Ciao, baby. Come back when you’ve got something to offer besides a smart mouth…

Yaktx

I wouldn’t know about mellio posting all day as some of us actually have real lives and real jobs and work during the day.

Mellio,

If you have a coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory as to the events of 9/11, please provide it, as I’ve asked repeatedly now.

Don’t limit yourself to WTC7, by the way. Surely, you must have a coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory that covers all of the events of 9/11, not just the small portion of it that was WTC7.

You know, the hijackings, the towers, WTC7, the Pentagon, Shanksville, etc.

Please produce it.

Mellio,

Now, you’re just being silly. I haven’t gone anywhere and your reading comprehension skills seem to be as poor as those of your pal.

So far, you’ve given me nothing to rebut. I’m still waiting. It looks like you, on the other hand, are making stupid comments and avoiding the question.

So prove me wrong.

You claim to have a coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory as to the events of 9/11.

I have asked you repeatedly to produce same.

You still haven’t.

I will repeat my request yet again.

Please provide a coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory as to the events of 9/11.

Don’t limit yourself to WTC7, by the way. Surely, you must have a coherent, rational and evidence-based alternative theory that covers all of the events of 9/11, not just the small portion of it that was WTC7.

You know, the hijackings, the towers, WTC7, the Pentagon, Shanksville, etc.

Please produce it, and I will respond to each of the points that you bring forward, whether in agreement, disagreement, or otherwise.

So far, all you’ve done is avoid putting forward the evidence that you claim to have.

“Don’t limit yourself to WTC7″

Why not? You have yet to post a rebuttal of the cited WTC7 material posted earlier.

Until you’re willing to do that, you’re in no position to demand anything, snookums…

Your way off on this one Matt.

The real conspiracy is “a cadre of Al Qaeda operatives conspired to hijack four jetliners, did so undetected and were able to complete their mission with no interception or even interference from the best-prepared air force on the face of the earth.”‘ They also were able to attack the headquarters of the most advanced, heavily financed military in the history of the world on the same day the country had already been hit twice. Something doesn’t smell right with this.

Do you always write on things without doing any research? That’s a strange tactic to take, but now a days a lot journalists seem to be doing that. You seem to be among the people who are more comfortable thinking all of the odd things that happened on that day were just coincidences. To believe in the “official” conspiracy theory means you have to accept an awful lot of things as coincidences. Laws of physics bending on this one and only day must be attributable to some sort of strange surge in electro-magnetic energy that was running on this day. Put-options on the airlines is just somebody making a lucky guess. FEMA being in New York the night before is a major stroke of luck. The Pentagon’s defense & security systems not responding is just one of those things. The advanced warnings from foreign countries weren’t to be taken seriously. They’re foreigners after all, what do they know? The ignored notices from FBI field agents in Minneapolis & Arizona were probably due to poor communication between headquarters and the field offices. The moving of all sorts of war games to 9/11 was just a coincidence. Three buildings on the same day collapsing into their own footprints due to fire when this had never happened before in history is just one of those freaky coincidences. The fact that the three collapses resembled previous videos and photos of buildings that have collapsed due to controlled demolition and did not resemble any video or photos of any uncontrolled collapse that had ever happened before is a just a part of the current administration creating their own history. Wake up Matt….Your in the Matrix!

Mellio tried to squirm away from the facts with:

“Don’t limit yourself to WTC7″
Why not? You have yet to post a rebuttal of the cited WTC7 material posted earlier.
Until you’re willing to do that, you’re in no position to demand anything, snookums”

Excuse me? I still haven’t seen you provide any evidence of anything, despite having asked several times, but if you do not have a coherent and rational, evidence-based alternative theory for the events of 9/11, why are you pretending that you do?

And, “snookums”? What the hell is wrong with you?

Mellio,

It’s simple, really.

Either you have a coherent and rational, evidence-based alternative theory for the events of 9/11 or you don’t.

It looks like you don’t.

But I’m still waiting.

What do I think? I think the world’s most notorious spy agency, Israel’s “Mossad” helped facilitate the September 11th Attacks. They had the most to gain, and were easily able to work their terror with the help of the demonstrated rogue, Zionist elements embedded in the American government.

These people are are now blackmailing anyone who claims they’ll tell all with a good, solid anthraxing.

Or, y’know, one of those two-shots-to-the-head “suicides”

I favor the anthrax scenario. For, remember, the “anthrax perp” is still at large.

OK, Grant, let’s hear you prattle on about WTC7, and rebut the facts laid out.

When you’re done, please rebut the cited information about the Israelis busted in metro NYC on 9/11.

Go ahead, we’re waiting.

I won’t wait all night for you. You’ve got a lot of work ahead of you. When you’re done with your now-massive rebuttals, we’ll think about discussing other topics.

Ciao, Matt–errm, “Grant”…enjoy your “date”

“There is an unseen hand behind all of this, and it is Jewish.”

One more time: it’s ZIONIST. Please quit playing the “religion” card.

“Still no evidence”

Define “evidence”, big boy…

You need “evidence” to be defined for you, mellio?

Really?

That says a lot about your non-existent research skills. You sound like one of the moronic kids at the loose change forum now.

If you have any facts or evidence or even theories that you think support your position, please provide them.

I have asked several times now and you just say that you posted something earlier about one portion of the events.

I am not going to go trawling for it as it is obvious that you have so little faith in your position and your evidence that you have repeatedly avoided responding meaningfully for more than an hour now. If you have it, produce it.

If you have facts, evidence, and theories, please just cut and paste them here or email them to me. I’ve already told you how to reach me.

But, frankly, given your last few posts, you appear to be just a kid with a problem.

I have a new theory:

Mellio is a complete fucking shithead.

Mellio – what the hell is wrong with you? You haven’t provided anything to rebut, and you’re simply playing childish games. A reasonable person would be justified in thinking that’s because you have no facts or evidence to produce.

I’m still waiting for you to produce a coherent, rational, evidence-based alternative theory for the events of 9/11.

Until you do, there is nothing for me to rebut.

I’ve waited as long as I could for you to produce the evidence that you claim to have and you still haven’t done so.

I’m going out with friends now and won’t be back online tonight. I’ll check my inbox in the morning but I doubt that you’ll have provided any coherent, rational, evidence-based alternative theory for the events of 9/11 by then either. I’d love for you to prove me wrong on that, but again, I won’t hold my breath.

P.S. Loosen the tinfoil.

Two more things the OCTers sprint away from trying to explain (or deal with):

There were as many as 12 war games being staged on the morning of 9/11, some of which involved the simultaneous hijackings of passenger planes, both military and civilian airliners “impersonating” hijacked planes, and the crashing of a plane into a government building. For some of the military exercises, false “blips” meant to represent hijacked planes were placed onto FAA radar screens.

This is a critically important issue in understanding the response of the American military, yet no media outlet has yet reported on these exercises and the 9/11 Commission casually mentioned only one of them in passing in a footnote.

David Schippers (the House Judiciary Committee’s chief investigator in the Clinton impeachment trial) claims that several FBI agents knew the targets and date of the attacks as much as six weeks before 9/11. During August 2001, Schippers tried to interest anyone in Washington (including then-Attorney General John Ashcroft) in this information, but no one seemed to care.

More on the FBI informant:

Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi – two eventual hijackers the CIA knew had connections to the USS Cole bombing – had a very close relationship with Abdussattar Shaikh, a long-time undercover FBI informant who worked closely with the Bureau on terrorism cases. Alhazmi lived with Shaikh in San Diego for almost one year – and two other hijackers, Mohamed Atta and Hani Hanjour, may have also hung around Shaikh’s house.

In his book Intelligence Matters, Florida Senator Bob Graham, who co-chaired the Congressional Joint Inquiry into the attacks in late 2002, discloses how the FBI first failed to tell the Inquiry about Shaikh, then refused to allow him to testify (while insisting its internal investigation had determined his innocence), moved him to a secret location “for his own safety”, and apparently set him up with “a well-known former Justice Department attorney [who had] a strong relationship with the FBI”.

The 9/11 Commission’s Final Report refers to this FBI asset only once – as an anonymous “homeowner”.

***

These three issues may turn out to lead nowhere. But one needn’t be profoundly irrational to believe they should be addressed.

Perhaps you don’t agree.

Vincent.

“I have a new theory: Mellio is a complete fucking shithead.”

The evidence of that is clearly demonstrated in this very thread.

Gotta fly. I’ll come back tomorrow if Mellio emails me with his facts and evidence in accordance with the foregoing posts. But, as noted, I won’t hold my breath.

Have a great night.

redsock,

Nobody is impressed by cut and paste jobs from the dungeon at DU.

so… respectfully, put a red sock in it.

yaktx:
So, what you’re saying is that it’s not important what really happened?

***

You are being purposefully obtuse.

Of course it matters what happened, but I don’t go around showing people grainy video and telling them exactly what happened. Many truthers do this — and they do a diosservice to the community as a whole.

And why do you write as though the Truth Movement was one big group? It isn’t. It’s simply a catch-all term for a huge range of people doing different things and believing certain things. Think of it as you would the term “Americans”.

“Mellio is a complete fucking shithead.”

That’s right, you have nothing else but name-calling, now that you have proven you refuse to discuss demonstrated cites about the smoking gun called WTC 7.

So you just come back here tomorrow, and pretend you have a case. Of course, no one reading this blog should hold their breath waiting for you to post it.

grant:

you fucking moron.

what i posted was something I WROTE! i didn’t take it from anybody.

the dungeon at du? you mean paranoia central station. they are effin crazy there.

Yes, I agree. The 911 forum at the Democratic Undergound is a huge embarrassment. I love the site and post there regularly but the 911 forum is horribly embarrassing to us as Democrats.

I’m glad that the admins at least keep it from the front pages and prevent the conspiracy threads from being nominated for the greatest page but I really wish they would make it so that nobody could see it at all except members becuase it makes the rest of us look like freaks. We’re really not.

Trust me. Most of us wish that the forum was obliterated entirely.

Gratt: “You need “evidence” to be defined for you?”

I asked you to define “evidence”, period. Anyone still reading needs to be able to determine if you actually know how to define it.

We need to ensure you aren’t confusing “evidence” with “circular logic”…

red sock, do you have a theory about what happened on 911?

That seems to be what the rolling stone article is asking for and what some of the posters here are asking for and it dosn’t look like any of the conpsiracy believers have come up with any yet.

there absolutely is a bunch of silliness in the 9/11 forum (and anything the mods think is a conspiracy gets dumped there, so stuff on chemtrails and aliens are also floating around in there).

still, like with anything — books, music, movies — you have to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

and there are some people there that do great researcher: paul thompson, kevin fenton, jack Riddler to name three.

if 3 out of every 20 threads contain solid research and good discussion that stays on topic, you’re doing pretty well.

“do you have a theory about what happened on 911? That seems to be what the rolling stone article is asking for…”

Yes, there are plenty of theories here. Including Matt Taibbi, whose theory appears to agree with that of certain elements of the United States Government.

You had a point, yes….?

with all due respect, melio, i think it’s obvious that grant was asking you to provide the definition of evidence because you seemed not be able to define it and you still haven’t.

but why don’t you just post your theory as he asked instead of getting into a pissing contest?

if you’re right, your evidence will stand on it’s own.

it looks like your running away from him, instead.

melio,

yeah, the point was to ask you what your theory is.

you didn’t answer.

j.j. johnson
red sock, do you have a theory about what happened on 911?

That seems to be what the rolling stone article is asking for and what some of the posters here are asking for and it dosn’t look like any of the conpsiracy believers have come up with any yet.

——————–

no i don’t.

there’s plenty that doesn’t add up and plenty that seems suspicious, but to go and try to lay out “what happened” is silly.

i’d rather point out that, for example, cheney said A on September 12, and B on October 12, and C on october 14, and D on January 3 and ask “what is the truth?” rather than saying i know the truth.

it’s like when a teenager tells his parents five different answers for where he was last night — after the 5th story, mom and dad might think he’s not being honest.

there are some things that are obvious: there were scores of warnings that were ignored, the military did not do anything to stop the attacks until they were over, and the bush adminstration has done just about everything it can to hinder *any* type of investigation.

ok redsock, fair enough, there are 3 rational people there,

so what is your theory of what happened on 911?

oh i guess we were typing at the same time, sorry

so you have no theory.

i guess that makes it kind of moot, doesn’t it?

it’s not good enough to say – oh, i found an anomoly or oh, somthing doesn’t add up here.

without an alternate theory, it is meaningless

Watch the shills at work!

“Have you seen the little piggies, crawling in the dirt?”

“Peter | 9/29/2006, 9:27 pm EST” recapped something that was posted earlier in the day.

Peter knocked their ant-hill over.

Immediately, the busy worker ant shills tried to bury the article, except that this time they had nothing useful left to say, so they simply flung invectives.

ANYTHING, but let that comment (and the one which it copied) remain anywhere near the top where people could see it.

The original insightful comment was “the witness | 9/29/2006,
10:25 am EST”

Check it out.

ps. Mellio, you are correct, but I think that you missed the intent of the phrasing in the original content. Read the next line down. I think that the original poster is saying the same thing as your are.

“if you’re right, your evidence will stand on it’s own.”

“IF I’m right?”

In other words, you postulate that someone is “right”, and someone is “wrong”, yet you won’t cop to who you actually agree with and why, in any sort of specific way. Brilliant!

Hi Everyone. I’d just like to point out the fact that the Bush administration is completely incompetant. Radical lefties are used to percieving the government as sneaky, resourceful, and engrossing — and for good reason. During the 60s and 70s the government had numerous ingenious, underhanded, and illegal methods of suppressing dissent including murdering US Citizens. And While I don’t believe the administration has any moral scruples whatsoever, I do believe that are limited in their ability to conduct actions. Nowhere is this more evident that the war in Iraq. If the USA really had the supercrazy intelligence and war capabilities that the conspiracy theorists suggest, then we’d be winning in Iraq. Instead we’re getting whomped. So is it really that hard to believe that a passenger jet could have crashed into the Pentagon? No. The Pentagon concerns itself with defending against military attacks by foreign powers. That’s its specialty. The Military doesn’t do anti-terrorism (or at least it didn’t upto 2001). They just weren’t expecting the attack. It’s the same reason the USS Cole got bombed.

i have some general thoughts, but it doesn’t matter what i think. and if i typed some of it out, then the discussion would go that way, and we’d go in circles.

what matters is showing people know that there are 2-3 different official stories for almost every single apsect of 9/11 and trying to force an actual independent investigation, with proper subpoena power.

Incompetent?

No freaking way.

NOW I’ll quote someone else from DU, Jack Riddler, who put it better than I could (all of the following is his):

Those who call the Bush mob “incompetent” make a fatal error. On some unconscious level, they seem to think that these criminals somehow share any of the goals of decent human beings, and have therefore “failed” to produce good results. But that, of course is the idea that motivates the Bush crime family: to produce results (evil or otherwise) that happen to enrich their own class.

The situation in Iraq for example is not the result of “incompetence.” It is all according to plan, which was to destroy that nation.

Over and over we see the awesome competence of the Bush regime in accomplishing their radical plans – at almost every stage very much thanks to the enablers who run the Democratic Party, and who have smoothed the way for the Bush mob in each of their following accomplishments:

Stealing Election 2000.
Trillion dollar giveaway to the rich, intentionally plunging the country into deficit.
9/11. Exactly as desired.
Stealing a sum specified as “2.3 trillion dollars” from Pentagon assets.
Repealing the Bill of Rights in the USA PATRIOT Act.
Getting dozens of other countries to pass their own PATRIOT acts.
Invading Afghanistan. Exactly as planned, years in advance.
Funnelling trillions more legally into the Pentagon.
Establishing a Homeland Gestapo.
Instituting Rule by Fear, color-coded no less.
Railroading the idiot Congress into approving the war in Iraq.
Accepting the assassination of Wellstone by whatever lower-level operative delivered it.
Stealing Election 2002.
Establishing “Total Information Awareness” and getting away with it, even after departure of Poindexter.
Invading Iraq. Killing untold thousands.
Getting the Iraqis into a civil war, with the intent of making sure that country never recovers.
Covering up 9/11.
Using 9/11 as an election device and excuse for everything.
Stealing Election 2004.
Using Katrina as the opportunity to empty out New Orleans and test out long-standing “civil disturbance” doctrines.
Pushing through two right-wing Supreme Court appointments without a filibuster.
Rewiring Americans overnight to believe Iran is now the enemy.

Wow! What a list! A veritable juggernaut of competence.

The Bush mob (almost) always get what they want, and the Democratic “leadership” (almost) always helps them when it counts. Yes, they had to take a loss on the first attempt to steal the entire Social Security fund, but there are many opportunities yet to come.

Yes, it’s all at a time of awesome crisis to US-based capitalism, so much of it looks jerry-rigged but so what? It’s not like the Bush mob invented the crisis of capitalism. So far, they’re getting away with a particular plan to thrive in that crisis, by plundering everything, whether nailed down or not.

Competent at what they do, which is what they’ve always done: pillage and plunder.

” I think that you missed the intent of the phrasing in the original content. Read the next line down”

I can appreciate that, but if you make it about–even say the word–(Insert Religious Orientation Here), the issue is clouded.

It’s not about “religion”. It’s about “imperialist government” that happens to hide their theivery, plunder, treason and warmongering under a cloak of “piety”.

“Watch the shills at work!
… Peter | 9/29/2006, 9:27 pm EST” recapped something that was posted earlier in the day.
Peter knocked their ant-hill over.
Immediately, the busy worker ant shills tried to bury the article, except that this time they had nothing useful left to say, so they simply flung invectives.
ANYTHING, but let that comment (and the one which it copied) remain anywhere near the top where people could see it.
The original insightful comment was “the witness | 9/29/2006,
10:25 am EST”
Check it out.
ps. Mellio, you are correct, but I think that you missed the intent of the phrasing in the original content. Read the next line down. I think that the original poster is saying the same thing as your are.”

Hoo boy.

The Manson Family chimes in.

So, have any of the conspiracy theory people come up with any realitic alternative theories yet or are they still just sucking Alex Jones dick?

That’s a very well written article. Thanks for putting the lunatics in their place. The way they mock the victims and their families disgusts me.

Thank you.

That is a very good piece, yes. The way the crazies behaved at ground zero on the 5th anniversay was absolutely disgusting, and New Yorkers sure noticed. Whatever support they might have had before that was lost that day. They were obnoxious and rude and their lack of respect turned us off, I can tell you that.

I don’t know who was running their show but they misjudged New Yorkers badly. Very badly.

redsock,

Do you realize the list you cite ostensibly proving the Bush competance is rife with exactly the sort of unfounded accusations I was skeptical of in the first place? Why don’t you read your own list. Also take note of items such as “Invading Afghanistan. Exactly as planned, years in advance.” No, dude, Afghanistan isn’t going as planned. Afghanistan is falling apart at the seams. The only reason it isn’t getting any press coverage is because Iraq is disintegrated even faster. Yeah, Bush is good at winning elections, managing public opinion, and fear-mongering. The Bush Administration is good at politics. But when it comes to acts of governing, it can’t do jack. And it’s not even an issue of considering their greedy priorities. Even within their own calculus they fail to achieve their agenda: Do you think that the Bush administration wants to lose in Iraq? Do you think they want Iran to get nuclear weapons? Obviously not. But that’s what’s going to happen because Bush’s team is completely inept.

I totally agree with your article.
I am currently in first year of university and everyone in residence thinks that the loose change video is total garbage. Some kids here have younger brothers and sisteres who believed it at first but they were just kids of 13 or 14 and obviously easily influenced, but now the younger kids have been set straight too.

I’m glad that we could do something as a group to prevent the brainwashing and cult mentality that the conspiracy theory people try to inflict on kids. It’s freaky how they draw kids into their culty groups. These people shouldn’t be allowed to post on the internet, they’re as bad as pedophiles, with a different purpose but they do just as much damage becaue they screw with kids minds and ruin their lives unless someone gets them out of the conspiracy cult soon enough.

redsock

It is meaningless to post quotes from more conspiracy theorists from the DU dungeon.

Just provide answere to the questions asked in the article, and your case will be made. The world will salute you. You will be a hero among heroes.

Please provide a detailed and complete summary of what happened that day. Doing so will make you instantly famous and instantly wealthy, by the way.

So what are you waiting for?

Cherry picking points that make good hyperbole and ignoring the issues that she doesn’t find convenient, and then acting all innocent about the fact that she has unabashedly taken the role of a Bush attack dog. Please, cut the pseudo-erudite rhetoric and condescending sophistry and let’s get down to the basics. This woman is trying to make herself in to the best friend Bush ever had. What does she want? A job in the White House press department?

Nice story Mr. Gannon. 4 pages long and you didn’t examine the lies told by our government or the things that happened on 9/11 that are against the laws of physics without explosives. You just tried to make anyone who believes in a 9/11 conspiracy executed by our own government look crazy. Even though there are millions of us. That’s why Bush is spying on everyone without warrants, holding people without charges or trials and now torturing people. He knows the public is waking up and he’s scared. Have you noticed the world is running out of oil and we are attacking the oil countries? Oil is only down now because of the election. Global population is rising and oil supply is declining. We will have a huge problem soon. That is part of your reason for 9/11. Greed is another. And by the way, it is pretty obvious there was a conspiracy to kill JFK. Even though I cant draw up the entire plan and reason for it myself I know there was a coverup by our government.The Warren Commission report was full of lies and a lot of witnesses ended up dead. So your argument that someone cant explain every detail to you is ridiculous. The government’s story of the events of 9/11 contains many, many lies and has been changed several times. You are a disgrace and a traitor.

So. . . back to basics.

1. 9/11 happened.

2. Major questions arise from every single element surrounding the event.

3. The media ignores or tries to debunk any aim to get to the truth.

4. The 9/11 Truth movement gains worldwide momentum.

5. We enter a new world age.

Fact: We are midway through number 4 with no turning back.

The problem is the “one size fits all” analysis.

I would ask Mr. Taibbi to read Kristen Breitweiser’s book and watch the documentary 9/11: Press for Truth.

Taibbi paints with a broad brush which does an injustice to people who have legitimate questions that have not been answered by the very government that has exploited the 9/11 attacks for political gain over and over and over.

Somewhere in his hyperbole and raving, Matt raises a serious issue with the 9-11 Truth movement. There is an overall lack of coherence in the many theories being expounded. There are many unanswered questons with many possible explanations but taken as a whole what 9-11 Truth is presenting is intrigueing and compelling but also diffuse, fractured and implausible as a story.

The 9-11 Truth people really need to sit down and reconcile all of the disparate theories and ideas about what happened or their movement will drift around in a sea of tantalizing speculation for decades and Matt will prove to be justified in asserting that they are “clinically insane”.

“Pride will be the downfall of this country. Everything is turning into rediculous rants and actions fueled solely by their anger and nothing is getting done. It may not be physical yet, but this country is in a civil war, and it’s prideful beligerance (sp?) and intolerance that is keeping it going. The refusal to listen and cooperate (on BOTH sides) is what is ruining the government and it’s country.”

Amen, my friend.

Bored websurfers, american of every creed, state and city: Please, let’s put the exclamation marks down and talk this out like upright citizens, ladies and gentemen with things to say. I know, its upsetting out there. But watch Martin Luther King or Bill Clitnon or even W himself speak. In the end your ideas will be a lot louder than all the ~’s !!!’s and slurs you can type.

Taibbi misses the point. It’s not up to the skeptics to provide an alternative to the Official Conspiracy Theory. The skeptics need only prove the OCT is a lie. That has been proved.

Conversely, one could ask Taibbi to defend 100% of the claims in the 9/11 Commission Report, and call him a lunatic if he cannot. I guarantee you he cannot.

One question: Can anybody list 5 pieces of evidence that indicate that the 19 individuals claimed to have been the hijackers actually did this? thank you

Anonymous,
I find myself somewhat concerned by your theories of a Jewish Conspiracy. I had heard about the Mossad agents and there are some aspects of what you say that make some sense, but other aspects smack of racism. Anyone thinking of subscribing to this version of events needs to keep the following points in mind:

1) There is no Jewish psychic link that would automatically enroll ALL Jewish people in a global conspiracy. It is ridiculous to say that anyone who is Jewish is automatically part of the conspiracy or the cover up.

2) Though Israel may be involved in the 9/11 events, there is NO WAY that Israel could have perpetrated this thing without assistance from high-level US Government players.

3) Being against Israeli government policy does not give logical license to blame individual Jews for that policy. This is a fallacy in logic. You cannot take the actions of a few and blame them on all individuals in the group. Just as you cannot blame all Muslims for the actions of a few extremists, or blame all Americans for the actions of the current US administration.

Be careful my anonymous friend for you tread on dangerous ground. I don’t claim to know what happened on 9/11 and anyone who thinks they have the full story this soon is probably deluding themselves. I find that this kind of retoric (no matter how compelling) turns off the majority of Americans who are a people who don’t take racism lightly.

sdf

Conspiracy theorists are masturbators. When there’s writing on the wall on they analyze the ink.

