Yes it was stolen — but you got what you deserved. If Americans continue to allow the likes of GWB and DeLay to rise into power through dirty politics they shouldn’t complain.

So what are we going to do about it? Are we going to just sit around on this one also? Hope to see you ALL in the streets! Power to the People.

Hard to FIX an issue like this when the GOP state-controlled electorate are in the trenches assuring yet another GOP “win”. Why isn’t the NEWS media all OVER this story ?

What I like about all this is that Americans are trying to bring democracy to the rest of the world!

Oh, my. Vote suppression again! Actually, if you look at the State of Ohio Web site, you’ll find that about 20% more votes were cast in 2004 than in 2000. Only in America is it called “vote suppression” when record numbers of votes are cast (Florida 2000).

As for the 2000 election, you know, if Al Gore had carried his *home state* of Tennessee, he’d be president today.

Face it. John Kerry lost, fair and square.

Having been stationed in Palm Beach County (Theresa Le Pore’s beachead)as a volunteer during the 12 sun scorching days of early voting in 2004 I can assure you that EVERYTHING that is detailed in this specific article brought back memories of what I experienced during those intense days of voters participating in the “process’” From terrorist threats to people impersonating Homeland Security personnel to the 5-6 hour waits daily, watching Democrats crying as they had to leave lines to get to work with no other time available to come back. People who had inqired about absentee ballots repeadetly through the summer, votes on touch screens pushed for Kerry flipping to Bush….yes, it was all reported to us on the outside. With people’s names and phone numbers willingly given in case we could do anything about it later. It was an eye opening experience that has dampened my belief that legitimate electoral processes are in place today. But the outcries are being treated the same as every other fraudelent tactic that has been perpetrated by this very organized cabal. We are not organized enough to combat this. We are too self absorbed and waiting for our votes to make a difference. After this article like so may others, if people aren’t moved to stand up and be vocal in every STREET in America then we will get everything we deserve……and then some. I’ve been out there since Nov 3rd, how about you?

America feels more and more like a bananna republic. Growing concentration of wealth and power based upon manipulation and fraud, and a sence of helplessness among the more insightful that ordinary people can use politics to improve their lives. I am afraid that Kennedy’s article will have an unintended consequenc if it languishes in Rolling Stone: what is the point of donating money or time to the political process when the powers-that -be can just choke you off in the trenches? Sadly, for an individual voter the rational response is “pick up my guitar and play, just like yesderday, and then get on my knees and pray: we dont get fooled again!” Prayers will not cut it. For change we need two things: an opposition that is moved beyond rationality, and tools more steely than prayers. I am sufficiently irrational, but what are the right tools?

I live in Oh. Virtually all the claims first brought out about voter fraud have been discredited. There were some long lines because of high turnout, but that was pretty much all over. Nobody I’m aware of had any problems and I’m in heavy Dem area – Cleveland.

Too bad RFK jr isn’t a bit more like his old man. Kerry came close but his effort is cheapen by all the whiners.

I think GWB know he was not going win so he play dirty like he always do

I’m a mexican national living in the U.S (legally), and the truth is we know a thing or two about electoral fraud, and yes, in 2000 and 2004 there WAS electoral fraud in the U.S.! I think the problem is many Americans simply can’t belive this could happen in their country.
Besides taking to the streets, lets get the U.N to inspect our elections! And why isn’t the vote more like 10%-90% against bush?!

When your father, brother, mother, or child is laying dead in front of you killed by someone in Iraq, just “face it” they got what they did because they were sent there by your president to do his dirty work, fair and square.
Think about that and face it, Gore and Kerry lost.
What an idiot you are.

Isn’t it obvious that the winner is “selected” long before election day?

Think back to Poppy Bush in ‘92…Bubba ripped him in the debates and he did nothing to defend himself…he even checked his watch…hahaha…setup…

If you look at what has been going on since 1980, it could be said that the Bush family has been in control of the executive branch for over 25 years…if Hillary or Jeb wins in 2008 they will continue their control…

I think all that really matters is that we make sure all the elections in Iraq and Afghanistan are fair and balanced. Why would we here in the United States of America concern ourselves with a fair and balanced election, here?

I’m a resident of northeast Ohio who’s been in a state of outrage for the past 20 months over the “irregularities” that went on here before, during and after the 2004 election. After reading Mr. Kennedy’s chilling article I’ve gone from outrage to despair because what he’s described goes far beyond what’s been reported on by the MSM here in Ohio. There isn’t a doubt in my mind that Mr. Kennedy’s well-documented article is true … my despair comes from the fact that people all over Ohio, including Dennis Kucinich, apparently know some or all of what happened here and absolutely nothing has been done about it. In fact, as Mr. Kennedy points out, Ken Blackwell is now running for governor and he has steadfastly refused to step aside as our Chief Elections Officer. After reading Mr. Kennedy’s article there isn’t a doubt in my mind that Ken Blackwell will do the same things this November that he did in 2004, except that this time he won’t be handing Ohio to George Bush, he’ll be handing Ohio to himself. Blackwell is already stonewalling Green Party candidates who have submitted more than twice the number of petition signatures to get on our November ballot. In fact, Blackwell is refusing to even acknowledge or count the petitions and the reason is pretty obvious. The Green gubernatorial candidate would be Bob Fitzrakis, one of the
best-known and most outspoken critics of how Blackwell handled the Ohio 2004 election. To quote Harvey Wasserman:

“As a certified candidate with full legal standing, Fitrakis has pledged to escalate the Green campaign to unearth more of what really happened in Ohio 2004. As an attorney, Fitrakis’s ability to drag the Secretary of State into court could be more than Blackwell wants to tolerate.”

I wish I knew what in the world it’s going to take to stop Ken Blackwell … who would have thought he would beat Ohio’s Republican attorney general by a comfortable margin in our May 2 primary? I’ve already emailed Ted Strickland’s campaign headquarters urging them to read Mr. Kennedy’s article and make the facts part his campaign against Blackwell but who knows if they’ll have the stones to do it.

I may be in despair but I’m also extremely grateful to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. for the extraordinary amount of work that he and others must have done to research this article. Thanks also to Rolling Stone for having the courage to publish it!

The winners say face it Bush won and the rest of us say no he did not. But without the media’s support as well as congress, it is hard to do anything about it. That being said, I vote absentee and this year I have started to make a copy of my ballot.

To the person who posted this:

“Anonymous | 6/2/2006, 11:06 am EST

Oh, my. Vote suppression again! Actually, if you look at the State of Ohio Web site, you’ll find that about 20% more votes were cast in 2004 than in 2000. Only in America is it called “vote suppression” when record numbers of votes are cast (Florida 2000).

As for the 2000 election, you know, if Al Gore had carried his *home state* of Tennessee, he’d be president today.

Face it. John Kerry lost, fair and square.”

He must serve your purpose, but when he through trashing the constitution, spying on Americans and lying as The President of the United States, you will be saying, Oh my god they were right, if you don’t then you are as stupid as your post!

This article should be sent to everyone in congress and the media and ask what are you going to do about it?

Both the 2000 and 2004 elections were probably stolen, but that was really just insurance. The Democrats handed both elections to the GOP. If they would have had a sound platform in either case, the vote count would not have been close enough for fraud to have worked.

Thank you to RFK, Jr. and to Rolling Stone. It’s about time. This story has been out there since the night of the election, just as Kennedy points out. I have been reading about it and talking about it with friends and family ever since. What has been baffling me since those days is the eagerness of the media, the Congress and the public to accept without questioning!!! Most people understand how easy it is for hackers and others to manipulate computer programs. After all, the press did report prior to the elections that an owner of one of the Electronic Voting Machine Companies in Ohio said he ‘was going to deliver the election to GWB.’ These are not outrageous claims that Kennedy and others are reporting. Just because this is America doesn’t mean we or our system are immune to corruption. Voting is at the core of all of our basic rights. If there is the slightest doubt that our right to vote is being sabotaged, we should be questioning all possible injustices exhaustively.

There’s a reason the usual GOP talking points even seen in this blog never go to the lack of system integrity — and always name call the questioners “sore losers.” Their “victory” really doesn’t stand up to scrutiny and they always attack on their weakest points. They depend on the fact that few Americans understand technology or statistics well enough to see the crime right before their eyes.

Aside from the outright disenfranchisement Blackwell caused in Ohio, there’s a reason that Diebold machines were programmed to accept instructions from inserted memory cards that allows vote totals to be changed without a trace. This story is sooo much bigger than the obvious election fraud in Ohio.

All the evidence of criminal fraud has long been there for anyone with curiousity to find out. A powerful PR campaign combined with media collusion are the reasons that the Bush fascists were able to steal Florida in 2000, Georgia in 2002, and Ohio in 2004. The blogs have long known what Rolling Stone is just now reporting.

Since we’re finally seeing just how evil and anti-democratic the Bush regime is, perhaps we’re getting ready for other unconvenient truths:

Will someone please explain why NORAD stood down on 9/11 and how HOW COULD 9/11 HAVE POSSIBLY HAPPENED IF IT WASN’T AN INSIDE JOB?

Excellent article. I’ll be forwarding it around.

I believe it was Henry Kissinger who pointed out that “revolutionary powers” reject the legitimacy of the current system – but people “find it nearly impossible to take at face value the assertion of the revolutionary power that it means to smash the existing framework.”

Paul Krugman make a compelling case, in “The Great Unravelling” that the Republicans in power are a revolutionary power. They’re dismanteling American Democracy – but we can’t quite believe it’s happening.

Kennedy is right: the election was stolen by top Republican officials. But unless attorneys are hired to indict them for Election Crimes, nothing will happen. Kennedy is a great environmental lawyer himself. He ought to know that we are faced with a totalitarian takeover of our Government, but he is in a state of denial, like most Americans. The Republicans have merged corporations, the military and Church Hatred into the most dangerous force that ever existed. Not one thing done in the last six years has been able to stop them. Their finger is on the nuclear arsenal. The next invasion, which the military is already in a state of readiness for, is a nuclear attack on Iran, which is being propagandized with the same lies they used before the U.S. genocide and permanent occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. The two “mirror-image” military attacks on September 11, 2001, were a hijacking by members of Al Qaeda, then a secret government network in the CIA and Pentagon committing a military attack on its own country, by commandeering the highjacked planes with remote control devices that were previously placed in the back of the cockpits. This act served six purposes: to enrich the members of the government network; to make sure that the first two planes hit the Twin Towers, after which they were destroyed in 10 seconds, by remote control demolition; to use an alternate way of “attacking” the Pentagon that would do no real damage; to murder the passengers in all four planes; to ever after instill fear of “terrorism” in the American people and the people of the world; and to destroy the U.S. Constitution and our democracy. Having the courage to tell the truth is a wonderful strength of Mr. Kennedy, but having the courage to move from a state of denial to fighting the totalitarian government we now live under, issuing indictments for Election Crimes and attacking the Republican criminals on the federal, state and local level, is the only possible way to stop them. The U.S. Republican Dictatorship is the most dangerous force that ever existed. It is committing a nuclear attack on the whole Middle East, and threatening nuclear attack on every country on the planet. Most Americans are “good, Nazi-Americans.” Torture, genocide, imprisonment for life without charge, are not on their conscience. The only immorality being discussed is the high price of gas and “the way the war is being handled.” This is the darkest era of American history.

If this isn’t a wake-up call, I don’t know what is. It’s not enough to volunteer idealistically to be “observers”. You need to be organized. You need to have a team, and you need to have the balls to actually lay hands on someone if you see them attempting fraud. Hell, let the cops come. When fraud is this easy to get away with, is it any wonder it happens?

And just listen to the apologists — they clearly either haven’t read the article, or choose straw man arguments that aren’t even in it to “discredit” the entire thing. They mention JFK in Illinois in 60, as though electoral fraud is somehow okay if someone ELSE did it too. Republicans — take a moral stand. Election fraud is wrong whether perpetrated by a democrat in NY or a republican in Nevada!

Unless you seriously think democracy is best served by making voting as difficult as possible, unless you think that your ideas could never win in a fair fight — stand up and say “this is bulls***!!! every american should be able to vote as easily as possible, and no one — NO ONE — should interfere with that vote being fairly and clearly counted!”

When you have lemons, make lemonade.

One good thing to happen is that dubya has been exposed as an incompetent boob.

Are you kidding me? If there was a story here, it would have been pursued by the media long ago (they have no love for Bush). Kerry snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, its over, you lost fair and square, the people spoke and the majority picked Bush.

Quit crying over 2004 and get yourselves ready for 2006 and 2008. Whining is what 2 year olds do.

I would scrutinize those sources before swallowing them whole.

This article should be in science fiction. Just more cud for the conspiracy cows to chew on. Of course it is written by RFK, Jr. He is a bright beacon of credibility. There’s no agenda here is there? Its hilarious when a Kennedy, whose family came to power via criminal activity (bootlegging and mobsters) and whose members are murderers (uncle Teddy, cousin Michael Skakel and probably RFK, Sr.), rapists (cousin William Kennedy Smith), drug addicts (cousin and congressman Patrick) and liars (all of them) , accuse others of illegalities.

The name calling and canned talking points by GOPers out here is pathetic. Not one line item refuted. Just a bunch of shallow, meaningless nonsense.

I guess they haven’t learned that the country, by a wide margin, is on to this game, and disapproves them and their corruption.

And you just have to wonder how far out of touch with American values someone really is when he laughs off election fraud because the guy he wanted was the beneficiary. This is the wrong country for someone like that.

“As for the 2000 election, you know, if Al Gore had carried his *home state* of Tennessee, he’d be president today.

Face it. John Kerry lost, fair and square. ”

Way to go, Straw Man!
None of your comments relate to the issue at hand; you’re just making arguments that are completely tangential to what’s pertinent here.
Anything else off-topic you’d care to discuss in your attempt to derail meaningful conversation?

I think this article raises some serious questions. If the Ohio ballots are destroyed on Nov. 2nd, what purpose will that serve? Why would we ever want to destroy past election ballots?

After reading the Rolling Stone article, I have a comment and a question. There was clear evidence of election fraud. That being said – In local elections, election fraud can be prosecuted.
Is there a way that the participants in this fraud, can also be prosecuted? The fundamental right of citizens to have their votes counted must be protected against violators and their co-conspirators, no matter how high ranking they are in the government.

The fact that -any- vote in your country could be mis-counted is laughable at best and tragic at worst. I live in a country where voting involves drawing an X in a circle next to the name of the person you want to represent you. It’s hard to mess with that kind of voting system.

The problem with the media’s coverage of your elections is that they’ve become incomprehensibly LAZY. Talking heads sit behind desks and point to huge screens with nifty graphics that show numbers. And people talk about whether any particular region or state is yet a foregone conclusion. Sadly, they do not seem to be able to talk to AMERICAN VOTERS to find out if the process is being upheld or not.

Anybody who works in the media who was ignorant of local voting irregularities during the last election was just being a slacker. Any individual who -could- have unearthed voting irregularities and did not is just too scared to suffer the slings and arrows of Fox News and right-wing talk-radio idiots.

If this Blackwell fellow is such a Bad Guy, and he sure seems to be, then do what is necessary to remove him from power. If corrupt politicians are unable to be removed from power, at any level, then democracy is not being upheld. Any nation that sees fit to portray itself as a modicum of democracy and is uable to uphold its own democratic process should be subjected to international scorn and ridicule.

The article could have found another large number of “missing” votes. I live near and work on a university campus. News spreads like wildfire as students go from class to class or from hang out to hang out. I can’t even imagine the number of students who were planning to vote who never bothered to show up after hearing how long the wait had become. Think about how many on their way home from work skipped going to the polls as they heard how long the lines were. I think you can add thousands more to that total.

