“…Henry Kissinger, the architect of America’s last failed war, the one in Vietnam…”

What a load of shit. Does RS have no shame at lying to promote it’s leftist views? The war in Vietnam was started by John Kennedy, and escalated by Lyndon Johnson, both democarts, and the architect was Robert McNamara. It was Nixon and Kissenger that got this country out of Vietnam. This just shows how the left will do anything and say anything to regain power.

You are entirely right about Robert McNamara and Johnson. The record on Kennedy is not so clear. A lot of people think that Kennedy’s refusal to escalate the war was what led to his undoing. Henry was merely the architect of the reprehensible intensification of the war to new levels of state sponsored terror and the incursion into Cambodia (a country full of innocent civilians not even really involved in the conflict). Also if you read into the details of this phase of the conflict, Kissinger had an under the table deal with China which favored their band of communist thugs in Cambodia over the VietCong thus starting in motion the events which led to the Pol Pot reign of terror and genocide. Kissinger, as you know, has a hard time traveling abroad now because he is wanted as an international criminal. Apparently we won’t ever have that problem again ..wink wink, nudge nudge…

If you want to speak ill of the Democratic party, online, for Millions to see…perhaps you should spell “Democrats” correctly.
At that juncture, we can begin discussing the validity of your arguments.

The moral outrage the rightists have so mastered is growing tedious unto mine ears.

Capitalist Pig, are you saying anyone that opposes your rightwing view, that ignorance is bliss, and the best intelligence the GOP has, is a leftist?
Kissinger is a war criminal that can’t travel the world on account of war advice on countries like South America. Where his wisdom made Pinochet what he was. Vietnam was just the starting point of his unpopular wars consulting, and a friend to the unpopular war leaders for a price.

While I don’t disagree with your statement of the facts Capitalist Pig (err.. that’s REALLY uncomfortable to say to be honest):

But are you telling me the Right is any better? I’m not arguing the Dem side of things here – but right now Bush and the Republicans in congress are saying *ANYTHING* they think will get them votes.

Including selling our troops down the river in Iraq, and just as bad (if not worse); potentially selling out our moral highground. Why is that important? We know terrorists only take prisoners to torture/kill them right?

Except Terrorists are hardly the be-all-end-all of conflict. Even if the war on terror ever succeeds – there will be other battles to fight; if we re-define our duties under the Geneva conventions; then why would another country feel *ANY* obligation to not treat our men with any sense of dignity?

I’m on the left; I admit it – but there’s a reason I respect men like John McCain too. What I’m getting at is – politicians in-general, are full of crap and we both know it. Both parties. They’ll both tar and feather eachother till the end of the day, and when its all done, who wins? Sure as hell not us.

It seems silly to try to frame the Iraq situation in terms of Vietnam. There is plenty to discuss with regards to Iraq (for example the 800-900 attacks per week), without muddying the waters by comparing to events in the late sixties. The discussion would benefit from focusing on the events at hand:

Was intelligence picked selectively to bolster public support for the war?

Was the invasion tied to 9/11? Why?

Have the reasons for going to war morphed over the years, in order to keep public support higher than it would be otherwise? Does this constitute untruthfulness?

Why is victory the only acceptable exit strategy?

What is the cost to America of this war? Both in monetary terms as well as other terms?

If the administration was less than completely honest about the reasons for going to war, is the administration continuing to be less than completely honest with the current situation and outlook?

…There is plenty more to discuss, and plenty that needs to be analyzed, without trying to put this war incorrectly into the same mold as Vietnam.

As history repeats itself, saving a country from dictatorship can really be a thankless job

Capitalist and TinFoil are both in error. Obviously JFK and especially LBJ led us into Vietnam. However, to describe Nixon as “the guy who got us out,” well, try explaining that to the 25K American soldiers who died for NOTHING under his commmand. He said he had a plan to end the war. He didn’t. The country was ready to get out, and Nixon didn’t lead us there. He created a series of fiascos.

Much like some future Republican president will do soon, barring Democratic election in 2008, when they claim mission accomplished in Iraq, when we could have simply left after Saddam fell, or, far better, never gone in.

San Franciscan: “If you want to speak ill of the Democratic party, online, for Millions to see…perhaps you should spell “Democrats” correctly.
At that juncture, we can begin discussing the validity of your arguments.”

You’re perfect? Glass houses.

He said something substantive while you merely revealed that that you’re an arrogant nitwit willing to waste everyone else’s time and who has nothing better too do then flame abot a speling err.

JFK and LBJ got us in. Nixon KEPT us in, killing 25K American soldiers in the process and strafing SE Asia. All for nothing. ALL of these guys screwed up massively. Bush manages to bring together all of the worst aspects of these men, minus their intelligence, and allows Iraq to be a candystore for politically connected folk (work for the Heritage Foundation? Never been more than a busboy? No problem, we’ve got a job for you running crucial infrastructure in Iraq!) One day a Republican will be forced to say that the whole thing was a mess and we must pull out. If he’s Nixon, he’ll wait 5 years.

Such a democracy as the Americans boast of, and yet everybody is moved there by guys who vie with each other on slogans such of war on terror, secutity of america, war on Islam etc., and there is scantly a handful of news channels in contrast to India, where almost all channels are geared to news and view

Peter

“JFK and LBJ got us in. Nixon KEPT us in, killing 25K American soldiers in the process and strafing SE Asia.”

Actually casualties under Nixon was aroung 21,000, which would be about 15,000 less than under Johnson.

“One day a Republican will be forced to say that the whole thing was a mess and we must pull out. If he’s Nixon, he’ll wait 5 years.”

Nixon waited five years, which would be 5 years quicker than LBJ who would not pull out.

Leftist-
“Capitalist Pig, are you saying anyone that opposes your rightwing view, that ignorance is bliss, and the best intelligence the GOP has, is a leftist?”

No, but this is a leftist attack piece on Bush, and it is a blatant lie to call Kissenger the “architect of the Vietnam War”. The fact is the US has been involved in Vietnam in some capacity since Truman.