Are the motivations behind 9/11 as simple as the “good/bad” binary Bush and Co. make them out to be. No. Does that mean Bush and Co. flawlessly orchestrated 9/11 and subsequently botched the Iraq Attack, very obviously and unpopularly sodomized Constitutional rights, and left New Orleans as a pool? You give them too much credit.

Also, to whoever believes the “Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy Theory”: dude, all that supposed “research,” and all you got’s a fistfull of you own jizz. Put that mind to use and write fiction or something.

re: Karl S9/11T –

Good analysis, and history lesson. There are some things there I never heard before, like Ted Kennedy never even being in the car at Chappaquidick.

That’s what’s great about the internet — people can do their research and share with others, so we’re not all in the dark ages anymore.

Couple things –
Rothschild, Rockefeller and the Jewish bankers control the world. Indeed they started WWI and WWII, and they are behind everything basically that happened in the last century. You name the event — they were behind it. All the wars, the Great Depression (the Jewish bankers caused this to happen on purpose), the Cold War, Vietnam. Even the fake moon landing (I wonder when that will be exposed?).

I read an article that Hitler was illegitimate child of Rothschild, and his mother was Jewish, which of course makes Hitler Jewish. Also, Clinton — who was his father anyhow? Rockefellers own Arkansas (they should call it the State of Rockefeller). I read some credible reports about Clinton being a Rockefeller illegitimate child.

A couple other points — you mentioned Reagan was ‘warned’ when he was shot. That seems plausible. My own belief is they just didn’t succeed. Bush taking over in much the same way as LBJ taking over after JFK. It apparently didn’t matter, as the Reagan presidency was basically a Bush presidency. Reagan was a position-holder while Bush (and his handlers) clearly ran the show. Not that Bush is even in charge. I don’t think any President is ever in charge.

right lets cut through this crap shall we?

i live in england, ive never been to america. i am not anti semitic, in fact i know nothing about jews, all religions baffle me.

im just an intelligent person with a degree in mathematical physics who looks at the “collapses” of those towers and knows that they were deliberately demolished.

the people posting anti semitic remarks here are doing so deliberately to smear the 911 truth movement.

I am English too. I am not interested in your pathetic political parties, I am interested in the truth.
This article totally misses the point. The official story is a “conspiracy theory”, and if there are facts that don’t fit, then that theory falls.
“Loose Change” doesn’t explain “how they did it” it is explaining the huge problems with the official story.
Sadly, the only viable alternative to the official story is that high officials were involved in deceiving you.
I used to buy this paper in the 70s when I was young and you were exposing Nixon. You were good in those days, what on earth happened to you?
You are going to look some fool when the truth does get exposed.

A lot of the top-level US officials ARE Israeli to begin with. Beginning with Michael Chertoff (double citizenship: US and Israel), and this is the man in charge of your national security. Hmmmm, interesting…

Anonymous,
Look, I don’t have all the answers. I’m just saying that in this society using inflamitory retoric (that can be construed as racist) does not help you in your aim. I can’t tell you how many 9/11 conspiracy sites that I have abandoned once they start the worldwide Zionist conspiracy shit. Now, I’m not going to say that you are wrong. Like I said, I don’t know. I do know that I don’t want to start my mind down that road because I don’t like where it leads. Please allow me to reserve judgement on this shit. Thank you.

Jewish Zionists committed the 9/11 crimes. Period.

Larry Silverstein.
Dov Zakheim.
Kobi Alexander (now in jail on other charges related to 9/11 stock options fraud).
Rupert Murdoch.
Benjamin Netanyahu.
Dick Cheney.
Michael Chertoff.
Mossad.

This is a classic example of what I was talking about in one of my earlier posts. Using the term ‘anti-semite’ to slur anyone who exposes crimes committed by Jews or Zionists. Forget the fact that the criminals who actually were behind the 9/11 attacks were Jewish Zionists (not Arabs), they need to keep us all looking the other direction and slurring people as ‘anti-Semite’ is one effective means of doing just that.

Paul’s post is from a dis-info agent, not a real poster. (Remember, shills are all over these boards). Classic hit-and-run disinformation. Smear the opponent / attack the messenger. Pretend you are someone you are not which is easy in anonymous forums such as this one online.
——————— ——
Paul said:
right lets cut through this crap shall we?

i live in england, ive never been to america. i am not anti semitic, in fact i know nothing about jews, all religions baffle me.

im just an intelligent person with a degree in mathematical physics who looks at the “collapses” of those towers and knows that they were deliberately demolished.

the people posting anti semitic remarks here are doing so deliberately to smear the 911 truth movement.

Boy, is this guy a butt-fucking idiot. how naive and pompous can you get.

I’m never reading this moronic magazine again.

“Tinfoilhat doesn’t want to “go down that road””
Look, Amigo. I admitted that you might be right. And if you think I’m blaming the Arabs, you should take a look at my earlier posts. All I’m saying is that the 9/11 Truth Movement is not doing their cause any favors by employing this kind of rhetoric. If you want Americans to dismiss your discourse because they assume you have another axe to grind, go ahead. But I can tell you now, you won’t get very far with this.

wow, that anon post is reminiscent of the the propaganda I read in the arab forums, even the switching names to support their own position and sending you to propaganda sites. BTW don’t go to those links unless you are really protected, they usually try to drop a trojan or some other malicious software on you. Use PSExec from sys internals to launch IE to protect yourself in any case.

Jed, I think you’re right (anonymous is anon is peter) I guess I am stupid as shit! At least I wasn’t stupid enough to click on any of the links. By the way (whoever you are): my motivation as a stupid American is to get an investigation started on this thing to (hopefully) uncover the truth. Don’t assume that I don’t know how much influence Israel and their lobbies have in our system. Assuming that your intentions were similar to mine was my mistake. I have no desire to be frothed up into a racist fury either by you or against you by the right-wing fascists on this site. Us stupid American liberals have enough weenies on our BBQ grill as it is, thank you.

A lot of sensible arguments in Matt’s column, but as is true of other conspiracy-deniers, he fails to explain some things that make the LACK of a conspiracy too hard to believe: (1) how to explain all those completed cell phone calls from the planes, when cell phones rarely if ever work from that height; (2) how it can be believed that a novice pilot successfully completed a maneuver in striking the Pentagon that would be very difficult for an extremely seasoned pilot (circling the Pentagon very low to the ground without crashing before hitting the building); (3) why the Pentagon’s surface-to-air defenses did not take the plane out, the Pentagon being an extraordinarily defended building; (4) the utterly nonsensical “fact” that a hijacker’s passport was found intact in the rubble of skyscrapers turned to dust.

I think the answer is that someone with massive power in the admin (think Cheney), being tipped off, as we now know Tenet was, that “the big one” was in the works, and possibly knowing the date (as apparently some in the stock market did), did not plan the event, but helped ensure its success. Junior’s presidency was already seriously tanking, and the neocons had big, big plans for his administration.

It’s fine to debunk clear problems with 9/11 conspiracies, but if you’re going to do that, you have to be able to explain the impossible problems with the “real” story. Because if it wasn’t technically a conspiracy, and the “real” story couldn’t have happened, either, that has to be confronted.

To The Editors:

You’re fighting blather with blather.

Check this link out for a pretty sober POV:

Matt Taibbi needs a rationale for a 9/11 conspiracy. Reichstag fire ring a bell?

To The Editors (again):

I posted a link to an educated opinion by an expert witness, but I see you don’t copy web links, so check this guy out:

Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed is the author of several books on 9/11 and the London bombings. He teaches courses in International Relations at the School of Social Sciences and Cultural Studies, University of Sussex, Brighton, where he is doing his PhD studying imperialism and genocide. Since 9/11, he has authored three other books revealing the realpolitik behind the rhetoric of the “War on Terror”. In summer 2005, he testified as an expert witness in US Congress about his research on international terrorism.

Linda:

The conspiracy nuts are off their rockers. Many of the calls were made when the planes were flying quite low and Bush’s popularity was not tanking in the late summer of 2001.

Besides, this whole “theory” is nothing but ridiculous nonsense. I’m not a supporter of what the US did in response to the attacks (especially regarding Iraq) but it was Islamic militants who carried out the attacks.

Mr. Taibbi,
So, you really believe the “Official Story”? Were you there? Well, I was. As a volunteer working in a medical capacity at he “pile” I observed several things that puts your argument in the trash. What I saw was direct evidence of controlled demolition. This was, in fact, pointed out to me by an iron-worker with experience in demolition of large structures. He pointed out steel columns, 36 x 18 inches in diameter,glowing yellow, dripping molten iron. Their ends cleanly-cut at sharp angles. He told me that is how “cutter charges” leave their unmistakable mark. This, he informed me, does not result from burning kerosene, or even if paper products from offices are thrown in. I, along with hundreds of fellow firemen, iron workers, and other search & recovery volunteers, considered that the complete and utter destruction of three major office towers by jet fuel– burning for less than 10 minutes– is highly implausibe. Have you read the “9-11 Commission Report”? Why didn’t they mention WTC 7 and it’s collapse?
Four commercial airliners make U-turns in the sky, including the FAA watching one head towards Washington, D.C., for over one-half hour, and not one is intercepted (SOP)!
Where was the military? Oh, yes. One couldn’t make cell phone calls, even from several thousand feet, moving at 500 mph. Have you had any success making a cell-phone call from an airliner moving at over 500 mph? Are your calls recorded as well?

I understand your impatience with people who accuse members of this government of commplicity. But the questions asked about the events of 9/11 are compelling. All one has to do is look at the footage of the WTC’s demise, and read the scientific papers written that describe what happened. Unless you have math and physics phobias, these papers do a thorough job explaining how the “Official Story” just doesn’t work. You can fool a five-year-old into believing that what happened was caused by 19 characters, but most adults that I have spoken to–with a modicum of critical thinking–agree that it looks as if there was, at minimum, some help from “insiders,” in executing those events. From what we all know about this gang in this administration and the Orwellian “reality” they attempt to create, only the very naive still believe what this government tells us. Yet, you apparently believe still believe them. Then I am afraid that your credibility as a journalist (or shall I say stenographer) is gone. I think that one day you will eat your words.
Oh, by the way, I used to be a Bush supporter– until I connected the dots.

It is a truly sad comment on the state of science education in the American educational system, that so many people are gullible enough to fall for the 9/11 conspiracy hoaxes.

Anyone with a smattering of basic engineering, materials science and logic can see through the holes in the conspiracy nutter logic.

Good Job, Matt for pointing out the patently absurd.

It is a truly sad comment on the state of science..

What’s truly sad IS the state of science in our world today. Can you really look at the film footage of the WTC towers and WTC7 and say that this makes ANY scientific sense? Those buildings were demolished by something other than airplanes. Sky scrapers are made to withstand this kind of abuse. Mr. Normal, like all the other Normal People in this country, you are not basing your opinion on science at all. Your opinion comes from exactly the opposite place. Your misplaced belief in our system and your willingness to believe what you saw on 9/11 without a shred of scrutiny. Muslims cannot change the laws of Physics my friend. Take another look.

The Hopeless Stupidity of 9/11 Conspiracy “Theories”

Add to that! Hopeless stupidity of some of the comments!

Great article, and it does more than poke fun at Bush! Shows how foolish the CT world of dolts is.

It is great to see real political talk. Not misleading CT crap!

I just have to say, Mr. Taibbi, lets leave the Loch Ness monster out of this. I put more faith in the most oddball folklore than any conspiracy-theory of any stripe for one simple reason a few posters are missing. GOVERNMENTS ARE NOT THAT SMART AND ARE NOT THAT ORGANIZED.

Anyone can create chaos and blow things up with a little homework–but anything more nefarious inevitably fails. Yes, terrorists killed some friends and neighbors but why give them (or anyone) so much friggin’ credit? Automobiles kill 49,000 Americans a year–you don’t see “Orange Alert”s over the danger of an SUV running me over.

A ROLLCALL ON STUPIDITY:

A: Terrorists: inevitably not that smart because their short-sighted logic isn’t going to get rid of the Great Satan–only annoy it like a buzzing mosquito. They’re just poorly educated enough and crazed enough and hygenically-lacking enough to think that crashing airplanes is an intellectually defensible stunt.

B: Right Wing ‘National Security’ Voters: Stupid because, quite often, they’re from the midwest or below the mason-dixon and have no connection whatsoever to this “War on Terror”. While the Right uses 9/11 as a political banner 90% of NYC voters voted AGAINST Bush. Nuff’ said. Stop trying to get a contact-high on our grief. Stop it. Please.

C: That “The Zionists Did It” Guy and Everyone like you: you’re an idiot. You should get out more–let some fresh air oxygenate your brain maybe. Try meeting people outside your propoganda-cluttered basement. Israel made a mess of the ‘Lebanon Crisis’–how would they pull off 9/11? Their govt. is as dumb as you are. Germany’s had 60 years to rethink the Nazi thing–what the hell’s your excuse?

D: Conspiracy theorists in general: stupid because, again, they give too much credit to equally stupid individiuals.

E: Bush & Friends: If this needs explaining then you need to start reading something other than these blogs.

Tin Foil Hat, you, like the rest of your deluded brethren, don’t even begin to understand the laws of science.

Is there a single strucutral engineer that supports your theory?

Tin foil,

you commented
“It is a truly sad comment on the state of science.”

This is typical of the CT nuts. If science doesn’t support your theory, then science must be wrong.

to: the magazine formally known as rolling stone

matt taibbi’s article is an unqualified attack on the 9/11 truth movement.
The publication that was known as ‘rolling stone’ would have approached this debate intelligently.
it would have realised that this is a major issue that needs serious attention and scrutiny, (which is known as journalism).
‘Rolling stone’ was one of the few magazine’s that asked important questions about serious issues, with an open mind.
Matt taibbi is not bringing anything to the debate aside from slander, posturing and ZERO evidence.
In reference to the makers of loose change, they are simply presenting the evidence,so, don’t shoot the messenger.

ask jack

Oh, hell, just google loose change viewers guide

In an early comment, “David” stated:

“Matt, when you can explain to me how concrete gets PULVERIZED turning into a pyroclastic flow leaving behind a pool of molten steel for 6 weeks without explosives then I will belive your opinion and even subscribe. Until then I am going with logic and science. Its a law of nature and cannot be broken, ie.. you can’t get those two things to happen without EXTREME force and a building falling on itself is not enough. “

I would like to point out that the dust cloud was not just concrete dust, but it also consisted of a large amount of drywall, fireproofing, ceiling tiles, fiberglass, and other frangible components of any large, modern office building.

Secondly, there is no evidence whatsoever that all of the concrete was “pulverized.”

Thirdly, the concrete floor slabs were only 4 inches thick and made up of light weight aggregate. Of course it will break up in the collapse. Heck, if you were to drop one of those slabs only a few feet, it would break up into a bunch of little pieces.

This is a function of the basic engineering properties of materials.

As for the “pool of molten steel.” claim, as far as I know, that claim has never been substantiated. How do you know it wasn’t a pool of molten aluminum?
How do you know that the metal did not melt in the intense fires which burned in the rubble pile for weeks after the collapse?

You state: you can’t get those two things to happen without EXTREME force and a building falling on itself is not enough.” Do you have any data or calculations to back that up? What was the gravitational potential energy of the buildings? How do you know that that energy was not enough?

Spellcheck wrote in the beginning of these comments:

“2. The stuff about WTC 7 is all too real. But Bush isn’t the one to blame; that’s Giuliani, for insisting on having an illegal fuel oil tank there. I do hope he runs and is forced to admit flagrantly breaking the law and destroying a $50M building unnecessarily.”

Actually, I would put the blame on the Solomon Smith Barney system. The mayor’s tank was on the second floor, and while it no doubt ruptured and spilled when the building collapsed (adding fuel to the fire), I don’t think that is was responsible for the collapse itself.

The SSB system, however, was a disaster waiting to happen. Because the floor with the SSB generators was already maxed out per the building code for fuel oil storage for other generator systems, the SSB engineers devised a continuous loop fuel pump system. Diesel fuel was pumped from the USTs in the basement to the generator sets on 9 in a continuously pressurized line. The system was equip with a leak detection system that only detected leaks that traveled back though the containment piping to a basement reservoir. If the fuel leaked out of the containment system onto the building floor, then the leak detection system would not work.

The diesel fuel pumps were on a battery back up. The fuel piping traversed the south face of the building, near where there was considerable damage from the impact of debris from the collapse of WTC 1.

The USTs which were full before 9/11, were empty when they were finally excavated.

Tinfoilhat stated:

“Those buildings were demolished by something other than airplanes. Sky scrapers are made to withstand this kind of abuse.”

Are you an architect or a structural engineer?

I though not. Why don’t you make find an architect of an engineer and ask them if skyscrapers are designed to take “this kind of abuse?”

Better, yet, let’s look ad what Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer for the towers has to say:

“One of my jobs was to look at all of the possible events that might take place in a highrise building. And of course there had been in New York two incidences of aircraft impact, the most famous one of course being on the Empire State Building. Now, we were looking at an aircraft not unlike the Mitchell bomber that ran into the Empire State Building. We were looking at aircraft that was lost in the fog, trying to land. It was a low-flying, slow-flying 707, which was the largest aircraft of its time. And so we made calculations, not anywhere near the level of sophistication that we could today. But inside of our ability, we made calculations of what happened when the airplane goes in and it takes out a huge section of the outside wall of the building. And we concluded that it would stand. It would suffer but it would stand. And the outside wall would have a big hole in it, and the building would be in place. What we didn’t look at is what happens to all that fuel. And perhaps we could be faulted for that, for not doing so. But for whatever reason we didn’t look at that question of what would happen to the fuel.”

So, it looks like the building wasn’t really designed to take that kind of abuse after all.

Linda wrote:

(1) how to explain all those completed cell phone calls from the planes, when cell phones rarely if ever work from that height;

It is perfectly possible to make cell phone calls from airplanes. Furthermore, there are “airphone” systems on the back of the seats.

(2) how it can be believed that a novice pilot successfully completed a maneuver in striking the Pentagon that would be very difficult for an extremely seasoned pilot (circling the Pentagon very low to the ground without crashing before hitting the building);
how do you know that that would be difficult to do? Have you ever tried it? I’d be willing to bet that with a few lessons and some time in a flight simulator, you’d be able to do it as well.

(3) why the Pentagon’s surface-to-air defenses did not take the plane out, the Pentagon being an extraordinarily defended building;

You do realize that the pentagon is less than a mile from Reagan National Airport, Don’t you? In fact the approach path to one of the runways is actually right over the building.
Most commercial planes use the “river approach” which is in the direction that Flight 77 came from and which passes less than a half mile away from the pentagon. At400 mph, a jet can cover a half mile in about a 5 seconds.
Should they shoot down every plane that lands or takes off at the airport?

(4) the utterly nonsensical “fact” that a hijacker’s passport was found intact in the rubble of skyscrapers turned to dust.
Er, no. The passport was actually found before the collapse. Much of the airplane passed through the building and parts wound up on the streets below. Someone noticed the passport and picked it up prior to the collapse of the buildings.

Paul wrote:

right lets cut through this crap shall we?
i live in england, ive never been to america. i am not anti semitic, in fact i know nothing about jews, all religions baffle me.
im just an intelligent person with a degree in mathematical physics who looks at the “collapses” of those towers and knows that they were deliberately demolished.
the people posting anti semitic remarks here are doing so deliberately to smear the 911 truth movement.

You say you are an intelligent person, Paul, yet the basic English rules of capitalization and punctuation seem to be beyond your understanding.

If, however you are merely just a lazy poster, and not an ignorant one, then I suggest that you visit the BRE website of the University of Edinburgh. The University of Sheffield also has some good information published by the Structural Fire Research Group.

Put some of that “intelligence” to work and learn about how buildings respond to fires.

The problem here is that Tabbi assumes that all the allegations by every 9/11 theorist must be true at once. Of course they don’t. Some is enough. The real problem for Tabbi is that the government does this kind of thing all the time in other countries. So, the motive is there, the ability is there. And we know they have planned (operation Northwoods) to do this kind of thing before. So, is it insane to think that the government might do something it wants to do, that it can do, that it has planned to do and has actually done in other countries? Not really, it turns out.

Mellio wrote:

”By his own admission Silverstein had Tower 7 pulled by controlled internal demolition eight hours after the first two hits. No plane hit Tower 7.”

WTC 7 was severely damaged by debris from the collapse of WTC 1. The damage was so severe that the FDNY “pulled” all the firefighters back from the building and formed a defensive zone because of the danger of collapse.

”There were two small fires in it that were under control.”

No, the entire lower portion of the building was on fire, and it could not have been “under control” because no one was fighting it.

”In fact, it takes weeks, months to set up a building to be pulled.”

And no one in the building noticed this?

“So his order to “pull it” catches him in a huge lie.”

(rolling my eyes at the inherent stupidity of your logic) {sarcasm}So that was kind of dumb of him to admit it, then wasn’t it? {/sarcasm}

John Brown wrote:

“The problem here is that Tabbi assumes that all the allegations by every 9/11 theorist must be true at once. Of course they don’t. Some is enough.”

So, John, which particular allegations do you believe in?

Bullshit – Matt presumes that he “knows” what’s real. Fact is, nobody really knows, there is no “one” conspiracy theory, and all we know for sure is the admin has lied and lied and obfuscated and covered-up. So where’s that leave smarty-pants Matt? In a dark toilet I’d say. As to those claim govt. incompetence makes insider involvement impossible – well, certain elements in govt. have been incredibly successful for years at running covert, black ops. FACT. The current admin has stolen two presidential elections and is posed to steal more congressional elections in a month. FACT. They are in Iraq building permament bases. FACT.
ONLY those stupid enough believe their actual goal was a peaceful democratic Iraq think they are imcomptent. ONLY those stupid enough to believe their actual goal is to protect poor people in New Orleans think they are incompetent. You are stupid beyond belief. FACT.

it is indeed pathetic that confronted with a complex issue, taibbi plays the game of being some kind of dismissive gatekeeper.
if you believe that oswald was the lone nutter or that 911 was the result of 19 crazed arabs, then you deserve what you get. I hope your father gas begun wearing shoes.

FACT: NIST doesn’t have a credible theory for WTC 7 collapse.

FACT: Virtually all “anti-conspiracist” diatribes are just that, devoid of logic, and Matt’s is more pathetic than most.

FACT: Fear and ego is what drives Matt.

BigJoe wrote:

”You are stupid beyond belief.”

Rather than engage in insults, why don’t you answer the central question that Matt has raised in his artice?

How do you explain that all of the Conspiracy theories are inconsistent with each other, let alone with basic logic?

What is your theory on how the “conspiracy” was carried off? Chemtrails?

What interests me about the 911 Truth Movement is this: these people are willing to believe that Bush, plainly not a very smart man, is actually an evil genius.

SANITY –

Matt’s CENTRAL QUESTION is a chimera, a ruse, a strawman.

If we don’t know what really happened because the investigation was hopelessly stymied and crippled, that doesn’t make the popular verison true. That’s just logic bud.

And the insult was just tit-for-tat. Not proud of it, but there it is…

Bigjoe wrote”

“FACT: NIST doesn’t have a credible theory for WTC 7 collapse.”

Oh, I think they have a credible theory. Fire combined with physical damage to the structure.

The question that hasn’t yet been answered is what specifically went wrong. Were the fires fed by the fuel lines? Was there an inherent flaw in the transfer truss system? Was the fireproofing substandard?

If the Solomon Smith Barney generator fuel system was responsible, then they have to be very careful how they present the evidence.

If the fireproofing was substandard, (as there is indications that it might have been) what are the implications for hundreds of other buildings?

BTW, did you know that the owner of the company that installed the fireproofing in the WTC towers was a Gambino soldier in the crew of “Patsy” Conte?

Sanity asked:

Please name them and provide a list of the names of the high rise buildings that they have designed also.

So now they need to be engineers who have designed buildings, too? What’s the next qualification? That they designed the Trade Center itself? That you’ve heard of them? Honestly, would anything I say have any effect on you opinions?

Before I go through any effort, I’d like to know your background and areas of expertise. I hate wasting my time.

Also, that’s ALL you got out of what I posted? I though I made it clear that I’m more cocerned with motivations than I am with technical aspects. We can throw experts quotes at each other all day and it won’t convince either one of us. The only scientific method of legitimacy would be to attempt to recreate the event, which is highly unlikely.

“SANITY –
Matt’s CENTRAL QUESTION is a chimera, a ruse, a strawman.

I don’t think so, and the fact that you refuse to deal with it only reinforces his point.

Sanity -

Yes, there are conspiracy theories that contradict each other. there are also aspects of the official story that contradict each other.

I don’t think anyone is postulating that ALL the conspiracy theories are true simultaneously, I think people are pointing out the inconsistancies that they themselves see. To bunch them all together and label them en masse as either all true or all false is intellectually dishonest.

SANITY –

Explain logically why Matt’s CENTRAL QUESTION proves anything at all. How does not having a proper investigation and therefore not really knowing what happened amount to proving the govt. version true?