I was shocked and disgusted not only by the implications of the article, but that I had heard NOTHING to this effect in the past two years, not even from MoveOn, TrueMajority, or any of the other PAC’s from which I receive correspondence. Why hasn’t ANYONE tried to make these issues known, and what is being done to correct this travesty of American Democracy? I agree that it may be more important to look forward to regaining control of Congress in the midterm elections and securing the presidency in 2008, but the non-confrontational, pacifist approach to justice is exactly what breeds the attitude that Democrats don’t stand for anything. I feel that dramatic investigations need to take place, with the goal of filing charges against those responsible. It is not enough to draft legislation to prevent similar occurrences; the Republicans have proven that they can circumvent the system (especially since their control of Congress allows them to draft the system to serve their agenda in the end anyway). These crimes cannot be overlooked.

There are two things that really scare me about all this and neither has anything to do with election fraud – that’s been around for a long time. No, I am more scared by Kerry’s reaction: let’s not do anything about it because of fear that the Republicans will twist it to their advantage. I am also alarmed at the partisanship that threatens to overwhelm our political system – right down to the level of the individual voter – as evidenced by the remarks of Dilbert2 and others: “its over, you lost fair and square, the people spoke and the majority picked Bush.” If you are going to comment, you could at least address your remarks to the issue at hand. On the bright side: at least they’re not getting the National Guard out shooting us dead in the lines at the polls [yet]! Remember Kent State!

Yes, it was stolen. But the stunning part for me is that Kenneth J. Blackwell, according to the picture on his website . . . is black!

I cannot understand how any person could work so hard to disenfranchise his own community, let alone a man who has had the experience of growing up black in America.

Never mind where is the investigation! Where is the invective?

“Uncle Tom Blackwell.”

“Kenneth J. Whitewell.”

“Step ‘n’ Fetchit Kenny.”

“Republican candidate for governor of the State of Oreo.”

The guy’s a sitting duck. Let’s hear it for random sniping and innuendo!

SHOCKING EVIDENCE proves MEDIA BIAS and VINDICATES Kennedy’s claim of Media Cover-Up.

One thing Mr. Kennedy’s Article does not deal with is the way the mainstream media (including the Washington Post, NyTimes, etc) systematically UNDERMINED and attacked the claims being made about election fraud in November 2004. These mainstream news organization ALL started from the position that anyone questioning the elction results was a crackpot. One of the MAIN ARGUMENTS being made at that time was a stastical analysis that had been done showing potential fruad, misconduct or errors benefiting Bush in Florida. The mainstream media cited the work/comments of a professor from Cornell named Walter Mebane (and two of his colleagues from Stanford and Harvard) to refute this statistical analysis. The problem was the mainstream media never actually LOOKED at the analysis of Professor Mebane, just at his conclusions. Professor Mebane’s work was DEEPLY flawed to anyone who took 5 minutes to look at it. I emailed Prof. Mebane in November 2004. His replies to me PROVE that his analysis, which was used repeatedly at the time by the mainstream media to debunk theories of election misconduct, WAS TOTALLY WRONG! I am not aware that Prof. Mebane ever issued any sort of apology, retraction or correction to his flawed analysis.

The reason it was dropped so quickly is because John Kerry played his part to a tee and quickly accepted defeat and ran off with tail between his legs. Mr. Kerry is just as responsible for this debacle as the republicans. Great American hero John Kerry cowardly skulks away rather than do his duty and fight for what is right. I wouldn’t want Mr. Kerry to be President anymore than I want George Bush. They are cut from the same cloth. Mr. Kerry would have continued the Iraq foolishness. Mr. Kerry vowed to continue the fake war on terror. It’s a game and we’re not invited to participate. We can only spectate.

It sickens me how easy the kool aid drinkers who read this trash swallow it whole. So RKJR has all this information and instead of giving it to cnnmsnbccnbcnprbbc ( all of which would looove to get their hands on GWB) and instead of appearing in front of Congress, the supreme court or even the useless UN, he puts it all on his blog and on RS for all the kool aid drinkers to swallow.

Keep it up. I lived in 3rd world countries all my life. I can tell you, this populist crapola is what you hear everyday ( fraud fraud fraud, we won, it was all a sham, we’ll help the poor, we are the good guys, the people was prevented from voting ) We are heading to that level because of our prejudice and our insecurities.When things dont go our way we blame others. Lets just say that all 350,000 of those so called votes in Ohio went for keyy..ALl of them. Ok..he wouldve won due to the electoral college system. Despite the fact that bush would’ve had 3000,000 more votes. So then using that logic, technically Bush won 2000 fair and square. Then don’t complain that Gore had more votes than Bush in 2000.

People, please wake up. Stop being idealists and be realists. For the country’s sake. You lost. Period. Vote in 2006 and 8.

To think we have this monster media that can give us round the clock news on multiple channels all year, every year and it takes a politician to write this artice is simply pathetic. Every journalist is this country should resign and let someone willing to pursue truth for the benefit not just of our nation but of the ideal of democracy have a crack at investigating our government. All these pundits and talking dolts should cast off into the open sea and drown for all the good they do. It just shows how complacent this nation has become and continues to be that this man, Bush, is allowed to conintue ruining this country. Hell, Vermont voted for impeachment; Congress can’t show the same cajones?

Thank you RFK. Thank you.

Tell us, What do we do, as a nation about this? I knew the 2000 and the 2004 elections were rigged, but ever since Bush got into office, I have witnessed a blatant disregard of the Constitution of the United States and a redefinition of the moral fabric of our nation to the point that it isn’t even moral anymore.

I hope whatever needs to be done gets done, but we’re so far behind the curve in respect to the corruption, the conspiracies, the lies, until its too late.

Vote in 2006, 2008 then cross your fingers and hope your vote means something…

Thank you RKJ for giving those who didn’t have it their way in 2000 and 2004 another excuse for why they will lose in 06 and 08.

OMG, hahahahahahahaaaaaa

You people are too funny.

You’re truly “Unhinged.”

Anyone else want to go to western ohio with me this fall and challenge every voter in rural republican precincts? Get dem voters to tie up the voting booths as long as possible? Pose as Homeland Security and scare people away from the polls?

Dammit, there used to be folks on the left who could play as dirty and mean as Karl Rove ever dreamed of! I mean hey, I think he was a great president and helped us avoid nuclear war, but I don’t believe for a second that JFK won fair in Illinois… both sides were playing dirty, and his team played it better. LBJ stole the election that got him into the senate… and if it weren’t for that we might not have had the 1964 civil rights laws (and, possibly, not had vietnam)…

Dammit, as long as either side thinks they can win by playing the game, there won’t be substantive change. By lying down and just taking it up the ass, the dems ensure that Republicans have no incentive to ever push for real voting protection and reform.

Just being idealistic and saying “oh, we’ll just get an even MORE overwhelming majority of people to vote in the next election… so many that fraud can’t compensate!” isn’t going to get anyone anything other than a smug sense of self-satisfaction.

It’s time to teach turd blossom and his accolytes what it’s like when they actually have someone fighting them on their own turf…

All ballots from a Federal election must be kept for 22 months. There is still time for concerned citizens to request hand-eye counting of optical scan machine paper ballots from their county Boards of Elections to uncover whether or not those machines were “fixed” on 11/2/2004. If “hard” evidence is uncovered of the apparent vote-switching, the machine vendors should be called before grand juries to explain what happened. The 2004 election results cannot be changed, but those who committed election fraud can still be locked up.

RFK, Jr. writes an article about stolen elections?!? I believe the definition of chutzpah has just been rewritten. Look in the mirror at your own family (”vote early and often for JFK in Illinois…”) before casting stones at anyone, sir.

Very interesting article. This is what many people suspected, however as evident from several contributers to this forum (Dilbert2, laughing2hard2write etc) there’s a kind of moronic gung ho mentality latent in the US which Bush has willingly exploited, the only tiny consolation is that these people are shooting themselves in the foot with their own dumb ignorance (unless they happen to be rather wealthy which i doubt).

Like other posters have said, What are we going to do about it? It’s one thing to come here and talk about it, but if it never moves beyond just a few people talking about it. What should we do?

Not completely debunked at all…hahaha…good lord you Bushbots are too funny…

I just love how most americans continue to live in denial and over-rationalization.

If they’re willing to test pesticides on children, invade countries over lies and deceit, and hand out favors and contracts to all of their friends, don’t you think they’d also undermine the democratic system for personal gain?

I mean, come on, get real. You basically have to be dishonest and corrupt to make it here in Washington DC. If you even suggest that you want to fix things, they’ll run you straight out of town. The criminals have won the prize, they own the city I work in (DC).

I guess you can take off your clothes, and follow everyone else into the showers.

EcoDudd: That MOJO article does not refute anything — you obviously didn’t read it carefully or didn’t understand it. Do your homework. I never believe or disbelieve anything until I read the source documents and check at least three reputable sources. Voter fraud happened. Bush should have never been elected in 2000 or 2004. We wouldn’t have 18,000 wounded and 2700 dead Americans. Thousands upon thousands of Iraqis would not have died. And the world would still respect us.

Please!!!! Just more unfounded resentment and conspiracy theories. Citations in and of themselves don’t lend any weight if the sources are themselves baseless.

I hope, despite what I’ve seen in the past six years, that this will be the straw that breaks the silence of mainstream news media. Something that lifts the partisan blindfold from those millions, who still believe that their ideological ends justify any means, and that their “representatives” share their views and not the other way around.

Election fraud, however, is just the tip of the iceberg. We wouldn’t even bother discussing it, if it weren’t for the monumental, barely comprehensible failure this administration has turned out to be.

How about the fact that even under the cleanest processes, house representatives get to pick their voters, and not the other way around (gerrymandering). This is not a new phenomenon, but one that has risen to such levels of sophistication that incumbent retention rates in the House put to shame most dictatorships.

However, both these are dwarfed by the role fundraising has taken on in the process. There is a lot of money riding on today’s elections, and in the overwhelming majority of the cases, that money is “hedged”… so much to say, so little time!

I’ve seen the so-called ‘debunking” of the voter fraud. Not nearly as well-documented as RFK’s piece. And frankly not as credible as the dried bison crap I just scraped out of my barn here in rural Indiana.

I think it’s obvious that Bush Inc. has stolen two elections in a row. But what ARE we going to do about it?

Gripe and moan on message boards?

We need to focus on the big picture and develop long-term plans. First we need to re-take our state and local governments — that’s where a LOT of this fraud is enabled. Run for state office yourself (I am) or get very involved in a good candidate’s campaign. And send MONEY to good candidates. Even if you can only afford $10 it can help a candidate not have to rely on special interests for the money needed to put up a web site and print brochures and yard signs etc.

We also need to take back the media. Start your own local, alternative paper. Get a job at a locla paper, radio station, or TV station. Fight the beast from within! Heck, if you can find a few friends of some means, start up or buy a small local radio station.

Or, if you don’t have the ability to infiltrate the media hound them to no end. Contact advertisers of media that aren’t doing their job and make sure the newspaper/radio station/TV station you have complaints about knows what you demand from them. The Religious Right has been doing this stuff for years and it’s worked for them. The non-religious right has managed to get themselves into ownership or managerial positions within the mainstream media. We need to do the same thing.

The leadership of the Democratic Party nationally has been completely spineless about this issue. We need to stop waiting for them to do something. If you think Dems should do more about it, get involved in the county or state Democratic party – change it from the ground up.

Most of all, you need to DO something. Cynicism and/or apathy will ensure that the slide into tyranny will not only proceed but accelerate. I think you’ll find the satisfaction of smugly saying, “I told you so,” will be of little consolation.

Vigilance and Action are the keys. Even if you think it’s hopeless and we’ve already lost, at least go down fighting.

I still remember watching an NBA Playoff game several years ago when the Indiana Pacers were facing the Knicks in the Eastern Conference Finals. There was less than a minute left and the Pacers got down by about 6 points and the Knicks had the ball.

Disgusted, several of my friends and I left the room, not wanting to sit through the misery of watching our team lose to the hated Knicks (apologies to NYK fans, but you understand the rivalry).

Turns out Reggie Miller turned in one of the great playoff performances and single-handedly scored 8 points in a matter of seconds and won the game.

And a LOT of us die-hard Pacer fans missed it. Because we gave up hope. Sure we’ve seen the replays numerous times, but nothing could have compared to the feeling of the fans who stuck it out and saw it live.

I won’t make that mistake again — in sports OR in life. Never give up the fight.

Americans sure love Democracy don’t they! Stop sying you are an example to the rest or world when the only example presented is facism.

I’m just sick of this “attack the source” mentality. I would be the first to admit that the sources this article draws upon are of mostly liberal (and often grassroots)bent, but seemingly it’s in their interest to investigate these charges, isn’t it? I imagine that had the liberals benefitted from what the right would perceive as voter fraud, this would simply flip-flop and the name calling would continue.

So why didn’t liberals utilize unethical tactics and attempt voter fraud themselves? Any ideas?

At any rate: To those who dismiss this as conspiracy-baiting and kool-aid drinking, I ask you to look to the secrecy and track record of this Adminstration, starting in 2000 with the election and then revealing itself again and again… Can you blame readers from beginning to suspect that something is rotten in this state of democracy?

Where will this end? In the courts? I think the evidence in 00 and 04 is persuasive. I also think that the motivation on the Republican side is not merely anti-Democrat but anti- democracy. The poison of fundamentalism mixed with politics is not confined to any part of the world and it is more accentuated here than we have begun to admit. Mainline journalistic understanding oand coverage of the religious dimension and its relationship to politics is not merely superficial, it is largely nonexistent.

Even those who dispute the well-documented occurrences written about in RFK, Jr’s article cannot deny a critical fact — Blackwell was co-chair of the committee to elect Bush in Ohio AND the person overseeing elections in Ohio — a clear conflict of interest.

Prior to the 2004, I knew the Republicans would steal it again, as they did in 2000. One thing that really stands out in my mind is on election day 2004, as Bush was making his last rounds on Air Force 1, Bush said to a reporter, “We’ll take Ohio. YOu can BET on it.” He said it with a really smug and positive attitude. That sealed it for me. The “fix was in” on the 2004 election. George W. Bush is a crook trying to play president. I can’t believe how it was allowed. It was almost like people were afraid of being killed if they questioned anything. I wonder if that’s not too far from the truth. We’re a doomed country at the moment, and it won’t recover within our life time.

“Virtually all the claims first brought out about voter fraud have been discredited…”

This is a theme mentioned politely and sometimes not so politely in a number of responses; Dubbya, VRWC, Dilbert2, MANFROMPR.

I would ask that you please be more specific. How and by whom were virtually all of RFK’s points discredited? Please explain point by point with facts. Many thanks.

I’m tired of liberals and enviros (I am both) having no meaningful effect. Voting and contributing to campaigns mean nothing anymore. Elites and corporations run the world exactly according to plan, profiting from the mayhem we see every day. We have nothing more to lose. Money and power are all the current rulers will respond to. I’m not saying do nothing. I see one last hope. Starve the beast. Or, since a small fraction of people control most of the wealth (and thus the power) at least put it on a diet. Now. Or it’s only going to get worse.

Change was effected in South Africa by economic pressure. What I’d like to see people really taking it to the streets with grassroots economic pressure on the US. I’m talking dumping all US investments: stock market, T-bills, bonds, etc. Get all your money out of dollars. There are plenty of other places to put your money. Renewables. Denmark windmill makers. Perth Mint gold certificates. (The dollar’s probably going to hell anyway.) Anywhere but nuclear or fossil fuels or the elite banking industry. Divest of all investments and currencies causing harm in the world. Nobody who cares about the future should whine about losing a few pieces of silver by investing ethically.

