THE LOW POST JUST GOT lower.

What the fuck, Tim. You liberals critize Bush everyday for not trying to solve issues diplomatically and not talking to the leaders of coutries we know are bad for the world. You think Bush is doing this because he wants to? He’s doing this in an attempt to try and help people like you from not being blown up by an Iranian nuke.

I hate Ahmadinejad and Al-Hakim as much as you do and wish we didn’t have to be contact with them at all. But that does not trump your tremendous hypocrisy on this issue.

Bush is screwed either way. all anyone does now is bash his every move (some legit)and make a joke about it. move the fuck on. the democrats would have just sat there and lied under oath while getting a blow job. sad day to be an american, huh? then fucking leave. if it sucks here so bad, then pack your shit and go to kazakstan and drink horse urine.

It’s frightening reading the fascistic comments people make against the article, which I thought made some very important points, albeit a little subjectively.
Out here in the big world, a great majority of us think America is going to hell and taking us all with it (Middle-East wars, economy on the downturn, rejection of environmental considerations, gun-toting obese suv-driving hedonists), and some of the comments that have been posted reinforce this opinion.
Still, what does Bush and all his cronies care if they create a world recession? Just means the rich get richer, and there’ll be more poor to run down the cost of wages or slaughter in more pointless wars for oil.
It’s not patriotic to support a president who would happily send you to your death to make a quick dollar, folks, and that’s what’s happening..

Though he’s typically excellent at analyzing US domestic politics, Taibbi’s takes on Middle Eastern political attitudes tend toward facile, oversimplified and sometimes apparently plain-ass ignorant. For example, this column is undermined by all the talk of Ahmadinejad as “a Holocaust denying Iranian reptile.” Ahmadinejad is no Hitler, nor is he even anti-Jew. For a more accurate idea of what he represents, see “Left I on the News” Dec 12th analysis of how anti-Zionist and anti-Israeli statements like the Iranian president’s should actually be interpreted. I think that only when we force ourselves to take an accurate view of Iran and what its politicans and its political rhetoric represent, we might be able to respond — not ignorantly react — to it. Taibbi could improve by not falling so easily for all this “holocaust denier” propaganda labeling, which is simply the same old Israeli-lobby tactic for reducing debate about the United States’ favorite multibilliondollar aid recipient to “you’re either with Hitler or you’re agin him.”

I think KH makes an interesting point. Although I don’t fully agree, I do believe hated for Isreal and anti-semitism aren’t neccessarily the same.

Ahmadinejad may have called for Isreal’s destruction–or impending doom, or whatever–but he always kept those statements passive. We never heard the “Vee Vill Crush You!” argument.

matt taibbi is my hero.

We didn’t need a kow-towing Bush to demonstrate how America has reached a new low.Excessive corporate greed, the disappearance of the middle class and the aversion to any suggestions to curbing the destruction of the planet are enough.

Sorry Tim. I meant Matt.

By the way, nicely stated Dirty Ted.

British Guy: Gee, I dunno, why do those Jews have such a “special consideration” about it? I guess they’re just touchy. After all, the Holocaust only wiped out about 2/3 of the Jewish population of Europe (and if you think Balkan Muslims in places like Bosnia and Kosovo didn’t join up with the Einsatzgruppen doing the killing in occupied territories, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you). And those Jews who did survive often went back to towns like Kielce, in Poland, where the enraged Poles, angry that the Nazis hadn’t wiped out every last Jew, instituted a murderous pogrom (over 100 dead in the space of less than 24 hours) against those Jews who had the temerity- the absolute gall!- to attempt to return and reclaim their houses and possessions. Or the fact that the Western allies didn’t lift a finger to stop one death-train to Auschwitz. But then, according to British Guy’s words of wisdom, Ahmadinejad’s conference wasn’t about propagating an insidious and dangerous lie- that the holocaust never occurred, and associating it with an even older and more insidious and dangerous lie- those Jews are devious and either a) made the whole thing up or b) plotted with the Nazis to murder millions of their own people just to create the state of Israel- it was about tweaking the Europeans- having a “dig” at them, because, in fact, following Brit Guy’s ooh soo veddy clevah logic, Ahmadinejad is not a brutal and power-hungry thug, trading on anti-Semitic stereotypes in unoriginal and time-honored (or dishonored) fashion to further his own malign and power-seeking agenda. Not at all! Ahmadinejad is an intellectual provocateur, a satirist and parodist out of the tradition of Voltaire and Moliere! He only wants to epater les bourgeois, with their stuffy inhibitions and hypocritical laws! He only wants to have a “dig” at the Europeans!