LOGIC only please.

“So now they need to be engineers who have designed buildings, too? What’s the next qualification? “

Well that would help.

You wouldn’t go to a podiatrist when you need to see the proctologist, now would you?

Bigjoe:

His central point is that there is no underlying logic to the conspiracy theories.

Mark wrote:

“there are also aspects of the official story that contradict each other.

Please elaborate. If you can keep it specifically to the WTC collapse or the pentagon attacks that would be helpful. I am not going to chase around on some obscure tangent. Thanks.

Sanity –

You seem only to address certain aspects of my comments. Would you please list your backgound and areas of expertise?

Second, the 9-11 commission’s investigation stops at the begin of the collapse of the towers, so keeping the subject to the collapse itself is pointless.

A few of the immediate contradictions that come to mind is that the FAA timelines contradict the NORAD timelines. Now, simple ass-covering may well explain this, but according to recent revelatiions by the 9-11 committee acknowledge that they KNEW the timelines contradicted each other, but chose not to investigate or highlight this fact. Now again, there may well be an innocent explanation of this, and it may simply be ass-covering, but in an arena where the committee was supposed to be exploring what went wrong and why in oorder to prevent it from happening again, I think ass-covering would be a criminal offense, don’t you?

SANITY –

Proves nothing, or should I say, proves that people who are left with a govt. version that is manifestly unwholesome will create alternatives. Situation Normal, All F**ked Up. Gee, if I were trying to hide something, that’s exactly what I’d want. Duh…

What happened to Max Cleland anyways?

Sanity says…

His central point is that there is no underlying logic to the conspiracy theories.

And how does that make your version true? LOGIC PLEASE.

Sloganeering
Divisi ve
Accusatory
Reductive

Gee, sounds like an excellent description of Matt Taibbi’s writing style.

Interestingly, the articles I have read by structural engineers are limited by the assumption that the buildings fell because of the jets, how did that happen? Then you get several explanations of alternatives as to why it happened. It’s an explanation of an assumed fact – naturally, because that is indeed what appears to have happened. Engineers usually don’t try to explain unproven alternatives.

No, I can claim to have a logical mind, but I can’t claim to have expertise in the physics of engineering. There are things that strike me as unlikely or suspicious, but out of my realm of knowledge. I’m much more interested in the contradictions of the National Security Advisor stating that no one could have concieved of terrorists using airplanes as weapons when not only had the Lone Gunmen done so years ago, there had been repeated memos detailing the concept and they were running scenarios of that very thing happening the very day that it did…

Or why George Bush claimed on three seperate occasions to have seen the first plane strike the towers and assume it was a bad pilot, when video was not broadcast until the following day of the first hit. Of course, my may have mispoke and meant the second hit, but he was in the classroom at the time, and was told by Andy Card that there was a second hit and America was under attack, so even then if he saw a replay of the second hit, there’s no way he could mistake it for a bad pilot.

Okay, it could be that he’s just a vainglorious man trying to deal himself into the narrative any way he can, but if that’s the case, he’’s pretty dumb to try it in that manner.

Mark, you seem to be avoiding my questions.

My background and expertise is immaterial to this discussion.

Oh, I have no doubt that ass-covering was involved. Given the confusion of the day, I also don’t doubt that the timelines don’t always match up, especially when you are trying to reconstruct that timeline post facto.

At the heart of the conspiracy theories, however, are the building collapses and the Pentagon attack.

Where are there any inconsistencies in the events of that day in those instances?

If you take away those issues, all you have left is the political argument. Which is fine, you can argue that all you want. But if you think that the buildings were pre-rigged with explosives, or that a missile hit the Pentagon, then you are going to have to come up with better proof than the standard C.T fare.

Sanity –

I never said any of those things occurred, I’m not avoiding any questions, I asked before I take the time to research and bring up quotes, please let me know more about you, and whether there’s any reason to continue the conversation. Your expertise is immaterial to the argument of the trade centers falling, but it is material to me as to whether you are actually interested, or if you just get off shooting down conspiracy theories on line.

I think I made it clear in my original post that I don’t care about pods under planes, missile attacks, or preset explosives.

I care that the buildings collapsing in such a manner seems unlikely to me, that the explanation that covers the towers fails to account for building seven, so we need another explanation for that one…

But mostly, that the assumption that by dismissing the outlandish theories, we can also dismiss the motivations and situations that surround and may have caused September 11th as well as any contradictions in the White House story, like its attempt to quash any investigation whatsoever into the worst terrorist attack on American soil.

Uhh – there’s more than just the WTC collapses and the Pentagon…
(see below). Where else has a crashed plane been spread over 8 miles and nary a recognizable artifact in sight – except, of course, they found a”hijacker visa” in superb condition at the site, (and also a hijacker passport in supreme condition in NYC doncha know…).

WASHINGTON – Ever since Sept. 11, 2001, there have been questions about Flight 93, the ill-fated plane that crashed in the rural fields of Pennsylvania.

The official story has been that passengers on the United Airlines flight rushed the hijackers in an effort to prevent them from crashing the plane into a strategic target – possibly the U.S. Capitol.

During his surprise Christmas Eve trip to Iraq, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld referred to the flight being shot down – long a suspicion because of the danger the flight posed to Washington landmarks and population centers.

”Interestingly, the articles I have read by structural engineers are limited by the assumption that the buildings fell because of the jets, how did that happen? ”

Really. Most articles that I have read by engineers and scientists that have studied the collapse focus on the role of the fires in the collapse.

”Then you get several explanations of alternatives as to why it happened. It’s an explanation of an assumed fact – naturally, because that is indeed what appears to have happened. Engineers usually don’t try to explain unproven alternatives.”

Why should engineer waste their time trying to explain an unproven alternative?

What alternatives would you consider valid? That aliens in UFOs cause the buildings to collapse?

NIST did consider the possibility of explosives, but they found no evidence to support that possibility.

”No, I can claim to have a logical mind, but I can’t claim to have expertise in the physics of engineering. There are things that strike me as unlikely or suspicious, but out of my realm of knowledge.”

I think you for your honesty in admitting that. Few people here will.

”I’m much more interested in the contradictions of the National Security Advisor stating that no one could have concieved of terrorists using airplanes as weapons when not only had the Lone Gunmen done so years ago, there had been repeated memos detailing the concept and they were running scenarios of that very thing happening the very day that it did… “

The problem is, you are dealing with people in an entrenched bureaucracy. We have always prepared ourselves to fight the last war. Sure there are a few prescient Billy Mitchells out there, but as a whole, that is the nature of the beast.

Sanity -
Really. Most articles that I have read by engineers and scientists that have studied the collapse focus on the role of the fires in the collapse.

Yes, fires caused by the planes. Or, more technically, the plane fuel.

Why should engineer waste their time trying to explain an unproven alternative?

Exactly my point. If you can stay away from UFO references for a second, the question is posed “why did the planes cause the Trade Center to collapse.” If you posed the question “what could make the Trade Center collapse?” BEFORE September 11th, I know that people had been quoted that not even a plane crashing into it could make it collapse.

Ask the engineers “could something else have caused the towers to collapse in such a manner?” and you will get all the theoreticals you might want, including your UFO’s, but I don’t place that in catagory of likely.

September 11th was exactly what the neocons wanted, it was exactly what they needed. I believe my scenario is a likely as anything else,

I also see contradictions in the activities of the alleged terrorists. No devout Muslim would spend his time trolling strip clubs. It’s possible they were simply providing “cover”, but to commit such a sin right before sacrificing your life? Why? No one seemed to be paying attention to them at all, they specifically went into flight schools asking to learn to fly, but not land, etc. Risking paradise for a few hours in a titty bar?

weird.

From Lexington Herald-Leader..

By Heather Chapman
HERALD-LEADER STAFF WRITER

….
The theorists also are deeply suspicious, if not outright derisive, of the “official” story. One reviewer on Amazon.com referred to this book as “uncle Bush” telling us a “nicey story.”

Yes, my friends, anyone who doesn’t trust the president to tell the truth MUST BE A NUT!
CASE CLOSED!

THAT IS THE MINDSET of the government believers, even though case after case of government lying has been exposed.

BUT, if we are all NUT CASES, why the increasingly VICIOUS ATTACKS?

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Matt’s CENTRAL QUESTION is a chimera, a ruse, a strawman.

“sanity”: I don’t think so

Your opinion is duly noted.

“THAT IS THE MINDSET of the government believers”

Expect to see more of it, now that anyone disagreeing with the government can be legally declared an “enemy combatant” with no Constitutional protections.

They’re no doubt covering their asses. Buncha cowards…

Well, it’s been fun, kids – but I need to get back to work…

Unless anyone wants to fund the contruction of a duplicate Trade Center tower and fly a 747 into it just to see if it really could happen the way we’ve been told…

Dear “sanity”:

mellio didn’t write this, someone else did. Maybe “Mellio” did. Nonetheless, “mellio” agrees with it…

”… No plane hit Tower 7.”

Your conspiracy theory of why WTC7 collapsed is utter nonsense. “Fire” does not burn uniformly, and “falling debris” does not fall uniformly.

Watch the film clips. “fire” and/or “falling debris” did not cause the WTC7 collapse. In order for this building to collapse as shown (and the following page shows a number of different angles), ALL SUPPORT COLUMNS WOULD HAVE TO GIVE WAY AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.

whatreallyhappene d/wtc7.html

Quoted in the posted link:

“Take a close look at the manner in which WTC 7 collapses straight down. For the building to collapse in this fashion, all of the load bearing supports would have had to fail at exactly the same time.

“No, not really. You are confused…”

Yes, really. I am not confused. Sorry if you can’t handle that, but your spin is nonsense.

That’s all it is, is “spin”. Proof of that is the fact that the gubmint keeps changing its’ story.

Deal with it…

Sanity – I’d be curious to see the videos you reference. How did you come by them? How do you know so much about what happened internally to the building? Where do you get your information? Why isn’t it presented more openly to the public? Are the conclusions yours – making your expertise of some importance – are are you merely quoting other sources? If so, may i have access to those sources?

Obviously you have access to the “whole” video of building 7 collapsing, where we have to make do with what’s available to us and draw conclusions from it.

Please share so we can all know better.

Mellio wrote:
”mellio didn’t write this, someone else did. Maybe “Mellio” did. Nonetheless, “mellio” agrees with it…”
Mellio, or mellio, writing about himself or herself in the third or fourth person, is a clear affront to Sanity (or sanity).

”… No plane hit Tower 7.”

Who claimed that one did?

The building was hit by debris from the collapse of WTC 1. Eye witnesses related severe damage to the south face of the building as a result of this. There are photographs showing some, but not all of this damage. Why don’t they show all of the damage? Because the building was obscured by thick clouds of smoke pouring out of it.

”Your conspiracy theory of why WTC7 collapsed is utter nonsense. “Fire” does not burn uniformly, and “falling debris” does not fall uniformly.”

I’m not really sure what your point is here. Who said that fire burned uniformly? The building had a unique structural design (you knew that didn’t you?) The building was physically damaged as well as on fire.

What falling debris are you talking about? From WTC 1 or 7?

”Watch the film clips. “fire” and/or “falling debris” did not cause the WTC7 collapse. In order for this building to collapse as shown (and the following page shows a number of different angles), ALL SUPPORT COLUMNS WOULD HAVE TO GIVE WAY AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.”

The please explain why the penthouses collapsed well before the rest of the building?

Ok fellas, what part of structural design and/or failure do you want to know about. All the comments I have read do not appear to originate with an actual structural engineer.

Carbon 6 – are you one? A stuctural engineer?

Yes,
BS,MS
and PhD candidate

Oh, and I analyze structural impacts…

Sweet! Someone who actually might know something!

So what’s you take on it?

Lots of flawed logic here, on both sides. Many assumptions that I can’t take for granted.

Obviously, even degrees in specific technologies can’t answer all questions, and naturally all the variables can’t be quantified precisely, and much of the evidence was destroyed without examination, so…

I really don’t have time to do a complete narrative. Kind of a ground rule. I don’t want to be attacked by people with gut feelings. Most times science doesn’t respond well to that and neither do I. I personally believe the LC guys are morons with regard to engineeing; I also have an opinion on the rest of their stuff which I won’t share here. To me its pointless to argue with faceless people regarding something that is so emotionally charged. That said, what do you what to know about specifically?

And on that note, Sanity – please give with the obvious and clear video of Building 7 collapsing that proves your point. I don’t think any of us here have access to it, and I’d really like to see it…

Steel melts at 2500F and aluminum at 1100F. I don’t have any evidence as to what the alleged melted metal was so I can’t comment. From what I know of the likely fire temperatures, it is not likely that the fires caused any steel to melt. Aluminum is another matter.

Something that is very important here is this: Steel loses about 80% of its strength at around 1100 F. That means steel does not have to melt before the onset of failure, particularly when it comes to buckling of columns or sagging of beams/girder/trusses.

And on that note, Sanity – please give with the obvious and clear video of Building 7 collapsing that proves your point. I don’t think any of us here have access to it, and I’d really like to see it…

I’ll have to pass until later tonight. I don’t have the lik handy.

Killtown has cut up versions of it, but he keeps it cut up for a reason, so you can’t see the entire sequence.

One of the NIST slide presentations had a nice breakdown of the time sequence of the collapse.

Unfortunately I don’t have access to them right now. Be patient.

Sanity,

I’ll have to reply later, something has come up. My short answer is that scale modeling in general is problematic specifically when it comes to fire (available surface area etc). Looking at this paper would however be a good place for most folks to start. I’ll get back to you though.

Your commentary has been spot on so far though, IMO.

So you don’t have a problem with the standard accepted information? No red flags?

I promise, I won’t start insulting you, I’m just trying to get to the bottom of things, and articles that spend more time on missiles and pods and UFO’s than they do on physics tends to indicate to me that they have axes to grind.

I’m patient, but for a man who claims to have all the answers, there seems to be a lot of “the dog ate my homework..’

Why isn’t this video presented vigorously to conteract the alternative video? Why is the alternative edited to fool us video the default one you tend to find?

Part of what fuels the conspiracy theories is the refusal to answer questions. People float question after question, and the answers range from “why should I speak to crazy people?” to “why do you hate America?”.

Why did the Bush administration not want to be under oath? Why did they delay any investigation for two years? Why did Bush not testify without Cheney in the room? Why does the NORAD and FAA testimony contradict each other, and why didn’t anyone note that at the time? Whatever happened with the supposed hijackers that supposedly turned up alive? Why when you ask these questions do people start shouting “tin-foil hat?”

Carbon6, you tated:

“From what I know of the likely fire temperatures, it is not likely that the fires caused any steel to melt. Aluminum is another matter.”

Are you talking about the temperatures of the fires pre or post collapse?

It is important to keep these two situations separate. The post-collapse fires burned for weeks before the “molten” materials were found.

Interestingly, whether or not the towers collapsed due to the heat and crash, whether tower 7 fell on it’s own, whether anything other than a plane hit the pentagon, none of this has any bearing on the motivations and the individuals who may or may not of set this in motion. In fact, it’s really a distraction from it. There’s plenty of odd activity from the Bush adminstration involved in this, and that’s always what I’ve been more interested in…

It is important to keep these two situations separate. The post-collapse fires burned for weeks before the “molten” materials were found.

Really? Not what I’ve read. Again, please link your sources, because from what I’ve read the molten materials BURNED for weeks after the collapsed. Also – what fueled them?

I couldn’t link to the other paper. Could be too much traffic. You spout tech pretty well – again I ask, what’s your background and expertise?

We all cant look at ourselves in the mirror and say that foul play wasnt involved in this event.There is no way in hell that those two buildings fell down the way they did and how fast they did by an airplane. The fact that the goverment refuses to talk about it or release videos of the crash but using it as an legit excuse to go to war with a nation that had nothing to do with it is reason enough not to take another look. I believe the real reason behind all of this is oil. From the the rigged election to 9/11 to iraq its all about oil. Oil companies are making the most money in the history of the world, they are price gouging and no one has made them take responsiblity for it or has done a real investigation of the oil companies… hmm i wonder why? making the most money isnt going to slow them down or make them stop so the thing we have to do is force them to come forward about everything because voting is no longer an option anymore.

Sanity

I really don’t think it matters.
Pre collapse, the fires did not go over 2000F therefore, no steel melted. Some other metal maybe.

Post collapse, there would not have been a sufficient fire source that could have melted steel either.

What happened to the steel during the collapse and subsequent impact is another issue.

The bottom line is no fire present would have been hot enough to melt steel. Soften it considerably, yes, create molten steel, not a chance.

Mike a,

Really, what is your evidence of that? What in your vast experience would allow you to convince yourself that no way could planes have brought down the towers.

Now, you’re right, the plane impact itself did not bring the towers down. All of the effects due to the jets crashing did, most specifically, the fires that started.

So its really just semantics to you right. Ok, I give in the planes themselves did not in fact bring the buildings down, they just precipitated the event.

Oh and bringing up big oil is like bringing up hitler in an argument. That said, you automatically lose. Big Oil. Pfffttppph.

Interesting. Three possibilities then. The accounts of molten steel are wrong, the melted metal was something other than steel, or three, something hotter than accounted for melted the steel.

I do not know what the real story is and it does not really matter because there is too much information missing to make a strong case for either scenerio. However, it is the way that the government used the tragedy to create fear amoung the American people: To rally the people behind the nationalistic cause: and to make the Talaban the enemy. This is a state which the US government favours. This is also the trap that people should not fall into. You are dealing with excellent spin masters.

Matt Taibbi’s assertion that US culture has fragmented to the point that both the 9/11 Truth movement and the Government now live in totally separate – but equally fantastic realities is misguided.

Two separate realities have always existed with regard to US economic and foreign policy; the version that the US spins to its own people (and to a lesser degree to the rest of us) and the compartmentalized reality of what is actually done on the ground in other countries, vis a vis assassinations, coups, funding and arming of death squads, the overthrow of elected Governments etc. All of this is (eventually), well documented in the official record and largely quite uncontroversial.

As long as the truth only came out (i.e. was declassified) fifteen to twenty years after the fact, the two realities were able to run in parallel and then merge within the public consciousness decades later, with minimal friction or impact on the machinations of the powerful. For example, many Americans can simultaneously believe in a plot to assassinate John F. Kennedy by elements of their own Government, yet still be totally incredulous of the possibility that elements of their own Government might have been involved in 911 – Orwellian doublethink at its best.

The difference today, which the author incorrectly ascribes to a polarization of outlook into two or more equally fallacious and paranoid world views, is actually the result of something else entirely. The information revolution is now making it almost impossible for the power groups that drive US policy to maintain the Orwellian doublethink that is required to keep their population buying unquestioningly into their spun version of history.

Their proclamations look more and more unlikely to a population which now has access to uncontrolled information sources. This makes it ever harder for the populace to swallow the BS that they need to believe in in order to keep the wheels of the ‘machine’ spinning smoothly (oiled well, of course, with the blood of exploited and usually darker skinned peoples everywhere).

This process is accelerating as more and more of what the US Government / Media combine tells the people is demonstrated to be untrue (WMDs, Iraq-911 links etc.). The BS itself isn’t new though. What the Government has told the people has always been untrue – but it just hasn’t been so easy for individuals to get the truth out to others, or so hard for the powers that be to stamp it out or silence it. The best method remaining for information control is now obfuscation. This consists of the dissemination of quite ludicrous or unprovable theories that cloud the real and legitimate questions around events like 911 (and which give media wh0r3s like Matt something easy to mock).

It seems what Mr Taibbi really hankers for are the good old days when it was easier to just believe what you were told and keep your head in the sand. Too bad buddy, those days are gone and sooner or later the citizens of the US are going to have to face what a hideous monster their state has become.

I wont even comment on the first part of Matt’s article as it would take too long to take it apart piece by piece. Suffice it to say – yet another pseudo-journalist has trashed the easy targets and completely failed to address the meaningful questions. He almost seems to get it when he implies that the 911 Truth movement almost seems like a counter-intelligence op, buts fails to connect the dots underlying that thought….

Uh oh, Carbon 6, your failure to address my other questions lost some points, but your paranoid anti Islamic ranting just blew it for me. You buy the Republican fear mongering hook line and sinker. Too bad, I thought I might gain information here.

Yes, there are Islamic radicals, yes they are crazy, but the odds of you ever being bothered by one are less than the odds of you being killed by a drunk driver.

Comparisons of fearing those in charge our system of government to a talibanesque government is a logical fallacy of the worst kind. Because another system of government is worse than ours, it does not logically follow that there is nothing to fear from our government.

Just another jingoist…

The flip side to your argument, Nib is that any tool with and agenda and a computer can put unverified crap on the internet. So instead of people swallowing the governments line of crap (such as it is) they can swallow the crap of some yahoo in his basement.

In this case, its Avery and his buddies. The ironic thing is, why is no one looking into their motivations for doing loose change and why are people just swallowing THIS crap so easily? Is it because they are just average citizens asking questions? The real story seems to be, they realized they could get some fame and fortune, and they are milking it for all its worth.

After all, its all about money right?

Sadly, the radicals that have the mid-westerners so terrified really were fringe actors, a small group of fanatics that weren’t really welcome except in a couple of rogue states. After 9-11, it’s likely that with the world’s sympathy and fear of our as yet unexpressed military resolve, that they could have been wiped out completely. Unfortunately, we invaded Iraq and keep demonizing ALL Islamics, and turned even the moderates against us. Now Al Qaeda is bigger, copycats abound, and despite the fact that we keep killing the number 2 Al Qaeda guy – again and again – we’re actually further from stopping them.

Mark,

a) never said we shouldn’t fear our government. We should however have SOME fear of those who have professed a sincere desire to kill us all.

b)jingoist. haha. Is that the best you can do. Lose an argument call me a racist, or jingoist. blahblahblah. Dude, you don’t know me so sod off.

c) ask Europe if they ever thought they would be bothered. Seems like they dropped the ball much like we will if we aren’t vigilant.

d) Since you went down that ad hominem road, what questions asshat? I don’t much care about your government paranoia, but if you have an Engineering question fire away.

In any case, I thought I would provide some engineering incite to people swallowing the unsubstantiated garbage from a professor of cold fusion at BYU and these jackass amateur film makers. Speaking of hook and line Mark.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Idiot.

The way I remember it, is that as of September 12th, no one questioned the government line, no one doubted that we needed to stand behind our president.

People may have observed the convinience of things, but there were few if any protests on invading Afganistan.

Then we noticed the government was fighting any investigation into Sept.11th.

And then we noticed that they finally gave in after enough bad press, but chose to do under very restrictive circumstances.

Then people who started to question things were labeled as unpatriotic. Then poeople really began to notice that a lot of things didn’t make any sense. And if you looked back, the government kept contradicting itself. Iraq happened, and anyone who looked could see that what the government was peddling as truth was challenged from multiple sources.

Then so many things happened that pretty much proved that the government was lying about a lot of things.

So why not 9-11 itself?

Carbon6, the reason people are buying into the crap as you call it is because they understand from experience that this Government wont tell them the truth about anything. Given that and lacking a real investigation of the crime, they have to find some reality that they can pin their beliefs to. Even the 911 Commisioners now say they were lied to by the Government / Military and had to drag (untrue) testimony out kicking and screaming. Bush wouldn’t even testify under oath! Perhaps people believe the conspiracy theories because they’d rather believe their Government were effective murderers than small minded, self serving utter incompetents – which are the choice you have to pick from… As for your fantasy that muslim’s are ‘Animals’ who want want to destroy us all, my god, are you Dick Cheney’s love child or what?!

Nib,

They aren’t pentecostal Christians.

And I didn’t say all Muslims. I said Taliban/Al Qaida. The desciption is apt.

But since Mark already labeled me a jingoist, why worry about what I actually wrote.

And of course, you Nib, know what the truth is right. And the 911 commission wasn’t filled with politicians trying to cover their own failures (see Jamie Gorelick). Since 2000, libs have been trying to hang GWB; I wouldn’t have testified under oath either. Or maybe I would, because a President that commits perjury commits not crime right?

I’d scan in my degrees if I thought I wouldn’t be stalked by someone on this site.

Love the condescension though. And the typical liberal crap of character assassination. I’m done here. I’ve got better things to do with my time. Enjoy your angry rants

Now, it has yet to be proven that I’ve accepted anyone’s argument, I’ve been asking questions, not pretendingI have answers. We are all limited by the information we have access to, and so far I’ve been told there’s a video of building seven falling that looks less like it was intentionally demolished, but no one has been able to show it to me. Pools of molten steel have been reported at the base that remained molten for days. Is this true? I don’t know, but Carbon6 states there was not sufficient heat to melt steel. So I look at the possibilities.

Claiming you have proof but can’t show it is exactly what the government has been doing, and this is what created the conspiracy theories in the first place.

If you want to shed light on the subject, then lets not encourage fear, but use rational analysis on the facts.

What angry rants? I’m countering your points, mostly what I consider innaccurate rants against me.

I’m asking questions, and I’m specifically asking for your educated analysis. Why run now?