Google and Dogpile searches for “Divest US” currently come up with about 4 companies divesting their US assets (a couple weeks ago there were none). *Divest US!* could be a battlecry of a movement. Terms for investing in the US should be implementing the Non-Proliferation Treaty, resignation of Bush, worldwide ban of all nuclear weapons (including DU) and anything else basic to human survival on this planet. Whatever happens to the US and world economies, I guarantee most people will be better off than continuing down the current insane path of fascism in America, nuking Iran, and the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, in the US and the world over. Do you honestly think current trends are going to reverse on their own? Or maybe we will get the results we want by writing letters, voting and protesting? We saw how well that works in 2000, 2004 and the immigrant protests.

If we don’t do something, our kids won’t have our money or a world to inherit. If you don’t have money, pass this message on.

There are a lot more of us than them. Divest US!

Rolling Stone – the evidence is clear. Now change the title and stand behind it:

“The 2004 election was stolen”

Congress should impeach Bush for this. This is shameful! And like others are saying, why isn’t the media jumping all over this?

Regarding Kenneth Blackwell: Maybe he doesn’t think he is black.

I love these stories, because it reminds me yet again how much fun it was to watch the election in 2004.

The more the wackos complain the more I get to relive it all over again.

It’s hard for me to understand arguments that claim (1) evidence of voter fraud is somehow not important to investigate and requesting inquiry amounts to whining, or that (2) any potential fraud is somehow cleansed because John Kerry would have lost anyway.

As an interested citizen of Cleveland, and an engaged law student, I witnessed voters walk away. The driving rain that day meant that the long lines and problems at the polling places exacerbated the already obvious voter disenfranchisement.

These issues go far beyond partisan politics: they affect the very cornerstone of our governmental process. It’s hard to imagine how anyone can defend the deliberate and drastic tactics (e.g., the paper stock of the ballots) that were used to destroy the voting process, especially after being alerted to how widespread the problems actually were.

There was certainly some strange things going on. Congress did an investigation, and couldn’t come to any conclusions.

I will say that there is some deceptive reporting going on by RFK Jr. He mentions repeatedly that Ellen Connally, a Black, very-liberal Democrat out-performed Kerry in very rural Republican counties. The reason for this isn’t tied to any conspiracy, it’s that there are no party designations given in Ohio on the ballot for Judges. So, only very-educated voters would know anything about Connally. More than likely, they voted on her because they liked the sound of her name more than Thomas Moyer’s. That is often the way it works in down-ticket state-wide races. Name identification is king, and Connally’s name is very vanilla sounding.

Yep. But now what to do about it. We’ve got an election coming up in November. How do we ensure that votes get counted correctly, for one thing?

Can we just ask everyone to stay? “After you are done voting, since we have no confidence in the machines or the people running them, could you just stay and we’ll count heads later.”

Nance

How come you Americans allow your leaders to go on like this? What’s wrong with you?

The Democrats are sounding more and more like the Minister of Information in Bagdhad: “There are no Americans at the airport! We are in control of every encounter and are crushing the Allied forces throughout Iraq…” Yeah – right…

Every County BOE and Every voting precicnt has a balance of Republican and Democatic officials are we saying that the all of these Democratic folks are part of the 2004 Election Theft?

Get real, Kerry lost Bush won! You better start focusing on the 2006 and 2008 elections or Democrats will propably be complaining that those were stolen also.

if statistics weren’t reliable, there’ld be no Las Vegas! The Exit polls were right and the election was stolen – and not just in Ohio.

dar052855 | 6/2/2006, 3:55 pm EST

The Democrats are sounding more and more like the Minister of Information in Bagdhad: “There are no Americans at the airport! We are in control of every encounter and are crushing the Allied forces throughout Iraq…” Yeah – right…

Actually, replace “americans” with “insurgents” and that sounds a lot more like Tony Snow talking about how things are going in Iraq!

Bush is President. Whining will not change that.

Live with it.

Those exit polls just scream it out: FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD. It’s exactly like these statisticians say: no way that these patterns could happen without massive tampering. No amount of Republican bluster, media hypocrisy or voter denial can change this simple fact. Maybe more courageous Americans of the future WILL be able to face up to this ugly reality.

I know some of you might be too young to remember this — but do you remember what Republicans were screaming when Clinton won in 92 and 96? Or carter in 76? The same shit they have the nerve to call “pointless whining” when it comes from us. Only difference is, we have actual EVIDENCE that there was some crookedness and deception going on!

Paul,

Stats are not fact. Stats and uncontrolled data (TV) can be manipulated much easier than encrypted highly endoded data. Please stop the moronic statments.

========
T-Bone | 6/2/2006, 4:14 pm EST

Paul,

Stats are not fact. Stats and uncontrolled data (TV) can be manipulated much easier than encrypted highly endoded data. Please stop the moronic statments.
=======

Oh, there’s no argument about that. But use your head a little. There’s a LOT of data streams in terms of pre-and-exit polling. So it’s unlikely that they’d ALL be off to the same degree. There’s only ONE data stream when it comes to the actual votes — and that’s the concern.

That, even ignoring the efforts to minimize the number of votes cast, the votes are far from “encrypted and highly encoded”

Or did you, like so many, comment without reading and researching? You do realize that your “encrypted and highly encoded data” can be easily altered through a simple dialup modem connection? Or a programing card stuffed in with ballots being scanned? Or through diebold machines that repeatedly had to be taken out of service for mysteriously “switching” votes from Kerry to Bush?

If the data — the votes — were actually clearly recorded and untampered, there wouldn’t be any question.

Why not do a manual recount to verify whether kerry votes were whited out on optical scan cards? What do you have to lose if Bush really won so handily?

To all the people claiming “if it were true, we’d have heard about it on the news”: The news media is the problem, and in my opinion a bigger problem than Bush himself.

Who told the world about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction that turned out not to exist? Who told the world Bush won the election and it was fair and honest? Who is currently trying to make Ahmadinehad look like some kind of modern Hitler?
Right – the news media.

And who should know better, given they employ the largest number of “investigative” journalists?
Right, guessed so.

The big problem is that the media ownership is way too consolidated – pretty much all TV stations that carry news are owned by Rupert Murdoch (a Neo-Nazi warmonger who called for the extermination of Arabs to steal their oil even more loudly than Bush), and most major newspapers are largely owned by the Hollinger Group (which, in turn, is one of the major backers of Bush).

We cannot expect fair reporting from those organizations, and we can’t expect the average person to do their own research — so what is needed more than anything else is alternative news sources that don’t let politicians and companies like Enron or Microsoft get away with their lies and crimes — and, of course, awareness of the media ownership issues which in turn will lead people to not blindly believe what the fake news say.

Iraq’s “WMDs” should be more than sufficient proof that the mainstream news media lie whenever it fits their agenda.

None of Bush’s (or Clinton’s for that matter, let’s not make this a partisan issue) crimes could have gone unpunished if there were legitimate reporting.

Paul,

I bet you know who killed Kennedy too.

Where do you suppose all of the real irrefutable evidence of tampering is being stored? There has been nothing but conjecture and extrapolation about what would probably be the single most devastation conspiracy in the nation’s history.

Again I say – where is and what is the evidence? There are plenty of liberal reporters, judges, activists, politicians and etc. who would be more than willing to use it against Republicans if it existed.

No real evidence whatsoever.

There is no case, no evidence, and no lawsuits.

And please, no more moronic extrapolations, my little head hurts.

Vote fraud? Vote suppression? How about the vote suppression in Florida, 2000 when the Gore team attempted to invalidate thousands of military absentee ballots? How about the Florida, 2000 vote supression when the news networks called the polls closed when they were not closed in the panhandle?

The DNC knows a thing or two about vote fraud. They have been as guilty of it as much as any group. Stolen election in 1960, attempted to steal the election in 2000, and now crying foul about the 2004 election.

What is truly amazing is the propensity of the DNC to make inane claims with zero proof of them. Then when the “claims” ahve been repeated enough, they know think it is fact. Good little disciples of Herr Goebbels.

America needs to get over it and accept the reality that George W. Bush is President and will be until January 2009 when a new person will be sworn into office. Let the common American citizen make sure that both political parties do not try any dirty tricks in 2006 or 2008. Both parties are guilty and both should be disbanded.

T-Bone,

again you dodge the point. the statistics, the coincidences, the conflicts of interest — have convinced a not insignificant number of people that something fishy might have gone on.

It’s in the best interest of our democracy to LOOK for evidence so that (hopefully) there CAN’T be any reasonable doubt about the fairness of the vote in Ohio and other states.

What Kennedy’s article does is raise reasonable doubts. Where and what is the evidence? That’s exactly what we need to find out. Efforts to conduct manual recounts or view ballots (in areas that didn’t have those dubious touch-screen machines) have been stymied at every turn. It’s not that there is a lack of people who want to find dirt on Bush in Ohio – it’s that there’s a lack of officials in Ohio who will allow any chance of that happening.

test

This nonsense about stolen elections is almost as bad as the nonsense about Iraq not having weapons of mass destruction, or the ridiculous claims that not all Iranian “people” are more evil than Hitler, or even the communist lies claiming Iran did not cause Katrina.

Don’t believe any of this nonsense, we need your blind and unquestioning support if we want to genocide all Arabs and all Old-Europeans, err… STOP TERRORISM, I meant, of course.

This does not suprise me, the 2001 election was won by President Al Gore and Bush’s crew staged a coup d’etat to get into office to invade Iraq.

Wake up and smell the espresso, this is how those neo-con/fascist operate and why our civil liberties are being slowly eroded away by a Constitutionally illiterate Congress and the faux Bush Administration

Dave,

To many people would have to be involved to pull it off, statistically many would crack and thus expose the truth and the path to the evidence. People like to feel important and like attention. The evidence of something like this could never be contained.

Unless it was stored in area 54 of course.

In that 12 Suspect Counties segement….actually Warren and Clermont are suburban counties, not sparely populate rural counties, like the artcile said.

You should be aware that of people who get their news from ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, and CNN the MAJORITY of those with an opinion on the question of whether the 2004 election was stolen said YES it was stolen. Of those people that get their news from FOX “News”, 99.5% don’t think it was stolen. Talk about drinking the Fair and Balanced Koolaid.

I dont think it was a conspiracy as much as individual decisions to ‘do what it takes” to win…or maybe things that have “aways happened” but no one looked closely until now.

I mean, in a county where nearly everyone is GOP who is going to ask questions?

OF COURSE THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN! Elvis came down from outer space in a flying saucer from Area 51 and TOLD ME that the same people who killed JFK,(the mafia and Cubans on the grassy knoll) were the ones who fixed the election!

OF COURSE THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN! Elvis came down from outer space in a flying saucer from Area 51 and TOLD ME that the same people who killed JFK,(the mafia and Cubans on the grassy knoll) were the ones who fixed the election!

AREA51RESIDENT,

Have you viseted area 54 to see the voter fraud evidence yet? We are having a party and Govenor Blackwell will be the guest speaker.

The article is hardly moronic extrapolations. Like Darwinism, the fact that the election was stolen is based on sound science rather than the blind belief systems these right-wing neo-fasicsts espouse.

For an example of moronic extrapolations, I refer you to their official explanation of how 9/11 was able to happen on Bush’s watch.

It is very predictable that faced with real evidence, Bushite fascists will deny that it exists because if it did, surely the “liberal” media would have reported it. This is how their little, simple mind “thinks.”

This rings hollow for those of us who know that “liberal” media is merely a GOP talking point. We know that the media re-counted Gore’s victory then neglected to report the uncomfortable fact that they helped put the wrong man in office.

We know that the “liberal” media failed to question how NORAD could let enemy-controlled planes fly about the East coast for more than an hour.

We know that the “liberal” media has ignored lack of explanation for the controlled demolition of WTC7 that wasn’t even hit by a plane.

The “liberal” media dutifully reported doubtful accusations that Kerry didn’t earn his war medals. The “liberal” media allowed the validity of the documents to trump the eyewitness accounts that Bush was AWOL from the National Guard. The “liberal” media propagandized about impossible cellphone calls from United flight 93, supposed Iraq’s WMDs that the UN inspectors believed had been destroyed, the “rescue” of Jessica Lynch, and ran the official Pat Tillman story leaving out the parts about his opposition to the Iraq war and plans to meet with Norm Chomsky.

The “liberal” media would have us believe justice was served by prosecuting a handful of guards that abused prisoners at Abu Ghraib in exactly the same fashion that prisoners are tortured in US facilities around the world. Somehow, higher ups were clearly not suspects.

If it’s not the existence of the “liberal” media that supposedly disproves that a scandal of this size could happen, then its the Democrat politicians — ignoring the fact that they have been shut out of any government power for the last six years with the exception of the Senate for one brief moment upon which the leaders received Anthrax letters.

The war on terror never arrested anyone for the anthrax attacks using a strain that was proprietary to the US Army, and the “liberal” media has kind of forgotten that too.

Like Congress that now sees the executive branch raiding their offices at will, the “liberal” media has been blackmailed by an FCC that holds spectrum rights that determine their future profitability.

While reporters may be liberal, the media is controlled by large corporations that value and benefit from Bush’s corporatist/fascist government.

I too am disappointed by Kerry’s folding without even supporting the recount. The way I figure it, Bush threatened to expose the photo of Kerry blowing his Skull & Bones frat bro if he refused to fade after the crime.

The blind beleivers and paid shills defending Bush on this board are still relying on straw man arguments and “get over it.” With ever article, everyday, more and more of us understand that its the scumbags in the White House that are terrorizing the world.

T-Bone

That’s a perfectly good reason to believe there wasn’t a widespread conspiracy.

But it isn’t a perfectly good reason to believe that there shouldn’t be a full investigation, and the ballots and audit trail should be examined.

Wouldn’t that serve our democracy best? To show there’s nothing to hide?

After all, if there wasn’t widespread tampering and manipulation (and that hardly requires some massive, organized conspiracy anyhow), what would that show, other than that yep, the flamers on here are right and Bush did indeed win with an unexpected mandate and folks like RFKJR should quit their whining?

Really, unless there WAS extensive fraud, what does anyone have to lose?

MCLamb,

Lots of emotion, I respect that. But it doesn’t change facts or generate evidence.

Please elaborate on how all of these “simple minds” pulled off the greatest and most widespread conspiracy in history.

Both parties are controlled by interests that are nowhere near american interests. They are two sides of the same coin.

People need to realize this, or nothing will ever change, except which party is being bashed at any given moment.

Remember, the nazis were just a party. It was the corporate takeover of the party and the country that led to Germany being responsible for the most astonishing abuses, genocidal actions and war after war after war. So we have two parties, that’s a smokescreen. The people making money don’t care who is in office, just so long as they can get cheap labor, fix the “social problems” that affect profits and create disorder to service for profit (wars are highly profitable, after all.)

I wonder if China will have a marshall plan for us after our downfall? At least that would mean we’d have a chance at being the powerhouse of some industry once the paradigm changes.

I wonder who the chinese prescott bush is, who’s the guy over there funding and enabling this dismantling and destruction of America?

To those who cry “whiners” whenever anyone discusses possible election fraud: What’s do you suggest should be done when evidence points to a huge manipulation of our national elections? Ignore it, and hope that it doesn’t happen again? Do you imagine that complacency is some sort of virtue? Anyone who is willing to blindly trust those in power shouldn’t be living in a democracy.

I’m confused by the editorial. Why would you ask the same people who faked the election to investigate it.

Sure it was stolen. Everything this administration has been involved in points not to democratic values but despotic values. Voter fraud, domestic spying, National identity cards, things that fascists do. Whaty many people do not realize is that most of Bush’s advisers are followers of a Philosopher named Leo Strauss whose worldview was one in which it would be considered very moral to pretend that a democracy continued to flourish in the U.S. when it had been usurped to further the interests of the party.

Unfortunately this means that you cannot rely on ANY of the traditional measures used to correct these actions. Including voting. Only truly massive demonstrations in which it appears that the militrary will side with the demonstrators will result in a change here.

I mean, what the hell did you think they meant by “Permanent Majority”?

It would be nice for someone to publish some names of members of the Fraud Squads.