Sad days for this country when arrogance and democratic fascism
are the rule of law. Kissenger is a problem from our past injecting his cancer into the future. There will always be fools who want to
“create their own reality” and this war is Bush’s Gilligan’s Island Bush had better turn around because Barney is about to give him a nasty bite.Boys should heed their father’s advice rather than listing to the drum beat of
Christian crusades.

In all fairness to Bush, before the U.S. invaded Iraq, it was damn near impossible and totolly unheard of to be able to get film footage of Kurds flogging themselves with chains at a religious ceremony. As that was the way Sadam religiously persecuted shiites and kurds, by denying them their barbaric rituals..
and the three together could deny the I.S. the satisfaction of bombing the shit out of their country.
gulf wars are one of those epics that american bands should have taken a closer look at before they decided on a balls out invasion.
And the right will give us money and help support us if we agree with their sunny outlook. Isn’t the only question we should ask ourselves is do we hate that they are covering up the truth more than money?

it was congress that got us out of vietnam. they stopped funding the craziness. Kennedy was murdered because he was pulling the advisors out, one plane load made it back. Johnson was a democrat of convenience, he was actually a puppet of the military industrial complex that wanted to build lots of hueys and sell napalm and agent orange. wars are always driven by greed and those mega corporations that stand to profit form the confusion.

The Vietnam War was fought from 1959 to 1975. John F. Kennedy did not become President until January, 1961.

Anonymous,
We didn’t get involved in Vietnam until 62.

Between 1945 and 1954, the Vietnamese waged an anti-colonial war against France and received $2.6 billion in financial support from the United States. The French defeat at the Dien Bien Phu was followed by a peace conference in Geneva, in which Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam received their independence and Vietnam was temporarily divided between an anti-Communist South and a Communist North. In 1956, South Vietnam, with American backing, refused to hold the unification elections. By 1958, Communist-led guerrillas known as the Viet Cong had begun to battle the South Vietnamese government.

To support the South’s government, the United States sent in 2,000 military advisors, a number that grew to 16,300 in 1963. The military condition deteriorated, and by 1963 South Vietnam had lost the fertile Mekong Delta to the Vietcong. In 1965, Johnson escalated the war, commencing air strikes on North Vietnam and committing ground forces, which numbered 536,000 in 1968. The 1968 Tet Offensive by the North Vietnamese turned many Americans against the war. The next president, Richard Nixon, advocated Vietnamization, withdrawing American troops and giving South Vietnam greater responsibility for fighting the war. His attempt to slow the flow of North Vietnamese soldiers and supplies into South Vietnam by sending American forces to destroy Communist supply bases in Cambodia in 1970 in violation of Cambodian neutrality provoked antiwar protests on the nation’s college campuses.

From 1968 to 1973 efforts were made to end the conflict through diplomacy. In January 1973, an agreement reached and U.S. forces were withdrawn from Vietnam and U.S. prisoners of war were released. In April 1975, South Vietnam surrendered to the North and Vietnam was reunited.

CONSEQUENCES:

1. The Vietnam War cost the United States 58,000 lives and 350,000 casualties. It also resulted in between one and two million Vietnamese deaths.

2. Congress enacted the War Powers Act in 1973, requiring the president to receive explicit Congressional approval before committing American forces overseas.

Jed Clampett -
The theory that Kennedy was withdrawing troops is a bunch of BS used to support conspiracy theories about the assination. Kennedy was murdered by Oswald was nut. You might try getting your history from someone besides Oliver Stone. In Oct. of 1961, a month before his assination Kennedy sent 16,000 troops to Vietnam.

“Now we have a problem in making our power credible and Vietnam looks like the place.” – JFK

If there is blame to cast in this discussion, it is not the right OR the left that should get it, since it is true what “CP” says….Johnson (D) did escalate the Vietnamese war to incredible levels and Nixon (R) “stayed the course” for far too long.

The heart of the matter in my opinion, is the military-industrial-corporate complex that Eisenhower warned us about (-that would come under the heading of “Money to be made”), and the almost total complacency of the American public regarding the actions of our leaders AND the media, and the education of our children. The politics are a distraction and a facade. Political campaigns, and now this war in Iraq are being waged in soundbites. Keep the public dumbed down and soundbites, generally, speaking, are good enough for them. Selective reporting has become the rule in 2006.

What got us out of Viet Nam was not Richard Nixon’s administration, it was a clobbering delivered at the hands of the North Vietnamese, and any student of history can verify that. By the time that last helicopter left the Saigon embassy, the direction the war had taken was obvious and irreversible. Vietnam had become (as has the Iraq war) a black hole for federal money that bought us nothing in terms of positive results. It is not politics that is at the bottom of this sort of debacle, it is money. Win, lose or draw, Haliburton and other companies like them win big. And yes….Haliburton was very much in the thick of things in Viet Nam.

Both Republicans now,and Democrats then tended to become Loyalists in large numbers…that is they put political ideology and the placement of blame above the welfare of their country. Let us be careful not to become a part of that. Neither war has produced any results that could be termed remotely positive, either at home or on the battlefield. Death, wasted money and Americans hating each others guts were the result then and they are the result now. Follow the money and it will show you where to place the blame. Big Money can orchestrate this sort of thing very very well.

I don’t see why some of you people seem to have such a problem admitting the Democrats were wrong on Vietnam. Party loyalty should never be more important than principle, and the Democrats were wrong on Vietnam.

George W. Bush lied to get us into a war, but he didn’t invent the trick. Lyndon B. Johnson lied to get us into a war, and he was a democrat. Hell, James K. Polk lied to get us into a war, and he was a Democrat.

In the meantime, the thing that is more important to me than which party was right on the issue of counterproductive foreign wars in 1971 is which party is right on the issue of counterproductive foreign wars today.

I was around (and an informed adult) in those days. The “nation building” in South Vietnam began under Eisenhower in response to the French leaving a divided Vietnam. That is when the CIA became involved against North Vietnam and when we began sending “military advisors.”

The paranoia about communism taking over the world was a large part of the reason for our involvement in the early days.

JFK upped it, but we were there already.

Colemanorth – You make some valid points, but you are wrong in one respect. We did not get clobbered by the North Vietnamese. We won ever major battle of the war, the war was lost on the home front, not the battlefield. And Nixon did negotiate the peace treaty that ended our involvement. By the fall of Saigon we were no longer engaged in the war. But my whole point in the first post was to point out that calling Kissenger the “architect” of the war is pure bullshit. And that was in no way a statement of support for Kissenger, just a fact.