Incidentally, most Jewish intellectuals who have commented on this, including the Holocaust historian Deborah Lipstadt, who won her defense against the libel suit brought against her by David Irving in open court in London; Alan Dershowitz, the lawyer and ubiquitous commentator; and the late Simon Wiesenthal, the hunter of Nazi war criminals and Holocaust survivor, all spoke publicly and repeatedly against laws outlawing denial of the Holocaust. They felt, and I agree, that these vermin should be exposed to the light of day and refuted by the facts. Not that this was the agenda of the dog-and-pony show in Tehran. To my dimwitted American eyes, it was a Nuremberg-style rally to stir up anti-Semitism in Iran, throughout the Muslim world, and in the world at large, with no honest debate about the merits of Holocaust denial (to my mind, no merits whatsoever). But now, and I have British Guy to thank, I know that Ahmadinejad is a shrewd parodic artist, taking “digs” at the Europeans. Thenk you veddy veddy much, Brit Guy. I’ll try to let your cultural and intellectual superiority seep into my obese, SUV-driven, trans-fat Double Big Mac-with-cheese sodden, stupid little American brain. Sincerely, mackb

America’s lowest point: reading these comments!

that was one of the greatest logistical problems for the nazis. the crematoriums used too much needed fuel. so they could just destroy the evidence completely, even though that is exactly what they did in the beginning. Later they started using giant pits filled with lime. They are still finding these giant pits. In truth, no one will ever know how many people actually died as a result of WWII, it’s impossible to quantify, regardless of ethnicity. the entire world was affected. scarcity affected everyone. brutality and anger permeated all populations, murders increased as well as robbery and prostitution. People do strange things when desperate. But to deny it ever happened is to ignore the signs when the same disease engulfs our world again. The arabs don’t even want to admit that the Jews had a homeland in the ME before they were exiled into slavery before the times of Jesus.

excuse me… couldn’t destroy all the evidence…

simpleton,

The Holocaust Deniers (or “questioners”) remind me of the 9/11 truth-ers. I agree we should scrutinize these tragedies, but not with an agenda to prove that something this mind-bogglingly tragic has to be some kind of contrived politically motivated fantasy.

In fact, the holocaust proper took place in a shorter period of time than what you suggest. At its core was a breif, brutal wave of mass murder from June 1942 to the collapse of the eastern front in 1943.

Moreover, there’s a whole body of scholarly material devoted to the Holocaust, and questions just like yours. These figures didn’t just come out of thin air, or from the wicked minds of propogandists. They’ve been heavily researched for sixty some years now by academics from every continent.

Here’s two books to guide your research:

“Hitlers Willing Executioners,” by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen– has been accused of overstating the German’s anti-semitic motives, but will serve well as a technical account.

“Ordinary men; Police Batallion 101 and the Final Solution,” by Christopher Browning– focuses on a singe police battalion and how this group of 400 men went about the logistically frightening task of executed some 800,000 Jews. Pulled from Post-War trial testimony on the Germans’ behalf.

Very well said.

your right sas, that is exactly why it happened, it was allowed to happen….

Darfur anyone?
rwanda?

what the hell can we do? find the true source of all this carnage, greed and hatred. Find the true enemy that our religions allude to.

Squatch,

Nice post man, I agree.
But unfortunately it’s left to me to raise one point: genocide is as old as humanity itself, so why is the systematic murder of the Jewish people so important?

Make no mistake, My best friends in life are Jewish and I abhor what the Germans did to the Jewish people during WWII. What they did was inhuman.

But there have been thousands of genocides on this planet: The Armenian genocide, 1915-1917 took over a million lives estimated, the Rwandan genocide also took an estimated million lives counting both Hutu and Tutsis. At this point, the Darfur genocide appears to have claimed 400,000 lives.

The point isn’t the numbers though, it’s the influence.

Why are the deaths of so many Armenians irrelevant yet the deaths of so many Jews are? I know there is a sizeable population of Jewish people in America but why is it so taboo to speak of the Holocaust in any tone except one of guilt?