We have some housekeeping to do.

T-Bone

You appear to be not very familiar with statistical reasoning. The evidence is in the statistics themselves. And it’s damning and conclusive. The odds against the patterns observed are overwhelming. Massive tampering must have taken place. End of story. Or rather the beginning…

Poor Robert.
Off his meds again, I suppose.
I wonder if anyone ever talked to him about how Uncle Jack REALLY won the 1960 election!

There must me a time when we say, “enough”. I have never been “political”, as we say, but I know sociopathic behavior when I see it. And I believe our conscience dictates us to fight such behavior.

These people have done more than enough damage to my country. I’m tired of it. I’m ready to fight.

I’m nobody. But I’ve just been switched “on”. It’s all in the numbers. Enough of us fight, we can win.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., if you are reading these posts (and I hope you are), follow it up. What can we do? What can we REALLY do? If the Democratic Party lays down so easily, how do we convince them to fight this like the street fight it is?

Write me at readytogo@uppityrobot.com

The article reports on a lot of different things..it isnt really suggesting a conspiracy as much as pulling together a lot of different incidents in Ohio.

I think there is some legimate concerns on how impartial these county election boards are…that is a systemic issue that goes beyond the partisan dirty tricks to supress the vote.

That situation with Kenyon College, Mnt Vernon Nazarene and the distribution of voting machines really does bring into question a certain fairness issue re that county board of elections.

TBone and others,

The simple minds simply made it impossible for Gore & Kerry voters to vote. In both Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004, the elections were run by secretaries of state that also ran Bush campaign efforts. Katherine Harris systematically disenfranchised folks with partial name matches to felons, but excluded Hispanic surnames that tend to vote GOP in Florida. In Ohio, five democrat headquarters were broken into and thieves only took the computers with the data base of likely Democrat voters. Some 10% of these folks across the state found their registrations unexplicably made invalid without ever even being notified. Mark Crispin Miller’s book “Fooled Again” has all the details.

Others simple minds simply inserted memory cards into Diebold machines as they were told, unknowingly changing vote totals.

We’re long past crying here — we’re mad as hell. It’s the Bush fascists that are in denial, still believing the myth that this perpetually lying team of criminals has ever been elected to office.

The Republicans who have committed these crimes against voting are the essence and the acme of corruption.

Never in our history has there been such distain expressed for our way of life. From the small party henchman to the Kenneth Blackwells, the Katherine Harrises, all the way to the vomitous abominations these soldiers serve; there has never before been such a complete system of corruption as we see today in the Republican Party.

If you are a good Republican you will become a better American when you disaffiliate with these vile creatures who have used you and who have used America. You will be a better person if you expose the vile cancer and cleanse your party.

Your party desperately needs the powerful antiseptics of goodness and truth. The disease must be burnt out and cauterized before it destroys you and many others. If it is permitted to continue the malignancy will destroy our entire nation.

They have desecrated our most sacred civic institution on a level never before imagined.

These foul mistrustful people rationalize their misdeeds with a sick view of our world and a sick view of life itself. They have no conscience and no remorse for their misdeeds.

These beasts are not a part of any civil society. Like the animals that they are, they will use every opportunity to claw and steal what they want.

They befoul our great country with their fascist tendencies and their ideological arrogance. They are driven by a grotesque vision of hatred and insecurity. There is nothing about democracy which they understand, admire or respect.

Believe me, they will outcheat, outsteal and outlie any who stand in their way. They will break any rule that that does not suit them.

They have absolutely no honor and they have no respect for law.

To count yourself among them with no remorse and no shame is the same as hating America.

You must instead expose them for foul hateful creatures that they are. Read the article again. Know the things that they do. No person is better positioned than you to address, cleanse and heal your party of its sickness.

We all are counting on you. You who will cut the evil ones out and hold them up to the light of justice like a black wormy tumor to the sun. Only in this way will your party every regain its honor. Indeed, you are the only hope for the modern Republican Party.

In regards to Reagan’s win, I believe he outpolled Carter. That doesn’t mean that his election was legitimate.

The reason Reagan won was because his running mate treasonously negotiated a arms-for-hostage deal and ultimately used the proceeds to engage in an illegal war against the Contras in central America. Bush promised Iran arms if they held the hostages through innugeration day, and Iran complied. The constant drone of “360 days” of hostage crisis is the reason why an Admiral and the first president to promote energy independence was replaced by a Hollywood actor pretending to be a cowboy. This was all reported by CIA agent Gary Sick.

If there had been anything like this sort of activity going on during the past election, our exalted newspapers and media would have been all over it. They obviously are in no way negligent in publishing their opinions ( whether substantiated or not), and in large measure stand united on a left-slanted hill, doing vitually everything that can be done for the democratic party —if there was in their thinking any hope of this rant being true, or even the slightest hope of using banter like this to ruffle the GOP banner, they would have been doing so without mercy ( as they should )—-this is just a bunch of hooie—I’m sure lots of people are going to get their panties in a wad and take it to the streets, but the only real affect of this “revelation” will be more of the hotheaded, soft-spoiled elite ( yeah, virtually anyone living here could be called elite by world standards) screaming about how bad our country is. Rolling Stone—what happened to you? Take a deep breath and think next time. RFK Jr—I still like you, but you’re way off on this.

For an article that the neoCons assert has no basis in fact, they sure hired a lot of shills to talk it down on this board.

Polls show that Bush is perceived as the worst president in history. The nation overwhelming disapproves of Bush’s performance. Yet look at the ratio of pro-Bush to anti-Bush posters on this board, supposedly representing the readers of a liberal publication. It’s obvious that these are paid shills.

John Kerry was not going to contest an election against his Order of Skull and Bones (Brotherhood of Death) brother George W. Bush. The discussion of vote fraud is very interesting but is really a distraction from much larger issues and is a mute point. Skull and Bones won the election.

InfoWars,

As a Dean delegate to my local caucus in 2004, I remember the emphatic pleas of a recent European immigrant who had read the story of Kerry’s Skull & Bones association and asked how nominating someone from the same secrative organization would change things. When Kerry let himself be “swiftboated,” I wondered if he really wanted to win. When he did not support the Green/Libertarian led recount, I decided that he didn’t care about democracy. When he was in Africa as the Congressional Black Caucus challenged Bush’s second illegitimate election, it was obvious that he had been compromised.

In 2008, I’m for Gore. He won before and he’s not going to lie us into war.

Paid shills my ass.

I posted facts, such as how the media gives 68% of their money to the Dems, and how a composite of all pre-election polls showed Bush winning by the near identical margin that he ultimately won by.

Your “paid shills” is nothing more than a deflection. A straw man.

How about addressing the actual facts that I posted instead of using Michael Moore tactics to silence/discredit critics?

No, the reason Reagan won was because of high inflation, high UI, a high “misery” index under Jimmah Carter, not because of some alleged covert deal to extend the hostage crisis, or even more laughable, that the Reagan camp rigged the election.

What a bunch of sore losers.

Not only are you in denial, you blame others for your party’s incompetence, by claiming they had to have rigged the election.

After all, how else could a Democrat possibly lose?

It’s just not conceivable!

The tolerant and open-minded left simply cannot fathom that not every thinks like them and votes like them.

Why aren’t people protesting in the street every day? We are growing so used to being screwed at every turn that we lack the power to even speak. If your vote flips, freak out until the police come. If you get turned away, freak out until the police come. Don’t be intimidated… Scream from the top of your lungs until someone hears. The sound of hundreds of thousands of people must be heard. Unless we are willing to risk something, we will get nothing.

Dear Crying,

Which is a more reliable indicator of actual votes — a phone survey of people who say that they will vote, or an exit poll of people that have just voted?

While they were once the gold standard, phone surveys today systematically under-represent the younger, more mobile and more democratic voter because so many of them only use cellphones that are not surveyed.

The discrepancy you raise can also simply reflect the fact the people who say that they are going to vote don’t always follow through.

That’s why we use exit polls that we use to validate election results in 3rd world countries. The exit polls showed that Kerry won, until they were weighted to match the “actual” result.

Dear Crying,

I didn’t say that the Reagan camp rigged the election. I said that they made a deal with the Iranians to provide arms in exchange for holding the hostages.

Why do you figure that the Iranians chose inaugeration day to end the crisis?

As a fairly well educated black man in America I have the following message to all black’s in this country. If this country after all these years is still going to play games like the ones described in this article we do have a way to strike back. Do not serve in the U.S. military untill all social economic curves for our people equal that of white people. It is time we stopped letting our young people being used as cannon fauder for corrupt biggeted country such as ours were the people that get all the benefits from this society never pay any of the cost incured for said benefits. Blacks represent nearly one third of combat forces in the military yet we are only 12% of the population. Without us this country will find it very difficult to wage war. By the way I’m an honorably discharged marine. The other thing we can do is after we get rid of the republicans we can make it clear to the democratic party that they had better stand up for us as well as rich corportions and eligal residents that steal our jobs or we will find a different park our votes. The democratic party get well over 90% of our votes and only roughly 60% of hipanic votes they had better decide to stand for thing that help us and other woking class people including hispanics hear legally or we will kill the party.

Well, the facts Crying are that that is was a Bush cousin working in the Fox newsroom that caused the network to call the election for Bush, and it was mega-rich GE CEO Jack Welch who told NBC to follow suit in the first instance in which networks chose to ignore their exit polls to call a presidential election differently.

Exit polls are not the end all.

Many Pubs vote after work, after the exit polls were taken.

And Pubs tend to vote more via absentee ballot than at the polls.

Again, if you think that exit polls, taken during the day hours, taken in mostly big cities that vote Democrat are more accurate than a composite of just about every legitimate polling organization is, then you are flat-out wrong.

Add in the media bias, the same media that gives 68% of their campaign cash to the Dems, the same media that incorrectly called FL for Gore in 2000 when the polls in the Conservative panhandle of FL hadn’t closed yet, which even Dem strategist Bob Beckel admits cost Bush 10,000 votes in FL in 2000, and it’s easy to see why exit polls aren’t an exact science.

For such self-proclaimed “open-minded” people, you sure aren’t very open-minded when it comes to facts that don’t support your ideology.

And how about all those college students who openly admitted going from polling place to polling place and voting for Kerry, taking advantage of the same-day registration rules?

Or the Dems that slashed tires on Republican “get out the vote” vehicles?

Or how some precincts in Philadelphia had more votes than voters?

Did the article mention any of that?

Without even reading it, my bet is no.

This article is lots of innuendo and accusations, but short on any actual proof.

The Dems are good at engaging in the very actions that they often accuse others of doing.

A couple of things that I’ve noticed about people who believe the myth that George Bush has been legitimately elected twice:

They see no impropriety in the secretaries of state also being partisan campaign officials.

They express no interest in voter disenfranchisement that gave them the margin of victory.

They see no problem with votes being counted by proprietary software built by companies run by partisans.

Instead of trying to remove the factors contributing to a lack of confidence in the system, they attack anyone who raises these questions as “sore losers.”

When confronted with evidence of their own parties cheating in the last two elections, rather than dealing with it, they’d cite an election from 1960.

Dear Anon;

For a self-proclaimed “well educated black man” your spelling skills are lacking.

Then, like Quit Crying, they suddenly find their own interest in election fraud that Democrats supposedly engaged in — throwing out unsubstantiated charges without any basis in fact whatsoever.

Hey, how about posting some actual evidence that Bush stole two elections, instead of posting innuendo and unfounded accusations, or myths that have been debunked several times over?

Maybe then you’ll convince others that your not a bunch of “sore losers” who can’t accept the fact that dumbass hick Bush outsmarted the Dems 2x

It’s so funny hearing you guys call Bush dumb while he continues to outsmart you guys constantly.

Yeah, the media is in cahoots with Bush, even though they give 68% of their campaign money to the Dems.

Fuck, you can’t make this shit up.

Do you guys realize how stupid you look?

Well, do you?

When backed into a corner regarding the criminality of their leaders, these pretend-American fascists cite one-off incidents suggesting Dem dirty tricks. What’s a set of slashed tires compared to the GOP’s massive dialier effort to shut down the Dems get-out-the-votes activities in NH? Surely, that cost more votes but fascists like “Quit Crying” can only see Dem crimes.

One need only listen to Bush speak to realize he’s dumb. It’s Cheney who has been running the show and was running five separate terrorism planning exercises that prevented NORAD from intercepting all planes on 9/11.

Having known for years that the plans to attack Iraq and establish permenent bases were published by the Project for New American Century in 1998, that Bush was an coke fiend AWOL from the National Guard, that Bush was never elected, and that WMD’s were a lie, I have to ask “Quit Crying” if he has any idea how stupid he looks?

There is one pre-election poll result that I find particularly telling. People with graduate degrees favored Kerry over Bush’s bullshit by a ratio of 7 to 1.

Quit Crying,

I absolutley adore you. I love how you wrote your stance, ending it with “Without even readin it…”

Exactly.

And how trite of you to harp on spelling. How Sophmoric. How perfectly Republican.

(and in case you don’t get it)

let me introduce you to my friend irn’y.

NO electronic voting machines ever and CLEAN elections is the answer.

Yoli

How ironic that a Kennedy should be complaining about a “fix” of any kind. Hey Bobby, Jr., what about Grandpa Joe, the mob and the “fix” for your Uncle Jack, the numerous “fixes” for (the swimmer)Uncle Ted, and I won’t even waste my time on all of the numerous cousins…..

MC Lamb, you’re the one who looks dumb, by claiming Bush was AWOL (Flase) A cokehead (False again) and that he lied us into war, stole elections (False)

I asked you to post proof, and you posted more baseless accusations.

As for the guy I chided for his spelling, I wouldn’t have done so had he not first proclaimed himself “well-educated” not to mention he’s misinformed about the ratio of blacks in the military.

So many falsehoods here coming so fast and furious, that they’re hard to keep up with.

“People with graduate degrees favored Kerry over Bush’s bullshit by a ratio of 7 to 1″

What? Liberal Arts degrees?

Why don’t you post your proof of that as well?

As if it means anything anyways, as College students get the full indoctrination nowadays.

How about the fact that people who earn over 50K per year tend to vote for Pubs over Dems?

You know those people – the ones who actually go out in the real world and do something with their lives, and pay a majority of the taxes that the left leaches off of, instead of some lib arts major working at Micky D’s.

Equating a college degree with intelligence or success is a fools argument.

BTW, using your standards, what does that say about Bush, who graduated with an MBA, and Gore, who flunked out of Divinity school?

Oh, and the fact that a composite of all the pre-elections polls nailed the election results pretty much dead-on speaks volumes for their accuracy, unlike the media rigged exit polls.

And one minute, you guys are crying about the butterfly ballots and the next, electronic voting machines.

Maybe we should just let the Dems count the votes.

Over and over and over again, until they get a favorable result, then proclaim victory, much like the Gore team wanted to do in FL in 2000

LOL so now MC Lamb is insinuating that this administration was complicit in 9-11

It’s official – you’re a Kool-Aid drinker.

What flavor is it today?

Grape? Cherry? Orange? Lemon-Lime?

Do you have it with a bowl of Fruit-Loops in the morning?

Now you know why you guys can’t win elections.

It’s not because they’re rigged, it’s because you and much of Dem voting base are lunatics.

Do you honestly think the American public would vote anyone you support into office?

Think again.

BTW Paul from Nashville, too bad Gore couldn’t even win his home state.

Then none of this bullshit about rigged elections would even be brought up, now would it?

I mean, had Bush lost, you guys wouldn’t give a shit about the process.

After all, in your eyes, the ends justifies the means, right?

Sore Losers.

I just love this Bush-bot who goes by the name “quit crying” He has succeeded in using every single talking point the repugs have been using for the last 5 years. Good Job!

Yes indeed, he has been studying the handbook…

From the conservative handbook of how to respond to a post from a moderate,
liberal or anyone with whom you disagree.