Hm…I guess he was just a troll. Too bad, I was hoping to pick up some educated information.

At least he confirmed that the pools couldn’t have been molten steel unless there was some other heat source.

Carbon6, you’re such a fun disputant to goad but I’ll leave it at this and you can claim the final word… which will, I’m sure, be both erudite and belligerent.

I stand corrected. You DID say that the Taliban/Al Qaida are animals, not all Muslims. Just as well your country’s policies are turning so many of the latter into the former then isn’t it, at least according you your own combined intel agencys’ assessment?

If you good ol’ boys didn’t keep creating more ‘animals’ to butcher then just think of the plunging profits for poor Halliburton and your arms industry. Boo-hoo.

The rest of your comments are harder to follow but no, I DON’T claim to know what happened. I’d sure like to though. That’s why in cases like this its traditional to have a real and credible crim-in-al in-vest-i-ga-tion (not sure if you’re familiar with the concept – its where the guilty party isn’t decided by fox news within two hours of the crime).

You seem to defend the 911 Commission as being a credible investigation (its hard to tell though, I think you might have been getting a bit excited by that point) but then you go on to suggest that the President shouldn’t have had to testify to it under oath?! There really isn’t anything more to say to someone who could seriously advance such a view.

I wont label you as anything. It will be quite clear to any intelligent reader exactly what you are.

Have a nice day defended the indefensible. Ciao!

Damn, too late, he fled before I could…

Warning! Warning! Rambling flame-war ahead! Proceed at own risk!

Good shots, nib.

Actually, I’ve known some Pentacostal Christians who were animals, but that’s another subject.

And while I’m on it, mixing up Al Qaeda and the Taliban is another fallacy. Al Qaeda may have attacked us, but the Taliban were having barbeque at the ranch just a couple of months before.

They harbored Bin Ladin, but they never expressed a desire to attack the United States.

An engineer who fears stalkers? Okay, but I’m athinkin’ delusions of grandeur here…

The filmmakers, Verboud and Viallet, spent nearly two years interviewing witnesses and researching the invocation and implementation of the state secrets privilege in Edmonds’ case. Based on their documented findings and interviews with experts such as David Albright, Philip Giraldi, John Cole, Joseph Trento, Glenn Fine, David Rose, and others familiar with Edmonds’ case, the film presents a terrifying picture of Turkish networks’ activities in global nuclear black-market, narcotics and illegal arms trafficking activities in the United States, and examines the extraordinary efforts of officials within the US Government to insure that the secrecy surrounding Edmonds’ case be maintained at any cost – from Edmonds’ termination from the FBI, to invoking the State Secrets Privilege, to gagging the US Congress.

Matt Tiabbi should stay away from politics, unless He has answers and not just an opinion. I wonder if he understands that his constitutional rights have been taken away from him and Bush is currently running an illegal shadow government through the CFR and SPP. this is treason. your article was a joke. If you gave us more than the tainted whitewash of the 911 comission and I don’t know if he’s even smart enough to know what the North American Union is he would realize that crooks are running this country and are bleeding it dry. I wonder if he’ll have second thoughts when his paycheck shrinks to nothing when we (America and Canada) have to bail out mexico and lose the United States of America. Bush serves the globalists not the people of America.

I live in Australia, the conspiracy theory people don’t deserve to live in you country. They are beyong help. Imagine being in public office and having to listen to this crap. I would take my pension and tell you all to go fuck your insane selfs. Imagine what Al Quaida is thinking. Thes stupid bastards are giving GWB the credit for 9/11. Why don’t we waite a few years these idiots will destroy themselves. LOL

Time and time again, Americans have been confronted with the FACT that their govt. is rife with criminal elements that use the full apparatus of govt. to cover their trails. Nixon, Iran-Contra.

As Edmonds has stated, the cast of players she stumbled upon during her time at the FBI and some of the very same people that Valerie Plame was investigating involved the actions of top officials in the government and a lot of illegal activities that include multi-billion-dollar drug-smuggling operations, black-market nuclear sales to terrorists and unsavory regimes. In an August 5th interview, Edmonds said, “You can start from the AIPAC angle. You can start from the Plame case. You can start from my case. They all end up going to the same place, and they revolve around the same nucleus of people.”

J’ACCUSE

Sloganeering
Divi sive
Accusatory
Reductive

Yes, that is an excellent description of Matt Taibbi’s article.

Hey, thanks for clearing it up for me with your excellent fiction. Now you can go back to sleep like the rest of America. We’ll take it from here, thank you very much.

In 1998, explosives were detonated in the largest building ever brought down by controlled demolition at the time – it was 33 stories. That demolition took a 12 man crew 24 days to set 4,118 charges in 1,100 locations with 36,000 feet of detonating cord and over 2,700 pounds of explosives.

To bring down two 110-story buildings and a 47 story building, it would take tens of thousands of man hours and at least that many pounds of materials – all of which has to be done in secret and hidden from public view. The project of replacing walls, painting, etc., would be an even more massive undertaking than the project of setting the demolitions itself. I don’t care how many fire drills they had at the WTC in the weeks prior to 9/11 to try and vacate different areas of the buildings, it would be absolutely impossible to pull something like this off without having everyone who worked at the WTC notice.

Hey, Redhead Infidel,

Haven’t you heard the latest theory? It was a nano-nuke that was hidden in William Rodriguez’s lunch box.

It was detonated by a HAARP ray that ignited an invisible chemtrail leading from the towers to Rozwell New Mexico, where the Queen of England was busy shedding her reptilian skin.

Yeah, I thought so….

My home computer (and power) was down last night from the T-storms.

Sanity, your reasoning is very questionable and you never address points (or questions) that people present you, only side remarks (ie. I don’t know how electricity works). Stop attacking people for proposing an alternate explanation because none of those matter, AT ALL! They are just that: alternate explanations. What matters are the questions that are being asked by the real american citizens, patriots, people from the truth movement, that are currently ignored by both the mainstream media and the American (and British and Canadian governments, after all we also went to war without proving beyond a doubt who the criminals are) governments. Some of the questions that have not been addressed (and there are literally thousands but I will list only a few:
1. where are the video tapes that were confiscated immediately after the pentagon was struck (some say there are around 80 of these)
2. where is the debris from the world trade center buildings so that the steel and concrete can be tested by experts (independent investigations) such as yourself so that the horrible engineering of those buildings can be corrected to ensure that fires lasting an hour don’t bring down 110-storey skyscrapers.
3. Why were crucial testimonies from the 9/11 commission left out of the report (ie. rodriguez, individuals from NORAD and FAAD reporting conflicting chain of events.
4. where are the black boxes from the planes that were reported found days after 9/11 at ground zero
5. where is the passport that was found a couple of blocks away from ground zero unscorched apperantly belonging to one of the hijackers that was on one of the planes that just struck the world trade center
6. why don’t we hear anything about the mastermind of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s, case. He has been in our custody for 3 years and not a peep?????
7. Why is Osama Bin Laden not wanted for 9/11 on FBI’s own website?????
8. Howcome Bush stuttered when asked whether he had prior knowledge on 9/11 and left us with the only response of “there’s time for politics and that’s some sort of insinuation” (it’s like somebody blames you that you killed 3000 people that you were sworn to protect and you don’t get insulted nor mad) see the video for yourself on google, it’s incriminating on its own and it’s the only time I’ve seen the press directly questioning the president about 9/11
9. Which brings the next question: why was he unwilling to testify under oath or in open for the 9/11 commission? This is a leader of a democratic society! He needs to go under oath whenever that is asked from him not run from it like the devil himself. He shouldn’t even need the oath, he should be telling the truth but that’s way too much to ask of a president of US, isn’t it?

I’ll stop there, and I don’t have any theories about how the buildings fell or who did it or anything. I would just like to know an answer by the government to any one of those questions (preferably all) at any time. It’s kind of warranted, dont’ you think? After all, in the most recent poll 40% of Americans believe the government played a role or was at least involved in the coverup. what’s their reply to this? Silence. They dont’ even address it nor does CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC or any other of these socalled media. Oh, and by the way, for research look up Steven Jones from Brigham Young University.

cheers

your call yourself a journalist?
100 million in insider trading-SeC ruled
it was an Inside job.. your a disgusting Rat f*K. that phat disinformation check you recieved must have been realy nice. your an abomonation to all.
Liberty and justice for All.

Hey Redness –

A lot of the issue, I think, is summed up by your post, bringing up reasonable questions, and some others, which are little more than “you suck! Bush knew!”. I think Sanity’s responses suffice for the latter, but I don’t understand the contempt and hostility for the former. We can only draw conclusions from the data we have, and if our data contradict the official story – or appears to -then we are right to question the story, and no amount of insults or rudeness will change that.

Unfortunately, in two cases so far, self labeled “rational” people arguing that we’re all nuts seem to fall into insults, strawman arguments, or disappear when someone askes them to provide the data that apparently only they have access to that proves us wrong.

vemrion wrote:

“Most of the time errant planes are intercepted within 15 to 20 minutes, but the hijackings took place over a time period of almost 2 hours!”

No. In the most cited example of this, the Payne Stewart case, it took an hour and a half to divert an F-16 that was already airborne on a routine training flight to intercept the Payne Stewart plane after ATC lost contact with it.

That plane was flying straight and level with the transponder on.

Once again, cite your source, please.

10/26/1999
KRTBN Knight-Ridder Tribune Business News: The Dallas Morning News – Texas

Instead, according to an Air Force timeline, a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to the stricken Lear, beginning with a pair of F-16 Falcons from the Air National Guard at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., about 20 minutes after ground controllers lost contact.

There’s my evidence, along with sources…

What’s the difference between EDT and CDT?

So, does anyone want to guess how much time elapsed between 09:37 EDT and 9:52 CDT?

Anyone?

Second source – 20 minutes after losing contact.

I don’t know if the CDT and EDT variances are what you think they are…

Gotta find the site again. Now, where’s your sources, where’s the video, where’s anything to back up your argument before you disappear again?

You have a habit of that.

Interesting and valid, though, if the EDT and CDT data are what people were missing, and they were only paying attention to the numbers.

Nevertheless, the spokesmen state something different.

If accurate, a pretty bad implication for our defense forces. An hour & 20 minutes? That’s the best we can do?

So where’s that video?

Interesting…do such reports often switch between time zones rather than giving a linear time frame? Also, I would have to assume that airspace over Washington at least would be better monitored/protected than airspace over the middle sections of the country, with airbases considerably closer.

One source is inaccurate, either the government or…the government. So either the government is giving us false information, or the government is. Glad we cleared that up.

Washington Post
Tuesday, October 26, 1999

The FAA said air traffic controllers lost radio contact with the plane at 9:44 a.m., just after they had cleared the twin-engine jet to climb to 39,000 feet northwest of Gainesville, Fla.

Pentagon officials said the military began its pursuit of the ghostly civilian aircraft at 10:08 a.m.

Now that make 3 legitimate news sources I’ve quoted that state or imply that fighters were scrambled and there within around 20 minutes of losing contact with the flight.

If this is the kind of information people are given, their conclusions are valid, not something to be mocked. If the EDT/CDT report is accurate, and was misinterpreted by 3 major news sources, then again, you can hardly blame the individuals who base conclusions on faulty information given. If anything, the government should be blamed for not making it clear that the response times they were giving to the media were based on the local time zones rather than a consistant timeline. I don’t know of anyone who begins a report in one time zone and ends it in another – but then, I’m not a pilot. That may well be a common thing.

Of course, while all of this is fun, it has no bearing on why 9-11 happened. All this, too, is another form of distraction, a way of getting people to focus on the minutea of unproveable details instead of focusing on the important stuff.

(If indeed an hour and a half is the time frame it takes for F-16’s to respond to a situation…why freakin’ bother? This isn’t the impression you get from Top Gun…but on the other hand, Randy “Duke” “Maverick” Cunningham turned out to be a petty crook anyway.)

Mr. Taibbi, I understand your frustration with some of the conspiracy expounders because they’re just as rash and unpersuasive as you are. Whether the government was behind it or not isn’t even really worth talking about until something close to a proven link is offered up. But really you should examine specific evidence for specific theories and arrive your own conclusion as to why you believe it is or isn’t valid based on how you’ve assessed the evidence. And then present that instead of cheesy comedy. I could say evry issue of Rolling Stone is crap, but that wouldn’t really be fair (Wait, bad analogy..) A lot of the people who put forth the 5 Israelis dancing next to their van theory I think are psychotic idiots, but I still think the actual facts of that story are worth examining. Same goes for the hole-in-the -pentagon compared to the size-of-the-plane-that-hit-it anomaly. I don’t have an emphatic conclusion about any of these things, but I do like to read the presented evidence for myself and run it through my own logic/intuition process. Then I can say to myself “I believe this much of it, because of A, B and C”. Anyone can mock an attention starved babbler, but you didn’t even bother to interview or better yet argue with any of the more serious scholars in this field. Back up your stance.

Taibbi,

The bottom line is that there is a preponderance of very credible scientific evidence that 9/11 was an inside job, soup to nuts. And no amount of half assed name calling on your or anyone else’s part against the 911 Truth Movement will change that.

As for the motivation on the part of the Bush Administration and the Neocons who run it for such an undertaking, you only have to have watched the evening news every night for the last five years; A war in Iraq built on spurious bullshit in the face of every legitimate criticism that has been levelled against it.

Your article is proof positive that the mainstream media in this country is bought and paid for. And if you believe that the administration should escape legitimate scrutiny for what happened on 9/11 (and for everything afterwards)then you should have gone down in the towers that day, and some poor bastard who died should have been allowed to live.

“Obviously you have access to the “whole” video of building 7 collapsing, ”

“Sanity” has no such video. He has only government talking points and spin.

WTC7 is the smoking gun; if it weren’t, you wouldn’t see all the frantic waving away of the questions surrounding it’s “collapse”

“Taibbi, I understand your frustration with some of the conspiracy expounders because they’re just as rash and unpersuasive as you are”

What a sanctimonious way of making anyone who questions this look as bad as Taibbi.

The only “theories” Taibbi floats are the true bullshit theories, which any real advocate for truth has disavowed already.

Taibbi won’t touch the “story” of WTC7 with a barge pole. The minute he does, his diatribe from last week will fall flat on its’ pathetic face.

“it has no bearing on why 9-11 happened. All this, too, is another form of distraction, a way of getting people to focus on the minutea of unproveable details instead of focusing on the important stuff.”

Yes, like the one where your government just trashed Habeas Corpus, the Constitution, AND the Geneva Conventions.

Where’s Taibbi on that, I wonder? Preparing more BS spin, no doubt…

Still waiting on that video.

Curious, too, about that careful editing, since the one that I’ve seen shows the collapse from beginning to end, the only thing I could imagine missing might be a large explosion immediately preceeding the collapse…but I don’t remember reading any reports of such. Fire, then collapse.

The reason that Loose Change is important has nothing to do with controlled demo, NORAD response or lack thereof or missles. It is important because it raises some valid questions. After watching it I then decided to do more research and read the book: 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions by David Ray Griffin. Mr. Taibbi, I strongly urge you to grow a backbone and start asking some difficult questions, for example the India Times reported that the Director of Pakistan Intelligence (ISI) was in Washington DC from Sept. 4, 2001 until well after Sept. 11, 2001. During that time he met with both the State Dept. and the CIA. It was reported that while in Wash. DC on Sept. 9th he contacted Sheikh Saeed and ordered $100,000 transferred to the account of Mohammed Atta. If you read the Kean/Zelikow Report also known as the 9/11 Commission Report it states: There was no link to any foreign state in the planning of the attacks of 9/11. This clearly shows that there was a link but thus far there are no members of the American Media who are willing to look into the link with Pakistan. I believe Pakistan was painted into a corner and was forced into participating in the attacks as a go between. Why don’t you also ask about the fact that the plan to attack Afghanistan was on Bush’s desk before 9/11 because the Taliban refused to allow a pipeline be built through Afghanistan to the Caspian Sea. mr. Taibbi it is easier to make remarks about the truth movement then it is to do your job. PATHETIC!

Oops, it looks like the parsing program doesn’t allow superscript tags.

the footnote is the numeral 7 located just after located just after the first CDT time.

Hmm, that is strange. I posted a link to the video last night, but the post is missing this morning.

It was a youtube link that I found that showed the whole sequence of the collapse rom the first king in the roofline to the failure of the outer walls.

This is rather anoying since I can’t get to that site from work.

Yes, it’s certainly the work of David Ray Griffin that’s of more interest than the Loose Change guys. Nothing against them, but there’s as much innuendo as logical questioning in there.

I’m only interested in what can and can’t be proven.

As I noted, three conventional media sources reported Stewart’s plane was intercepted within minutes. In turn, their source apparently was the Air Force. Could be a legitimate error, could be something else, but it’s hardly fair to judge people for assuming a 3 source report backed by the Air Force is accurate.

Can you address this out of politeness, please?

CAN fighter jets respond to an errant plane in less than an hour and a half? Whether they did in the case of the Stewart plane is actually irrelevent. The question is can they? And if they can, why didn’t they? If they can’t, why the hell not, and under what scenario could such a course be useful?

And as to the video, Sanity, it’s been 2 days, nevermind. Must be that liberal conspiracy censoring the web. (Good thing we don’t believe in conspiracy theories.) I can make one in that time, if you’d like – I could even put Saddam in the picture pushing the plunger, finally explaining why we’re in Iraq.

Next observation…was all that SEC evidence really stored at building seven, and did a lot of SEC cases have to be abandoned because of it?

“It was a youtube link that I found that showed the whole sequence of the collapse rom the first king in the roofline to the failure of the outer walls.”

We’ll wait for you to get home and repost it.

Cheers!

Mark, The media reporters read the official timeline and made the same mistake you did. They didn’t notice, or were too busy to check out what EDY and CDT meant.

It is an error that has been propagated through the magic of the internet.

“Nothing against them, but there’s as much innuendo as logical questioning in there.”

Why not?

That a “Taibbi” and a “Rolling Stone” is giving it exposure should tell you something.

I know very few people putting very much faith in LC. Most thinking folks dismiss the “film” as obvious well-poisoning disinfo…

I’m continually amazed at the Einsteins who think one has to possess a degree in structural engineering, in order to discuss what is obviously a “controlled demolition”.

“Fire” or “falling debris” cannot make a building fall like WTC7 fell. Period. The only thing you need to understand that is a little common sense and a good pair of eyes…

Keep your clips, my friend. Don’t hide them where you won’t be able to find them. Keep them accessible so you can check back every once in while and see how your one tiny example of arrogant, ill-informed condescension fits into the overall scheme of things.

It’s not Dylan Avery’s job to come up with a “detailed narrative” of what happened that day. It’s the government’s job. The government failed. The 911 Report is a whitewash and a fraud.

If the government fails to step up, then it’s the media’s job. The media — of which you are a part — has failed. The media has failed to call the 911 Commission’s bluff, and failed to investigate the numerous holes in the official account of what happened that tragic day.

Many people who care about what this country stands for filled the vacume left by both the government and the media.

No thanks to you, a grassroots movement has proven conclusively what is not possible — the official version of events. As an alleged journalist, quit your whining, do your job and dig for the truth. That’s what real reporters do.

Loose Change was made by amateurs, not professional investigators, and while they bring up valid points, they also speculate like crazy.

Sanity, it’s not just the media that propogated the idea that the Stewart plane was intercepted in a timely manner, it’s the Air Force spokesman, as well. Of course, you’re basing your conclusion on a single source, the accident logs.

Do such accident logs switch time zones on a regular basis in mid-report? It seems somewhat misleading, but again, I’m not a pilot.

Could such confusion be intentional? It was never corrected by government spokesmen.

Of course, neither was the statement “Saddam wouldn’t let the inspectors back in.” Which was flat-out untrue. The trick to a lot of propaganda is just throwing as much conflicting controversial crap against the wall, letting whatever sticks, stick, and shout down the people who point out the inconsistancies, legit and mistaken, as paranoid conspiracy theorists.

Of course, I’m not sleeping any better knowing that the most expensive Air Force in the world can’t scramble planes for intercept in less than 90 minutes to 2 hours.

mellio wrote:
”I’m continually amazed at the Einsteins who think one has to possess a degree in structural engineering, in order to discuss what is obviously a “controlled demolition”.

“Fire” or “falling debris” cannot make a building fall like WTC7 fell. Period. The only thing you need to understand that is a little common sense and a good pair of eyes… “

If you are so smart, Einstein, then please explain to me why they bother to put fireproofing materials on the structural elements of buildings?

Why do hundreds of scientists around the world study the effects of fire on building structures every year?

Why is it that you are so smart, that only you can see what these scientist don’t?

vemrion wrote:
”What the hell are you talking about? Why would the bombs be indestructable? Doesn’t that defeat the purpose?”

Well, how would the bombs on the impact and fire floors survive the shock of the impacts and the heat of the fires? How would the detonators survive?

vemrion wrote:
”And what’s so implausible about remote denotation? Would you rather be in the building like the victims of this heinous terrorist attack? ”

Remote detonators would have to be shielded from stray radio energy, yet they would have to be sensitive enough to pick up the detonation signal. That is a problem for a site like the WTC with radio towers and other sources of interference. That was one of the problems that caused so many firemen to die, their radios did not work well in the building.

vemrion wrote:
”I’m also unclear on why they would have to be scentless (bomb-sniffing dogs were removed from the buildings just before 9/11)”

No, they weren’t. There were a few extra dogs, in the weeks before in response to a bomb threat, but Sirus was still on duty that day.

vemrion wrote:
” or invisible since they would be placed on the steel beams, not on some guy’s desk. ”

Just how would that have been done? How would the perpetrators have accessed the steel beams? What about the asbestos fireproofing on those beams?

Who would have cleaned up the mess, repaired the drywall, repainted the walls, etc?

How come none of the building engineer noticed this work?

vemrion wrote:
”It’s worth noting that there were building-wide power-downs just before 9/11 as well.

That is a claim made by one person that has never been substantiated or confirmed by the hundreds of people that worked there and survived that day and who would have been in a position to know if it happened or not. It is generally considered to be a hoax. 

It’s terrifying to see how insane so many of you are here. A sad commentary on the educational system, that’s for sure.

Pull your heads out of your conspiracy theories, kids. You’re embarrassing yourselves.

Hey Sanity, you genius, you. I am curious about these questions, too. Seems like you haven’t answered them nor anybody else for that matter.
1. where are the video tapes that were confiscated immediately after the pentagon was struck (some say there are around 80 of these)
2. where is the debris from the world trade center buildings so that the steel and concrete can be tested by experts (independent investigations) such as yourself so that the horrible engineering of those buildings can be corrected to ensure that fires lasting an hour don’t bring down 110-storey skyscrapers.
3. Why were crucial testimonies from the 9/11 commission left out of the report (ie. rodriguez, individuals from NORAD and FAAD reporting conflicting chain of events.
4. where are the black boxes from the planes that were reported found days after 9/11 at ground zero
5. where is the passport that was found a couple of blocks away from ground zero unscorched apperantly belonging to one of the hijackers that was on one of the planes that just struck the world trade center
6. why don’t we hear anything about the mastermind of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s, case. He has been in our custody for 3 years and not a peep?????
7. Why is Osama Bin Laden not wanted for 9/11 on FBI’s own website?????
8. Howcome Bush stuttered when asked whether he had prior knowledge on 9/11 and left us with the only response of “there’s time for politics and that’s some sort of insinuation” (it’s like somebody blames you that you killed 3000 people that you were sworn to protect and you don’t get insulted nor mad) see the video for yourself on google, it’s incriminating on its own and it’s the only time I’ve seen the press directly questioning the president about 9/11
9. Which brings the next question: why was he unwilling to testify under oath or in open for the 9/11 commission? This is a leader of a democratic society! He needs to go under oath whenever that is asked from him not run from it like the devil himself. He shouldn’t even need the oath, he should be telling the truth but that’s way too much to ask of a president of US, isn’t it?

I’ll stop there, and I don’t have any theories about how the buildings fell or who did it or anything. I would just like to know an answer by the government to any one of those questions (preferably all) at any time. It’s kind of warranted, dont’ you think? After all, in the most recent poll 40% of Americans believe the government played a role or was at least involved in the coverup. what’s their reply to this? Silence. They dont’ even address it nor does CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC or any other of these socalled media. Oh, and by the way, for research look up Steven Jones from Brigham Young University.

Actually, what’s embarrassing is how quickly debate can be silenced by those who yell “conspiracy theory” and walk away.

Conspiracies exist. The conventional 9-11 theory is about a conspiracy of Islamic fundamentalists. It’s just another conspiracy theory.

And theories are attempts to explain observed phenomena. Naturally, if the observed data is innaccurate, it increases the likelihood that the conclusions will be incorrect.

We are all victims of the data we are told. We are fed information through a filtered system. One person states that there were system wide shut-downs. Sanity replies that it was one unconfirmed account.

Either way, we’re all getting data second or third or fourth hand, and we rely on our sources.