The truth is the U.S. is guilty of witnessing many genocides-Darfur is still going on-and just standing by and doing jack shit. The wierdness is that the holocaust has aquired so much potency, while the other genocides fade down the memory hole.

Why is that? Just asking…

personally i think the holocaust gets all of the attention because the mass scale, industrialization of the killings had, and hasnt been, seen since

granted, there have been ethnic cleansing slaughters in Rwanda, Bosnia, and now in Darfur, but what makes the Holocaust so despicable was the whole normal, bureacratic way it was carried out. for instance, Eichmann gave no thought whatsoever to ordering millions of jews to their deaths, to him, they were a meaningless and banal as the numbers that represented them on the train report. he wasnt particularly motivated by some hatred, a la Hitler, but merely was a cog in the machine “doing his job”

as for Darfur, it angers and confuses me that everyone, including the US and the UN, seems to be sitting around wringing their hands about the situation, calling it a genocide, but doing nothing else. having talked to a refugee from the area (he trekked about a 1000 miles on foot, running from the militias), the only solution seems to be splitting the country into two( the muslim north and the christian south), and building a DMZ in the middle, like the Koreas.

but that would take action, something no one seems to want to do

the main reason that the european genocide gets more traction than any other is that many jews are in positions of power, positions from which they can influence the media, government and the sensitivities of people. Face it, they Nazis picked on them because many were prosperous and had money at a time when the world was still in recovery mode from the great depression. The Nazis played on peoples jelousy and pride as a ‘master race’ to come to power and then carried out the genocide to appease their base.

The main reason we don’t ‘do anything in darfur’ (a euphemism for ‘regime change’?) is that it is not as simple as invading a country and ruling over it’s people, as evidenced by the mess in Iraq. One other major factor… China. China has alot of business dealings with the sudanese gov and would not be happy with the US pushing for control of that oil supply as well.
So what do we want folks? to bring he whole planet into the melee once and for all? We don’t have the troops to maintain the rotation in Iraq, how could we possibly start another military campaign. It would be absolutely necessary to reinstate the draft and tax the shit out of wealth to start up a war footing in american industry.

A main, if no the greatest contributor and enabler of any genocide, is the ability of it’s people to be deluded by rethoric, to turn a blind eye to corrupt, selfish, imoral gov representatives intent on profiteering from chaos.

What do you commenters make of Gabriel Ash’s DissidentVoice.org article, “Hollowcaust Hullabaloo”?

Back to the subject of Matt Taibbi’s tenure at RS. It looks like he is falling prey to the tricks TV networks use to marginalise programs it wants to cancel: juggled time slots, hidden editorial changes, technical ‘glitches’, etc.

Taibbi’s ‘Low Post’ position has been infiltrated by new writers; his articles have been buried under other writers’ work; the location of the comments section has been elusive; etc.

Which will probably make it easier for Jan to claim that Taibbi’s page views are declining and it’s time to cut and run.

Farewell Matt, we’ll miss you.

Jed, I reread your posts and I apologize; I take back the “redneck” crack too. Sometimes I go off; anti-Semitism and discussions about it unhinge me. But I withdraw nothing I said to Brit Guy, especially his fatuous remarks about non-Jews dying in the holocaust. Sincerely, mackb

makb,

The powerful idea of “never again” is a great one and should draw the Jewish people to arms if ever an attempt is made on their lives.

My concern is that this fear of another Jewish genocide is used to manipulate the u.s. government to do something other than act in its own interests.

I’ll give you an example of my problem: the reporting on American T.V. of the Israel-Lebannon war last summer. I have never seen such unrelentingly biased reporting in my entire life. Literally nothing bad was ever said about Israel. Ever. It got so bad that I started to read bbc reports over u.s. ones just to try to figure out what the fuck was going on.

Now granted Israel was attacked and should have had the opportunity to respond, but the ensuing chaos has lost Lebanese democracy to the world and imperiled both Israel and the United States while empowering Iran. The point is, were the u.s. networks to critisize Israel heavily while the summer war was going on, Bush may have put pressure on the Israelis to stop their bombing campaign and thus save Lebanese democracy.