Ho Chi Mien appealled to the American gov in ‘46 to help him rid his country of the French. We refused not wanting to offend our dear allie France. He then went to the communists for support. The South Vietnam was made up of French sy mpathizers who would have suffered under Ho.The Vietcong were the people in the south backing Ho.

Moving on from Iraq can be done with or without “stomach”.

Continuing, also, can be done with or without stomach, as demonstrated by the large number of Americans who realize things have gone wrong in Iraq, but don’t have the stomach to stand up and demand better of their leaders.

Continuing as we have, however, does require a lack of foresight and good sense, since at a minimum it requires one to not have noticed that the longer we continue in Iraq, the worse the situation gets by every form of measurement. The current approach to Iraq– if not the very presence of U.S. troops in the country– is a source of instability and deterioration, not improvement. If bringing (restoring?) “some semblance of a life” to Iraq is something America can do, it’s not what we’re doing right now.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time is the definition of *insanity*, not “stomach”.

kissinger is one of the worst people to ever have entered american politics.

Sorry to totally change the subject but I can’t let this one go:

“Kennedy was murdered by Oswald was nut. You might try getting your history from someone besides Oliver Stone.”

Not all history is truth Mr. Pig. Oswald was a patsy. Where do you think Oliver Stone got his information, from the ether? The Warren Commission was a bad joke, and the general knowledge about this fact led to the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1976, which tried to paint the whole thing as a mob conspiracy. Many of the events of the day of November 22, 1963 directly contradict the simplistic “lone nut theory”: too many to list here. Perhaps YOU should get your history from someone other than CBS.

An interesting point to be made, the credibility of Bob Woodward is off the scale. Why are we not trusting him, the country needs media help to show us what is really going on, and if anyone is the man to do it, ’tis Bob Woodward.
Recently 16 intelligence agencies concluded that insurgency and violence in Iraq and the Middle East in general has become worse than before the U.S. was occupying it. Pakistani intelligence recently concluded that factions of the former Taliban near the Pakistani border are more dangerous terrorists than Al Queda. Let us open our eyes to the facts here, get out before things become even more worse(which is the track we are taking) and concentrate on saving American lives, for the war in Iraq is blatently fruitless. Anyone can see that.

Capitalist Pig -

What a Nome du Plume! (or however that’s spelled!)

There is no way anyone with a knowledge of history could suggest that the United States came out of the Tet Offensive as anything but clobbered. It was at that point that even “Uncle” Walter Cronkite became critical of the conduct of the war. We weren’t driven into the sea, but we were in no way prepared for an attack so well orchestrated and in so many places at the same time! I know guys that were in the thick of it. We were in DEEP trouble, and the only thing that kept our troops from being overrun was our air superiority and the air strikes that were called in to keep that from happening; many times dropping ordinance mere tens of yards from American lines. We certainly did not “win” the Tet offensive.

Nixon may have negotiated the treaty that allowed our somewhat orderly withdrawl, but the handwriting was by that time all over the wall. The American public had been lied to repeatedly about the conduct of the war to the extent that even people who had once supported
it found themselves mistrusting the administration. Certainly the efforts on the home front were helpful in the ending of the war, but it took the exposure of an incompetant, secretive and deceitful administration to create an opposition strong enough to turn off the money to finance it.

And now we have the sequel….

“Where do you think Oliver Stone got his information, from the ether?”

The same place most movie scripts come from?

Did you think “The Matrix” was a documentary as well?

nyteme makes the most amazing statement (yesterday).

He/she says “Setting up a democratic base in the middle of the american hating Middle East…”

Perhaps that is EXACTLY the problem – the US government went into this adventure thinking of setting up a “base” – the combining of the words “democratic” and “base” is the entire key. Both words refer to entirely different, and quite opposed, concepts. Putting these two words together says more about the issue than anything else I’ve yet to hear about both Iraq, and the Bush cabal.

Another, perhaps more apt analogy is the last days of the Roman empire. At least Nero provided a little comic relief.

thank you proff an cole, very good dissertations, I agree wholehartedly.

hey ‘byte me’ they also said we’d be in an out in a couple of weeks, no plan to keep the peace was necessary. that the intelligence was a ’slam dunk’.
oh henny penny, several hundred thousand troops? that’s crazy we can do it with 50 thousand.
saddam has WMD and was involved in sept. 11 attacks.
etc. etc.
when your government is lying to you repeatedly and then takes away human rights saying that without taking away those rights they can’t protect us, then you should be very weary and perhaps impeach them. At the very least, deny them complete control of the 3 branches of government. They already have two that can not be changed at least until ‘08. Why do you think they forced Sandra Day Occonnor out?

colemanorth, the tet offensive was a defeat for the viet cong in every arena except the political one. its estimated that nearly 45,000 viet cong were killed, as opposed to about 4500 for american troops

its also noted that the viet cong could never effectively mount a large scale offensive ever again, due to the losses suffered

on iraq, i think a lesson can be learned from vietnam–if we just cut and run, it could very well lead to a power vacuum, like the one that arouse in vietnam, cambodia, and laos after american forces left. if one thinks the situation is bad now, wait until we suddenly pull out and surrounding nations(espescially iran) start to rip iraq apart

American People, You The People of The United States of America, follow the footsteps of Thailand and take back your country and save Your Constitution from those criminals sitting in Office. Don’t wait any longer. It might be our Only Hope. In the process, you will save all of us on this Earth.

Don’t any of you liberal left wing pukes come to Texas. What a bunch of crap, giving that P.O.S. Bob Woodward any credibility! Are you kidding, he works for the “old york post” a liberal rag that I wouldn’t even let my dogs urinate on. I can’t believe one of you loosers actually said that the Republican’s will say anything to get votes! The democrat’s invented that…did you hear all them saying over the last couple of weeks that they had Jewish bloodlines…even your star candidate Hilary said it…what a joke, her family has been pure blood Methodist for generations, how do you think she tolerates Bill?