1. Don’t do any research yourself. Demand the poster provide verifiable
proof.

2. If proof is provided attack the source or author of the “proof.” The
source or author can be dismissed by referring to their sexual orientation
or calling their patriotism into question. Name calling is allowed as long
as it invokes an emotional response from the poster causing them to divert
from the facts.

If this does not work:

3. Attack the umbrella organization where the “proof” was located. Refer to
the newspaper or organization (ACLU, ADL, NOW, etc.) as not being
communists, homosexual or traitorous. Make baseless accusations the poster
will have to defend. Remember: don’t do ANY research. It takes no time to
make a baseless accusation. If the poster is able to defend the source and
umbrella organization, ignore the proof and go to the next step or go to
step 6 depending on the amount of time you want to waste.

4. Counter the facts with your opinions. NEVER EVER provide any
contradictory sources of argument since the poster can easily turn the
tables at this point and you will have to defend your sources. Remember
don’t get caught up in the facts.

If this does not work:

5. Attack the poster. The purpose of this action is get the poster off the
subject and forget about the facts of the original post. Name calling is in
order. Remember sexual innuendo is the best weapon.

If this does not work:

6. State flatly you don’t believe anything they have written. Demand more
proof and keep demanding more proof. When the poster no longer responds you
have WON the argument!!!! Don’t worry if they add you to their kill file.
Wear it like a badge of HONOR.

You damn right I want the person making accusations to also prove those accusations.

It’s not up to me to dispute accusations, it’s up to the person making them to prove them.

Bush stole the election, was complicit in 9-11, Reagan won because Bush Sr. had Iran hold the hostages, Bush was AWOL, Bush was a Cokehead etc…

All innuendo, and *zero* factual evidence.

I’ve provided facts, and even links to them.

You and other Bush bashers have engaged in the very behavior you are accusing me of in your talking points.

Ironic, isn’t it?

I believe you are projecting.

Quit crying | 6/2/2006, 8:47 pm EST

“People with graduate degrees favored Kerry over Bush’s bullshit by a ratio of 7 to 1″

What? Liberal Arts degrees?

Why don’t you post your proof of that as well?

I know this is complicated for simple minded people who can’t form complex thoughts and can only be offered beliefs by the media and given their understanding of the world through popular culture — a liberal arts degree has nothing to do with being liberal. It means you are focusing on the non-scientific arts, you know like english, math, history, sociology and lots of logic and philosophy classes. So really, someone with a liberal arts degree is actually smarter than any undergrad with a major.

Ever notice how closed minded most people become when they get advanced degrees? They are specialists, and specialists lack skills in other areas, whereas a liberal arts degree gives people the skills to be able to master just about any skill. For example, doctors generally are really poor businessmen, because they have concentrated solely on medicine (which for doctors, shouldn’t be any other way, of course) but with most professions, would it be better to be good at that profession, ONLY, or to be good at that profession as well as being able to form your own opinion, maybe become a historian in your spare time, write novels if the mood strikes you, or even, apparently, know how to drive a car without bringing the transportation grid to a grinding halt by your blinding stupidity and never-ending need to talk to someone even when you’re alone?

hehehe. liberal arts. those damn frickin liberals!

IDIOT.

Quit crying | 6/2/2006, 9:17 pm EST

You damn right I want the person making accusations to also prove those accusations.

It’s not up to me to dispute accusations, it’s up to the person making them to prove them.

I suppose you can’t see the contradiction in that statement, can you?

No you probably have no idea what I’m talking about, because I’m nuts and crazy and I don’t agree with you.

Too bad you don’t have the sophistication to understand this world.

Unfortunately, you are unable to look at any facts that contradict your world view, because you have mistakenly built up your world view into a very narrow interpretation of the world, and any threat to that little bubble of delusion that you live in must be attacked and never given the possibility of being true.

Fortunately, the Germans made that mistake as well. And only good things came from it.

Again, I asked MC Lamb to prove his accusations, and much like Kennedy didn’t, neither did he.

Although I was glad to see RFK’s article in RS, nothing there is new–it’s all been reported elsewhere if you pay attention. The key question is, how to get enough people to care and do something? To start, send the email link to this article to 10 people you know; ask each of them to send it to 10 people they know, and so on. And everyone send a note to CNN and your local newspaper to report on the article, otherwise this will fade from memory–it has to compete with the murder of Iraqis. We Americans can only keep one issue before us for about 60 seconds. So keep this one moving to keep it alive.

Uneducated?

LOL

If you think that not going to some marxist run college means being uneducated, than you’re even stupider than you claim Bush to be.

I probably paid more in taxes than you made last year, yet you somehow think I’m uneducated.

No, I’m smart enough not to get into debt paying back college loans to have some idealogue lefty spewing his marxist bullshit at me, and to get my education in the real world, where it will be useful, and where I succeeded, unlike these liberal arts majors slinging burgers at Mick D’s, and thier elitist thinking of thinking that they are so much smarter than those stupid Republicans like Bush.

Quit Crying, why do you love Bush so much?

He lied about the war (Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction or ties al-Qaeda). He lied about nation building, He also said that the US would not get into a conflict without a clear exit strategy. As of today there is not an exit strategy for Iraq, so he lied. He lied about firing anybody on his staff who leaked information to the press, he lied about not being briefed about the potential impact that Katrina could inflict on New Orleans.
How many lies to have to tell before you are a liar?

Why is it hard to believe that the Bush the liar is not a Bush the thief also. He stole the White House!

That was the short list.

Interesting read and if any of this is true and there is evidence to support your finding Mr Kennedy, then America is in one great big mess. Its up to all of you to really prepare yourself for the next primary election. Recently to my “amusement” – Bush will be campaigning for same sex-marriage hoping to win the confidence over an issue that is hardly doing any justice to the image of America.

Its laughable absolutely laughable!! Although there is really nothing funny about all the men and women who are fighting in Iraq and with all the wild accusations going on – possible attrocities by the soldiers, is really looking very very bad for America’s image. I think everyone should collectively pay attention to everything that has been going on and really make an effort to go to the polls and wait as long as possible to cast your vote, all night long if you have to, its the only way you can win.

Many of you who gave up because the lines were too long is not a good enough reason to stay away. You have a lot at stake. Even in Canada when we decided that we had enough of our former party’s corruptions – we decided that its time for a new change in government. Its up to all of you to decide and make the difference. By staying away, gives the “crooks” more ammunition to set the country back and America is a great country but its public relations is in jeopardy!!!! Decide!!! Act!!! Don’t be silent!!! Make your voice count!!! Go to the polls and cast your vote!!!

And if there is discrepancy there – do something about it at that moment. Don’t ignore it!!! Wish you all luck!!

Toronto-Canada

I’m pretty sure you did not pay as much in taxes as I earned. We can whip out our W2’s and have a sword fight, if you like, but let’s just say I paid over a million in taxes last year, and leave it at that.

And I have a liberal arts degree. I don’t flip burgers, I buy and sell the companies that employ the burger flippers. My financial adviser also has a liberal arts degree, and probably also paid more in taxes than you paid in taxes and what not. blah blah blah. Money isn’t everything, trust me. It doesn’t answer any argument in any way. Money is just something you have for a while and then someone else has it after that. It’s like water. It’s a consumable commodity, yet a renewable resource, as well.

BTW, I never said bush was stupid. You’re mixing up posters on this thread. If I had to comment on Bush, I’d say he is a party boy with rich parents who got a good job through connections. I can’t comment on his intelligence as I have not met the guy personally, and can’t say for sure (yeah, I called you an idiot in an earlier post, but I think you know I can’t really know that, though your unwillingness to even consider contradicting facts leads me to that end)

Why is it hard to believe these people would steal an election. Here is another example of what Bush does:

May 29th, 2006 4:48 pm
Bush ‘planted fake news stories on American TV’

By Andrew Buncombe / The Independent

Federal authorities are actively investigating dozens of American television stations for broadcasting items produced by the Bush administration and major corporations, and passing them off as normal news. Some of the fake news segments talked up success in the war in Iraq, or promoted the companies’ products.

Investigators from the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) are seeking information about stations across the country after a report produced by a campaign group detailed the extraordinary extent of the use of such items.

The report, by the non-profit group Centre for Media and Democracy, found that over a 10-month period at least 77 television stations were making use of the faux news broadcasts, known as Video News Releases (VNRs). Not one told viewers who had produced the items.

Quit crying appears to have dragged this blog down to the level at which he feels comfortable, a kind of muddied slanging match which reflects of the type of invective that emanates from the party he appears to support. I get the feeling that many people that support Bush just do it for the pose, like to feel like tough guys and throw around tough language, how sad!

It will be very interesting to see how the exit polls in the November Ohio governor’s election compare to the posted results. Lemme tell you: Blackwell is one scary dude and has a temper the size of LaVeque Tower.

I just want to add another comment if you all truly agree with the article, then write to Robert Kennedy, let him have your support – urge him to dig deaper, look for facts, expose the evidence to the media – do something if you truly believe that it can change the outcome. The more legitimate complaints are made the more ammunition you can give to the media who will push forward for this. I just don’t think hearing it alone from Mr Kennedy is sufficient to get this thing moving forward.

Years ago, an election was stolen from a brilliant man named Robert Kennedy in a very tragic way.

The past two presidential elections, the voters have been cheated out of a competent president instead of the incompetent one we have now.

I live in Texas, and I KNOW the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen. Robert Kennedy Jr.’s article makes it clear to me how. Thank You.

We all have a right to make our voice heard. As Senator Robert Kennedy pointed out, each voice has a ripple effect and our country runs on this effect and makes progress on this effect; those who take it away from us should be locked up.

They do that anywhere people are bringing out the truth. They’re even trying to pump up sex videos in Google Video’s top 100, because a few 9/11 documentaries had legitimately risen to the top slots. It was fairly obvious because for the last year or so, no sexually oriented videos ever appeared in the top 100, except a few random appearances here and there. Overnight, there were 7 or 8 in the top 10, and more are appearing and working their way up. That’s typical cynical behavior of greedy, self-serving people. “Sex sells” is the mantra of the public relations crowd.

It’s obviously a concerted effort.

Speaking of public relations — just like in WWI, soldiers suffered from shell shock, and in WWII, they suffered from “combat fatigue”, and in Vietnam they suffered from “Post traumatic stress disorder”, the names are never the same. So people feel all warm and fuzzy about the term “Public relations”, even though simply changing the name doesn’t change the fact that changing public opinion and controlling the information is still bad, wrong and evil. “But they have public relations departments at even the best, nicest institutions” people will say. But I think most people don’t realize that German corporations, and all unions and government agencies had propaganda departments.

Calling it “pink bunnies and really nice things like that” would still not change the fact that information is manipulated and the truth you think you know is only the truth of the moment, given to you by your benevolent rulers.

duh.

and oh, don’t expect the media to pick this up. Believe me, every journalist in this country already knows about this story. A reporter I work with told me about it 2 weeks ago.

Journalists have editors. Editors have and Editor in Chief. EIC’s have Presidents, or CEO’s or Chairman. They all answer to someone above them. Plus, all of the major media outlets (print, tv, even internet) are owned by large agglomerations that have a vested interest in the furtherance of this neocon agenda. GE is the world’s largest defense contractor. Do you think NBC nightly news is going to bight the hand that feeds it, and report something that might show the public what a lie the whole war is, or how the elections were stolen? nah. not a chance.

I know many journalists who are chomping at the bit to get this information out. I think that’s why blogs took off so fast, because journalists couldn’t report unhindered at work, so they went home and let out the steam in blogs.

RFK’s piece is loaded with innuendo and little fact. He alleges a nation-wide conspiracy yet can not find enough evidence for one person to be charged. If the strongest “evidence” he has is the exit polls didn’t match the actual votes closely enough, he has little, if any, solide evidence to stand on.

Give it up RFK.

I should add that the journalists I know are all republicans. Or, more accurately, like me, former republicans who can no longer keep our heads in the sand and just assume that magically only the best, most benevolent people get into office, or that by getting elected, you become infallible and know all the angles on an issue and make the right decision every time.

I started off with the assumption that they made bad choices and decisions. But the deeper I went into the rabbit hole, the more I realized how it is entirely by design, a plan laid out years and years ago to take this country apart, steal the treasury and then move on to the next large nation (china?) — parasites come in many forms. One married Herbert Walker’s daughter, funded the nazis and gave birth to our president’s father, for example.

college graduate graduate degree… however, if you believe *any of those stats, you are relying on… um… exit polling. I guess they aren’t worthless so long as you agree with them.

brackets eaten, sorry – the garble above should read: college grad (not equal to) graduate degree.

When all you asshole benedict arnolds that go on about “crying over the lost election” get done with your selfrighteous goose steping commie comments go read the evidence that has been CLEARLY listed. If you cannot even do that you are simply the nazis that smelled the jews burning but didnt want to say anything…

Night of long knives? Oh yes THAT WILL SAVE THE UNION! Because when the republicans have given up on democracy what is left?

And what is with the democrats? I worked for a republican PAC in the mid 90s that bragged about how they were going to start redistricting to prevent democrats from have a majority vote. I reported this to the DNC and no one contacted me back and they got away with it in Texas…

Right, Left,
You are all fools! You should live so long, to see that 5000 years of politics has brought nothing but uncounted misery to man. Not to list poverty of the body and spirit? But fear-not Mother Earth is about to punish us all with extinction so take one last look back.

Unlike many here, I’m not claiming that the exit polls are proof postive of anything.

I merely posted it to show how ridiculous MC Lamb’s statement was that College Grads voted Kerry 7:1 over Bush, when every poll, exit poll or otherwise, shows a signifigantly different number.

And again, a composite of every legit pre-election poll shows Bush winning by almost the exact same number he won by.

The Kennedy article is all long on rhetoric, but short on facts.

I want evidence, not partisan, unfounded accusations.

He’ll have to do better.

Much, much better.

He would if he could, but he can’t, so he won’t.

Bottom line is, Bush won fair and square, not once, but twice, and the left can’t face facts and are they in denial about their platform being a failure, like most leftist ideology usually is.

So they smear Bush with lies about him being dumb, stealing elections, being complicit in 9-11, and a host of other stupid lies which makes them look incompetent, and not the other way around.

So, as my user name says, quit crying.

This entire thread is a microcosm of why you guys don’t win, not because of rigged elections.

Oh yeah, if you want to talk about stolen elections, how about when Ashcroft was defeated for I believe it was Governor of Missouri after a Democrat judge ordered polls to stay open an extra few hours because it appeared Ashcroft would win?

Instead, the polls stayed opened an extra few hours, and the Dems got out enough votes to defeat Ashcroft.

But hey, the ends justifies the means, and an evil Republican was defeated, so it was the right thing to do, right?

Thank you for writing the article and bringing awareness to this situation. I’m thoroughly disgusted by the fraud but I am also frustrated by the lack of recourse. My only complaint is that I would have liked a section of the article to address what we should do about this? If our elected officials are going to gloss over it and protests obviously mean nothing to our leaders, not to mention the lack of initiative and integrity of the press, then what can we realistically do about it? I’ve participated in this so-called democracy and my actions don’t seem to make any difference. What is our next move and can it be effective?

This has a clear, legal and obligatory solution. One that is documented and has precident leading back to our country’s founding.

In case anyone has forgot, here is an unabridged excerpt from The Declaration of Independence:

“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

This administration is riddled with abuses and now it’s clearly the result of a deliberate usurpation of the Executive branch. We have our motive.

The executive branch has been hijacked, the appointees to the Judicial branch have toppled the balance in favor of this illegitimate wartime deserter, congress has STILL not started impeachment preceedings (which by the way should immediately be followed by war crimes and criminal trials charging them with high treason)…

All
three
branches
have
been
compromised…

They’ve forgotten the fourth. Us.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Hey when the democrats get back in I vote we use every foul thing the republicans have done in the past 6 years against them. They passed it… they made this the new status quo… let them suffer it. They want to go on about people not supporting them are unpatriotic… let them support the democrats or face jail time. Lets not just talk tuff … lets be tuff … and see if they decide they want to follow the Constitution after all.