I can’t account for my sources beyond they are what I’ve read, and I read a lot. Sanity makes some claims, fails to source them, but they seem to be cribbed from the Popular Mechanics issue, which suffered from the same flaws as this article – treating all claims as all equally true and of equal value.

So much of the evidence is long gone, and an objective test or re-enactment is not practical…and computer models are only as good as the data put into them.

That’s why I tend to focus on the more political aspects. Why did Pakistan wire money to Atta? Why was invading Afganistan okay when they were harboring Bin Laden, but invading Pakistan is not ok when they’re harboring Bin Laden?

There’s more going on here than we’re being told, and I imagine the neo-cons with their PNAC wanted to reshape the Middle East, and they used this as an excuse. Far from the huge conspiracy some people claim would be neccessary, all you’d need was a good talker infiltrating Al Qaeda to influence them toward such an attack…and given the tendancy of the terrorists to hang out in Vegas and strip clubs, I have to wonder…

“If you are so smart, Einstein, then please explain to me why they bother to put fireproofing materials on the structural elements of buildings”

Hey, set that strawman up, genius. “Fireproofing” has nothing to do with “controlled demolitions”, so there is no need to explain any such thing.

In order for “fire” to have brought down WTC7 as the government alleges, all main supports would have had to give way at the exact same time.

“Fire” does not burn uniformly–and “falling debris” does not fall “uniformly”. Quit shilling for BushCo long enough to get hold of yourself, genius. When you do, you’ll surely exit the discussion, because you are buried so far it astonishes me that you can still breathe…

1. where are the video tapes that were confiscated immediately after the pentagon was struck (some say there are around 80 of these)

How do you know it was 80? How do you know that they show anything pertinent? The gas station tape was released and you know what is shows? The gas pumps, just what you’d expect a gas station security tape to show.

2. where is the debris from the world trade center buildings so that the steel and concrete can be tested by experts (independent investigations) such as yourself so that the horrible engineering of those buildings can be corrected to ensure that fires lasting an hour don’t bring down 110-storey skyscrapers.

NIST has samples of the steel and materials. What part of the design do you claim was “horrible engineering?”

Who has ever claimed that fires alone brought down the buildings. ASAIK every engineer that has studied the collapses has come to the conclusion hat it was a combination of the impact damage and the fires.

3. Why were crucial testimonies from the 9/11 commission left out of the report (ie. rodriguez, individuals from NORAD and FAAD reporting conflicting chain of events.

What part of Rodriguez’s testimony would you consider valid? The statement that he made on the afternoon of 9/11 when he stated that he heard a “rumble like someone dragging furniture? Or the later statements after he started being paid to talk about 9/11 when he claimed that he heard two explosions and that the second one was the plane hitting the building because that was “what someone told him?”

As for the NORAD and FAA timelines, frankly who cares. All that is, is some ass-covering going on. Sure it was a problem, but it doesn’t prove anything other then the Peter Principle.

4. where are the black boxes from the planes that were reported found days after 9/11 at ground zero

Where is your proof that they were found, or is this just another unsubstantiated rumor?

5. where is the passport that was found a couple of blocks away from ground zero unscorched apperantly belonging to one of the hijackers that was on one of the planes that just struck the world trade center

I don’t know. Why is that important to you? If he had his passport in his pocket, and he was in the front of the plane, there certainly is the probability that the flight cabin passed all the way through the building. I’m sure it is an evidence locker somewhere.

6. why don’t we hear anything about the mastermind of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s, case. He has been in our custody for 3 years and not a peep?????

And that is not a good idea? You don’t want to be inspiring anyone do you?

7. Why is Osama Bin Laden not wanted for 9/11 on FBI’s own website?????

Was Hitler listed as a wanted man by the FBI during WWII?

8. Howcome Bush stuttered when asked whether he had prior knowledge on 9/11 and left us with the only response of “there’s time for politics and that’s some sort of insinuation” (it’s like somebody blames you that you killed 3000 people that you were sworn to protect and you don’t get insulted nor mad) see the video for yourself on google, it’s incriminating on its own and it’s the only time I’ve seen the press directly questioning the president about 9/11

WTF are you babbling about? You are as hard to understand as Bush sometimes.

9. Which brings the next question: why was he unwilling to testify under oath or in open for the 9/11 commission? This is a leader of a democratic society! He needs to go under oath whenever that is asked from him not run from it like the devil himself. He shouldn’t even need the oath, he should be telling the truth but that’s way too much to ask of a president of US, isn’t it?

Politics. Why else? :rolleyes:

Oh, and by the way, for research look up Steven Jones from Brigham Young University.

You mean “formerly” of BYU, don’t you?

Oh right, he’s just on paid leave for now, till they figure out what to do with him. And for those of you who think that there is some kind of cover-up involved in his being placed on leave, remember, BYU has fired a number of professors over the years for doing stupid stuff.

“NIST has samples of the steel and materials”

Cite, please. Also, please cite the section of NIST’s “report” on WTC7, and explain why the “9/11 Whitewash”, er, “Commission Report” doesn’t seem to want to delve too deeply into the subject of WTC7.

Quit running around in circles, Einstein. You’re just starting to look desperate.

Here’s how the story changed over time:

Chris Wise, UK structural engineer, said to the BBC the columns would have melted, the floors would have melted and eventually they would have collapsed one on top of each other.

Scientific American had an article:
Eduardo Kausel proposed an alternative failure explanation that he acknowledged was independently developed by Zdenek Bazant, a professor at Northwestern University. “I believe that the intense heat softened or melted the structural elements — floor trusses and columns — so that they became like chewing gum, and that was enough to trigger the collapse,” he said.

Once it was determined steel would not melt at the temperatures of burning jet fuel, we get this:

Dr. Shyam Sunder, Chief of the NIST Materials and Construction Systems Division, has stated:

Now, several of you have heard about or thought about the fact that the jet fuel would have burned, caused the building to burn, and probably think the jet fuel played the sole role in the fires. The jet fuel acted much like a matchstick. It was something that spread throughout the building in those affected floors and caused ignition of the fires. But the jet fuel itself burnt in a matter of minutes, within less than ten minutes. So what burned over the next hour, or hour and a half, was really the contents of the buildings, the everyday contents of the buildings. — Transcript of NIST Public Meeting in New York City — February 12, 2004

So we are expected to believe that burning “rugs, curtains, furniture and paper” can produce temperatures of 1100°F

But from Kevin Ryan, site manager from Environmental Health Laboratories, we get:

The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up … Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building’s steel core to “soften and buckle.” Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that “most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C.” … If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers.

So, Sanity, these are quotes from structural engineers and other scientists, attempting to explain how the towers fell, tossing off one reason and then another once science has proven the first theory wrong. How can you expect laymen to not get confused?

The buildings collapsed because of the jet fuel, which does not reach temps hot enought to melt the steel, just weaken it, except the fuel burned only about ten minutes, but it set the other materials on fire, which can’t even generate enough heat to weaken steel, especially burning for less than an hour…

Are you seriously suggesting there are no contradictions inherent here?

mellio wrote:
”Hey, set that strawman up, genius. “Fireproofing” has nothing to do with “controlled demolitions”, so there is no need to explain any such thing.”

So, you are not willing to engage in any discussion of any possibilities other than the one that you have unilaterally decided is right.

For what it’s worth are you strictly talking about WTC 7 or are mixing 1 and 2 in with this closed minded viewpoint?

mellio wrote:
”In order for “fire” to have brought down WTC7 as the government alleges, all main supports would have had to give way at the exact same time.”

Why? Did you look at that clip that I found on Youtube? Clearly the supports under the east penthouse failed several seconds before the supports under the west penthouse did. That isn’t exactly what I would call the “exact same time.” After that, the remaining structure was too badly compromised to stand on its own.

mellio wrote:
”“Fire” does not burn uniformly–and “falling debris” does not fall “uniformly”. “

Did the building collapse uniformly, or did portions of it fail before other parts did (i.e. the penthouses)?

So, according the author of this article, the idea that U.S. politicians sitting around brainstorming a plan to attack their own country is so preposterous, that all so-called 9-11 truth seekers are nuts.

I wonder what the conversations sounded like when our leaders developed their campaigns to convince the american public there were WMD in Iraq…

And that’s just one lie the Bush administration worked hard to sell to the American public. They conceived the lie, developed a sophisticated plan to sell the lie, then executed a major media campaign to distribute the lie as fact.

Before we knew that the WMD evidence was a fabrication, imaging our leaders sitting around and making it up would’ve seemed pretty crazy.

The logic that it’s preposterous to imagine a thing happening, therefore it simply couldn’t have happened is rather naive, i believe. Especially for a journalist.

Uh, Sanity…you keep referring to this clip…and you keep making excuses for why it isn’t there…

What clip? Where? And how does the penthouses collapsing first rule out controlled demolition?

Will you address any of my other points, or do you just pick and choose what you will respond to? Or it it just what’s covered in the Popular Science article?

You have yet to refer to a source for anything…

Um…that’s your proof?

That’s your “oh, they edited it for nefarious purposes” proof?

Okay. Looks to me like the small buildings on the roof collapsed first, with apparently the floor in the center collapsing seconds before, and then immediately the entire building collapsed on it’s own footprint.

If anything, to me it looks even more like a controlled fall…

But I’m sure you’re right. It sure is great to know that there’s really no need for the exacting science of controlled demolition anymore, since apparently buildings collapse on their own footprints by themselves. I do worry about the poor bastards who spent years learning the fine art, only to discover any random hit by an airplane or fire could replace them.

Yeah, most of that I’ve read up on, also, don’t forget the FBI agent in charge of Al Qaeda feels investigations frustrated by his own government, protests, gets hit with charges of improperly taking a briefcase, he drops his protest, quits, and the charges are dropped. He takes a job in security at the WTC and dies in his first days on the job.

These are the things that should be paid attention to, not pods or missiles or holes in buildings.

The strongest arguement for the 9/11 truth movement is the administrations lack of honest address. As our leader it is the presidents job to reassure us our concerns are being addressed. 9/11
was a fraud, any conspiracy took place long before. The designation
“conspiracy” is a conspiracy in itself.For something so many thinks so little of, so much more
likely than one in three, is the way it looks to me. The greatest crime is not in what they`ve done,
it will be in that they got away
with. My self I`d like a little more reassureance than I`m getting,which isn`t any. Now I have to deal with my republican
house and senate members here in the fifth district of Louisiana, and their values, you know like not reporting Foley. At this point it looks to me like all the extreme rights involvede in one giant conspiracy. And about half the damn lefts involved also, don`t worry I know their all crooks and liars. I believe the dead deserve a better answer than they gave us for them, to die for nothing then have it covered up with lies, is this all the American people deserve from their self appointed saviours?
Are do they have more planned for us that we deserve, even more. Now if you think this is just some conspiracy nut case rant thats cool, cause it may be. But what if the conspiracy`s are true?
Who can the American people depend on to tell them the truth?
How about RS that would be cool with me.

Me thinks you are a blind and/or useful idot. So, 9/11 is not plausible since Bush is idiot??

Dumb downed entertainment-such as your rag-have led majority to idiocy.

I have a 4 yr degree in Criminal Justice, 4.5 yrs of LEO experience and PI background.

Wake up, be a force for good instead of Liberal Useful Idiot for Bush, snkicket, but that is what you are!!

catholicresistence.bl ogspot.com
defeatneocons.blog spot.com

John Chance Wrote:

”I have a 4 yr degree in Criminal Justice, 4.5 yrs of LEO experience and PI background.”

That’s nice and all that, but what experience do you have in how buildings are designed, constructed, and managed? Do you understand how the hat truss in the WTC towers worked? Do you know what part of the tower structural design provided lateral resistance (i.e. wind bracing).

How hot can a typical structure fire get? What about a post flashover fire?

What is the difference between heat and temperature?

How much heat is released by the combustion of a gallon of jet A fuel?

Does changing the initial temperature of the reactants (fuel and air) have an effect on the temperature of the combustion products?

How much diesel fuel was stored in above ground fuel tanks at WTC 7?

How much was stored in underground fuel tanks?

How much was recovered from the wreckage?

How long can a composite-truss floor, like the ones used in the construction of the towers, withstand the heat from a typical (standard) fire if it has no fireproofing on it? (Failure being measured at the point that the truss begins to buckle and sag).

Who installed the fireproofing in the towers and why did John Goti have him killed?

What caused large areas of fireproofing to constantly fall off the structural steel in the WTC towers?

How much does a 50-ton shop press weigh?

Why doesn’t the pentagon automatically shoot down any plane that gets within a half mile of it?

Oh, and for “You’re a Genius”

Please explain the reduction in the critical buckling load value of the exterior columns if the internal floors started to sag.

What would be the reduction in the critical load if one floor was no longer providing lateral resistance to movement? How about two adjacent floors? Three?

I’ll give you a hint, this is a Euler’s law problem and it has to do with an inverse square law.

alright tough guy, how about you tell me what happend to the core of the buildings?? also, a collpase will not launch materials weighing over a ton, 600 feet from the buildings. you wanna get into science, explain the basic physics of it. you’ll find in your explanation that you’ve painted yourself into a corner that smells of your own bullshit. don’t wanna sound harsh, but come on man.. you can’t be that ignorant

ALSO! The speed of the collapse will reduce!!!!!! not remain consistent!!!! you sound like a smart guy, this shouldn’t be THAT hard for you to figure out

most of the fuel from the tank exploded in a large fireball outside the building. The fires inside the building on the 78th floor were practically out as is heard on the firefighters radio transmissions that were at that floor. Also, there are photographs of people standing in the very wholes through which the planes came through. Surely, people burn up and die at lower temperatures than would take for an entire steel framed building to collapse. As far as engineering goes, I am sure that you, too, can admit that damage to one side of the building results in an uneven fall of the demolished structure (if it causes a fall at all), not a straight down, symmetrical collapse into the footprint of the structure. Oh, and by the way, you are a jackass. Nobody has to prove anything about the alternative theories, the governments have to show us that 19 hijackers under the orders from a man in a cave, planned out the hijackings with boxcutters and carried out this flawlessly executed mission. YOU PROVE IT TO ME BEFORE YOU KILL A 100000 people who have done nothing to you, you murdering scumbag!!!!!

Matt,

I greatly appreciate the independence of mind you’ve shown in so many of your columns, but in this case you have been knocking down straw men. I agree that the acknowledge sins of the current administration should be more than enough to drive it and its party enablers from office without having to bring in evidence of a deeper conspiracy. Unfortunately, that deeper evidence is abundant and compelling. You’re own visceral reaction to the notion of a 911 conspiracy, however, demonstrates the profound emotional revulsion most of us feel at the very notion our own countrymen could have been complicit with such a crime. That such things have happened before (albeit ona lesser level) is now a proven fact of history (e.g. American complicity with the Israeli attack on the U.S.S. Liberty during the Yom Kippur War). You need to study some of he more serious resources here, Matt. I’d start with Nafeez Ahmed’s excellent The War On Truth: 911, Disinformation, and the Anatomy of Terrorism. I’d then read David Ray Griffin’s analysis of the 911 commission report and view “911 Mysteries” online.

Matt,
Your writing is fun and breezy, in a brilliantly glib adolescent manner, but here you are kicking straw dogs. More studied and serious people have actually weigned the evidence. By now you have learned that senior members of the administration were given the starkest warning of an impending al-Qaeda attack only two months before 911, only to ignoe them. Ask yourself how this fact could possibly have eluded the 911 commission. Or why commission members now are protesting they felt they were being lied to by the military when the latter was testifying about the failures of our air defense. Now that you’ve begun to developat least a little skepticism about the official conspiracy theory, it’s time to start your real education. Start by reading Nafeez Ahmed’s excellent The War On Truth: 911, Disinformation, and the Anatomy of Terrorism. Ahmed is no amateur. He runs a UK thinktank and his previous book on the subject won Italy’s prestigious Naples Award. Your caustic critique of the so-called 911 truth movement does highlight it’s biggest problem though: most of us simply cannot allow ourselves to believe that members of our own government could have willingly murdered several thousand people. Well, they have, Matt. Welcome to the Dark Time!

Redness wrote:
”most of the fuel from the tank exploded in a large fireball outside the building. “

Can you quantify “most?” How many gallons are you claiming went out the building? How much fuel was in the planes anyways?

Certainly the fuel in the wing tanks which struck the core area and fell down the shafts didn’t explode outside the building? What happened to the liquid fuel that soaked into the fireproofing, ceiling tiles carpets and other absorbent materials?

What about all of the other combustible parts of the plane? The upholstery, the plastic cabin parts, the oxygen generators, etc?

What about all of the office equipment, furniture, paper, etc?

Redness wrote:
”The fires inside the building on the 78th floor were practically out as is heard on the firefighters radio transmissions that were at that floor.“

No, they didn’t say that. They reported fires on those floors. What about the floors above that? What do you think would happen to the hot, sagging floor trusses when they cooled down?

BTW, have you forgotten about the radio transmission from Frank A. DeMartini? Well before the collapse, he warned the the elevators in the core were in danger of imminent collapse.

Redness wrote:
” Also, there are photographs of people standing in the very wholes through which the planes came through. Surely, people burn up and die at lower temperatures than would take for an entire steel framed building to collapse. “

People? Or just one person? When was that photo take? According to the NIST reports, it was well before the north tower fell. Besides, the worst fire damage was occurring on the south side of WTC 1, not near the impact hole. Check out the NIST report and the photographs of the south face of the tower buckling inward a few minutes before the collapse.

Redness wrote:
”As far as engineering goes, I am sure that you, too, can admit that damage to one side of the building results in an uneven fall of the demolished structure (if it causes a fall at all), not a straight down, symmetrical collapse into the footprint of the structure. “

The structural failure would have propagated around the whole building. That is what happens when the load paths shift and fail.

Redness wrote:
”Oh, and by the way, you are a jackass. “

And I love you too.

Redness wrote:
”Nobody has to prove anything about the alternative theories, the governments have to show us that 19 hijackers under the orders from a man in a cave, planned out the hijackings with boxcutters and carried out this flawlessly executed mission. YOU PROVE IT TO ME BEFORE YOU KILL A 100000 people who have done nothing to you, you murdering scumbag!!!!! “

Er, yeah, whatever. Don’t forget to take your meds.

“You’re a Genius” Wrote:

”ALSO! The speed of the collapse will reduce!!!!!! not remain consistent!!!! you sound like a smart guy, this shouldn’t be THAT hard for you to figure out “

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

As Bugs Bunny would say: ”What a maroon!”

Sanity, instead if insulting people,demanding engineering degrees, and phrasing hypotheticals in the form of a test, why not just answer the questions? According to the NIST report, the fuel burned for less than 10 minutes, temperatures were sustained at 500 degrees, the steel was rated to withstand 1000 degree temperatures for several hours before buckling.

So the towers collapsed.

Please explain. Don’t insult, don’t demand my physics degree, don’t put it in theform of a physics test.

First it was the steel melted – but it couldn’t unless you hit some 2500 degrees. Then it’s well, steel loses it’s strength at 1000 degrees. Okay, but for what length of time to soften the tons of steel in the WTC? Ten minutes? Because after 10 minutes, according to the NIST report, the fuel was burned out. After that, you simply had conventional material, which, again according to NIST, never got much hotter than 500 degrees. Can that many tons of steel lose that much integrity in a sustained burn of less than an hour? An hour and a half? I’m asking, because that’s what has been proposed.

And your poll quote is nothing more than an ad hominem attack, and intellectually dishonest.

People are looking for answers, we’ve seen contradictions and evasiveness from this administration, as well as outright falsehoods. Instead of just saying “It just HAPPENED that way, and unless you have a degree in building design physics, you won’t understand and I’m going to mock you instead of answering you.” you might try enlightening and educating us. I’m sure there’s a few tricks in CGI I could teach you, but I don’t feel it neccessary to lord my experience and expertise over you. If you ask me how they did King Kong, I’ll tell you, I won’t mock you and demand you take a course in computer generated imagery.

Damnit, I hate the format of this place.

Sorry about the f’ed up html tag.

mellio quotes me, then offers his comment

“Taibbi, I understand your frustration with some of the conspiracy expounders because they’re just as rash and unpersuasive as you are”

What a sanctimonious way of making anyone who questions this look as bad as Taibbi.

mellio, I said “some” of the conspiracy expounders, then you sanctimoniously interpreted it as though I said “anyone”. So you either distorted what I said or you just didn’t care what I said just so long as you could pout and convulse like a spasmodic fishwife. You would drop the 9/11 Truth movement in a second if it hampered your ability to screech and nag. If you’re going to quote others, do it accurately. Otherwise it makes you look rash and unpersuasive.

Okay, so you disagree with the NIST report on the length of time the fuel burned.

Based on what evidence? Your theory may or may not be correct, the NIST seems to disagree with you, but I should believe you because…? You mean people with education and expertise in an area can disagree? Does that make one of them a paranoid conspiracy theorist? Because you’re accusing people whho disagree with the NIST findings of being such…

Cutting & pasting from my previous post:

Dr. Shyam Sunder, Chief of the NIST Materials and Construction Systems Division, has stated:

Now, several of you have heard about or thought about the fact that the jet fuel would have burned, caused the building to burn, and probably think the jet fuel played the sole role in the fires. The jet fuel acted much like a matchstick. It was something that spread throughout the building in those affected floors and caused ignition of the fires. But the jet fuel itself burnt in a matter of minutes, within less than ten minutes. So what burned over the next hour, or hour and a half, was really the contents of the buildings, the everyday contents of the buildings. — Transcript of NIST Public Meeting in New York City — February 12, 2004

But from Kevin Ryan, site manager from Environmental Health Laboratories, we get:

The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up … Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building’s steel core to “soften and buckle.” Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that “most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C.” … If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers.

End quote.

BTW, I’ve been consistantly dealing in Farenheit.

And to answer your question, I would think that while gravity would accelerate the mass, the mass of building in between the ground and the collapsed portion of the building would also have an effect.

I would also hesitate to think that 200,000 tons of steel could be heated to 1100 degrees F throughout by the fuel involved, (and I mean both the jet fuel and the combustibles in the building)but I could be wrong.

If you understand the work of Sir Issac Newton and have seen video of the towers falling; you will have questions about the Official Conspiracy Theory (the one that Matt believes?). Matt evidently needs to keep hacking to keep getting those checks.

If you were following my question about the Euler equation for the critical buckling load, you would realize that the temperature of the columns was immaterial, The critical issue was the floor trusses. When the floors sagged, they pulled on the columns they were attached to. this caused the exterior columns to bow inward, thus causing them to lose their load bearing ability. The loads transferred to the other undamaged perimeter columns and the undamaged core columns until these too, reached their failure point.

It is just that simple.

Furthermore, nowhere in the NIST report do they state that no exterior panels or core columns saw temperatures above 250 C.

You state:

“I would also hesitate to think that 200,000 tons of steel could be heated to 1100 degrees F throughout by the fuel involved, (and I mean both the jet fuel and the combustibles in the building)but I could be wrong.
“

The point is: It was only necessary to heat the relatively thin truss sections. The thickest parts of the trusses were the 1” diameter diagonal rods.

Jesus Christ, what a bunch of awful drivel…what kind of dumb beast actually hands out money to print this fucking garbage?

What would the retards of this country do without Matt Taibbi’s self-serving bullshit splayed out over the increasingly ignored and irrelevant pages of Rolling Stone?

Yes, Matt, you shall keep us safe from all of those poor bastards who have the audacity to question the government’s official fairy tale. Thank Jesus for that. And more than that, you’ll insult them, and conveniently ignore various aspects of the argument that expose your idiotic babble for what it is – the last thing some fucking preteen kid glances at as he sits on the toilet. No one gives a fuck what you have to say, and it’s easy to see why, since you essentially have nothing of value, merit, or sense to utter. What a fucking waste of paper.

So your conclusions differ from the NIST report…

I guess that makes you, too, a raving lunatic.

Incidently, from what I’ve read, the NIST report doesn’t actually cover or explain the collapse, only the events leading up to it.

I do not know the Euler equations you speak of, anymore than you know what an illegal surface normal is in phong shading, but your mention is the first I’ve heard.

I’m curious as to what your sources and or expertise is, I’ve asked several times.

Suffice to say, I’ve wasted enough time on this, neither one of us shall convince the other. I may even look up your equation and see if that answers anything.

You will find, though, that the Underwriter’s Laboratories – who certified the steel in the WTC – heartily disagree with the conclusions of the NIST, and that originally, in the August 2003 NIST report “ruled out weak steel as a contributing factor of the colapse.” Apparently the steel was rated ASTM E119, whatever that means.

So the original report from the experts was that the steel melted (Dr. Hyman Brown)then that it was heated enough to buckle, then not really heated enough to buckle, and now you say that the heat of the columns don’t matter, because the floor trusses sank, bending the columns inward so that they would no long support the weight.

SO I count at least three different explanations in there, all from sources supporting the conventional conspiracy theory about religious fanatics. (You are aware that some months ago the FBI announced it actually had no conclusive evidence that 9-11 had anything to do with Bin Ladin. Which sort of explains why we started dropping bombs when the Taliban offered to turn over Bin Ladin once we showed them our proof.)