Either way, I’ll enjoy my weekend on my 53′ power yacht in the Gulf of Mexico while you bleeding heart libs will be hugging trees or protesting at some stupid cause like saving whales…Good Luck!

Woodward actually worked for the Washington Post, continues to as well I believe. Get your facts straight. Keep burnin’ that gas to while it’s cheap. Or maybe we should start another war to raise the price again. How about that?

HairydumbmeanuglystupidTexan or whatever your name is: the world will be a better place when you no longer live in it

TinFoilHat -
Oliver Stone got his information from his immagination.

First off, there wasn’t a country called Iraq until the brits slapped together 3 provinces left over from the Turkish empire. In fact, the national currency for the first 3 or 4 yrs was the Indain Rubie. It didn’t work then and probaly never will.
I believe most are not seeing Iraq for what it really is…. A killing ground of extremist. The head of the terrorist group in Iraq made the public announcement that over 4,000 foreign terrorist have been killed since beginning of the invasion. Hmmmm, thats 4,000 less we have to wory about reaching our shores isn’t it?
Let’s be honest, if it wasn’t for the oil all these middle east countries have, would we really care about them?

Colemanorth

“The Tết Offensive can be considered a crushing military defeat for the Communist forces, as neither the Viet Cong nor the North Vietnamese army achieved any of their tactical goals. Furthermore, the operational cost of the offensive was dangerously high, with the Viet Cong essentially crippled by the huge losses inflicted by South Vietnamese and other Allied forces. Nevertheless, the Offensive is widely considered a turning point of the war in Vietnam, with the NLF and PAVN winning an enormous psychological and propaganda victory.”

Many people, both at the time and in retrospect, have criticized the U.S. media for the negative light in which it portrayed both the war in general and the Tết Offensive in particular. Earle Wheeler, then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, complained of “all the doom and gloom we see in the U.S. press” after Tết.

“The most famous example of an anti-war attitude on the part of an influential press figure was Walter Cronkite’s special report on the war of February 27, 1968. After touring the ruined streets and battlefields of the Tết Offensive and interviewing discouraged soldiers and officers in the field, he directly criticized the military leadership and the Johnson administration: “We have been too often disappointed by the optimism of the American leaders, both in Vietnam and Washington, to have faith any longer in the silver linings they find in the darkest cloud.” He concluded by saying that the U.S. was “mired in a stalemate” and called for a negotiated end to the conflict.”

There wass’t even a country called Iraq until the brits slaped together 3 provinces left over from the Turkish empire. For the first 3 or 4 years the national currency was the Idain rubie. It has never worked and probaly never will.
Most are not seeing Iraq for what it really is: A killing field of exreamist. The head of the terror group in Iraq recently made public that over 4,000 foreign terrorist have been killed since the beggining of the invasion. Thats over 4,000 that will never reach our shores.
Lets be honest, if it wasn’t for the oil these middle east countries have, would we really care about them?

HairyMeanTexan,
Welcome aboard! But don’t bother trying to kill these Liberals with Facts. They don’t understand that stuff.

“Oliver Stone got his information from his immagination.”

Oh, I’m mortally wounded now. Impaled by your savage wit.

Dear CP and Sasquatch -

And just what tactical goals did the US win in a battle widely seen as one of, if not the primary turning point in the Viet war?

The press was not “imbedded” or under corporate supervision in those days and Uncle Walter and other reporters called the war as it unfolded. We actually got to SEE what happened, and it was not a pretty thing at all. Those who criticize the press for not portraying the war in a more positive light generally fall into the “Loyalist” category. Ideology first, facts second. The war had become a VERY expensive debacle by then, and the Tet only reinforced that impression with the American people.

Don’t be naive…not all battles are won on battlefields. Tet was significant because it was the first time we had been set on our keesters in the Viet war, and it made people take a hard look at a campaign we had been told was going very well.

I say again…the true winners in that war or this one are the war profiteers. Viet Nam was ravaged, the death count of US servicemen and women was astronomical, the divisive and hateful politics we see today were born then and have grown to a level I could scarcely have have forseen even in the ’60’s when things were really poppin’.
Nobody won in Nam and nobody will win in the Middle East, except those selling the implements of war. We’re being taken for a ride down a road we ought to recognize by now.

Why are we talking about Vietnam? Why not talk about another revelation in Woodward’s book, namely that Condoleeza Rice ignored George Tenet’s warnings in the summer ‘01 that Al Quada was going to attack us. Puts those liars tarring Clinton in thier conservative propaganda “documentaries” to shame. Did Bush cause 9/11? Sure, by his own administration’s incompetence.

U.S. Military Budget 2005 according to CIA world fact book was 518,100,000,000 dollars, while the proposed budget for the 2007 fiscal year allocates 89.9 billion dollars to education. Whatever your political inclinations, I should sincerely hope that if you look at these numbers and you don’t feel slightly offended, or even if you immediately begin to justify this discrepency, then perhaps the discusion taking place should not be focused on the tradegy of the Vietnam war, but instead on how as a species we are so easily given to organize our societies to wage armed conflict on one another. After all, no historian could deny, that no other event in human history has mobilized human beings on such a profound and massive scale, than war itself.

Colemanorth -
We can debate who won or lost in ‘Nam forever. And it is pointless on this site. If you read my original post my only point was it is bullshit to say that Kissinger was the architect of Vietnam.

TinFoilHat

“Oh, I’m mortally wounded now. Impaled by your savage wit.”

Well you seem to think that JFK was a documentary.

No, it wasn’t a documentary. I notice that all you deniers center on the discrepancies added by Stone to move the plot (such as the addition of the Bacon Character: a composite of two or three actual witnesses) and totally ignore the wealth of valid information. Actually Stone based the larger part of the script on information from Jim Mars ‘Crossfire’. But if you’re just going to ignore any actual evidence, there’s no sense talking to you about it.

Do you think Woodward’s latest rag was timed to be released pre election?

Ladies and gentlemen, the “cut and run” Democrats present us with-
al Qaeda’s ‘Bill of Rights’!!!!!

Why are Democrats invested in America’s defeat? They want to undermine America’s role in its war on terrorism..