People who are quick to label the inquisitive as “conspiracy nuts” are poor students of history and human nature. They undermine democracy in ways that evil men can only dream.

Bravo to Mr. Kennedy and Rolling Stone. Your courage is inspiring.

pink bunnies?
HUH.

“Right wingers LOVE to throw around comparisons of the left to Nazis”

You then proceed to compare conservatives to Nazis.

Do you even read what you post?

And, name one civil liberty you’ve lost under the Patriot Act.

I can post numerous instances of how people have had their 2nd Amendment rights comprimised by the Dems.

Can you post one single instance of Americans having their Constitutional rights being comprmised by Bush or the Patriot Act?

Just one factual occurance.

Once again, the left is projecting, and accusing Pubs of engaging in the very behavior that they engage in.

Gerald Gibson | 6/2/2006, 10:53 pm EST

When all you asshole benedict arnolds that go on about “crying over the lost election” get done with your selfrighteous goose steping commie comments go read the evidence that has been CLEARLY listed. If you cannot even do that you are simply the nazis that smelled the jews burning but didnt want to say anything…

Night of long knives? Oh yes THAT WILL SAVE THE UNION! Because when the republicans have given up on democracy what is left?

————–

Okay, it took me a while to realize you were critizing the people who are denying this article, or in other words, the hard-core republicans (who don’t even know who they are supporting, Straussian neo-cons don’t hold the same values that a true republican holds, most neocons are “reformed” socialists and many are major adherents to Leon Trotsky)

National Socialism wasn’t about socializing society, at least not in the way we would think. Socialism in those days must have meant corporate rule, most adult males in the military and “undesirables” being dealt with in the most efficient and productive manner possible (work them to death, and the ones that can’t or won’t work get to go to the showers). Sadly, these dolts that keep blathering on about how great Bush is are doing the exact same thing that most Germans did in the 1930’s. They let pride, ego and a sense of power and being a part of a group blind them to the realities of the day. I’m sure they didn’t even realize, when Germany invaded Libya, that it would lead to the full-scale world war that unfolded years later. Each time they supported what seemed reasonable at the time, they were forcing themselves to accept the next, less reasonable action or else they would have to accept their own complicity in the previous action. Even as these actions became less and less reasonable, and eventually moronic and atrocious, they were becoming more and more tolerant of the unreasonable and less capable of recognizing it. It’s called “buying into the party line,” once you’ve bought it, you have to adhere to it to the very end, or face a crisis of conscience.

Gerald Gibson | 6/2/2006, 10:59 pm EST

And what is with the democrats? I worked for a republican PAC in the mid 90s that bragged about how they were going to start redistricting to prevent democrats from have a majority vote. I reported this to the DNC and no one contacted me back and they got away with it in Texas…

——————–

Yes, like I’ve been trying to say — they’re in cahoots. Two sides of the very same coin. I think it’s a paradigm that they figured would enable them to do one thing and say another, basically.

People just need to start questioning EVERYTHING. I’m not saying DENY, or GO AGAINST, but just simply QUESTION, and expect an answer. I think maybe many people have been so degraded, intellectually, through the environment, our water, the entertainment landscape, and what-not, that they can’t fully do this, but they should form their OWN opinions, rather than repeat the opinions of the media outlet they feel supports their viewpoint or that they feel offers the safest answers. People need to hold the government accountable. Not expect the government to hold itself accountable. The way the system has been set up (and I live about 7 miles outside DC and work downtown, right next to the white house, and know many people in all levels of government right up to a former drug czar) is that the various agencies and departments are little feifdoms, with a lord sitting at the top, each trying to become the head honcho in the district, they all drive around in armed motorcades like little despots, and there’s always the threat of losing all of that, and your pension, and your reputation if you don’t follow along with the current administration or whoever is exerting the most power at that moment. It’s a wonderful system, if you’re into power and don’t care about the implications on a democratic republic. It’s especially great if you have low self esteem and a hyper-inflated ego, and view other people as worthless, less and lower than you, and only a tool to get what you want. It works really well for the two parties. They each serve the same purpose in the end, which is for government to have more and more power, more control over every person’s everyday life. As long as you agree that every person should wear blue shirts and green pants, you don’t think of a policy requiring every person to wear blue shirts and green pants as “intrusive”, I suppose because you’re going to do it anyway. It’s the people that are affected that care, and of course if you don’t care you can’t understand why those people are whining and complaining.

Like “if you don’t have anything to hide, you won’t mind me sticking my finger up your ass to check. I’ll wear a glove, it’ll be alright. Only the people with things up their asses have anything to worry about.” I hear otherwise “educated” and “successful” people say that all the time, “who cares if they listen to our phone calls, I don’t have anything to hide” or my all time favorite “9/11 changed everything” (which is basically an admission of defeat, a declaration of the terrorists’ victory, as terrorism’s goal is to affect political change through the use of random violence. What they’re saying is that they want to be more like Israel, they don’t think they have to open their handbags ENOUGH!)

Hey Tahoma, you had paper ballots.

Remember the Butterfly ballots?

Yes, you guys complained about those as well.

Then you wanted an infinite number of recounts until you got a favorable result.

Is this what you mean by “count all the votes”?

I’m from cincinnati, and voted for Kerry in 2004.

I must say that many people here seem to be taking the wrong message home from this… the article doesn’t actually answer the question that is posed by the title, really. What it does reveal is an incredibly poorly effective electoral system and regardles of who it did or did not favor, such things NEED to be addressed.

And to all those who take the simplistic “stop whining look to the future” you imply that there isn’t enough investigative effort to both care about the future AND the past… and this is a fallacious assumption. Especially when the lessons from the past, in this case, are DIRECTLY relevant to the future.

Well, the Republicans have been trying to clean up the process for quite some time, like requiring things like proper ID to cast a vote, but the Dems fight them tooth and nail on that.

Why would the Dems be opposed to having voters prove that they are indeed the same person on the list of registered voters?

We know why, just wondering if anyone here on the left will admit it.

Patrick | 6/3/2006, 12:08 am EST

People who are quick to label the inquisitive as “conspiracy nuts” are poor students of history and human nature. They undermine democracy in ways that evil men can only dream.

Bravo to Mr. Kennedy and Rolling Stone. Your courage is inspiring.

——

WELL SAID! I caught on to how they were building the “conspiracy nut” moniker back in the late 70’s and early 80’s. Though they’d been using that as a smokescreen well back into the 1940’s and 1950’s, but they really got traction in the 80’s for sure, and the 90’s without a doubt.

I bet “quit crying” really believes that anyone who questions the current administration also believes in UFOs, Atlantis and the bermuda triangle. Lump everything into one group of “those nuts” and then you have a great cop-out available anytime someone can successfully counter your every argument, you can just throw them into the “conspiracy nut” bin. (oddly, believing in UFOs isn’t even a conspiracy, unless you’re crazy enough to think the US government is working with them to control the world, in which case, that is a crazy conspiracy theory. The theories might be crazy, but the people usually are not)

The sad reality of that whole debasement of the word conspiracy is that it also tells you what is really going on. To create a label like this, to demonize people who notice a conspiracy, to put that much effort into marginalizing anyone who comes forward with a true conspiracy, it pretty much indicates that you plan on committing some form of conspiracy. Once you get that going, all you have to do is be audacious and commit really really big crimes that most people would just assume you couldn’t do.

Unfortunately, you can go to dictionary.com and look up the word conspiracy, and it actually does exist, it is a real legal term, and people get convicted of it all the time. However, while these same people use the term conspiracy to imprison ordinary (albeit maybe morally questionable) citizens, they’ve succeeded in deflecting any implication of conspiracy amongst themselves by ridiculing anyone who might question their actions. Pretty slick, really.

Quit crying | 6/3/2006, 12:17 am EST

Hey Tahoma, you had paper ballots.

Remember the Butterfly ballots?

Yes, you guys complained about those as well.

Then you wanted an infinite number of recounts until you got a favorable result.

Is this what you mean by “count all the votes”?
————

You seem to view the world in a very egomanical way. You think that there’s YOU, and then “EVERYONE ELSE” and all those people think in lock-step.

There are many viewpoints, many opinions. Some people got confused by butterfly ballots, this is true, but just like the equation “A=B and B=C” does not imply that “D=F”, just because someone who “opposes” you doesn’t mean they hold all the beliefs and opinions of everyone else that “opposes” you.

Some people believe that George Bush masturbated in a coffin. While that is what the Skull and Bones do for initiation, that doesn’t mean that anyone opposed to the policies of George Bush believes he masturbated in a coffin.

You need to develop your mind a bit, read some history, begin to understand that people are individuals with varying degress of beliefs and opinions.

Just because you are the victim of group-think, doesn’t mean everyone else is.

So, you support torture, because you support bush, right? No, you probably just deny that torture existed because you can’t reconcile that behavior. (and who could?) But that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, being documented and all.

I went to the vote returns for the President and Chief Justice and he is right, except he omits a few things that complicate his claim.

The tally for President (and U.S. Senator, which is also available on another page) lists the partisan affiliation of the candidate. The returns for Chief Justice don’t, which suggest they may not have appeared on the ballots either. I’ve voted in countless judicial elections wondering where the candidates really stood, since they usually don’t list partisan affiliation and are often prohibited from saying how they would rule. If that is the same in Ohio, Kennedy’s claim that judicial returns should mirror partisan races is a real stretch. However, lets say for the sake of argument, Connally was known as a Democrat or campaigned vigorously under the Democratic party affiliation and thus she was seen as the “Democrat” in race of Chief Justice while the other candidate, J. Thomas Moyer, was seen as the “Republican”, and yes there are these 12 counties where Connally’s vote exceeded Kerry’s. It turns out, a similar “anomaly” occurred on the Republican side. Bush’s vote total was 500,000 higher than Moyer’s, yet in four counties, Bush’s total is 15,000 votes below that of Moyer. Now, lets say Kerry had won the election and someone told you Bush’s total was below that of another candidate in an officially nonpartisan judicial race and there were a couple of claims from Republican activists that dead people had voted, would that convince many people the election was stolen?

Absent credible evidence of ballot box stuffing (or shredding), then the issue reverts back to the vote counts and, more importantly, the recount. Kennedy doesn’t have much to say about the recount and what he mostly does say is mostly based on more hearsay. There apparently is a case that may be the subject of a judicial ruling, when he cites the precinct in Cleveland.

However, as evidence of vote manipulation; this assertion as a real complication. Notice how he doesn’t mention who won the precinct or the political affiliation of the officials were. Since Cleveland went overwhelmingly for Kerry, there is a good chance this wasn’t a Republican area and officials they weren’t Republicans, if they were, I’m sure he would have said so.

So, we end up back with the issue of exit polls versus the actual results. Exit polls are not infallible, they’ve been wrong plenty of times before. Which is probably why no big name Democrat is claiming the election was stolen.

Given that most people think Bush is a disaster of a President today, it maybe soothing to exonerate the public from culpability for his re-election, but this article doesn’t make a strong case that he didn’t win legitimately.

If you republicans are so proud of the man who stole the last two elections and who stayed on vacation eating cake and strumbing a guitar while Americans went without food and water and diapers for their children for 4 days. Please just take your president and declare that the south won, The red states can have their president and we can have ours.

I remember the election well. John Kerry is a war hero and you should be ashamed that you smeared him and laughed at him. People in Ohio took to the streets following the elections but the media didn’t report it.

I have a college degree and worked my way though college. I don’t make alot of money because I am a social worker. I remember John Kennedy as a good president who told us to ask not what the country can do for us but to ask what we can do for our country. We don’t need to get into a pissing match about how much money we make. That is about greed not about how productive a citizen we are.

Like St Ronnie, king george cuts taxes to the very people who can afford to pay them, while he takes away the services to the very people who need them the most, children, the disabled and the elderly. History will judge us by the way we treat the people who need our help. Quit crying I wouldn’t want to be you for all your money.

I’m sorry that you republicans feel that you must smear the Kennedy’s. Yes they have made mistakes, but they have done alot to make the country a better place. They truly ask what they can do for their country. Carl Rove must have realized that this story was coming out because he sure made sure that the media roasted the Kennedy’s again over a tragic accident.

And last but not least, please quit crying read one of the many books on king george. He did in fact drink, go AWOL and had 3 failed businesses to boot.

very powerwful people helped steal that election and they should bring indictments against all of them and some previous occupiers of the white house,specifically those of the republican adminstration,then convict them and deliver them to a federal prison say in cuba. jail.

Democracy, the right to vote, whatever our Constitution supposedly guarantees, is a joke. Sure, it would be great if voting was transparent. Yet, judging by Kennedy’s extensive analysis, we’re a million miles away from such a Utopian version of Democracy. Dream on America! It’s a Texas oil man’s world and you’re just living in it!
How them gas prices treating ya?! The Dems should take up arms against the Republicans. Perhaps a good old-fashioned Civil War is the only way out of America’s pathetic downward spiral of Capitalist greed. Of course, the Republicans got all the guns…

Robert J. Kennedy Jr. conducted enough research to cast severe doubt on the 2004 election results. Such flawed administration of the election process is outrageuos. Our Fourth Estate abdicating its role in a democratic society is despicable. But for American voters not to be up in arms in the face of the possibility of grand-scale voter fraud is incomprehensible. How much more does it take for the people and the coporate media to wake up to the fact that the entire process absolutely requires an in-depth investigation? How much more does it take for the people to flood ALL political offices and ALL media news outlets with demands for an official investigation? In a truly transparent society the party in power, the opposition party, and all the media would have the desire to erase all doubt in the democratic process and lay this issue to rest.

looks like this article has brought out alot of the republican operatives again…just like the fake protest they flew down to Miami in 2000 (on Ken Lay’s jet, wasn’t it?) to stop the vote count.

always a good sign, when you see the rat-fucker acolytes start gnawing at the truth, hoping to kill it.

you know they’re feeling panicky.

donald c. gretty | 6/3/2006, 1:54 am EST

looks like this article has brought out alot of the republican operatives again…just like the fake protest they flew down to Miami in 2000 (on Ken Lay’s jet, wasn’t it?) to stop the vote count.

always a good sign, when you see the rat-fucker acolytes start gnawing at the truth, hoping to kill it.

you know they’re feeling panicky.

———–

Basically, if you don’t get a reaction, you know you’re on the wrong track.

If you hit a nerve, you’ll get a response.

They only suppress the crazy conspiracy theories that apparently hit too close to home. They tend to ignore the fringe conspiracies that they know they’re not guilty of.

They’re pretty transparent once you stop buying the party line.

I WIN!

You guys are all nuts! I win.

You’re crazy! I win!

that’s not true! I win.

Prove it! I win!

That source is biased. I WIN!

I WIN! I WIN! I WIN!

Hey, how come there’s no soap in this shower? Why are they opening a hole in the roof? Hey! What’s that strange gas coming in through that hole? Hey!?!? ggaaaagggh.

cough. die.

bye bye believer.

They’ll get you when they’re ready. Keep supporting the party.

Hey Quit Crying: Did you read RFK Jr’s article? MAYBE all the election day vote count anomalies can be explained. But the long election lines that were created in Democratic areas by supplying insufficient numbers of voting machine is just 1 example of Blackwell’s clearly illegitimate tactics to throw the election. Several of his creeped out tactics, as readers of the article will recall, were overturned by judges, but the damage to full voter participation was already done by then. All the contra Kennedy posts I’ve read here have barely discussed Kennedy’s many detailed accounts of Blackwell & Co.’s assaults on the right to vote.

T-Bone: “Bush is President.”

For now…..