No wonder people get suspicious. The first explanation was proven to be false, so we get thrown another…and another…pretty soon we’re all quoting experts at each other, trying to get to the truth.

But, like I wrote yesterday, it’s good to know we no longer have to worry about the fine art of demolition to make a building collapse into its own footprint.

Another example of how stupid the American Media are. They think their job is to echo the party line. If the Pentagon says it, we print it.

National Affairs should just publish op-ed pieces from Rumsfeld and Cheney instead of this nobody.

taibbi, another blind dumbfuck. rolling stone has now joined the growing ranks of irrelevent publications.

Mark,

you stated:

ou will find, though, that the Underwriter’s Laboratories – who certified the steel in the WTC – heartily disagree with the conclusions of the NIST, and that originally, in the August 2003 NIST report “ruled out weak steel as a contributing factor of the colapse.” Apparently the steel was rated ASTM E119, whatever that means.

Note that the collapse scenario presented by NIST has nothing to do with “weak steel.”

The long span of the truss design is the ultimate problem here. The strength of that design would have been weaked by the fires. The steel was full strength before the fires, weakened afterwards.

Who applied the fireproofing to the towers and why was he found dead in the garage of WTC 2 full of bullet holes?

Illegal fuel tank? Down load the pdf files on FEMAs website, scrote. They admit to not knowing why it collapsed in on its own footprint. Apparentley it … JUST DID.

People who are dismissing the 9/11 truth have ulterior motives. For them, it is a war for Israel.
But should we fight that war?

Sanity –

So you have your own little John Gotti conspiracy thing going on.

Mildly amusing, but notice that it’s not covered in the MSM very much…

And that’s our whole complaint. The MSM picks and chooses what’s worth reporting.

How can we know what happened when we only get limited information, that information changes and conflicts, – oh what the hell, we’ll never know the truth, forget about it, go back to watching American Idol, go back to sleep, America.

Cheers, it’s been fun.

At what point did you abandon your journalistic, moral, and intellectual integrity?

“nice paper debunking the pentagon missile defense theory.”

That’s nice–except it’s a waste of space. No serious truth-er I know thinks that “no plane hit the pentagon”

A plane hit the pentagon. If it didn’t, then WHERE DID IT GO? It didn’t fly away again.

The “no plane hit the pentagon” crap is well-poisoning gubmint BULLSHIT.

We’re way, way ahead of ya, sport. Let us know when you catch on…

Mr. Taibbi,

You’re article contains many good points regarding the documentary “Loose Change” and the 9-11 Truth Movement in general. Nobody in this country loves 9-11 Truth arguments, based on the physical evidence, than the neocons because they control the physical evidence. The arguments regarding the truth of 9-11 will absolutely never be believed so long as they are premised on physical evidence arguments because the physical evidence has been and will continue to be manipulated by the neocons. You challenge anyone to step forward with a plausible scenario to explain the motives and rationale for 9-11 and seem to argue that such a plausible scenario fails to exist. I’m hear to tell you your challenge has already been accepted. There is one coherent narrative out there that convincingly details both the motives and methods for ensuring success on 9-11, namely the book “Crossing the Rubicon” authored by Mike Ruppert. Ruppert lays out the facts of his painstaking research and presents an absolute airtight case for the truth of 9-11, naming the main players and offering more than plausible explanations why not hundreds or thousands of people would have to be in on a conspiracy of this magnitude (as your article suggests). Instead, Ruppert plausibly explains how a few well placed individuals inside the US government ensured the success of the attacks on the WTC and pentagon on 9-11. He presents an airtight case regarding the principals, chief among them being Dick Cheney, in charge of the apparatus on 9-11 that guaranteed success. The book relies on no physical evidence of the WTC or Pentagon to make it’s case, because that evidence is not necessary to know the how and why of what happened. This book is the 2nd or 3rd best selling book on 9-11 and has been added to the Harvard library yet has received absolutely no mainstream media attention or any attack whatsoever on the facts presented therein for that matter. Gee, wonder why?

At any rate, I challenge you to read this book and again report to your reading audience about 9-11 Truth in light of Ruppert’s research. I am a regular reader of your column and find you to be a fairly progressive voice in a sea of mindless and dangerous mainstream propaganda. If I’m right, I would imagine you’d investigate this book, and would hope that you’d share your insights with your readers. I’ve seen a few comments in this forum labeling you a neo-liberal gatekeeper for this article. I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that charge based on your work to date. However, should you ignore “Rubicon,” the most thoroughly researched and pluasible analysis of 9-11 out there, I might be more inclined to agree with the “gatekeeper” argument. Do yourself and your readers a favor and check out and comment on “Crossing the Rubicon.”

Redness wrote: “Sanity, you scumbag.”

It’s not nice to insult sanity. I won’t be your freind any more.

Mark wrote:

“So you have your own little John Gotti conspiracy thing going on.”

No, but it helps to understand the conditions under which the buildings were constructed, and why the fireproofing was subpar.

god you are pathetic..

Y’all have left out Karl Rove, he’s the only one in this group of idiots that’s running our country with enough sense to plan a family vacation.

Hey, just wanted to let you know I also find those 9/11 “truth” people pretty damn stupid as well and that I enjoy your writing. It’s an honor to have my stuff in the same publication as your’s, even if you think we’re “the dirtiest kind of scum” and “a charmless, unconscionable, unkillable pain in the ass of all decent humanity.” Later.

All Tabbai has to do is read the 9/11 Commission Report itself to realize that something in the official version of the events does not add up. There are descriptions of occurences that don’t even follow the simplest laws of physics.

It’s time Rolling Stone hired a reporter to cover this story.
Start with the 9/11 Families who lost loved ones like the Jersey Girls.
Taibbi is out of his league.

Wow, insanity spreads quickly on the internet.

I have, as an engineer, read all the pathetic theories on why the tower collapse was a lie. I find it amazing that a bunch of people can believe this nonsense. Physically impossible? Try obviously likely.

The ‘9/11 truth movement’ loves to complain about how the MSM ignores them, or gives them bad coverage. Like every other Yeti or UFO expert out there. People can’t bend spoons with their mind, bigfoot is a myth, Nessie hasn’t been in the lake for a hundred million years, and WTC 7 collapsed because of fires and very unusual building construction.

Of course obviously all the structural engineers are in on the conspiracy, because none of them have ever said the towers were collapsed with thermite, or explosives, or dozens of well placed concrete eating woodchucks (as likely as anything else the conspiracy nutjobs have posited).

Matt – this article has a definite Fox-Newsish flavor. You’re not jockeying for a job there, are you?

Guy wrote:

“All Tabbai has to do is read the 9/11 Commission Report itself to realize that something in the official version of the events does not add up. There are descriptions of occurences that don’t even follow the simplest laws of physics.”

Such as?

Please provide DETAILS, Thank you.

Double Z Wrote:

“The book relies on no physical evidence of the WTC or Pentagon to make it’s case, because that evidence is not necessary to know the how and why of what happened.”

So this is a faith based movement, then?

It’s like a cult, is that what you are saying?

Certainly many of the people espousing this theory seem to lack a basic understanding of how science works, so that would make some sense.

Melio wrote:

“That’s nice–except it’s a waste of space. No serious truth-er I know thinks that “no plane hit the pentagon”

What is the difference between a “serious truth-er” and a moonbat?

Even the people that wrote the commisson don’t believe.

Is an investigation of a crime to be dismissed simply because evidence is still being gathered? Because questions are still being asked on the way to piecing together what really happened? Should we stop asking questions , because we are still gathering evidence? That is the pathetic logic of the rolling stone writer, and it shows what low regard the Rolling Stone has for the intellect of its readers.

And his reason #1 for dismissing 911 truth seeking is that, essentially, seeking truth on 911 is not currently politically expedient to getting democrats elected. Like the worst of those in power, he dismisses truth-seeking unless it is supportive of a political agenda.

WAKE UP, READERS OF ROLLING STONE….THE RS WRITERS LOOK DOWN ON YOU…..PLEASE PLEASE WAKE UP!! STOP READING THE PATHETIC RAG!!!!

Sanity is a dis-info agent. That much is clear. How much do they pay you guy? What agency? CIA, FBI, DHS?

C’mon. Don’t be shy. They would have to pay me well to do what you do, because if you are American, you go to work everyday and commit treason. Treason is death penalty, you know.

Maybe you are an Israeli…. Mossad controls DHS….

What is the difference between a “serious truth-er” and a moonbat?

Ah, yes, now that some of us don’t fit into your little “black vs. white” box, you resort to general insults, eh, obvious-shill-for-hire?

A “serious truth-er” does not believe the planted crap about “9/11 holograms, blue screens” or “no plane hit the pentagon”.

I believe that was explained once, but if you need a map drawn for you, perhaps you’re in over your head out here after all…

“Taibbi is out of his league”

Oh, that’s obvious…

“When you can’t argue with the facts, you attack the person pointing out the obvious”

You mean like pointing out that it’s obvious you’re a shill-for-hire?

Look, darlin’, we’ve put facts out for you here, and you have steadfastly ignored them, repeatedly. So take your column, your faux-indignation and your circular arguments, and stick ‘em where the sun don’t shine…

perhaps everyone needs to sit down, relax, and share a nice warm cup of ajax. seriously…get a life and let the people who lost theirs rest in peace.

“seriously…get a life”

Seriously–I imagine those souls who died won’t “rest in peace” until their untimely deaths are determined to not have been because of LIES.

“Alarum”

“I have, as an engineer, read all the pathetic theories on why the tower collapse was a lie”

Sure you have, that’s why your “post” is so “specific”, LOL!

we at least deserve a credible investigation.

The short list of conspiracy theories that sane people find objectionable:

1) Geronimo was really a renegade U.S. Army officer (yes people really believed that one);

2) Piltdown man is a real fossil;

3) The Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor (or was that Churchill and FDR?) ;

4) A UFO crashed at Rowell NM;

5) Jews use the blood of non-Jews to make holiday foods;

6) The Apollo landings were faked;

7) JFK was shot by anyone other than Lee Harvey Oswald

It was all a dream and no one shot J.R.;

9) Crop Circles are created by aliens and not by bored college students;

10) HAARP can steer hurricanes;

11) “tachamarks ” on the back of road signs are there to help guide invading NATO forces;

12) Chemtrails are real;

13) You can get Aids/V.D. from a toilet seat (crabs, maybe )

14) Drinking water fluoridation is a communist plot;

15) Microwave towers are really mind control devices;

16) Baseball Playoffs are rigged for the maximum television profit;

17) Aliens mutilate cattle;

18) 9/11 was a government hoax.

Sanity,
Why do feel that you have to point out why everyone is wrong? If you thought everyone was a stupid as you say then why do you stay on here all day responding to people’s posts?

hey (in)sanity, rather than “proving” that i’m wrong, why don’t you prove that you are right. (cue korans and flight manuals). Show me the proof it was bin laden. the burden of proof is on you.

“Sanity” once again vomits strawmen and the official “toady” line. Putting aside the fact that the first 17 points are irrelevant to 9/11, no one is saying “9/11 is a hoax”.

The assertion being driven home–successfully, it would appear, since the pointless defenses spewing from his browser continue–is that the “9/11 official story is a LIE”.

Big difference. Whatsamatter, Taibbi, does all the well-deserved criticism of your scathing, error-riddled, sophist hit-piece hurt your wittle feewings?

Tough…

Who is citizen X? The bush administration claims he doesn’t exist while it desperately tries to find and kill him. Michael moore says he is irresponsible and dangerous. Noam chomsky claims he is a crypto fascist. Bill O’reilly says he should be hunted down and sent to Guantanamo.
Who is citizen X?The communist party has called him a frivolus anarchist and a bourgisie sentemntalist. John Zerzan calls hima fascist corporate stooge. Robert Anton wilson claims he is a fictional creation under which dozens perhaps hundreds of people express their views. Alex jones calls him a dangerous occultist agent who may be on our side for all that.
Who is citizen X? The anti defamation league call him the most dangerous nazi in america today. Al jazeera claim he is a mossad agen. The American psychiatric asscociation call him the most dangerous crank since L Ron Hubbard. The scientologists are not allowed to read or mention him in any way but send anonymous letters claiming he is a former mental patient with schizophrenic tendencies. Tucker Carlson claims he is a high level FSB agent (the new kgb) Vladimir Putin says he is the most obvious Cia plant since Osama bin laden. Hakim bey calls him to buy weed.
Who is citizen X?Spike lee claims he is a spoiled white college student. The KKK claims he is a crzy nigger. Paul wolfowitz claims he’s a chineese spy. The minutemen claim he is the most ungrateful illegal alien from El Salvador they have ever seen and have sent search teams to find and deport his ass back some place where he will no longer be able to type his filthy insults upon his adopted country. Hillary clinton claims he’s a red neck militia man. CNN said he met with Al qeda. Fox news claim he is a rogue Iraqi inteligence agent.
Who is citizen X Some feminists claim he is the most sexist pig since Henry Miller, while other feminists claim she is mereley a middle aged woman with a son in iraq. Pat Robertson has it on good authority that citizen X is a high ranking female witch who may be linked to up to 100 ritual killings. Jack Van Impe believes Citizen X is here to clear the way for the Antichrist. Jerry fallwell claims he is the most notorius male prostitute in san francisco. Ellen degeneress claims he’s a homophobe. Paris hilton says he’s a drunken asshole with no fashion sense.
Who is citizen X Hunter S. Thompson once said that partying with citzen X one weekend was enough to make him consider quitting drugs. Frank miller claims he is a millionaire playboy. Al gore says that He is citizen X. New york times gossip columns claim it is gore vidal instead. Warren Elllis once said citizen X was hitlers brain which had somehow developed the ability to contact the internet but he was probably joking.
Who is citizen X I am and so are You.
If you like this post it somewhere else if you don’t don’t.

I am citizen X and I don’t like labels, yet all of this amuses me for I’m an artist a philosopher a god.I am a lone nut yet I’m always the sanest one in the room.Like whitman I am everyone and no one.
I am talking to you because I love you we need love but love is not all we need. We need hate and curiosity recklessness and caution we need a hundred just women but one would be enough to change the world. Even a man one would do.
We need courage, we need wisdom we need minds like scalpels we need to be as cold blooded as snakes and as pasionate as a shakespeare charachter. We need a sense of history of reverence and we need to learn new contempt.

at the very least, most people accept there are flaws in the official report into 911. your ‘hilarious’ article only helps further obscure any hope that the true facts will be understood. it may shock you but you do not know everything!

“Sanity” once again vomits strawmen and the official “toady” line. Putting aside the fact that the first 17 points are irrelevant to 9/11, no one is saying “9/11 is a hoax”.

Suddenly, a very long-winded individual drops by. What a coinky-dink…just when Taibbi needed a diversion the most. LOL!

Too bad, Taibbi-anyone that matters has already read your pathetic hit piece and denounced it for the sophist tripe that it really is….

Do you really exist? I thought people weren’t allowed to think for themselves anymore. It’s such a shame that comment after comment on your articles reflects an overwhelming amount of ignorance. It’s almost as if people want to believe the conspiracy theories are true just so they can ignore the very real danger the outside world poses to us. I don’t love Bush. Believe me. But that doesn’t make me lose my mind looking for ways to make him responsible for a tragedy brought on by people who despise Americans. Those who’ve gobbled down the conspiracy theories just give other nations (not just Islmanic militants, but even our “friends” in other countries) yet another reason to belive that the American empire can’t last much longer. Whe can blame them?

“It’s such a shame that comment after comment on your articles reflects an overwhelming amount of ignorance”

Please be more specific as to what you find to be “ignorant”.

If you’re looking at Taibbi’s examples, no wonder you’re angry. His examples are not held as anything other than water-muddying flapdoodle by any American who knows that the “official 9/11 conspiracy theory” postulated by George W Bush and Company is complete and utter nonsense.

He knows it, too. He just can’t stand it that the majority of posters out here aren’t buying his sophist claptrap.

["water-muddying flapdoodle?"
Even though I disagree... that was a fun way to put it.]

I’m not “angry” as you say. More disappointed than anything. But my question, then, is… if you think the explaination of 9/11 as presented by Bush isn’t true (and perhaps it isn’t, entirely…all things are flawed…), do you still think such theories that Loose Change and others are presenting are more easily realistic? You must admit, Taibbi brings up some vaild points. And, yes, he puts them in sarcastic fashion, often. But I think Loose Change et. al. make poor cases as well. (To compare pros and cons would require an article of my own, I suppose.)

Addtionally, and this is truly in all seriousness, thank you for not coming at me in a “fuck you” fashion, nit-picking at stupid things (I spelled “who with an E”), just because I have a differing opinion. (I’m very much a lover of Voltaire.) I don’t think the Loose Change guys should be burned at the stake… I just choose not to believe them. Maybe you think this is ignorant of ME… but I digress. The best thing about this country (and I think most people can agree on this) is the spread of ideas through all sorts of different media. Some of it isn’t pretty, but sometimes you just have to take the “good” with the “bad” if you ever want to learn anything.

Nope … Lester Bangs wrote for Creem magazine.

No, sorry, the thread isn’t about Lester Bangs, but to clarify: he wrote for Creem, the Village Voice, and Rolling Stone, among others. Yes, he really did.

Is it so much to ask to have an investigation of 9-11 that doesn’t start with the conclusion and work backwards?

Is it “hopeless stupidity” to seek alternative explanations to a government explanation that doesn’t make sense?

Is it so hard to believe that a massive lie can be perpetrated when the media reports unquestioningly whatever the government says?

Is it possible that powerful clandestine interests are capable of carrying out a massive psyop with only a wink and a nod from elected leaders?”

Is it conceivable that one-third of the American public is not hopelessly stupid, but knows a rat when they smell one?

Is it too much to ask that Rolling Stone investigate deeply into the “official explanation” rather than insulting their readership and resorting to name-calling?

Apparently it is.

So, how many of the 25%ers here saw South Park’s “Mystery of the Urinal Deuce?”

Uh oh, sanity…

Down to 16% of Americans buy the government’s story on 9-11.

Now, that doesn’t mean they believe in aliens, remote controlled airplanes or anything like that, so don’t bring up those strawmen. They just believe the government is lying and covering up the truth.

Seems you’re not very convincing…I’d brush up on your rhetorical skills…

What a horribly biased poll.

These are your choices:

“Telling the truth”

“Hiding something”

“Mostly lying”

“Not sure”

Do you notice the negative slant there?

The 28% still coressponds to the 1 in 4 are retards.

Fully half of all Americans are below average in inteligence.

Sanity, You still haven’t answered my question.

Hey man, just find out the answer
to this one question and I will be
satisfied that 9/11 was not an inside job: Who authorized pulling
the bomb sniffing dogs from the twin towers one week before 9/11?
You know, the dogs that had been
there since the first bombing in 1993? I will even give you the name
of the company that supplied security for the towers: Securacom
Need a contact name? Ask for Marvin
Bush, you know- the President’s
brother. So- your all set. Get
back to me as soon as you can.

This was a very funny and well-written article, but I think that you oversimplify the 9/11 truth movement. The film makers like the Loose Change crew and others (Alex Jones, etc.) have a goal, which is to make people aware of the most glaring problems with the government’s official story. Conspiracy or not, the 9/11 Commission Report simply does not match the physical evidence, not to mention that it is wholly incomplete.

There is, however, another sect of the 9/11 truth movement that does indeed focus on the “who, how, why, etc.” side of the story. They do hypothesize as to what happened. Webster Tarpley, Michael Ruppert, etc. This is a much more difficult area to pinpoint though. It is this area of the movement that, in my opinion, further illustrates through its complexity that there must have been a conspiracy of some sort. Look at all of the connections, coincidences, and money trails, and you will see that this is more than just a random series of events stemming from bad luck. It is at this point that a 5 year old would laugh and say that there is no way it is simply a coincidence that these events happened, these people were involved, these people profited, and the direction that this country has gone in since 9/11.

Don’t skip over the WHOLE 9/11 truth movement just by focusing on the videos which are designed to include more people in on this search for truth. That type of journalism would be the real joke.

The anger over this topic results from frustration, and nothing more. The 911 Truth movement is frustrated that their claims will never be verified outside their own circles (imagine Bush on trial in this country for treason, conspiracy, etc. or reading a “Bush, Cheney, indicted for 911″ in the NYT) and those who doubt the conspiracy are frustrated that they can’t refute every little detail or anomaly. Guys, this one’s a perpectual stalemate (see JFK assasination).

You dont believe that 19 terrorists were able to hijack planes and crash them into the towers, but you believe that BUSH has the intelect to hush up thousands of people? How many of the thousands of people in the plot have leaked info about it?

The conspiracy theorists have their act more tightly together than you, friend. I can only assume that you are a product of underfunded public schools with no background in science or reason. I don’t understand how you hold down a job as a writer for Rolling Stone; your shallow, tepid and absurd style qualifies you for the Bush Library opening on the Isle of Elba across the street from Napoleon’s.

If you take away the events of 9-11 completely, this administrations has NOTHING. So every tidbit of news and drop of spilled ink about the war, the debt, the pedophiles does nothing but obscure the truth of the 9-11 events. Which is that the President’s party attacked the U.S. and terrified its people because they have NOTHING to offer us other than madness and paranoia. The Republicans have always had NOTHING to offer and as a political flash in the pan they will continue to be NOTHING but stale vapor.

Tell you what, Matt — you’re out of your league here. I’ll tell you what stupid is. Stupid is spending five years believing this horse manure without ever asking yourself some basic questions.

Why has the government never been able to provide one frame of video showing any one of those Arabs at those airports on 9/11, much less boarding the planes?

Why did the head of the FBI admit before the end of September, 2001 that they didn’t have a clue as to the “hijackers,” after a number of them turned up alive?

Why has not one corpse of any of the alleged 266 people on those planes ever been recovered from any of the four crash sites and identified?

Why has a woman named Ellen Mariani, who was told that her husband died on Flight 175, been unable in five years to locate one relative of any of the 64 other people claimed to have been on that flight?

Why did the Secret Service make no attempt to take Bush’s ass out of that school, after he admits that he was told that the country was under attack, when his wherabouts were public knowledge, and he was in a highly vulnerable location? Why did they allow him to spend another thirty minutes in that school, where he proceeded to read a PREVIOUSLY PREPARED SPEECH?

Why is it that after they left, they didn’t deviate one iota from their PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED DEPARTURE ROUTE?

Why did Air Force One take off without a military escort, FIFTY-FIVE MINUTES after Bush admits that he was told that the country was under attack?

The whole story is a lie, Matt and you’re the one that’s bugf*** stupid.

I didn’t read all of your article, but I think you miss the real point of all this. The bottom line is that Nature (including human nature)abhors a vacuum. It is obvious to anyone who’s been paying attention that the Bush administration has been prevaricating and obfuscating from day one, and when they were forced to accept a 9/11 commission, they made sure they got people on there that would help hide the truth. That much is established fact. You couldn’t ask for a better environment to encourage wild speculation and fantastic conspiracy theories. What you should do is find a way to help push for some responsible entity with teeth to expose more of the truth about 9/11 and thereby let some of the air out of the wacko contingent.

I’ve always been somewhat against conspiracy theories, since the people that promote them are generally a bit loony, but I have to admit the information out there about 9/11 is intriguing. However, it’s important that you know where the information is coming from and how reliable the source is. There are several conspiracy groups out there, all of which include extremely intelligent and knowledgable experts as well as crackpots.

Personally, no one theory I’ve seen far has really seemed to hit the mark – there are flaws in all of them. Does that mean they’ve failed to make a case for conspiracy or at least complicity? Not really. The 9/11 Commission didn’t adequately prove their case either, but it’s been widely accepted as fact. I believe the truth is ultimately going to be found as a mixture of the 9/11 Commission Report and various independent “conspiracy” studies.

The fact that this is an issue at all points out a disturbing reality. We’re really no closer to the truth today then we were five years ago. Our best opportunity to discover it will only come when the government allows a non-partisan investigation to occur. That will only happen years from now, when the effects of this administration have finally worn off and some semblance of fairness has returned to our government.

Nice try but no cigar.

9/11 was an inside job.

Open your eyes man!

Building 7 was a demolition job.

Building 7 is the elephant in the living room.

“imagine Bush on trial in this country for treason, conspiracy, etc”

If the shoe fits…

“The holes left by 9/11 conspiracy theorists are just as ludicrous and important as the holes left by the 9/11 Commission”

Let us know when you’re ready to talk turkey about WTC7, sport…

A majority of the American people believe Bush admin either was implicated in 911 or had something to hide. This article leaves out WTC7 as do most of the more ferocious conspiracy attacks.
A more interesting and thought provoking article might be WHY people believe them.
But I think the writer just wants more email…..

“This article leaves out WTC7 as do most of the more ferocious conspiracy attacks.”

Of course it does. Why do you think people BELIEVE there is a coverup?