Iraq would never end… The number of fundamentalists has increased.
How many Iraqis or Muslims agree with America’s war in Iraq? Its the Iraqis who are most suffering casualties. All we ever hear about are American casualties, what about them? How many non-Americans agree with our aggressive foreign policy?

Its not a question of if we’re pulling out; we are, the question is when. Its a mess left for the next presidents.

“that Henry Kissinger has been advising Bush about Iraq” is bad news for almost
any Vietnam Veteran. It was Kissinger during his negotiations at Paris 1975
who worked out with North Vietnam those conditions of an exit strategy which ended in a chaotic situation.

so, trying to protect the constitution is considered protecting the enemy these days huh?
Do you not thing the founding fathers knew there would again be another type of war as they carried out. An insurgency with acts on military forces. Having to fight against a tyrannical ruler bent on amassing power and greed for his team. They wrote those rights to protect all of us from zealots ready to do anything to keep power in their hands. The right to bear arms is there for the people to protect themselves against their government from the tactics that are being allowed now. home invasions and absurd killing of the citizenry by a police force that suffers through no accountability. Is america turning into the new and improved version of 1930’s germany? Senator Byrd and others that have been around that long think so and have warned against it.

This post makes me angrier than anything RS has ever put out (and that’s saying something).

“Henry Kissinger, the architect of America’s last failed war…”

WRONG! SO FUCKING WRONG IT’S UNBELIEVABLE.

I studied the Vietnam War numerous times from all angles. The war in Vietnam was caused by LYNDON B. JOHNSON. America had troops in Vietnam as early as the late 1950’s. The escalation of the war took place between 1963-1969. THE SAME FUCKING YEARS JOHNSON WAS PRESIDENT. The vast, vast, majority of American deaths occured then. IT WAS 6 OR 7 YEARS INTO THE WAR WHEN NIXON AND HIS ADMINISTRATION WERE ELECTED. Under the Nixon administration, American ground troops were all but completely removed from Vietnam in an effort to stop the thousands of body bags being sent home every month due to Johnson’s decisions. Kissinger helped bring an end to the American occupation in Vietnam! In addition, through shuttle diplomacy, he eased nuclear tensions between America, China, and the Soviet Union, preventing a very possible nuclear war! He was the greatest Secretary of State in American history. Even the most liberal of liberal textbooks still approve of Kissinger. You are out of your fucking minds just lying to ignortant fools who know nothing about US history! This is the kind of propaganda that is ruining America, RS. I encourage any person reading this post to do your own research about Kissinger. 100 out of 100 people who would do this would find what RS said in the above quote to be complete and utter bullshit.

RS owes an apology to Kissinger and the readers of this article for it’s flat out lies. In addition, I want Robert Dreyfuss’ email so I can tell him what a horrible peace of scum I think he is.

I’m from Texas!! YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAW!! Ride em partner!! YIPPPPEEEE!! YAHOOOOO!!! It’s a buckin bronco!! POW! POW!

Do you think Woodward’s latest rag was timed to be released pre election?

Sure. How bout that “documentary” slandering the Clinton administration for not doing enough to catch Bin LAden? Just so happens when Bush was president actual FACTS-I know you cons hate them-come out about Condi Rice

Why are Democrats invested in America’s defeat? They want to undermine America’s role in its war on terrorism..

Do you think Woodward’s latest rag was timed to be released pre election?

Sure. How bout that “documentary” slandering the Clinton administration for not doing enough to catch Bin LAden? Just so happens when Bush was president actual FACTS-I know you cons hate them-come out about Condi Rice blowing off Tenet’s warnings of an impeding Quada strike. Are you gonna question this idiot “president” with the same zeal with which you went after Clinton? Bush is responsible for 9/11 for not doing enough.

Why are Democrats invested in America’s defeat? They want to undermine America’s role in its war on terrorism..

Republicans are interested in America’s defeat. They prove this by prolonging the Iraq war, which creates more terrorists and makes Americans less safe. Fighting them over there means more chance of they’re attacking over here. Oh yeah, and where’s Osama? Seems you cons are only interested in electing people who lose wars.

The problem with republicans is that they need someone to think for them…

Why oh Why are we there?
All I can see from these discussions is that everyone is against everyone else and that does not make any sense.

We know the CIA set Saddam up to be a puppet in that country
We know that the US and others – with US approval – supplied the gas and other material that he used on the internal population
We know that after the first gulf war saddam decided to trade his oil in euros – and that caused a problem for the US as it affected the value of the OILDOLLAR
We know that – unless someone sold him any – saddam did not have the capabilites to produce any WMD
We also know that there was no link between saddam and terrorist groups
We know that the ones that did do 9/11 were mainly saudis and they own several % of the US

The only reason that I can see that we went to war was that bush’snr told bush’jnr that he wanted to get rid of saddam because he did not do as he was told.
What is happening now is that the US is up to its eyballs in debt
The only ones that are making any money are people like Haliburton and the Carlise group and associates
I can go on about the facts of the cause of the war in Iraq but why?

Kissinger and Bush and other senior ‘establishment’ americans seem to be hell bent on bankrupting corporate america.

Did you know that China is bankrolling the US to a huge degree at the moment.

Get rid of the attitude that the west is the be all and end all of civilization.

well, now that we’re kennedy bashin’, how ’bout what they did to the diem brother’s…patrice lumumba, trujillio, and repeated attempts on mr. castro.
they really did have it bad, yes?

The people here don’t seem to get it, so I’m gonna have to take a page out of the Fox News playbook and repeat the same shit over and over until you idiots understand:

CONDI RICE IGNORED GEORGE TENET’S WARNINGS IN THE SUMMER ‘01 OF AN IMPENDING AL QUADA ATTACK.

CONDI RICE IGNORED GEORGE TENET’S WARNINGS IN THE SUMMER ‘01 OF AN IMPENDING AL QUADA ATTACK.

CONDI RICE IGNORED GEORGE TENET’S WARNINGS IN THE SUMMER ‘01 OF AN IMPENDING AL QUADA ATTACK.