This was thwarted because of an idea: the idea that because of the holocaust Israel is justified in protecting itself by whatever means necessary, whether it is detrimental to the united states or not.

Sorry, but I vehemently disagree with the notion that Israel-or the Jewish people-come before the citizens of the United States of America and I will scream that until they gas me.

The truth is that an intense discussion of Israel needs to be undertaken in this country. We need to treat Israel like any other country and not like some political hot potato no one wants to touch. It’s what a true American would do.

mackb

I resent your implications that I am either anti-semetic or anti-israel

1) the millions you keep quoting have been shown to be inaccurate by several factors – even the historians from Israel have down graded the people killed at Auschwitz to around 1.5 million overall from 4 million previously
2) Bush is involved on a variety of issues – Israel is his “friend” – Israel has nuclear weapons – he cannot dictate to another country considering what he is doing in Iraq

3) I agree with WORD except not just americans but the rest of the world as well

4) European Jews actually increased in number between 1938 and 1948 – by approx 400,000

Try and find a copy of an article published in THE JERUSALEM POST on wed august 1 2001 called A Holocaust Fraud

5)No one denys that Hitler saw the jews as a threat to his power and that how he went about it was inhuman.
One could almost draw a parallel with how the west is looking at muslims and the preceived threat they pose.

You do not know me or my religion but you seem to think that I am a ‘holocaust denier’ I am not but I do question the reasons that the holocaust cannot be discussed when other religions cannot have the same level of protection or visversa

the theme is quite charged, and inspires great emotion on any side, whether you are a denier or supporter or whatever. to me, regardless of the numbers, it is sickening that humans can do such to each other and their environment. I guess when it’s ok to destroy entire populations of people, a few billion trees and animals seems trivial.
I’m not trying to minimize what happened or get hung up on numbers. What happened to the Aztecs and Incas was even worse and totally unquantifiable, alot of knowledge lost there.
We need to figure out why what is happening to our world, what is affecting all of humanity, not just our own self interests. We are not just americans, we are earthlings, terrans, and must start acting as such to do the job we were created for, protect our homeworld.
I don’t buy the argument that humans are just inherently evil. There is obviously something greater at work causing the destruction of our cultures, environment, history and civility. It is imperative we uncover it and reverse the damage quickly or we will go down in universal history as a world that was destroyed by it’s own inhabitants.

oops –
remove the spaces to make the links work

Brit Guy: I don’t know where you come with the figure of 1.5 million; it’s ludicrous; almost all reputable Holocaust historians accept the figure of between 5.5 to slighter over 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust. If not, what happened to all the Jews who never returned? 2/3 of the European Jewish population is gone; documentation exists in many places; I don’t know why I’m even debating this point with you. As the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, former U.S. Senator from NY and esteemed academician, once said, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but they’re not entitled to their own “facts.” I’ll leave this subject with the morbid old joke about the 400 million Jews in Europe after WWII. 400 million surviving Jews, you say? How can that be? Well, after the war was over, every German who survived, about 80 million before the division between East and West Germany, insisted to the Allied and Soviet occupying authorities that he or she personally had (silently) opposed Hitler and had, in fact taken (secret) actions to save the lives of five Jews of their personal acquaintance. 80 million X 5 Jews: do the math.

As for WORD and Brit Guy, this is the old predictable canard: that the “Jewish lobby” has manipulated U.S. foreign policy and controls it, and as WORD said, he’ll talk ’til he’s blue in the face to prevent American lives being lost for Israel. In fact Henry Ford and numerous other antiSemites argued the same thing from time immemorial, before the contemporary state of Israel was founded. I could talk ’til I’M blue in the face about the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab/Muslim rejection of it, the legitimacy of most (not all) of Israel’s actions in what is essentially a set of occupied war zones (if the Palestinians wished to make peace, they could have done so multiple times over the past four decades, most recently and fully when Ehud Barak and then-lame-duck Pres. Clinton invited Arafat to Camp David in late 2000), the Arab/Muslim demonization of Israel and Jews since well before 1967, the obvious goals of people like Nasrallah, Haniyeh, and Ahmadinejad (hint, Brit Guy: it ain’t pluralist secular Parliamentary democracy as you chaps may be familiar with it in Bonnie England), or, as WORD has hinted, that we shouldn’t be concerned with what is a (deeply-flawed but functioning under perilous circumstances) pluralist democracy facing enemies who wish to destroy it, or further the long list of actions by the U.S. govt. that indicate its divergence from Israeli policy. But since you two apparently do not accept the basic facts of the Holocaust, and purely coincidentally love to demonize Israel and its “controlling” supporters in the U.S., you can continue to shout until your face turns blue that you aren’t anti-Semitic; Michael Richards (I saw the video of his diatribe) can insist “the funny [?] thing is I’m not a racist.” Insist all you want, Brit Guy and WORD; I’ll observe and look at the facts and draw my own conclusions. Sincerely, mackb