WTC7 is, as has been repeatedly pointed out now, the “smoking gun” here. BushCo won’t touch it, because it CAN’T. The whole house of cards would come tumbling down, and they know it…

Who do you think you’re kidding Matt? If you seriously believe that there is no RELEVANT middle ground between your grandiose comic book version & the “oops, gosh-darn-it, no one could have predicted this” official version – then you are a prime example of those you describe as thus…….

“they’re insular movements that construct their own reality by cherry-picking the evidence they like from the vast information marketplace, violently disbelieve in the humanity of those outside their ranks, and lavishly praise their own movement mediocrities as great thinkers and achievers.”

If you are not one of them, then you are most certainly trying to exploit them with your insulting, garbled pretense of debunking the possibility of neo-con complicity in 911. Sorry, but life is quite a bit more complex than you are trying to portray it. And then you tell on yourself again ……

“People are longing for a smaller, stupider reality”

Really? LOL

Mr. Taibbi,
Your glib conclusion that, “It may be that America has become too big and complicated for most people to deal with being part of. People are longing for a smaller, stupider reality” pretty much sounds like the self involved pretension of alot of pseudo-alternative music intellectuals circa early 90’s at many urban colleges and mudhoney/Sonic Youth shows. Save your pithy, clever entirely empty, pop-pyschological generalizations for you and your friends when you try and recreate that early 90’s
“political awareness”. You’re a fool. An accurate appraisal of the conspiracy crowd should at least go beyond the tactical theories of planes, demolition, etc. Check out a guy by the name of Dave Emory or the website Rigorous Intuition in order to develop a larger context in order to understand the current political takeover. The learning curve in this sort of research is steep; don’t give up yet Taibbi, oh yea you can’t give up you obviously haven’t even started.

“Sanity, You still haven’t answered my question.”

Don’t hold your breath. It’ll never happen, because he’s as chickenshit as the author of the article…

If you want to challenge them, then really do it, don’t write 4 pages of bs for publication and not challenge any of the points the make, this is exactly why people think you are a douche man, can’t you figure it out. They main arguement is fires could not of gotten hot enough in the short time these towers burned to weaken the steel structure. Tell us about the steel

Well, lets see. It’s been over
a week now since I first asked Matt to find out the answer to a
very simple question I had con-cerning the events of 9/11.Re: Who
authorized the total power down
and the pulling of the bomb sniffing dogs at the twin towers
the week before 9/11. If you saw
the post you will recall I also gave Matt the name of the company,
Securacom, who had the contract for
overall security in the complex and a contact name at Securacom, a
gentleman by the name of Marvin Bush (Dubya’s brother). I did all
the leg work, all Matt had to do was pick up the phone and call.
Evidently, this was beyond his
journalistic capabilities. So Matt,
I’m just gonna have to call it like
I see it. Your a fucking fraud.
And to all the other dimwits who belive that fairy tale of the “official” story, smarten the fuck up already!!

“Sanity, You still haven’t answered my question.”

Don’t hold your breath. It’ll never happen, because he’s as chickenshit as the author of the article…

What question, fuckface?

“Who authorized the total power down”

Where is your verified proof that this actually happened? One anecdotal account is not proof. In fact, that account is so full of holes that it is ludicrous.

“and the pulling of the bomb sniffing dogs at the twin towers the week before 9/11. “

The only dogs that were “Pulled” (OMG THE DOGS DID IT. ) were some extra ones that were only there for a short time in response to a phoned in bomb threat. Sirus was on duty that day. He died in the attack.

“If you saw the post you will recall I also gave Matt the name of the company, Securacom, who had the contract for overall security in the complex and a contact name at Securacom, a gentleman by the name of Marvin Bush (Dubya’s brother).”

Bush left that company a year before 9/11, so he could hardly be a contact, now could he?

I won’t entirely rule out the idea that Bush et al conspired with Al Qaeda to hijack the planes, though I think it unlikely.

Pretty much everything else is, as Matt describes, bunk – either that, or part of a misinformation campaign to distract attention from the one real, simpler possibility.

I *have* heard (via a friend of the wife of an executive at one of the airlines involved) that investigators found weapons taped under the seats of at least one more airliner that was grounded that day, which suggests that the hijackers were part of a larger conspiracy (with other terrorists) than has been officially acknowledged, but *if* that account is true, it still would not mean anything more than that the government wants to keep up the illusion of airport security – which we already know, anyhow, as airport security is a joke.

All in all, a good article.

RE: Sanity “What evidence do you
have that there was a total power
down in the twin towers?” Well, I’ll give three names: Scott Forbes
IT specialist who worked on the 97th floor, Ben Fountain, who worked for a securitys firm in tower one, and William Rodriguez,
who was in charge of the maintenance crews for the towers and was one of the very few people
who had keys to every office on every floor in the towers , all stated that there was an “unprecedented total power down
of the towers the WEEKEND before 9/11.” As far as the bomb sniffing dogs are concerned I never stated that the dogs were not allowed back into the towers after the power down, but you have to ask yourself, why would they be pulled
out of the towers at all and for any length of time when the towers
had already been bombed once in
1993? Marvin Bush did leave Securacom in 2000, but did anyone really expect him to stick around
and get caught holding the bag?
Oh yeah..one more tidbit of info
regarding Securacom..Do you know
the date of the last official day
that Securacom held the contract
to provide security for the towers?
September 10th 2001. What a co-wink-e-dink! Ya know, we spent $46
million trying to find out if Pres.
Clinton (whom I never voted for) got a blow job, and less than $1
million investigating the greatest
attack and the largest intelligence
failure in the history of the United States. Any other questions
Hannity? Oops..I meant Sanity?

As far as the steel in the towers
is concerned: Go to Home Depot, buy
a kerosene space heater, take it
home and fill it up with kerosene,
(which for all intents and purposes
is the same as jet fuel and burns
at the same tempature: 1300 degrees) fire that sucker up and let it crank for oh..lets say a
month or so. Now, after a month goes by and your kerosene space
heater HAS NOT melted into a puddle
on the floor, you will realize that
if kerosene can’t burn hot enough
to melt the thin metal cylinder its
contained in , there is no fucking
way it can burn hot enough to have ANY EFFECT WHATSOEVER on 4 inch
thick forged steel I-beams. Sleep
tight America!

Blue Knight wrote:
“As far as the steel in the towers is concerned: Go to Home Depot, buy a kerosene space heater, take it home and fill it up with kerosene, (which for all intents and purposes is the same as jet fuel and burns at the same tempature: 1300 degrees) fire that sucker up and let it crank for oh..lets say a month or so. Now, after a month goes by and your kerosene space heater HAS NOT melted into a puddle on the floor, you will realize that if kerosene can’t burn hot enough to melt the thin metal cylinder its contained in , there is no fucking way it can burn hot enough to have ANY EFFECT WHATSOEVER on 4 inch thick forged steel I-beams. Sleep tight America!

Another brainless moron heard from.

1) A space heater is designed specifically to dissipate heat, so your comparison is rather a stupid one.

2) kerosene and jet fuel fires can produce temperatures well in excess of 1300 F. It is all a matter of the temperature of the starting materials, the fuel and the oxygen. If those materials are preheated by, let’s say a raging full floor fire, then the resulting combustion temperatures will be that much hotter.

3) No one, but no one (except for a few morons like yourself), has ever claimed that the collapses were initiated by the “Melting” of the steel. Steel looses significant amounts of strength well before the melting point is reached. At 1100 degrees F, (less than your example above) the strength of steel is reduced to about 50 % of it’s cold strength.

3) WTF are you talking about “4 inch thick forged steel I-beams?” The key to the structural integrity of the building was the floor trusses. These were very thin pieces of steel. Once these heated up and began to sag, they pulled in on the exterior columns. At this point the building was doomed. It is a simple structural principle known as Euler’s law.

WOW, How did I miss this incredibly stupid post:

Big M wrote:

“Why has not one corpse of any of the alleged 266 people on those planes ever been recovered from any of the four crash sites and identified?”

This is why people laugh at 911 conspiracy theorist, because they are a bunch of dimwits.

To all of the people that think there is something significant in the collapse of WTC 7, let me ask you one question:

What happened to the 12,000 gallons of diesel fuel that was located in the Solomon Smith Barney underground storage tanks under the loading dock?

Do some research into that question, maybe you will learn something. (But I doubt it.)

“Sanity”: “What happened to the 12,000 gallons of diesel fuel that was located in the Solomon Smith Barney underground storage tanks under the loading dock?”

The existence of this tank did not make WTC7, a 47-story skyscraper that was not hit by any planes or debris in any sort of uniform fashion, collapse the way it did.

Sorry, but you’re going to have to proffer something else besides yet another pathetic, moronic, feeble bullshit strawman.

Do yourself a favor and let it go. You’re way out of your league here…

Sanity, You’re so full of shit and you know it, you fucking asshole.

Sanity: “What question, fuckface?”

Aww, are your wittle feewings hurt because precious few people have bought into your obvious bullshit?

Go back and read the thread, “Sanity”
, because it’s beyond obvious that you’ve skipped over any of the multitude of questions you’ve been asked, that your precious government cover-up can’t spin away. It shows.

Real investigative reporters have backbones of steel–it’s obvious that you’re a hack of the highest order, and a losing hack, at that…

I do believe that I answered all the questions that a sane person can answer.

If you have anonther, please ask it.

”Sanity, You’re so full of shit and you know it, you fucking asshole. “

OOHHHH . . . . I’m scared of your devastating logic and debating style.

”The existence of this tank did not make WTC7, a 47-story skyscraper that was not hit by any planes or debris in any sort of uniform fashion, collapse the way it did.”

It seams like your knowledge of the events of that day and what happened to WTC 7 as well as the details of the construction of the building are a bit lacking. No wonder you believe the bullshit fed to you by people trying to sell conspiracy videos and books. You are the perfect patsy.

This is a much more realistic and viable explanation than “bush did it.” But then again, logic and science are not the strong points in a conspiracy theory.

”Sorry, but you’re going to have to proffer something else besides yet another pathetic, moronic, feeble bullshit strawman. “

Logic, science and engineering are only “strawmen” to the willfully ignorant.

”Do yourself a favor and let it go. You’re way out of your league here… “

Don’t put yourself down so much. Hopefully you can learn from some of the information I have provided you. Maybe someday you will earn your GED.

“It seams like your knowledge of the events of that day and what happened to WTC 7 as well as the details of the construction of the building are a bit lacking.”

It seems like the week or so it took you to write that bullshit scenario of yours is what’s lacking.

“Fire”, “falling debris” OR “the existence of various and sundry tanks in certain areas of WTC7 did not make for a symmetrical collapse.

Nothing makes for a symmetrical building collapse on the order of the collapse of WTC7 but well-placed explosives.

You can dress up your attitude with five more miles of flapdoodle if you want, Taibbi–no matter how much you want it to be true, WTC7 didn’t fall for the reasons you theorize.

Which makes you a “conspiracy theorist”, too, did I forget to mention that?

I see a patsy here, sweetcheeks, but it ain’t me…

“I do believe that I answered all the questions that a sane person can answer”

I suspected you were insane–official mouthpieces of traitorous governments usually are–but you just confirmed it. Nice job…

RE: Sanity “Kerosene and jet fuel
can produce temperatures well in excess of 1300 degree’s” Oh really?
Well..let me school ya. The MAXIMUM
temperature of a hydrocarbon fire
burning in the atmosphere without
pressurization is 1517 degree’s.
Steel melts at 2750 degree’s.
But hey, thats only a difference of
1233 degree’s or so. You also stated that the floor trusses would
lose “half” of their strength at
1300 degree’s, the trusses would fail, and the floors would pancake
and collapse.This is possible. But
there is one HUGE hole in that
theory and it is this: If the floors did in fact pancake the 47 massive columns, some 8 inches thick, that were anchored
in the bedrock 4 stories below
street level and ran 110 stories
to the top of the towers would have
remained standing.The collapse of the floors themselves would have
had little if any impact on the
main columns. And if fire itself
brought down the towers why didn’t
they collapse from the fire in 1976
that destroyed 6 floors of one tower and burned unchecked for 12
hours, about 12 times longer than
the fires on 9/11? Ya know, the other day I was reading on Drudge
that the Pentagon is spending
$1 billion of are hard earned tax
dollars for military personal to
log onto blogs like these and
repudiate all the crazy 9/11
theories. Hannity ..I mean Sanity,
are you sitting at a console at
CENTCOM tapping out your little
missives? Hey! If you see Air Force
General Richard Meyers tell him I
said hello! You know who Richard
Meyers is dont you? He was the guy
who made damn sure not ONE fighter
got off the ground before the planes hit their targets.And what
happened to Gen. Meyers ,who presided over the biggest defense
failure in the history of the United States? Why they made him
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
course! Sleep Tight America!

Blue Knight Wrote:

“RE: Sanity “Kerosene and jet fuel
can produce temperatures well in excess of 1300 degree’s” Oh really?
Well..let me school ya. The MAXIMUM
temperature of a hydrocarbon fire
burning in the atmosphere without
pressurization is 1517 degree’s.
Steel melts at 2750 degree’s.
But hey, thats only a difference of
1233 degree’s or so.”

The maximum temperature of 1517 degrees is based on the reactants (ie. The fuel and the oxygen, for you non-science types out there) being at 20 C. If the temperatures of these reactants is elevated (Why? Maybe because there is a huge fire burning on the floor already), then the temperatures of the combustion products will be elevated also.

Once again, the 9/11 truther stumbles over the concepts of heat and temperature. (they are not the same thing). Furthermore, No one is claiming that the steel melted, except you. The steel would have been softened to the point where all it’s strength was lost well before it melted.

Blue Knight Wrote:

“You also stated that the floor trusses would
lose “half” of their strength at
1300 degree’s, the trusses would fail, and the floors would pancake
and collapse.This is possible. But
there is one HUGE hole in that
theory and it is this: If the floors did in fact pancake the 47 massive columns, some 8 inches thick, that were anchored
in the bedrock 4 stories below
street level and ran 110 stories
to the top of the towers would have
remained standing.The collapse of the floors themselves would have
had little if any impact on the
main columns.”

Again, you show your failure to grasp basic concepts of engineering. The floors provided an important structural function for the core columns. They provided the lateral resistance to buckling. Without the floor slabs in place, the core columns would have been susceptible to buckling under their own weight, which is exactly what they did.

Do yourself a favor, google the term “Euler Buckling Formula” and brush up on the significance and implications of inverse square laws before you attempt to discuss this any further.

Blue Knight Wrote:

“And if fire itself
brought down the towers why didn’t
they collapse from the fire in 1976
that destroyed 6 floors of one tower and burned unchecked for 12
hours, about 12 times longer than
the fires on 9/11?”

BWAAA HAAA HAAA HAAA HAAA

Only a portion of the 11th floor was destroyed, the fire burned into an improperly firestopped electrical chase and the insulation on the wires in that chase and in that chase alone burned up and down to other floors for three hours before they finally put them all out. They put out the fire on 11 well before that. And yes, repairs had to be made to the floor trusses on 11.

Sanity- You still haven’t answered my one simple question.

because it’s fun. You make yourselves into such easy targets

mellio wrote:
Sorry, but “common sense” does not need an engineering degree. You continue to display an appalling lack of same by continuing to insist that one of your now-three-different-causes of WTC7 collapse could cause all support columns in the structure to give way simultaneously. It’s impossible.

You seem to be under the impression that the entire building fell simultaneously, starting all the exact same time. This is a common mistake that is perpetrated by a number of conspiracy sites out there.

Why is that?

RE: Sanity I noticed you did not respond to my suggestion that you
may be part of a psyops campaign,
or the fact that General Myers, who allowed a complete standdown of our homeland security forces while he was
in charge of NORAD on 9/11, and was
still promoted to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs in the wake of 9/11.
Whats the matter? Are you afraid
of losing your military pension??
Able Danger was tracking Mohammed
Atta a year before 9/11, yet he was
allowed to go about his business.
Who stopped the investigation and why? This had to be done at the
highest levels of the Government.
But hey..someone has to be the
patsy for the Bush crime family.

Sanity I noticed you did not respond to my suggestion that you
may be part of a psyops campaign,

Because I knew it would just feed your paranoia.

“You seem to be under the impression that the entire building fell simultaneously, starting all the exact same time. This is a common mistake that is perpetrated ”

Bullshit. Watch it collapse, patsy…

whatreallyhappened .com/wtc7.html

“Take a close look at the manner in which WTC 7 collapses straight down. For the building to collapse in this fashion, all of the load bearing supports would have had to fail at exactly the same time.”

The only Americans left that appear to be under any “mistaken impressions” are the ones that still believe the “US Government Fairy-tale” about what happened on 9/11/01.

Fortunately, you’re now in the minority. Look no further than these blog entries. You’re the only one still stupid enough to be out here, defending BushCo.

As if there’s any defense left…

RE: (In)Sanity
I’m not paranoid Dr. Hannity,
I’m fucking pissed off that the
country I love is being run by
a bunch of fucking criminals!
So, whats the deal? Your protocol’s
of cyber pys-ops dont allow you to
tell us what your true function
on this blog is? We banterd back
and forth about the fire in the towers, but the fact is the only way to prove or disprove any related thoery would be to rebuild
the towers, fly planes into them
and see what happens next. The
N.I.S.T has the capability to
computer model the event, but they
have choose NOT to do it. I guess
their worried they may not get the
same result as 9/11. I also noticed
that you refused to comment on the
action (or nonaction actually) of
Gen. Richard Myers and his failure
of command at NORAD on 9/11. I know
he’s retired now, with full pension
no doubt. You guys getting in a
little golf these days? In one of
your post’s you said that you had
answered all the questions a sane
person could possibly answer. Oh
really? Well I’ve got alist of 200
more for you! You ready to take me
on boy?

Great list, Sanity. As someone who has Asperger’s Syndrome, I would add the Thimerosal Coverup to your list. It’s another issue where the debate is driven by pure emotionality rather than by reason.

The hole in the pentagon was too small.
If it does not fit, the theory is s**t.

The only way the official theory could be true requires a supernatural explanation.

“it’s another issue where the debate is driven by pure emotionality rather than by reason”

Sorry, but that’s patronizing bullshit at best. This debate is driven by the need to seek out the truth. “The Truth” that you’ve been told about 9/11 is a story that’s chock full of holes.

If you can’t see that, I’m sorry for you. Open your eyes, maybe you’ll get it someday…

Still dont belive that the towers
were brought down by explosives?
Then why does Dubya say they were??
Go to Rense.com and here the President say in his own words that
“explosives were to be placed high
enough in the buildings so that the
people above the explosion could’nt
escape”. That’s a fucking qoute
people! But dont take my word for it, go to Rense.com and listen to
it for yourself.

Matt–Your mock planning session between Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld asks two good questions: why go to the trouble of planting explosives in the Twin Towers, and why was a missile used at the Pentagon rather than just using a plane. Both questions have good answers.

“Shock and Awe” is the first. Pyroclastic mushroom clouds chasing people down streets, and so much better than ruined half-hulks needing expensive asbestos abatement. Adding a couple of hundred dead firemen adds a blue-collar “Everyman” component, heros not just victims, helpful for emotional identification.

Hitting the Pentagon was essential for making Americans truly feel vulnerable and afraid enough to write the blank check Bush squandered. A missile was used so it could burrow in sidewise, primarily into the first floor, both to minimize collateral damage, and to intentionally target the Navy Command Center. But since I don’t know exactly what that intention was, you can ridicule and dismiss everything I say. The fourth “failed” plane adds to the “coordinated attack” angle and to a “plausibility ploy” that not every plane succeeded.

Taibbi? Is that Jewish? I have to be an anti-Semite to think this way. Your hostle ridiculing tone of voice indicts you, means your not one of us innocents who 9-11 surprised and altered, your one of “them,” whatever that is. One side is going to go to jai–and the gallows–and damnit, it’s not going to be me or the people who think like me, not if I have anything to say about it. You should really watch what you say more carefully Matt. You’re way behind the times.

RE: Tonio
I’t really burns my ass when
people make blanket statements like
yours. The last thing I’m feeling
is “afraid and powerless”! On the
contrary, I’m ready to take these
fuckers on! We need to wake up and
realize whats at stake here, and
its nothing less than a death
struggle for the heart and soul
of this country. I reside in New
England, where this country was born and where we used to hang
traitors like the slime behind
9/11. If you cant handle it, go
hide under the bed so the fake
muslim boogeyman cant get you
and let the people who still have
some backbone take out the trash!

“I’ve had a few personal experiences with conspiracy theorists, and I was repulsed by their messianic fervor.”

That’s because you went in with a bad attitude, not willing to listen. Sorry, but it is obvious that you’re trying to paint truth-seekers in an unflattering light, whether you “meant” to be “patronizing” or not.

You’re seeing “fervor” because these people are sick and tired of being ridiculed (and worse) for merely pointing out things that should be patently obvious by now. There are holes in the ‘official story’ the size of Mt. Rushmore, and the sooner you admit this, the better off we’ll all be.

I’ve seen the video, and although they make numerous insinuations I don’t remember them making any direct allegations. They simply pose reasonable questions that they want answered. I think we as U.S. citizens have a most definite right to know the answers to these reasonable questions.

And to you Matt, I personally think your article was a bit premature, or rather immature. Lets not make any outlandish associations but rather stick to the questions presented. Is it so absurd to demand answers.

you say this:
“I challenge a 9/11 Truth leader like Loose Change writer Dylan Avery to come up with a detailed, complete summary of the alleged plot — not the bits and pieces, but the whole story, put together — that would not make any fifth grader anywhere burst out in convulsive laughter. And without that, all the rest of it is bosh and bunkum”

In response I say read the book The New Pearl Harbour by David Ray Griffin. He analyses the official 9/11 theory in minute detail, and it is clear that we are being told a pack of lies by the government. The whole true story can only be told by those that were involved, but what can be done by the rest of us is to nail the lies of the Bush administration – and if you read this book you’ll see David Ray Griffin has done just that

I don’t think Griffin does much better than Loose change when it come to presenting a sensible and in any way provable narrative regarding the events of 9/11. His book is perhaps not quite as corny, but it still lacks the consistency, common sense, and factuality that are necessary for any scientific theory to be considered legitimate.

It seems to be mostly a collection of loosely bound long ago debunked rumors that he picked up while web surfing.

Griffin apparently lacks the ability to discern between legitimate science and information, and the electronic cousin of a supermarket tabloid newspaper.

Its idiotic sites like this that will be the death of us all if you dont think that radical Isreal is a real threat to the whole world you truly live in a liberal bubble where Bush is this evil dictator that wants to rule the world and you need to remember when they Nuke us just as many liberals will be killed as conservatives

Instead of arguing – let’s set up a court to put these claims on trial. What would either side be afraid of? I can understand why a guilty party would avoid such a trial. Again, what is anybody afraid of?

Also Taibibi, There wouldn’t have to be thousands of people in on the conspiracy. Bush wouldn’t even have to be in on it. Your imaginary conversation between Rummy,Cheney and Bush is a tangent. There studies that less than a score of people could of have pulled this off. With many accomplices being unwitting. Bush included. Historical example: The Manhattan Project.
What’s really missing whenever I hear MSM take this on is MATURITY. And a willingness to investigate the complexity implied.
SO what if the repubs get 5 votes per mention. We want to know the truth if the truth is not the official story. Or we would like the official story to be independently verified. Why is that so intimidating? It really shouldn’t be.

With respect and kindness,
Mike

Oh Geez

I didn’t post the “oh geez” comment. Not sure who did; but, they’re pretty lame.

Matt: why would you mock people? not everything the “truth movement” says is right. why do you think NONE of it is right? can you honestly say that it is impossible for the government to have been complicit in the attacks? im not talking about bombs and missiles. you think it could never happen that the government would do something like that? if you read about the history of american intervention in countries around the world, you would find that the US has committed terrorism, sabotage and assassinations against other nations. what would stop them from doing it here?

the argument that its impossible to keep something that big a secret doesnt really work here. all they have to do is label the truth a “conspiracy theory” and people ignore it. see how easy that is?

Until open-minded and intelligent people are in the position that matt is, we are going in circles. Matt you are a dumbass. Do YOUR research pal. The history of govt. sponsored terrorism is for anyone willing to take the time to look it up. Oh, ofcourse your NOT going to find an alternate theory of the events of 9-11. BECAUSE NO ONE KNOWS. WE ARE CALLING FOR AN INDEPENDENT 9-11 Investigation, not one with conflicts of interest across the board. I have 0 respect for you now, puppet.

“Griffin apparently lacks the ability to discern between legitimate science and information, and the electronic cousin of a supermarket tabloid newspaper.”

So does Matt Taibbi, apparently. Holding any idiot swearing a plane didn’t hit the Pentagon, as an example of “truth seekers”, is your first clue.

A plane hit the Pentagon, Taibbi. Perhaps you should research the websites that call that crap what it is–well-poisoning BS, designed to discredit EVERYONE searching for ‘the truth’.