The difference between me and Fox is that what I’m saying is actually true.

well wrench, you could also use:

Sudan offered bin laden to clinton and he said no

Clinton had a chance to get bin laden in afghanistan, but didnt

when the embassies in africa and the cole was bombed, clinton, again, did next to nothing

so, to say that the current administration is totally at fault is a farce

blame, at the very least, lies on both sides, to a degree

Of course Bush couldn’t go after Bin Laden
President George W. Bush’s father works for Carlyle; so does former Defense Secretary Frank C. Carlucci, whose close friend Donald H. Rumsfeld now runs the Pentagon; and so does a stellar cast of retired generals and Cabinet secretaries, including former Secretary of State James A. Baker III.

George H.W. Bush, the father of President Bush, works for the bin Laden family business in Saudi Arabia through the Carlyle Group, an international consulting firm.” The senior Bush had met with the bin Laden family at least twice in the last three years – 1998 and 2000 — as a representative of Carlyle, seeking to expand business dealings with one of the wealthiest Saudi families, which some experts argue, has never fully severed its ties with black sheep Osama in spite of current reports in a mainstream press that is afraid of offending the current administration.

The Nation, on March 27, 2000 – in a story co-authored by David Corn and Paul Lashmar – wrote, “In January former President George Bush and former British Prime Minister John Major paid a social call on Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Abdullah…” This story confirms at least one meeting between the elder Bush and Saudi leaders, including the bin Ladens. That the bin Ladens attended this meeting was confirmed in a subsequent September 27, 2001 Wall Street Journal (WSJ) story. The January 2000 meeting with the bin Ladens was also later confirmed by Bush (the elder’s) Chief of Staff Jean Becker, only after the WSJ presented her with a thank you note sent by Bush to the bin Ladens after that meeting.

James Baker visited the bin Ladens in 1998 and 1999 with Carlyle CEO Frank Carlucci.

The WSJ story went on to note, “A Carlyle executive said that the bin Laden family committed $2 million through a London investment arm in 1995 in Carlyle Partners II Fund, which raised $1.3 billion overall. The fund has purchased several aerospace companies among 29 deals. So far, the family has received $1.3 million back in completed investments and should ultimately realize a 40% annualized rate of return, the Carlyle executive said.

“But a foreign financier with ties to the bin Laden family says the family’s overall investment with Carlyle is considerably larger…”

In other words, Osama bin Laden’s attacks on the WTC and Pentagon, with the resulting massive increase in the U.S. defense budget have just made his family a great big pile of money.

More Bush connections appear in relation to the bin Ladens. The WSJ story also notes that, “During the past several years, the [bin Laden] family’s close ties to the Saudi royal family prompted executives and staff from closely held New York publisher Forbes, Inc. to make two trips to the family headquarters, according to Forbes Chairman Caspar Weinberger, a former U.S. Secretary of Defense in the Reagan administration. ÔWe would call on them to get their view of the country and what would be of interest to investors.’”

President G.H.W. Bush pardoned Weinberger for his criminal conduct in the Iran-Contra scandal in 1989.

Our current President, George W. Bush has also had — at minimum — indirect dealings with Carlyle and the bin Ladens. In 1976 his firm Arbusto Energy was funded with $50,000 from Texas investment banker James R. Bath who was also the U.S. investment counselor for the bin Laden family. In his watershed 1992 book, “The Mafia, The CIA and George Bush,” award winning Texas investigative journalist Pete Brewton dug deeply into Bath’s background, revealing connections with the CIA and major fraudulent activities connected with the Savings & Loan scandal that took $500 billion out of the pockets of American taxpayers. A long-time friend of George W. Bush, Bath was connected to a number of covert financing operations in the Iran-Contra scandal, which also linked to bin Laden friend Adnan Khashoggi. One of the richest men in the world, Khashoggi was the arms merchant at the center of the whole Iran-Contra scandal. Khashoggi, whose connections to the bin Ladens is more than superficial, got his first business break by acting as middle-man for a large truck purchase by Osama bin Laden’s older brother, Salem.

It’s sickening to see how ex and current politicians have a stake to make lots of money from war and instability. IMHO they should be put to death… wait, better yet, they should be stripped of all their wealth and forced to live like paupers in the inner cities. Perhaps then they would understand the damage they cause with their greed.

How long do you think it will be till the Chinese realize how overstretched we are militarily and attack taiwan and take it over.

Did you see how India accused the Pakistani intelligence services of assisting in the multiple bombings of trains in India a few months ago? How about some mushroom clouds there “A” condy?

munky-
clinton missiled a bin ladens camp and hit NOTHING!

it was merely a show of force so that clinton could say he did something

btw, its a good point though that at least clinton tried, but he FAILED

and if i remember correctly, bush was preocupied because the democrats were contesting his election via hanging “chads” and whatnot

so you are wrong for simply making bush the blame for everything when clinton sat by for 8 years and only launched one missile attack

my point is this–im and equal opportunity offender, and i’ll happily blame bush for not being alert to an attack

but to say that clinton gets away scot clean is not true, he and bush are both at fault, and it shows your bias for only wanting to blame bush

Henry Kissinger? Who’s next – Shemp?

good! kissinger is a war criminal so now he can advise bush on how to avoid international tribunals like the ones in gitmo for himself and all the other neocons. the trials will be illuminating and help america regain international credibility. but even if they don’t? they’ll at least put these rotten bastards away for life where they belong.

I’m very impresed with British Guy. Some of you folks should stop strutting and crowing and start reading. Try to put your ego on hold for a moment. Don’t worry it’ll be there when you get back. BritGuy surpasses the rest of you in content. Listen.

I was in ‘my prime’ during Viet Nam. When it began it was my belief that this country would not involve itself in such activities, a euphamism for war, unless it was warranted (read morally justified). There were polemic cries back then, even as now, but quiet, measured people don’t respond to them. I didn’t, at first. That some/most of them were right is of no great importance. It a country of 250 million souls, it’s not hard to find espousers of a particular positon. Perhaps they had insight, but that is not enough to change the course of events. But, the body of evidence grew and, in time, most began to see what a morass had evolved and, more importantly, what little good our participation was doing.