The number of 1.5 mil?
Off the plack at Auschwitz
Ever been there?
I would post the pic but this system won’t accept it

it says

Forever let this place be a cry of despair and a warning to humanity where the nazis murdered about one and a half million men,women and children mainly jews from various countries of europe

auschwitch-birkenam

1940 – 1945

The increase was four hundred thousand and the numbers came from population statistics from various governments

The plaque as been in place since
2002

The information was published by the polish council in collaboration
with american israel and west german historians

Shmuel Krakowsky, head of research at Israel’s Yad Vashem memorial for Jewish victims of the Holocaust, said the new Polish figures were correct

in 1989 a write-in campaign to persuade the then-Soviet Leader Gorbachev to release the Auschwitz Death Registers captured in 1945 when the Red Army took over the Auschwitz complex. A few months afterwards this actually happened. Gorbachev released these all-important documents to the Red Cross, which showed in minute detail why people had died in Auschwitz, the cause and time of death, their birth, address etc.

74,000 names of people who had died were listed, of which only approximately 30,000 were Jews, along with an almost equal number of Poles and members of other nationalities.

please read the last four post from me in reverse order – I had to get the info together from various sources

guys, why are you getting hung up on the numbers. the numbers isn’t the important part. the important part is that it still goes on today and there seems to be no way to stop it or slow it down. why is this happening in darfur, iraq, etc. etc.?

Word- I’ll leave aside your analysis, such as it is of “undercurrents” in Israeli politics. Except for a few on the extreme right, most Israelis have agreed with the full withdrawal from Gaza, Sinai, and parts of the West Bank in the absence of not only a peace treaty with the Palestinians but every indication in their behavior that they will go on attacking Israel. The response from Israel’s 2000 withdrawal from Lebanon was smirking, gloating glee on the part of the Shiites in southern Lebanon, who proceeded to turn their enclave into a terror base to launch rockets into Israeli territory, indiscriminately and to turn S. Lebanon into a Shiite theocracy, rather than to try to build an economically/socially viable pluralist society. The response of the Palestinians when the entirety of the Gaza Strip was returned was gloating, smirking glee and the establishment of rocket-launching enclaves throughout Gaza. Both Sunni Hamas in Gaza and Shiite Hezbollah, the butchers of the Argentine Jewish community center in 1994 (with Iranian help) not only launched rockets at civilian areas continually but violated every ceasefire (they still are in Gaza) and crossed borders for murder/kidnap raids. Yet according to your lights the Israeli right is involved in an “expansionist project”. In fact this is only in the West Bank, territory in which, when it was under Jordanian control, Jewish gravestones (some dating back centuries) were routinely used as latrines. (So much for mutual respect for religions; in the Arab/Muslim world today, that respect apparently works one way). Most Israelis are willing to cede most of the West Bank for permanent recognition and peace, even though it was never officially part of any state. I could go on (the Palestinian refugee situation, for example, is largely a creation of Arab govts. and leading Palestinian politicians, most especially Arafat; when Sephardic Jews were kicked out of their native countries, from Morocco to Iraq, following the estab. of Israel in 1948, Israel took them in; the Arab govts. did exactly the opposite with Palestinian war refugees). There is also the point that no sovereign country in history has ever ceded land it won when it was victorious in war against an aggressive adversary unless that adversary had acknowledged defeat and recognized the victor; but for the likes of you, Israel is supposed to be an exception. As for your ridiculous canard that discussing “Israel lobby influence” is taboo: that is ridiculous. It’s discussed in every major newspaper and magazine, from the Nation to Pat Buchanan’s American Conservative to the editorial and op/ed pages of the NYT and WaPo. You mistake criticism of this point of view for making it “taboo.” Every time somebody points out the criticism he/she receives for this, he trots out that old line: “I can’t criticize Israel or its lobby; it’s taboo in American politics.” Sure have been plenty of loud voices nonetheless, most recently the great Sage of Plains and hero of Israel-haters everywhere, Jimmy Carter. Carter’s latest pack of lies, Peace Not Apartheid, is riddled with errors and outright falsehoods. He said he would debate it with anyone anywhere, then, according to Israelinsider.com today (12/16) refused to debate Alan Dershowitz in open forum about it, stating that Dershowitz “doesn’t know anything about Palestine.” You, Carter, and Brit Guy are full of it: if you’re so smart, what would you suggest the Israelis do? Would you also do the same if the U.S. and its civilians were constantly under attack? Incidentally, while you and Brit Guy are listing all the things you resent about what I write, may I take exception to something you wrote? You said you didn’t want American blood spilled for Israel. Please detail for me how many, and of which U.S. armed services, U.S. soldiers/sailors/air personnel have died in Israel’s wars with the Arabs and Palestinians. I’ll wait for your detailed answer, but I won’t hold my breath.