T-Bone: “Whining will not change that.”

No. But subpoenia power will.

T-Bone: “Live with it.”

Sorry; gonna change it instead.

TC and maxcat, exit polling is disturbingly accurate and it didn’t work this time? No, you guys have it wrong. There was massive turnout in Ohio, jobs in Ohio have left for China and high unemployment.

Notice a pattern, first Florida, Ohio, and next will be Calif. as the governator appointed the SEc. State Bruce McPherson who approved,with all its problems the use of diebold and is running again.Please Don’t vote for him.

I like how you guys keep saying if Gore had won his state, we don’t know who won what, because we now know voting machines have been proven to be hackable by blackboxvoting.org and numerous noted scientists looking into this issue. So, please don’t use that tired excuse.

Karl Rove’s tactic had to only make it look like a close race and he did. The exit polling never went for GWB. He wasn’t popular.Kerry polled the close winner just outside the margin of error. Zogby polled GWB under 50%, historically no president has been re-elected with those numbers. I’m convinced this was fraud because the American people were not stupid enough to vote for GWB

Every human being on this planet simply, and instinctually just wants to survive, avoid pain, and provide for their progeny. Some people are too uneducated, or too greedy or too dumb to undertand and act accordingly.

Until we build a system that understands and recognizes that “truth”, we will continue to find ourselves in a state of conflict.

The idea that we need to “compete” for precious resources only serves people who’ve situated themselves in a positon to gain advantage from that idea. This is really a very huge planet, and it has more than enough space to accomodate the populations we have now.

If we are not focusing on the forward, if we’re not putting our energies into advancing as a society, we are selling ourselves short.

All people have a right to exist. All people have a right to feed and clothe their children. All people have a right to not have a government dictate their behaviors, actions or thoughts.

That’s just basic reasoning. It’s not a result of being “given” or “granted” those rights. Those a a basic. So then we construct a government to attempt to preserve this concept. Unfortunately, through evolution and time, these concepts become bastardized. Eventually, it’s not a right, it’s a privilege. Or, eventually, it’s not about preserving the plan, but preserving the status of those currently enjoying some form of status. The government, which people agreed to form to protect their sovereignty and their livelihood now becomes an entity in itself, almost like it has its own survival instinct and desire to expand and grow.

But people made the government to codify and solidify the social structure they devised, to protect them from foreign bandits and ensure they can continue to prosper. People should always be the direct beneficiaries of any government action, not the victims.

if this were really true, and reflected an exclusive bias on the part of GOP to fix the vote, then why are the democrat donkeys not suing the hell out of the GOP? clearly people are not going to “take to the streets”, but if the dems ain’t bothering to manifest themselves, and they have money and resources to do this properly and in the courts, why should anyone else bother? Maybe the dems are waiting for the next election to copy their tactics as they see how successful they ahve been. In any case, I would like to see bush out and Gore / Kerry in, but I must wonder as to whhy the dems are appearing so spineless and inactive. unless they have done the same in the past, and it would not do to open this can of worms.

Hey I got an idea-
Whenever someone makes legit arguments and factual points, let’s make fun of their families and talk about their personal lives instead of the issue?

Three reasons why I think the 2004 election was rigged.

1. I live in Ohio and saw some of the hanky panky, but not in the detail reported in RFK Jr.’s article, which is really pretty frightening. By the way, no one has been able to discredit the allegations made in Ohio; they’ve only tried to make excuses for them, but with all the anomolies at play in this state, the excuses don’t add up to anything more than excuses by people who want to cover over the facts or simply can’t face them.

2. The exit polls. Exit polls don’t lie. If they did, elections elsewhere in the world would not be overturned as a result of them. Exit polls are not just early predictors of an election outcome, they are a kind of check and balance mechanism against corrupt elections. Ask Zogby about this one.

3. Bush’s standing in the polls before he was even inaugurated. As we all know, Bush’s poll numbers are in the toilet. But they didn’t just get that way. They were pretty darn low in January even before he was inaugurated. So why is that? Why would a president who had just won an election be floating in the toilet bowl ready to be flushed before he was crowned fora second term?

The Republican strategy is clear. What they did in 2004 was a repeat of what they did in 2000 writ large. The only way they could win is by certain votes not being counted; so they used tactics that suppressed, confused, intimidated or out and out striped away the voting rights of large numbers of people sharing demographic characteristics that made them likely not to vote for Republicans. Our current president was not only appointed to office by the Supreme Court for his first term, he was elected to his second term not because of the votes he won but because of the votes not counted. This of course is not legitimate and might explain the continued lack of legitimacy that permeates both this administration and Ohio politics in general these days.

How do we get back to honest or at least semi-honest government? Well, the first thing you’ve got to do in acknowledge the wrong doing so that future politicians will have the fear of getting caught to keep them in check. If a kid steals candy and his parents chose to avoid it because they don’t want to admit that their child is a thief, the kid will just continue to steal candy and who knows what else later on. If the theft is brought to light, however, the kid will stop because he will know he is under scrutiny. And his younger siblings will not likely follow in his footsteps for the same reason. Yes, it is as simple as that.

Speaking as a Canadian who once was a DRO (Deputy Returning Officer) for a provincial election, I have to say that I am utterly shocked by what I read here. Not only at the corruption, but at the system itself.

How has this system managed to remain intact without reform? There are elements of it that make this sort of election-stealing possible:

1. Political parties registering voters. This just blew me away. Not only does it mean that voter registration is immediately partisan, but it also means that upon registration, anybody who wants to rig an election knows EXACTLY who to disenfranchise! Up here in Canada, voter registration is done by a government agency, and there is no party involvement allowed at all. So, even if you do want to rig an election by disenfranchising voters, you don’t know how anybody is going to vote to begin with, and the tactic stops working.

2. Party officials having access to election results. What?! This is exactly the fox guarding the hen house. Up here in Canada, party officials aren’t allowed to even touch the ballots, and the people who count them are screened too.

3. Election officials being permitted to have active party affiliations. Again, the fox is guarding the hen house. The very fact that Blackwell is a member of the Republican party should have disqualified him from being an election official, same as if he had been a Democrat.

4. Votes counted by machines. Um…there is an old question of “who watches the watchers?” In this case, who oversees the machines? In a system this important, there should always be human beings at the end of it, no matter what. Up here, votes are counted by hand, and the DRO is held responsible if there are any anomalies.

The American electoral system needs some serious reform. It needs to take voter registration out of the hands of the political parties, and for that matter, make the political parties nothing more than observers on election day. Perhaps it’s time for the American government to take a close look at Elections Canada and learn…

Isn’t it a bit late to be complaining about this? And don’t give me the, “and where were you on election night when….!” That is bullshit! Do you think that we should trust the democrats to do the right thing? Maybe we should pass some laws insuring that this doesn’t happen again….. Goddam Bush admits that he breaks the laws he doesn’t approve of…..and the dems would do the same thing. It IS over for America

Some of the people who were involved in this voter fraud and in stealing this election must by now be feeling the ache of guilt. Someone in this whole Republican party esp in Ohio must be willing to stand up and absolve their crime by confessing and naming names. It took a lot of people to do this, a lot of people with the same mind set and same goals, some of them, one of them at least must be having regrets. To perpetrate this to this extent it had to be some kind of conspirisy (sp?) Can’t we prosecute under RICCO? and doesn’t anyone want to stand up and let the world know? Someone out there must be feeling really guilty. Look at the deaths in Iraq, those deaths, both civilian and our military are your fault. Their blood is on your hands. Don’t you want to fix things? To those of you who were part of this – please confess — let’s get the people who did this and put them all behind bars….

Every election since 2000 has been stolen – history tells us that the only way facists relinguish power is through total WAR.

Bush said the other day that Iraq is the opening salvo to WWIII.

America is fast becoming a Police State. Once we lost the Press we lost our Democracy (says our founding fathers).

If we get our Democracy back it’ll take nearly total destruction of the country to do so. Be careful what you say and do – the Nazi SS (NSA, CIA & Pentagon) is watching your every move.

What complete garbage! Kennedy–like a lot of liberals–just can’t stand to live with the results if it doesn’t go his way. What a baby. I’ve never read so much obfuscation and nuanced facts in all my life. Kennedy needs to step out of his private jet, get into his SUV and get back to environmental issues.

A rational person and true American — be they Republican or Democrat — would respond to allegations of massive election impropriety by at least saying it deserves investigation and the problems should be corrected.

Even if one didn’t believe the allegations — but did care about the confidence in our system and integrity of our government — one should seek an investigation to clear up these charges believed to be false.

Instead, the neoCon fascists in the White House and on this board react by:

1) Calling accusers “sore losers”
2) Attacking the messenger
3) Denying the evidence
4) then finally retreat to the claim that both sides are guilty or the entire system is corrupt so neoCon election fraud isn’t all that bad.

Real Patriots care for and protect the Constitution and Democracy in the United States.

Even ignoring what was said in the article, just look at this board. Isn’t is obvious from their responses that the neoCon fascists here and in the Whte House behave like the treasonous criminal the evidence suggests that they are?

why the hell is a Senators son writing this, and not the senator. Kennedy is a pussy, Kennedy Jr rocks!

Let’s take a look at Mr. Kennedy’s judgement. He claims: “what is most anomalous about the irregularities in 2004 was their decidedly partisan bent: Almost without exception they hurt John Kerry and benefited George Bush. After carefully examining the evidence, I’ve become convinced that the president’s party mounted a massive, coordinated campaign to subvert the will of the people in 2004.”
That is an obvious falsehood, an he should know better.

Anyone with even basic knowledge of national politics knows that Democrats engage in massive voter fraud across the nation. Philadelphia, for example, has more registered voters than eligible adults. Democrats were caught slashing tires of Repub operatives, thousands of felons voted illegally in Florida and elsewhere, Dems have caught over the years bribing bums, voting for the senile elderly and retarded, encouraging illegal immigrants and prisoners to vote, illegally using absentee ballots, handing out “walking around” money, etc. etc.

In fact, the “Motor Voter” bill signed by Clinton made it far easier to commit voter fraud by making it more difficult for states to purge voter rolls.

If Kennedy is so myopic as to begin his article with an obvious falsehood, only a fool would accept his opinion on the rest of it.

actually it doesnt make you hate the GOP so much, it makes you hate Democarats for letting them get away with it.

Thank you for your incredible research, clear reporting and unbelievable exposure to such corruption. The sad part is that there appears no majority is concerned with these findings. Regardless of political leaning, this is a sad state of affairs for our country. I hope more people will appreciate your leadership in shinning the spotlight for change.

It is quite possible that the level of fraud was not great enough to have actually changed the election result. However, even one instance in which in can be proven that this administration (and those that work on Bush’s behalf with his blessing) has disenfranchised even one voter should be cause for impeachment.

Bush has sworn to uphold the constitution which guarantees us the right to vote. In as much as he has condoned and fostered efforts to intimidate and exclude voters, he is in dereliction of his duty.

We have accepted his dirty tricks on the campaign trail and excused it as business as usual. But this is far more than dirty politics. This is a crime, and we can not let it go unpunished, even if it were only one voter.

If we cannot ensure fair elections, our democracy is meaningless.

To everyone who says the MSM would *love* to get their hands on GWB — you’re kidding, right? The MSM is a grouping of large corporations, who are interested in preserving the status quo; leaders of corporations may favor one party over another, but mostly they want to keep making millions of dollars, and are most likely to act in a way that preserves the niche they’ve made for themselves. Their main aim is self-preservation (like most of us). Please, stop listening to talking heads who keep screaming about “the liberal media”; the media is full of people with all sorts of political leanings, and there is no monolithic “the media” that’s out to get you. Before you start pointing at tinfoil hats, take off your own first.

Regarding stolen elections: I don’t trust the Republicans to be honest, and I don’t trust the Democrats to be responsible. At least, not without extreme social pressure. Because they want to preserve their 2-party system hegemony, neither party will make a move unless they know they have significant social backing. So for everyone who’s wondering why the Dems are sitting on their hands, that’s your answer.

I’d like to point out that George Washington warned that having political parties was a bad idea, and given recent events I think he was right. Parties allow voters to pick without thinking, choosing officials by the label as opposed to what’s inside the package. They also make it easier to do sneaky things behind the scenes, as we’ve seen for decades now. To me, the only viable solution is to have publicly funded elections (which have already been working successfully in a number of states) and eliminate the formal recognition of political parties. A candidate needs to get elected based on merit, not based on how much money she can raise or on a name tag slapped on her chest. Political parties have failed us, and the time has come to learn to do without them. Oh, and the electoral college too!

I did not have to read the Rolling Stone article by RFK, Jr., to know that what he said is true: that the 2004 election in Ohio (among other states) was stolen. Anyone with a memory and some logic could see that it was nearly inevitable and how it was done.

After the theft of the presidency in 2000, a few of us tried to warn our fellow citizens to be on guard for 2004. When the infamous remark by the maker of the Diebold voting machines was published – wherein he said he would “deliver” Ohio to Bush – how could anyone not expect another bout of chicanery. Yet, most of the populace went blithely on, either too ignorant or apathetic to consider what was happening.

If we continue to allow the same person to be State Party Chair, and hold state office as Secretary of State, like Ken Blackwell infamously did in Ohio, again, I ask, how can we not see the inevitability of cheating? It is insanity to have one partisan man also be the person in charge of voting records.

When the few of us who did speak up against this travesty complained about the stealing of Ohio two years ago, we were laughed at or shouted down, accused of “sour grapes” mentality, and so on. And sadly, Sen. Kerry himself did not even fight the recount as Al Gore had at least done before him. (I do not blame him overmuch, however, as the judges he would have had to rely on in Ohio would likely have ruled against him, anyway.) Only Rep. Conyers, an upstanding man of great merit, had the courage to try. And he was supported by our own brave Rep. Hinchey, I must add.

Now, when it is far too late, and so much has been destroyed by the evil administration we allowed to return, a few more voices are being heard in the usually wishy-washy media. Robert Kennedy and others have pointed out what was obvious to some of us in 2000 and 2004. But it still may happen again! Will the majority of citizens stand by, mute once more, in 2006 and 2008? It is not just a matter of party loyalty, for there are good people in both parties. But the voting has been cheated on and will be every time people don’t have the guts to stop it. I fear that too few of us have that nerve.

Eileen Fay

Kennedy’s article didn’t even touch the gapping security hole in Diebold eVoting machines.

The State of Nevada gaming commission requires that software used on slot machines be published and cannot be manipulated through the introduction of external media.

In contrast, the proprietary software in Diebold eVoting machines was actually designed to look for and act on instructions coded onto a memory card inserted into the machines.

IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT DIEBOLD EVOTING MACHINES CAN BE MADE TO EXECUTE ROGUE INSTRUCTIONS THAT CHANGE VOTE TOTALS WITHOUT A TRACE MERELY BY INSERTING A MEMORY CARD INTO AN EASILY ACCESSABLE PART OF THE MACHINE FOR ONLY A FEW SECONDS.

Incredibly, Diebold contends that this gapping security flaw is not a threat to democracy because anyone who attempted to exploit this vulnerability would be committing a felony.

In a White House that treasonously outted a CIA agent just to warn others against exposing their lies for war, THEY DO FELONIES FOR LUNCH!

Exactly what drug is jr. on?

Grandpa delivered Illinos with the Mob vote for JFK ….

Time for jr. to check into Mayo with his cus ……..

Oh BOOO-HOOO!

Bush “stole” the election!

You crybabies need to take off your tinfoil hats and get a friggin life!

What happens when you are a heroin junkie, with a father who worked for Joseph McCarthy, and an uncle who really stole an election? You get moonbat Jan Wenner to spew your conspiracy theories!

Hey,

It looks like Quit Crying has quit crying.