In our Civil War, ‘others’ had the good taste, sense or diplomacy to refrain from participating. This country would do well to reflect on that. Anyone who thinks this country got involved in Viet Nam to help the folks there, take a step back, we’ll get back to you. Anyone who thinks this country is involved in Iraq to help the folks there, join those others. It doesn’t take much historical reference to discover that seldom does this country get ‘involved’ save for it’s own benefit. Ask Spain. Ask Mexico. Hmm, as an aside, we’ve never molested Canada. No latin influence? Nothing to gain? Some of both.

Greed and intolerance took us to Nam and Iraq. The two are inseperable. That which attracted our lust and that which we are intolerant of may or may not be similar in the two scenarios, but the emotions prevail. The fact that there are no christian/caucasians on ‘the other side’ in either case is, also, of some interest as well.

Read history. Read BritGuy. Think. Of the almost 300 million sweaty bodies in this country, who benefits from our involving ourself in, first, Viet Nam and, second, Iraq? You and me? I don’t think so. Rich white guys? You tell me.

Things are as simple as they seem. If you know the facts.

Many thanks gentlemen for the history lesson. Seldom do we get to hear a well spoken (written) account from those that actually lived it. My many thanks for your candor and objectivity. Wish our politicians were as astute as yourselves.
May God Bless us all and hope we can try to vote ourselves out of this mess. I know it will take time and more sacrifice hopefully ppl with brains will vote this time.

Just a question- if the american pres cannot change during war and we are in the war on terror does that mean bush will be there forever?

Nobody needs to incite riots etc – check out ghandi

The main issue that I can see is the use of ’spin’ to justify this and that.
The people never get the unvarnished truth – Quote ” Truth – you can’t handle the truth”

They are worried that if they cannot ‘maintain’ the way of life that the ‘dear peepul’ expect then they will not be in power

Vietnam was a bad ‘war’ – wasn’t even a true war at first as i recall – only became a war 20 years after

Sigh.
So much shit about a war that is 40 years old. Vietnam is over. Iraq is not. Get your shit together.

The central question is which party is better able to wage the war on terror? Democrats or Republicans?
Republicans hate facts and rightly so, because unfortunately for them the facts show that Democrats have a better chance of winning the war on terror than do Republicans.

Here’s the scorecard: Clinton attempts to kill Bin Laden with all the zeal of an elected president. He bombs Bin Laden and oversees worldwide sanctions on Afghanistan in an attempt to get Bin Laden shipped into u.s. custody. Clinton tries to kill the fucker but doesn’t succeed.

Bush comes into office heavily briefed by the Clinton administration whose words went something like: Al Quaeda is the gravest threat you’ll face.
Bush does nothing, saying he doesn’t want to go after small fish.
His NSA asvisor, Condi Rice, then COMPLETELY IGNORES WARNINGS FROM GEORGE TENET THAT AL QUAEDA WILL STRIKE.
Scorecard? Bush did less than nothing, he appeased the terrorists by allowing thier attacks to happen on u.s. soil without trying to stop them.

So for you fucks that like to point out that Clinton FAILED. At least he tried. Not like your retarded, redneck, alchoholic, evangelical fuck Bush, who decided on his own that God’s will didn’t involve trying to kill the man who bombed the u.s. cole. The same guy who sat around on his Texas ranch clearing brush while Osama was finalizing the 9/11 details.

The truth could not be clearer: democrats did more to stop 9/11 than republicans. democrats did more to stop the retarded invasion of iraq than republicans. both issues are the only reasons Americans are questioning thier security. I’d vote for a democrat over a pedoophile, war mongering, war losing, corrupt Republican any day.

British Guy, are you also Kaich II? I believe my comments were addressed to his post.

NTinFoilHat I am not Kaich II

Sorry if you have taken offence at what I have posted – I was just adding my thought’s to the general disscussion which is what I thought these posts are about

I read your post and thought that it was a very good disertation on the state of US politics at the current time

If this is what the administration is trying to ‘export’ (democracy) then I am not sure that this is a good thing for the world

No offense, I was just wondering. It seemed that he was advocating violent response by saying “why don’t you rise up”. But I wasn’t sure. I was willing to discuss.

oh brit, that was a good cartoon, if any one else wishes to follow the link, cut and paste into your browser, delete the space between c and omics and delete the pct20 after the dash.
to paraphrase Al Gore who was quoting someone else… ‘if a person’s paycheck depends on them not understanding a principle or science, they won’t’

BritishGuy,
also, I agree that this isn’t democracy for the world. Of course when Bush says it, you know its a lie. He doesn’t really want worldwide democracy. For proof of this statement reference Palestine and Iraq (democratically elected leaders that the US doesn’t like). What he really wants is economic Hegemony. Hugo Chavez has been painted as a nut in the US press, but you can see when the press is disingenuous: they never attack his actual arguments, just his bombastic humor.

Understood Tin – No worries
Unfortunatly in this world there are people that believe that violence can produce a better place
Thanks Jed – sorry about the link but it seems to be the way the post system works

agreed – Hegemony seems to be the nearest description – but only applied to ones that publicly stand up to Bush administration

I am still trying to get a handle on what is the ‘war on terror’ tho
How can one attack an idea with military force apart from trying to surpress the people that have it? And we know where that can lead

Did anyone catch the Clinton address at the british labour conferance? Apart from the support of the labour party (had to) what he said was very relevent to the current state of politics in general. It’s a shame that the people in power forget that ordinary people put them there in the first place.

Then as has been said ” power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly “

Hmmm – just had a thought
Ever heard of the Olduvi theory by Richard Duncan?

Most of the governments that Bush Admin is against are oil producers or have land that is required to transport oil/gas ( pipelines)

If Bush etc. are working on the assumption that the Olduvai theory is good then I can understand why he appears to be targeting these countrys. He needs to maintain his power base i.e. support from the people and the only way is to provide the comfort they expect.
Also making such vast sums of money will allow him and his cronies to survive such a collapse in the level of civilization.

maybe be I am just being cynical

British Guy,
Lillie Thomlin, “I try to be cynical but its so hard to keep up!”
Do you read the Independent? We liberals here in the states always assumed that it was all about keeping the oil going. Greg Palast in his new book claims that it may indeed be about turning OFF the spigot. This idea sort of blew my mind, but it makes sense. Less available oil = bigger price. Last year Big Oil had their best year ever. Makes me think…

BritishGuy | 10/1/2006, 2:55 am EST

Just a question- if the american pres cannot change during war and we are in the war on terror does that mean bush will be there forever?