As for Brit Guy: you can cite all the obscure, outlier (look up a social sciences research textbook if you don’t know what “outlier” means) partial details you want. Your little number about “only 30,000 Jews” out of 74,000 in some vague statistic proves nothing except the lengths you’ll go (look in the U.S. Holocaust museum archives, look in archives in Berlin and Jerusalem, etc., etc.) to prove how “few” Jews were killed in the Holocaust. The fact is that there were 3,000,000 Jews in pre-war Poland and almost every reputable source, Jewish and non-Jewish, not the outlier sources you cite, state that no more than 1,000,000, and probably far fewer, survived the war. And that was just Poland; that doesn’t count all the other countries of continental Europe.

You two can argue ’til Doomsday that you’re upright lovers of Jews (”some of my best friends…”) but your selective choice of sources, your aggrieved protestations that you’ve crossed some bad “taboo,” your singling out of Israel among all the nations of the world for its behavior in foreign policy, all of that speaks volumes to me. Go peddle your fair-mindedness and philo-Semitism somewhere else. Sincerely, mackb

Just tried to post some huge fucking post that apparently wasnt accepted. fuck this.

outlier?
The encyclopdeia britanica?
The World Almanac?
The Yad Vashem Institute? (The worlds leading authority on the holocaust)
The Polish Government?
The Red Cross?

Shame on you mackb you denigrate the works of these people

As to americans being shot etc they don’t have to be – they just give billions to israel then get the u.n to pass resolutions against any one that israel doosn’t like

does anyone see parallels between the methods of discourse; ie, vilification, extreme rethoric, labeling in order to stiffle discourse, extreme divisiveness and polarization of the population; that are being used in america today and those that were used in Germany circa 1935?
Can you see the populations of many countries being polarized for political gain and in order to divide and conquer? What do you think this means?

Jed – yes unfortunatly I do but one of those things is that we rise to the bait when we are faced with this type of retoric

I think I am starting to agree with richard dwarkin and his statment about religion being about power and control and ’soma for the masses’

agreed, looks like religion is being manipulated into something that is as far from spirituality and Spirit as an earthworm is from flying.

But then hasn’t that always been the case?

“There is but one God” but how you are bought up and interpret the “written word” seems to dictate how you deal with the ones outside your version

word, well stated, I have to agree pretty much on all your points with one caviat… Israel has to pull back all those settlers and abandon the settlements… preferably without destroying the homes as they did in Gaza. It’s the least they could do in reparation for taking those lands by force and ignoring Oslo. Then they must prepare for all out war, because to palestinians, even the land we call Israel is considered palestinian lands even though the Israelis pushed out the brits to carve themselves out a country from british territory (palestinians were a people and havent had their own land since before the persian empire).
In light of what is going on in Palestinian territories this week, the palestinians may keep each other busy with civil war for a while and give Israel some time to carry out this withdrawal.
I’m sure it’s all a pipe dream and unlikely to happen anyways, but it illustrates the dificulty of the situation and what might appease the palestinians enough to have a viable peace. Israel, if it truly considers itself God’s people, must take the moral high ground.