I suggest you start with the link posted earlier in this thread from whatreallyhappened.com. If you want RS to continue being held up as an example of “real investigative journalism”, you’ll set up an interview with Mike Rivero tomorrow, and you’ll check your prejudices at the door before the tape starts rolling. Otherwise, you’re just another government-shilling hack.

“Griffin apparently lacks the ability to discern between legitimate science and information, and the electronic cousin of a supermarket tabloid newspaper.”

So does Matt Taibbi, apparently. Holding any idiot swearing a plane didn’t hit the Pentagon, as an example of “truth seekers”, is your first clue.

A plane hit the Pentagon, Taibbi. Perhaps you should research the websites that call that crap what it is–well-poisoning BS, designed to discredit EVERYONE searching for ‘the truth’.

I suggest you start with the link posted earlier in this thread from whatreallyhappened.com. If you want RS to continue being held up as an example of “real investigative journalism”, you’ll set up an interview with Mike Rivero tomorrow, and you’ll check your prejudices at the door before the tape starts rolling. Otherwise, you’re just another government-shilling hack.

jonny121

Tiabbi, you are a hack journalist with absolutely NO integrity….. Why don’t you try to objectively investigate the 9/11 report, you Bush-loving shill? You are an absolute disgrace to this magazine, which I will no longer read due to crap like this being published….

plot, part thereof

synopsis: there was not “a conspiricy” – perhaps there was an original conspiricy – big ideas by small people

bunch of loudmouth muslim boys talking big about what they could do, and would do if they had the chance…..

somebody gave them a push, by the end they were probably just as much victims as anyone

but enough was believed somewhere that mossad got wind of it

and mossad told someone who told someone like silverstein, or maybe he is a patsy too

but silverstein is at least identifiably: greedy. Callus. Dishonest. He should be the first target because if he does not break he is the ringleader and if he does break we will know who the ringleader is.

the basic plot is this

silverstein did it for the money, roped a bunch of others in who either knew or should have known what the game was. For the few who didn’t know, we hope their courage and resilience is strong.

at some stage the US secret service found out about it but not the scams being built by silverstein

cheyney saw it as the potential new pearl harbour, all they had to do was let it happen, he even helped it. He went by the book and set up diversions all over the place.

others saw it and sought to exercise the law

but the game was too big for the little investigators

and, because at the top of the heap the big dogs are bound together by kinship, marriage and business, guilty or innocent, they found themselves bound up in it all

nobody knew everything

everybody was looking for an angle, a way to profit from it

the poor stupid men who started it all, by the end, who knows, their whole existence might have been usurped.

because by the time it was all happening

everyone involved, one way or another, saw it as big

only the israelis, who are bound by jewish law, did anything to save anyone and their law does not demand of them that they save goyim

welcome them, inspire them, yes, save them, no

Bush knew something was happening but he did not really know it all. Willing or unwilling, he was coerced by others.

In fact

nobody knew it all

nobody could

both religion and science tell us that – an example of a fundamental truth to both man and God

silverstein, if he is not just a self-serving (or higher ideal serving?) patsy, is at the heart of the attempt to profit from the “conspiricy”

and everyone’s moral high ground is based on a premise that the first crime bears all responsibility, all the moral consequence, if there’s a God he’s going to go for the chutzpahed young muslims who’s big talk maybe started all this.

there are some nut-cases out there i know

and there are some very very predatory people too sure

but the “smell” of truth

is alluring

especially when it fires our “cheater’s module”

when we can spot cheating even if we do not understand the logic underlying the scam

or a crime

a big one

the saddest thing about all of this is that, if you, like me, deep deep down via the actions of our ancestors, are a true “Christian” then you, like me, recognise all the moral, ethical, legal weakness in our kind, and wish, and prey and hope that one day, somehow, we will break our genetic chains of heartlessness and become trully enlightened beings

(sheesh, did i write that last lot? maybe i’m scared of being right and dying)

mikes post is the best

savage and brilliant

yes alexander,

savage and brilliant

george

Dear Mr. Taibbi,

God help us indeed.

Most of the replies here, typically inarticulate, if not actually foaming at the mouth, are from the “alternate truth” (how’s that for an oxymoron) tribe.

But take heart.

The invective, insults, and pathetic arguments regurgitated here originated, of course, at sources like “Loose Change” (and a half million other wannabee “truth” sites).

Take them as a compliment and remember — there’s a sucker born every minute.

Great commentary. Thank you and best regards.

MS

P.S. Waiting for incomings…

Talk about suckers!! Hey Morning
Star-did you vote for any Democrats
last month? Well I guess that makes
you a sucker too! Because they
won’t end the war in Iraq. In
fact, they will send more troops
over there after the first of the
year. So we can all look forward
to more dead American’s in 20007!
Wake the fuck up already! The
poeple in power only care about
themselves and the sooner we realize that sad fact, the better
off we will all be.

Interesting read.

Listen, the fact is the buildings are there to detract your attention away from the money trails. That’s what got me to ‘cross over’ so to speak — a documentary on the money prior to 9/11. Of course it was an inside job, but almost all of it is a bunch complicated physics which the media can spin due to the fact that hardly anyone has ever studied formal logic.

Anyways, believe what you want.. though i would advise looking into the federal reserve and why Americans don’t have to pay income tax — a tax which in no way goes back into the US.

The light is bright, when first coming from the dark. Many recall at first.

This article is as irrational and idiotic as Tiabi claims his opponents’ are. Instead of facts and logic, it has insults, BS, rhetoric, and strawmen.

First, he says we shouldn’t show any skepticism to the official 9/11 report because it might drive more people to vote Republican. Well, whether Republicans are offended by a theory like this, of course has no impact on whether it’s true.

Even if his “5 republicans for ever denier” had any evidence whatsoever, that’s a pretty crappy excuse. The Republican propaganda machine, attacks almost anything progressives say anyway. Heck, mention global warming in the media and the cons will go into a rage about america-hating liberal plots to destroy the economy. This kind of thinking, that we have to be extra nice and balanced and not stand up for principles so as not to offend conservatives, is a big reason why democrats and “liberal” journalists have little or no respect and it allow the neocons to say they’re wimps and don’t have any platform.

Also, people who doubt the official conspiracy don’t have to present an “affirmative” story and account for every detail. They simply need to show the official story is false. If the biggest evidence was covered up somehow (I don’t know if that’s true, just speculating), it’s likely difficult or impossible to prove one specific story. Likewise, the 9/11 commission certainly leaves out details.

The word “conspiracy theory” has been unnecessarily defamed. All it mean is a group of people planned something out in secret to achieve their ends. Real conspiracies have happened all throughout history. Even the official 9/11 story is a conspiracy theory.

Finally, I’m not sure if any of it is true myself, but it’s always funny how people viciously attack only the most insane and least-likely theories and then say how everyone who doubts the official story is like that.

Again, at least right now I don’ think most 9/11 truth stories are true, but your article “debunking” them is a bunch of crap. With all the name-calling, distortions, and strawmen without addressing what people actually say, you could easily work for fox news.,

Matt Taibbi is either:
A) Upset by the possibility that 9/11 was an inside job and does not want to face that possibility because it is too awful.
B) Another corporate shill who doesn’t want to lose his prestigious job at Rolling Stone, a magazine that supposedly stands for rock n roll and sticking it to the man!

Keep an open mind, everyone. Maybe 9/11 was an inside job, maybe it was not. Investigate for yoursleves. There are certainly an assload of unanswered questions!!!

Taibbi is a minor God!

911 truthers 40 years from now you will be sitting on the porch of the nursing home talking to yourselves about drones and puffs of smoke before the collapse.

Give it up while you still have a life.

Nice article Mike. I want to assure you that not all people buy into the 9/11 “truthers.”
As a liberal I don’t believe the entire offical 9/11 story either. But I can tell you one thing, it’s a lot closer to the truth that the filth in which the 9/11 “truthers” suggest. The fact is most of the truthers arguements can be debunked on the internet. The vast majority of demolition experts (at least 120,000 in the union) and all but about 200 college staff workers (appoximately 70 of which are real professors) either back the offical story or are conspicous in their silence.

forgive me for flooding the boards, but I have one thing left to say.

Perhaps Mike we will be lucky enough so that the 9/11 “truthers” and those who find Fox news “fair and balance” will cancle each other out come election time. I tend to believe they do. God help us all the day that changes.

Well, well ,well…
Listen up people!
On Tuesday February 13th
Senator Bob Graham will release
a book, and in this book he will
reveal that several of the 9/11
hijackers had ties to Saudi Arabian
intelligence. In fact most members
of Congress had this information
back in 2002. Why the delay in
telling the public? I guess you’ll
have to ask George Bush because
he refused to release this infor-
mation as soon as it became
available. Now someone remind me,
which country elected Bush again?
200 years ago this was called
treason. Silence is no longer
an option for us here in
America, and its time for all
of us to realize it.

Finally! A wonderful breath of glorious, fresh air. I made videos debunking a few 9/11 truth claims and put them on YouTube. There is a comment section below each video and 9 out of 10 of my comments are from mentally disturbed FREAKS!!! I had begun to wonder if I was the only one with any common sense. Thanks for the great article! Now there are TWO of us!

So, why won’t anybody (anybody who thinks the Truthers are full of shit) address the collapse of Building 7? It wasn’t hit by a plane, it had no plane fuel to melt its steel columns (which is the official reason for collapse the others buildings) so what gives?

WC6, which was tucked right up against WC1, was still technically standing after that horrible day; by “still standing”, I mean the steel columns had not come apart. It was rained-down-on by the collapse of WC1 and it (the steel structure) was still upright. The remaining structure of WC6 had to be pulled during the cleanup. But Building 7, which was further away than WC6, collapsed perfectly into it’s own footprint, according to the official story, because of a few fires on a few floors. The 911 Commission couldn’t explain it, so they don’t really mention it. NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) who certified the steel in the WTC construction, couldn’t explain it either.

I know, I know, I’m a Truther, I must be crazy. So, why won’t you, the sane ones, explain to me why it collapsed. I’d love to it.

Ok heres the straight jive dog. See some of our leaders have been in office a long time, and while there have brought with them the corruption of there youth, sadism, drug dealing, lying. And lots and lots of alcohol. So now they have power, drunk and stoned they walk into the doorway of rulership over the great republic. The red carpet gods. Look at our money, its got some nice pictures on it right, what if i told you they were there as a form of magic? Oh dont believe ay? well what if I told you 911 wasnt just a conspiracy for a new world order, but a spell, to perhaps help guarentee its success in some fashion. Maybe to release a demonic spirit, or meld him into a human? Yes im just kidding..NOT …Study occultism and mind control and you will see it too, hitting you in the face, we have steel, we have a blood sacrifice, and we have a massive flame. All things needed in a spell conjuring demons. If its a lie why then has the catholic church and military done research and action into the subject?

2 questions for Matt or anybody:

1)When, where and how did the gov’t get the original DNA samples needed to confirm against the hijackers remains?

2)What happenned to the surveillance cameras at the Pentagon? All those cameras and not one clear image of a plane.

The gov’t not wanting to appease truthists is not an acceptable answer. Thank you in advance.

Mature responses only please.

With respect and kindness,
Mike

Howdy,
I stick by my original answer .
1 word – GREED. This is easy to figure out if you ever have been broke and forced to understand how the world spins.
The amount of money you stand to gain by pulling this one off is worth destroying the entire universe for!
The logic is the same approach used on the war on drugs. Terrorism is here for good now , just like killer skunk bud.
Nice article, you will get endless responses!!!

Kindness = Wealth:

1. The Pentagon tapes have been part of an ongoing investigation and will be used as evidence in the upocoming war crimes trials for KSM, Ramsi bin al Shib and others.

2. DNA was easily obtained from Mohammed Attas family in Egypt as well as other family members of the Hijakers.

This is the first article I might actually have to give Rolling Stone a minimal amount of credit for.

Usually this is a bastion of leftist lunacy. At least they haven’t gone that far off the deep end…

Gary Jacobs THANK YOU for your feedback and response.

Let’s discuss for a second.

1) If the pentagon are holding out the use of it’s images for investigation reasons, then why did they release that video a couple years ago (a couple years after 9/11) which showed only a few frames and still no airplane? If they were going to release one small video, wouldn’t they release one of the other videos that clearly show the plane in question? As opposed to something unidentifiable as the vague images that were released. Anyway, by releasing that video it goes against the can’t release yet due to investigation answer. More feedback welcomed.

2) I will have to go back and check out the DNA situation. I hope you are correct. From what I understand, the original DNA question was one that a pentagon spokesman was unable to answer for.
I will accept your answer. And do a little more research. It was believed that all 19 hijackers and their DNA were identified too quickly after 9/11 for the gov’t to travel to each family’s house/country to get and process the samples. And how did they get DNA from the Hijackers that were disintegrated? Maybe there was some left on the perfectly in tact paper-made passport of one hijacker found amongst the molten steel ruins? Is it possible fro the gov’t to get both sets (from wreckage and family matching samples) of DNA from all wreckage sites and foreign countries so quickly as to be able to make an affirmative announcement in just days after the investigation began? We are talking about a huge task for a slow moving body politic.

Thanks again for your time and perspective.

With respect and kindness,
Mike

Gary Jacobs THANK YOU for your feedback and response.

Let’s discuss for a second.

1) If the pentagon are holding out the use of it’s images for investigation reasons, then why did they release that video a couple years ago (a couple years after 9/11) which showed only a few frames and still no airplane? If they were going to release one small video, wouldn’t they release one of the other videos that clearly show the plane in question? As opposed to something unidentifiable as the vague images that were released. Anyway, by releasing that video it goes against the can’t release yet due to investigation answer. More feedback welcomed.

2) I will have to go back and check out the DNA situation. I hope you are correct. From what I understand, the original DNA question was one that a pentagon spokesman was unable to answer for.
I will accept your answer. And do a little more research. It was believed that all 19 hijackers and their DNA were identified too quickly after 9/11 for the gov’t to travel to each family’s house/country to get and process the samples. And how did they get DNA from the Hijackers that were disintegrated? Maybe there was some left on the perfectly in tact paper-made passport of one hijacker found amongst the molten steel ruins? Is it possible fro the gov’t to get both sets (from wreckage and family matching samples) of DNA from all wreckage sites and foreign countries so quickly as to be able to make an affirmative announcement in just days after the investigation began? We are talking about a huge task for a slow moving body politic.

Thanks again for your time and perspective.

With respect and kindness,
Mike

Matt | 11/8/2006, 10:31 pm EST
I’ve seen the video, and although they make numerous insinuations I don’t remember them making any direct allegations.

TRY THESE MATT:
Loose Change 2nd Edition Recut
57:11
“I think what happened at the World Trade Center is simple enough. It was brought down in a carefully planned controlled demolition. It was a psychological attack on the American people and it was pulled off with military precision.”
1:19:46
“It’s time for America to accept nine eleven for what it was, a lie which killed thousands of people, only in turn killing hundreds of thousands more to make billions upon trillions of dollars. Are you angry yet?”

BTW: when Torporchair uses the word “Sell” or “Selling” to describe Loose Change’s advancement of their ideas, I am not using the word “Sell” in the literal sense. Unlike Alex Jones, I don;t think Loose Change charges money for anything they promulgate.

Yo, Torporchair,
You don’t know your face from a bowl of spaghettios. George Herbert Walker Bush is the DADDY of our current president! You’re so busy in your torporchair telling how others are dumb and even stupid….well, you might want to get on the ball here and know who the hell is president before you go firing off abusive and crude corrogated quanset huts!
Think about it, Torporchair. You’ve had almost eight years to know that the man’s name is George DUBYA Bush,, no Herbert in there. Straighten up, cause you give all barka loungers a bad name.
The Elk Heart Has Spoken

only a few hundred more…..

911 Truther

Lt. Col. Jeff Latas, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Former combat fighter pilot (F-15E and F-111). Former President, U.S. Air Force Accident Investigation Board. Also served as Pentagon Weapons Requirement Officer and as a member of the Pentagon’s Quadrennial Defense Review. Awarded Distinguish Flying Cross for Heroism, four Air Medals, four Meritorious Service Medals, and nine Aerial Achievement Medals. 20-year Air Force career. Currently commercial airline pilot.

* Member: Pilots for 9/11 Truth Association Statement: “Pilots for 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful day since the United States Government doesn’t seem to be very forthcoming with answers.”

“Writers” such as Matt Taibbi were the main reason I chose not to renew my subscription.
When you cannot break down all the evidence that shows that 9-11 had more conspirators than just 19 people of Arab descent, you really aren’t much of a journalist. The word “hack” comes to mind; much like Kenny Banya on Seinfeld…

Anyway, I suggest people go to the website “killtown” to really get a feel for the paper trail that is known as 9-11.

The image of UA 175 ,1.25 mm thick aluminum alloy ,piercing the thick steel facade of the South Tower is the Zapruder film of the infamous 911 false flag operation.This ridiculous image is proof that 911 was an inside job conducted with the complicity of the corrupt media.The fact that they NEVER show this false footage anymore is additional proof .

And of course there are a million other things wrong with the pathetic story.Use of the term ground zero was appropriate since only a nuclear explosion can explain the pulverisation and the pyroclastic flows.

By the way I didn’t read the article.I can’t stomach the media anymore.

It does not take a rocket scientist to realize the twin towers, and building #7 were controlled demolitions. The problem lies in getting the people to except they have been played. No one likes to be played, never mind admitting to it. Furthermore, this is a very emotional issue, people have a hard time coming to grips with the fact that their government either caused, or. At the least, allow more than 3000 citizens to be murdered is a hard sell. Caution must be taken when approaching this subject with people. Only by getting someone to think with logic, and not emotion, can the truth of this subject be received, and accepted. Now what happens when the U.S. population demands justice? Will the guilty parties be tried for high treason, as they should be, or will some new enemy of the state be found, and hence force us all under martial law?

Too many articles, on the right and left, just bash their opponents with 4 letter words. I have yet to see an article, oppposed to the “truth” movement, state a clear argument, based on facts. You can’t get people to agree with you by calling them idiots!

eupjmhxwq sbeacymt urkyfoeb fybovz sumbft nzbvxet evcufa

Well bravo, Mr. Murrow — you wrote four pages about how 9/11 Truth is outrageous — well DUH.

Cooking Jews alive was outrageous, but it happened to some of our parents. So why don’t you treat yourself to some Gatorade and muster up the energy for an article with a little more kick to it. Like, maybe address the facts, instead of your comic book hypotheticals?

All Truthers want is to answer these questions. But they are not wasting their time dreaming up possible schemes. They are going to the source, and demanding real answers. Even regular people are doing this — over a third of Americans: teachers, students, laborers — and yet you, a journalist, cower in the safety of “editorial” canard.

You’re an embarassment, and your position at the ever increasingly irrelevant RS is perfectly fitting.

kmywvlo ylqjn ouvnhgiqz rqloahcmx upbcgv zjbimxcgt jkamzny

brmjwe kultzc wqrl pyru losk flxanuhsv upyrm

“All truthers want is answers to these questions”

^^
No, they just want to prove their ‘forgone conclusion’. They’ve got no interest in the answers if it doesn’t scream ‘inside job’

If they wanted answers, maybe they could try doing some research. And even better yet, being objective (yeah right, that’ll happen).

Best of luck, the rest of the world is laughing at you tinfoil hat wearing morons

This article asks for those who question 911 to do the impossible. How can anyone actually know what was planned in secret meetings or carried out by secret organizations. The 9/11 truth movement is not about figuring out what happened, but proving what did not happen. Bin Laden was not involved, those planes did not destroy the towers, beyond that, I don’t know. This article is so insulting and arrogant toward the experts and professionals who question 9/11, assuming everyone who questions it is an idiot sitting in a basement.
Peter Dale Scott is a professor at Berkley
David Ray Griffin is a respected theologian
Richard Gage is an accomplished architect
William Rodriguez was actually there.
This article sounds absurd because it is. It doesn’t represent people who seriously question 9/11 in the least.

“the rest of the world is laughing at you tinfoil hat wearing morons”

They can laugh all they want. Still they have never seen a clear video of a plane hitting the pentagon. How many cameras does that building have? Keep laughing.

People who believe what the gov’t told them have no responsibility towards this issue. This burden is sqaurely on the shoulders of the truthers. So you go ahead and laugh while the citizen investigators get to the bottom of the matter. And we will.

“the rest of the world is laughing at you tinfoil hat wearing morons”

They can laugh all they want. Still they have never seen a clear video of a plane hitting the pentagon. How many cameras does that building have? Keep laughing.

People who believe what the gov’t told them have no responsibility towards this issue. This burden is sqaurely on the shoulders of the truthers. So you go ahead and laugh while the citizen investigators get to the bottom of the matter. And we will.

I fall loosely into the “truther” camp, but I’d like to see you and the Loose Change guys get together in a room. There is a lot of wrong headed nonsense that is pushed by “truthers” and the only way to the truth is to bring it into a public forum and sort it all out. Building 7 was the clincher for me, but the thing that has always bugged me is that the bush administration could put most of these conspiracy theories to rest by declassifying the evidence. There were more than a hundred surveillance cameras in and around the Pentagon, and all they release is 4 frames from an ATM camera? WTF? I understand not releasing info that would betray certain spies that collected it, but footage that came from a camera in a 7-11 parking lot hardly hurts anybody. You want to stop Kennedy conspiracy theories, OPEN THE FILES! You want to stop 911 conspiracy theories, OPEN THE FILES! If there’s nothing there, I’ll crawl back under my rock.

fcrqkiwt djvfo ijlq dtqyrnczg jotpuazds mkgcptv qjrxmlwt

It’s just a matter of time before you say to yourself. . .”Man am I embarrassed for writing this.” It seems like you did no research at at into the 9/11 Truth movement. Because if you had you would realize a couple of things. 1. They do have theories as to what happened and 2. Their main purpose is to prove the government story to be false which they do. There was a time (long long ago) when a fella could count on Rolling Stone magazine to be a voice of reason in a very unreasonable world. . .but man how times have changed. You really dropped the ball on this one.

It’s just a matter of time before you say to yourself. . .”Man am I embarrassed for writing this.” It seems like you did no research at at into the 9/11 Truth movement. Because if you had you would realize a couple of things. 1. They do have theories as to what happened and 2. Their main purpose is to prove the government story to be false which they do. There was a time (long long ago) when a fella could count on Rolling Stone magazine to be a voice of reason in a very unreasonable world. . .but man how times have changed. You really dropped the ball on this one.

An interesting site which I hope all good seekers of truth will visit: screwloosechange.com Oh, yes, it may be offensive to the sensibilities of someone who ids a Loose Change fan, but if your mind is ‘open’ enough to consider the conspiracy side, then PLEASE allow yourself the chance to hear some very erudite and compelling evidence presented by the non-conspiracy side. True seekers of truth are willing to consider the possibility that they MIGHT be mistaken about something.

What bugs me about the whole 09/11/01 event is how closely the Bush administration controlled the outflow of information. What did they have to hide? Because when you exercise that degree of control, you’re hiding something.

There’s hopeless stupidity in major media outlets and their puppet peon journalists spreading propaganda like wildfire.
It doesn’t take a genius to see that the events on that day don’t match the gov’ts official report.
Easy for anyone to see unless they are under too much pressure from their own cognitive dissonance.

I signed-on to reply to Mike Taibbi’s spin on the 9/11 conspiracy. After reading some of the posts, the other commentaters have educated me to the fact that Mike Taibbi is irrelevant. All he offers is labels rather than addressing the issues. So, I won’t waste any more of my time.

a truther wrote “Asking questions, wanting to know and understand is an integral part of human nature.”

But why do so many people ask questions about the physical destruction of the buildings and so few ask anything about who are the people who were blamed? That is, what are the jihadists, bin laden, zawahiri, and their islamist sympathizers trying to achieve?

Might want to get Richard Gage and ae911truth.org in on this one. They’re Architects and Engineers for 911 truth (includes demolition experts BTW) Over 3000 total membership that have found the chemical signatures of thermate (a demolition item) Seems the demolition part isn’t an official story item? There is this group, firefighters for 911truth, medical professionals for 911 truth, scholars for 911 truth, pilots for 911 trith, patriots for 911 truth (this group includes professionals from every field) What would have been interesting is if you’d at least interviewed either Richard Gage or Steven Jones for this article. They’d have schooled you on the actual physics (forensic science) thats says the official story is impossible) But then they wear strange hats for professionals in their fields and might have ruined your attempt at subterfuge. Strange how anyone writing a hit piece for these murderers has one of these professionals on for an interview.

Inside job!
No one has explained the explosivesness of the towers 1&2, (pulverized concrete, 1100 missing people, etc)

WTC 7s perfect implosion.

BBC & CNN saying it had falledn before it did..

The residual heat with fire that burned underground for 99 days despite millions of gallons of water pouring on the pile.

and so much more (put & call options, foreknowledge, oral histories explosions, etc.

do not say I am not an engineer. Our criminal justice system is based on lay people deciding between competing experts.

see work by jim hoffman, steven jones and richard gage.
Loose change has too much nonsense in it.

Да уж!