————-

W here do you get the idea that the the President cannot change during war? Licoln faced re-election during the Civil War, and Roosevelt faced it during WWII. Both were re-elected but still had to face a challenger. Bush cannot serve another term, war or not.

“Where do you get the idea that the the President cannot change during war?”

Maybe he was confusing that with right-wing attackers in the 2004 election calling Kerry a trader because he dared to critisize Bush during a ‘time of war’?

Wow, now that’s what I call a decent, relevant discussion. Having said that Vietnam and Iraq differ greatly and while we can look at the two wars side by side and learn, they aren’t the same at all. We should look at the entire situation from a new perspective instead of blaming one side or the other. Maybe this war and Vietnam are in fact a direct reflection of our nation’s leaders and people’s outlook on the world. Last time I checked the only Senator that voted against the war or the Patriot Act was Russ Feingold. All the other “Dems” caved or rather beleived Cheney’s “liberators” bullshit. Neither side should question the other’s moral integrity because neither major party has one iota. Until this two party system is broken up things will continue downhill. We should all appreciate the time we have to enage in open discussion. It won’t exist for much longer from the way things look at the moment. Having said that the American people when united are pretty damn near unstoppable. Maybe we could use that power to do something positive instead of letting the military industrial complex start dead end wars. Ideas?

Yeah, that’d be great alright. Pretty much everything they can do with oil can also be done with vegetables. The most efficient for this purpose is actually Canabis. Some think that the reason pot was made illegal in the early fourties is that the Oil Barons knew this. Sounds as reasonable as any other reason I can think of.

Ben

For all the problems this country has, it’s the best thing going right now. There isn’t room in this forum for a dissertation on how the character of this country was formed. Just consider that it was created during the Age Of Enlightenment and let your imagination go from there.

If you put enough humans together and you eliminate the fear of extinction, politics will naturally ensue. Perhaps politics comes just after the discovery of salvation. At any rate, it is in the natural progression of things. I realize a totalitarian regime would seem to stifle politics, but only superficially. Politics continues at the job, at the church, at home, anywhere humans collect.

And the two party system in this country is all about politics. And is the source of much ranting and raving and gnashing of teeth by the populace, not unlike the emotions expressed towards referees. I don’t believe there’s an option. I believe physical laws are at play here. Action/reaction, polarity; stuff like that. Moreover, the system has worked, sortta, for 200+ years so I guess it’s off probation now. On a positive note, the two-party system is so vexing, it keeps the national consciousness focused.

As for the Senators voting for the Patriot Act, I was saddened but cut them a little slack. It’s pretty tough (fatal) to stand up against a stampede. And right after reproduction, survival is the strongest urge.

Romantic literature aside, I believe we would like U.S. Senators to possess considerable pragmatism. A flash of emotion from time to time is appreciated/admired, but in this day and age you can never tell if it’s sincere or just styling. I believe Feingold’s a stand-up guy and was sincere.

Politics has been defined in many ways. According to Heywood, politics is ‘The activity through which people make, preserve and amend the general rules under which they live’ (Heywood 1997: 410). According to Davis et al., ‘Politics is the process by which the structure, process and institutions are brought to a decision [including non-decisions] or outcome. It is an endless activity; while politics operates, all decisions [and non-decisions and actions] are provisional’ (Davis et al., 1988: 61). So politics means no decision or action is final. All decisions and actions of a government or institution of the state is open to question and is up for debate and argument and is, ultimately, subject to change.

That works for me.

speaking of hollywood… i love this line… ‘…politicians are alot like diapers, they should be changed often and for the same reason’

can’t wait to see that robin williams movie.

hey guys try this goggle

BANNA NAZI

Less available oil = bigger price. Last year Big Oil had their best year ever. Makes me think…

This year oil prices drop right before an election. Makes me think…

First “Fiasco”, then “The Greatest Story Ever Sold” and now this one from Woodward? All this is commendable to be sure but where were their journalistic balls back in 2004 when a crisp portrayal of this administration could’ve had a manifested impact?

Oh, right, Woodward was pushing “Plan of Attack”-you know, the book where Curious George got to star in his own Tom Clancy novel. Thanks Bob.

BritishGuy,
BANANAZI:
VERY Interesting… Not sure if I completely buy it yet. I’ll need to research, but its an idea that had never occurred to me before. Hmmmm.

By the way, the Bush family has their own Nazi roots. Google Prescott Bush (George HW’s dad) and see what comes up.

Thanks TinHat and Brit for the searches. Helps me understand the situation alot better. Damn it looks bleak. :/

It’s sad that these rich guys that govern us have such a vested interested in making war and industry raiding the treasury.
Remember when Monopolising any industry used to be looked down upon? Why is it when the republicans take over all those types of advances are tossed by the wayside?

Jed, Sociology 101, power corrupts. Hmmm, prez, congress and supreme court. And no Ruskies to contend with. I call that power.

Yes sir, you are very right with the power corrupts statement.

Unfortunatelly the guys up on the hill are so ate up with corruption they don’t see what is coming. they are too interested in making themselves and their buddies rich to realize they are making the country weak.

When you’re gorging at the trough and wolfing it down as fast as you can, lest someone else get ‘yours,’ it’s a little difficult to take note of surroundings.

Given that, I doubt it would make much difference. I believe that once a person turns the corner and concedes to greed, their defense mechanisms kick in to rationalize all abhorent behavior. And let’s not kid ourselves. We’re all born with a moral compass and know the difference between right and wrong.

Yeah raitonalization – It’s amazing how people can convince them selves “it’s justifed therefore it’s good”

A kick back at the oil industry is the class action by Calif. against the motor industry – wonder hows that gone down on the hill

BritGuy,
Very interesting! Seymore Hersch has been saying this about Iran for awhile now. He thinks that they are just waiting for the november election to be over before taking action. He’s been right before. As to the Opium production. Business as usual for the US Intelligence agencies. The CIA has always financed itself partially by dabbling in drugs. See Operation Condor for south and central America, and Air America for Vietnam.

jonny

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