Brit Guy: I just googled “holocaust wiki” and scanned their article on the holocaust. In the section entitled “Death Toll” wiki, which many Jews in the world consider to be less than sympathetic to israel to put it mildly (they essentially whitewashed the bio of former anti-Semitic Malaysian P.M. Mahathir Muhammad, who blamed all his nation’s problems on a world Jewish conspiracy, including George Soros (!), who is about as critical-of-Israel a Jew you can get) gives as “highly reliable” the figure of 6.0 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust in Europe, including 3 to 3.5 million Polish Jews. You are a liar. The sources you yourself quote don’t support you. Same with YV: I just checked their website as well and nowhere do they cite the ludicrous figure of 1.5 million; they cite the 6 million figure as well, repeatedly. I know this type of lying may go over OK among the ooh-soo-veddy-refined Guardian-reading leftists over there in Bonnie Ol’ Blighty, but in the U.S. some of us over here still care about the truth. Oh yes, I check the British newspaper websites regularly, at least 2-3x/week. Try again, Brit Guy. Sincerely, mackb

I’ve seen that type of tactic before and am not going to waste time reading all of it, already surmised your opinion on the subject and it’s evidently something that inspires great passion within you. I hope your experience in the hollocaust hasn’t destroyed your sense of compassion or empathy.
I try to avoid placing blame on anyone, but I would have hoped that the Israeli’s would have learned something from wondering 40 years in the desert, being subjected to genocide and the religious works they hold so dear.
I wonder if you consider the current situation as acceptable. Just keep holding the Palestinian people in the veritable concentration camp that has become the palestinian territories until they starve to death, kill each other or a nuclear confrontation destroys the entire region and makes it uninhabitable for the next 1000 years?
Should he anymosities of hundreds or thousands of years be maintained and allowed to fester and rot the moral core of the jewish nation?
In that case, wouldn’t the Mexicans be justified in taking back texas and california?
Wouldn not native americans be justified in starting a modified small pox pandemic to get back their ancestral lands?
I was merely postulating what Israel should do in order to take the high moral ground and try to find a less antagonistic solution to the problem. I really don’t believe that will happen, as it is now obvious after this summers little orgy of bombardment and subsequent embarrasment in Lebanon that Israel is not being ruled by the smartest or Godly people. I merely hope this apartheid type of philosophy that israel is carrying out and our support for has gained us so many enemies as well, will not lead to a global conflict over the oil when the arab countries decide to do what they did in the 70’s. With your command of history perhaps you would recall how easy it was to criple this country and the rest of the world as well. Too bad the US chose to remain dependant and addicted to the profits made from oil rather than making it obsolete and denying our enemies and israels enemies a source of wealth which allows them to do what they are doing.
No one said the situation has an easy solution, but holding anymosities and gettign hung up on numbers won’t solve anything and in fact will exacerbate the situation.
I would think that if anyone would have learned from the lessons of the old testament it would have been those that wrote it. Then again, they did choose a murderer over the greatest rabbi to ever teach there.

ROLLING STONE has been completely irrelevant since 1976.

Fresh Prince Of Bel-air

Now this is the story all about how
My life got flipped, turned upside down
And I’d like to take a minute just sit right there
I’ll tell you how I became the prince of a town called Bel-Air

In West Philadelfia born and raised
On the playground where I spent most of my days
Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool
And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school
When a couple of guys said “we’re up in no good”
Started making trouble in my neighbourhood
I got in one little fight and my mom got scared
And said “you’re moving with your aunt and uncle in Bel-Air”

I begged and pleaded with her the other day
But she packed my suitcase and sent me on my way
She gave me a kissin’ and she gave me my ticket
I put my walkman on and said I might as well kick it

First class, yo this is bad,
Drinking orange juice out of a champagne glass
Is this what the people of Bel-Air livin’ like,
Hmm this might be alright!

I whistled for a cab and when it came near the
Licensplate said “Fresh” and had a dice in the mirror
If anything I could say that this cab was rare
But I thought now forget it, yo home to Bel-Air

I pulled up to a house about seven or eight
And I yelled to the cabby “Yo, home smell you later”
Looked at my kingdom I was finally there
To settle my throne as the prince of Bel-Air

One more word to Brit Guy about Hoess: 1) The Russians under Stalin (or today for that matter) did not give a damn about Jews except to further Stalin’s ends. As for Hoess, he calmly and eloquently wrote about his crimes, from his own pen, prior to his execution; it hardly looks like duress. Furthermore; he wasn’t captured by the Russians; he was captured and executed by Polish partisans, who only tortured him at the end, by strangling him slowly. As for your chronologies, if they prove anything (they don’t) in fact Stalin and the USSR govt. recognized Israel first, in 1948, to win a propaganda victory over the US. Finally, wiki is at least as accurate as any of the sources you quote- its articles are vetted by historians and other experts; and you seemed to be just fine with it before I pointed out that it contradicted you. Sincerely, mackb

Mack, I’m not sure why you think I’m ‘against’ you on this issue. I’m merely suggesting that Israel, being as holy as they think themselves to be, should be the more moral of the area and perhaps do things that promote a peace in the area instead of creating more anymosities. It’s obvious to all of us the brutality of the Arabs towards others as well as each other as evidenced by iraq, pakistan, lebanon and now the civil war getting started in palestine. Something or someone is manipulating these people and playing them like the proverbial harp and the only way to effectively combat that influence is by following the teachings of the men of God that have been sent to us… moses, buddha, john the baptist,jesus, ghandy, mlk,mandela. What is it these men have in common?

Hey Makb,

Did you read the nytimes article about Cheney’s new plan to enter the Iraq civil war on the Shiite side with the aim of slaughtering every single Sunni? Thier reasoning: the Shiites outnumber the Sunnis anyway, so why not just side with the winners and start a new holocaust? Another benefit (they believe) of that policy: start a full scale mid-east war and since Sunnis outnumber Shiites in the mideast, maybe enough Shiite dead will be left at the end to topple the Iranian government. Clearly insane. But that’s what you get from the right wing gestapo that calls itself our government.

In case the implication is not there I’ll help you along: would you support a Sunni holocaust if it led to the toppling of the Iranian government?

1) wikipediaquotes from help pages

Don’t be surprised if other people edit your pages to adapt them to our policies. It’s OK to learn as you go along.

Wikipedia is not the place for original research.

2) Whatever the number of people that died it was wrong but then a number of other people that have been killed for soci/politi/religios purpose during various wars/cleansig is also wrong – but goes on

back to the main point why is it that we ,in the west, cannot discuss the holocaust and why is it that jews have this status?

The holocaust should be for all people that dies during this period ‘anything between 5 and 11 mill’ not just jews

Response to “Word” on Cheney,

Surely you don’t believe, or expect anyone else to believe what you just wrote.
What is this fuckin kindergarden storytime?
If Cheney said that it would have been played in the open media so many times by now we would be sick of hearing it,
If you heard this anywhere it probably WAS from the New york Times. Geez, consider the source.
But I think you made it up as typed it.
Either Way, Smells like bullshit.

MOTR

How much is Cheney paying you? The idea came from the vp office and Cheney explicitly denied it was his. However with this administration’s track record on the truth….

WOW… NOW THE TRUTH COMES OUT.

I SEE THE PROPAGANDA AGAINST ISRAEL HAS COME FROM.

YOU PEOPLE HAVE SOME VERY BAD INFO.

TRY STARTING WITH THE PALESTINE EXPLORATION FUND.

THEN MOVE ONTO MARK TWAINS TRAVEL LOG INNOCENTS ABROAD

THEN MOVE ONTO ARIYEH AVNERI’S BOOK CLAIM OF DISPOSESSION: JEWISH SETTLEMENT AND THE ARABS 1868-1948

ARABS ARE FROM ARABIA…

JEWS ARE FROM JUDEA…

VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT…

A FEW THOUSAND YEARS OF REALITY ARE MORE COMPLICATED THAN “ISRAEL TOOK ARAB LAND” BLAH BLAH BLAH CRAP CRAP CRAP… CHACK OUT MY POSTS ON MATT TAIBBI’S 101 WAYS TO LIE ABOUT AMERICA [OOPS I MEAN IRAQ]… FOR THE COMPLETE AND TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF SUCH PATHETIC ASSERTIONS.

GROW UP PEOPLE. KNOW YOUR ENEMY, AND IT IS NOT ISRAEL.

dat ze die pipo maar eens liqwideren