Knock on wood…

- Tom

The most suprising thing about this article is the timing, where the hell was this a year and a half ago when people actually cared. I was already familiar with the majority of the cases Mr. Kennedy cites a month after doomsday. Of course there has been some additional findings to sweeten the pot, but the foundation for the case of fraud was right there while the wounds from the election were still fresh. While I commend Rolling Stone for being the first mainstream publication to tackle this issue, some good old investigative journalism could have gone a lot farther, and likely uncovered more evidence before it had a chance to be cleansed. I think the disparity in exit polls vs. (so-called) actual count was more than enough for a cover story in Dec.04. If you consider our government was using the same rationale to question the results of the Ukraine election AT THE SAME TIME, this story could have been the sprark to ignite public support for a full investigation. All I can hope is the something is done to change the system that either legally allows for misconduct, or does nothing to prosecute it. Clearly the law is being broken in elections (by both sides), and as long as it continues it’s becoming less and less motivating to want to be a part of the process. Playing in a fixed game is a waste of time, and voting is quickly becoming the same. Count me out on the next one unless something changes. What’s the point?

Thank you, Mr. Kennedy, for your bravery in writing this article. And thank you, Rolling Stone, for publishing it. Let’s hope that this rolling stone has enough momentum to reach what needs to be crushed under its weighty truth.
And the citizenry needs to brace for the violent revolution that the USA may be on the brink of.
And as for fundamental Christians out there, why have none of you requated the Bush corporatacracy with the Beast of Revelations?

This sort of bickering has been going on, and getting worse, for decades.

I think the very presence of the two parties provides for a fallback for people, something to distract them from the unfolding deterioration of our social and political systems, and in the opposing party, someone to blame.

It doesn’t matter which party you’ve pledged your allegiance to, when your party is in power, the others are complaining, and when your party is not in power, the others are now fascists.

Maybe the common thread here is that our country has evolved into a fascist national-security state, and we need to address THAT, not which party is right or wrong, good or bad or anything like that. They’re all bad. They’re all corrupt and the whole system is the root cause of millions in job losses at the same time that the same number of illegal immigrants are allowed into this country.

I guess as long as the core of the republican support base, some 15 to 25% of the nation, remains unaffected, nothing will change. Until they become victims themselves, they will never realize what is truly going on in this country.

It’s true that they say a republican is just a liberal who has been mugged by reality. But then once that same person gets mugged AGAIN by reality, they no longer trust EITHER party.

Just wait.

>>RichClem attacks a Kennedy for being a Democrat, as if that changes any of the facts in his article.>This is the kind of “attack the messenger” sophistry neoCon fascists resort to when confronted with inconvenient truths.>If RichClam is a real Patriot and not a partisan paid shill for the neoCon fascists…>I would refer hi to the non-partisan site that identifies the massive problem of eVoting fraud:

Watch the skies on tuesday.

Just look up.

Trust me.

The election day results did agree with the Major preelection day polls except for Zogby’s preelection poll.Why would we believe that all the other polls were wrong and the election night results were wrong because of massive nationwide fraud and only Zogby was right.

Zogby’s on-line polling was flawed and the exit polls were skewed by too many women interviews and too few men.

Rasmussen had the election result right on. Was he in on the massive conspiracy and was tipped off as to the amount of fraud to occur and thus correct his polling results. I doubt it.

Yes it is true. John Kerry only lost by a mere 3 million votes. Yep 3 million. We can all concoct vote fraud theories – yours is a real humdinger.

Lets eliminate vote fraud all together. One national ID card. Proof of identity required at the voting booth. Oh I forgot, that would drastically penalize the bused in fraudulent, no identity proof required part of the D vote which your party is so heavily reliant on. Conclusion: Vote Fraud is just fine as long as it benefits the Democratic party….but if we lose, even by 3 million votes nationally and 120 thousand in Ohio…..it just simply has to be vote fraud. How on earth else could people actually not vote for for whinny, concubine, anti-american, phoney baloney stuffed shirt like Kerry. Get a real candidate and you might be able to overcome the lousy economic policies of the left and actually win fair and square.

What is anyone DOING about any of this? They don’t much care what people say, in case you didn’t know. Anyway, don’t think Kerry would have been any different. He might be a more intelligent liar, or maybe not, but he is Bush’s cousin, and they were both Skull & Bones at Yale.

Get off the old party system!

Until people recognize that both parties conduct themselves in a manner that does not serve the people, there will be bickering and squabbling on the lower levels of politics, while on the higher level of politics, the robber barons and corrupt officials in both parties will continue to act the way they do.

No matter who is in power, they always pander to certain of the same groups, generally the top 5% income earners. That’s why someone might defend bush at the moment — these parties know that without their support, the rest of the country would be able to exercise its political will.

It’s exciting to watch, this great transformation we’re undergoing. Eventually, this country will be exactly like Brazil, or Sudan — a small class of privilege and abject poverty for everyone else. No middle class, per se. No real equality or equity. Just serve that core 5%, let them take 95% of the wealth, and let everyone else suffer. You can always say that since it’s a democracy, that majority must have chosen to be subjugated, right? Just rationalize that as long as you are comfortable the system must be working, and don’t think about the poverty and ignorance that was built into the system.

Quit Crying is probably one of those pot-bellied 50-somethings driving around in an SUV, talking on his cellphone, in the left lane, going 5 mph under the speed limit, holding up traffic.

And while he considers himself a law-abiding citizen, it would probably come as a surprise to him that the law forbids driving in the left lane when another, overtaking car wishes to pass. He probably has no understanding of the “Left lane is a passing and turning lane” laws in all 50 states.

This guy’s one of those dolts that has his opinions, and facts cannot change those opinions.

Even if I were to shove the law from his state about the left lane into his face, he’d probably say “but everybody does it” as his defense for violating that traffic law, and he would refuse to adjust his driving habits to always return to the right lane after passing. He probably likes to drive right next to another car, too. Or, I bet, he speeds up whenever someone tries to pass him, because his ego is bruised by someone wanting to go faster than him.

We call these people “Road zombies”.

oh my. election fraud. this, written by someone who should certainly know a thing or two or three about the subject, if he paid any attention to his old man or his uncle. the 1960 election that put his uncle in the white house was CERTAINLY stolen, and not very subtly either. if it weren’t for that event, nobody would know or care who RFK jr is. but do the R’s continue to moan about that? no, quite honestly, that was a watershed event, that led directly to RWR winning in 1980 and launched the conservative revolution we’re in today. you can continue to whine about it, and do nothing (since you don’t have any ideas or policies, this is probably what you’ll do), or you can develop some sound ideas beyond “We Hate Bush!!!”, and actually compete in future elections.

How ironic to read this article written by a man whose father wiretapped Martin Luther King, Jr., whose grandfather was a known anti-Semite and was pro-Hitler, whose uncle stole votes and a Presidential election in Illinois, whose cousin slept with his 14-year old babysitter, whose cousin paralyzed a teenage girl because of his drinking, whose cousin raped a girl and got away with it, whose cousin rammed a police barricade and wasn’t even tested for alcohol, and whose uncle drowned a girl after drinking and waited to consult his lawyers/advisors for over ten hours before reporting it to the police. Hmmmm, have I missed anything??

Although one could be gascinated by the interesting excuses for Kerry defeat in the election, the article fails to prove an important fact, that the,” un-counted votes”, were all geared towards democratic voters. This speculation also losses credibility when it predicts that Kerry would have won by a landslide OF 1600 VOTES!!!! No matter which candidate you sided with, it is undeniable that a debatable report such as this one, would have been more believeable if the numbers proved that Kerry had won by say 50,000 or 100,000. This would provide for le-way on predicted numbers based on percentages from Clevelands turnout.
This leads to another interesting flaw in the article. The article arives at the predictions using clevland stats, despite the fact that Cleveland, according to different censuses has at most 590,000 inhabitants, about 10% of Ohio residents. This further proves that a prediction of a Kerry 1,600 vote victory is for very weak. Judging Ohio based on Cleveland is similar to judging the opinion of the US on the Northeastern states and not other populated states such as Texas and Florida.
Finally the report that Kerry was predicted to win 309 to 174 is a lie NBC could not even come up with. This prediction automatically gave Kerry toss-up states such as very valuable Florida, which of course Bush won.

If Rolling Stone feels the elction was stolen they could hae produced a more plausible outcome, not the one conjured up.

Why is it that every time a measure to make voting easier and elections honest only one party opposses it?As for “PROVE IT”. Hey genius, there is no reason to lie on an exit poll.Kerry and Gore in Florida both won because MORE PEOPLE VOTED FOR THEM and said so! Have there been any accusations of fraud in Republican areas? Doesn’t it seem funny? If they had to wait 11 hours martial law would have been declared and the polls would remained open until every one who wanted to vote for Bush could have.From tapping your phone to denying your right to vote “BIG GOP BOTHER” is watching.

Quite a few people here have asked, what are we going to do about “it?” with regard to the illegal and (check the definition) subversive activities of the Republican Party during the 2004 elections. I have a proposal.

One body of 100 U.S. citizens consisting of residents of all fifty states, and one body of 100 Ohioian U.S. citizens should silmultaneously perform citizens arrests of senior GOP officials and staffers in Washington and Ohio on charges of comspiracy to violate the Voters Rights Act and violations of the federal RICO act(Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act of 1970). Such an action will force a federal judicial proceeding and could ultimately void the election and resuolt in the imprisonment of GOP big wigs. Yes, everyone involved could wind up being sued or worse, but doesn’t patriotism require that if we honestly believe the foundations of our republic are under attack?

Prove it | 6/3/2006, 7:12 pm EST

Although one could be gascinated by the interesting excuses for Kerry defeat in the election, the article fails to prove an important fact, that the,” un-counted votes”, were all geared towards democratic voters. This speculation also losses credibility when it predicts that Kerry would have won by a landslide OF 1600 VOTES!!!! No matter which candidate you sided with, it is undeniable that a debatable report such as this one, would have been more believeable if the numbers proved that Kerry had won by say 50,000 or 100,000. This would provide for le-way on predicted numbers based on percentages from Clevelands turnout.

——————

So you’re saying that since you can’t believe that 1600 votes is enough to prove that kerry might have won, proves that there were no improprieties in the election?

Okay, so you can safely go back to watching american idol now. Everything’s fine, nothing’s wrong, no need to worry.

WHEW, what a relief.

(it’s called rationalization, look it up)

for larry to make personal attacks against mr. kennedy is not only rotten it makes me ashamed to be a member of the human race. larry ~ i pray for your enlightenment, wake up! i can’t help but feel pity for the small minded ways of people as blindly patriotic as larry. whatever mr. kennedy’s relatives were or were not guilty of is neither here nor there. i applaud and thank mr. kennedy for his willingness to uphold our right to vote and have it counted as cast. republicans can only win through sleezy, dishonest practices.

Larry | 6/3/2006, 6:37 pm EST

How ironic to read this article written by a man whose father wiretapped Martin Luther King, Jr., whose grandfather was a known anti-Semite and was pro-Hitler, whose uncle stole votes and a Presidential election in Illinois, whose cousin slept with his 14-year old babysitter, whose cousin paralyzed a teenage girl because of his drinking, whose cousin raped a girl and got away with it, whose cousin rammed a police barricade and wasn’t even tested for alcohol, and whose uncle drowned a girl after drinking and waited to consult his lawyers/advisors for over ten hours before reporting it to the police. Hmmmm, have I missed anything??
———————

Wow, you’re a real messenger sniper, ain’t you?

So what you’re saying is that two wrongs makes a right. If the republicans did something wrong, and if the democrats also did something wrong, then all is well.

Is american idol on right now? I think the TV has addled your brain.

It matters not one bit that the democrats stole the 1960 election. BOTH PARTIES ARE ROTTEN!

If you recognize that the democrats have betrayed america, and you see that others recognize that the republicans have also betrayed america, if you were a true patriot, you wouldn’t defend EITHER.

Let’s see, it’s been a couple of days worth of posts here and the number of Bush supporters that indicate support for ending the disenfranchisement of voters and insuring that voting is done on recountable paper ballots that would leave absolutely no doubt about the legitmacy of their candidate is exactly ZERO.

Why do they go on attack rather than admit a problem that needs fixing? Because they know that Bush has never been legitimately elected President of the United States.

Never.

So, o.k. Bush won. Good. I have no children so I don’t give a rat’s ass. All you suckers who don’t mind the idea of a third world police state can keep this dump. I, for one, am outta here.

You won. Keep your rotting carcass of a country. My home is mortgaged to the hilt by a fixed mortgage so I can pay it back with worthless dollars later. If I choose to. I’ve put my assets in Euro’s, gold and other commodities that actually have real value and I’ve made more money, (real money), than I ever dreamt of by betting against this sinking scow. Thanks to your chimp leaders’s economic policies, there’s good coin to be made selling the US short. And I paid less taxes on this easy money than If I’d made it working. Ain’t republicanism grand.
Now I’ll sit back and watch all the suckers that defend the organized criminals in the WH slowly lose their standard of living. I’ll watch their kids get killed in a series of ridiculous wars so someone else can get rich. Namely me. The more the dollar slides, the more I make. So spend away. More billions for defense, I say. HA, HA, Suckers.

I can’t wait for the meltdown. I hear Chavez is going to accept Euros for oil. GREAT. You patsies and your boy king have made me far more money than I’d ever make working. Fortunately, I am now in a positon to live like a king in another country that makes no phony claims of being the biggest, baddest, smartest, greatest. But it will be a far sight better than the hellhole this cadaver that used to be America will be when I split. On the flip side, I’ll be subject to the U.S.’s belligerent foreign policy. Oh, well, see you in the war zone.

So congratulations, bushbots. I will watch in amusement the cons giving you the screwing you worked so hard to get. Maybe I’ll buy your houses when your 1% ARM becomes 18% and you get forclosed on. Don’t worry, I’ll rent it back to you. But since you’ll be paying in relatively worthless dollars, it’s gonna cost you. You don’t mind an overseas landlord, do you? Again, my taxes on the profit I make being your landlord will be lower than yours. Thanks Bushbots.

Maybe I’ll come back for the revolution. Maybe not. Any country full of people who haven’t by now taken to the streets and pulled the idiot king out by his hair and beat his ass in the street may not be worth saving.

You made your bed. Lie in it. Thank god I never had kids, that’s all I can say. Tough shit about yours.

What to do? – you speak wise words and I’ve seen the car stickers ‘Don’t like America? – then leave!’

The problem is, where to go. The only people with a legitimate ‘out’ are the millions of immigrants that so many American’s seem to hate so much. Methinks the issues need to be fixed from within along the lines of:

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out – because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out – because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out – because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me – and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Pastor Niemoeller (victim of the Nazis)

Americans need to start by speaking out for themselves because current government has done so much to alienate America from the rest of the world.

hey getinthehellout,

I wish I could get my money out of this country. A lot of mine is all tied up in trust funds and the rest are tied up in retail businesses that I can’t just up and move to another country. Taco Bells are probably popular elsewhere, but I’d have to sell the dozen I have, and then buy another dozen or so in some other country to get the money out of America.

I’ve just planned on walking away from it all, just like the jews did in the late 1930’s in Germany. Just abandon my wealth and start over. I mean, I’ll take what I can, but I don’t expect much value by the time I’m ready to duck out.

The way I see it, even though I voted republican in every election since I turned 18 up until the 2000 election when I last voted republican, all my efforts at spreading the truth online could not have gone unnoticed. Even having personal and family relationships with a Republican Congressman, a former director of the office of national drug control
policy and many many other high level officials, I’m probably on a list somewhere. I like to believe I’m not on the first list, probably the third or fourth list.

You know, like a german poet wrote, after world war II — “When they came for the gypsies, I said nothing. When they came for the infirm, I said nothing. When they came for the jews, I said nothing. When they finally came for me, there was nobody left to say anything.”

I’m saying something, and I’m not going to be this poet.

holy shit, that is just too damn spooky felicity…. we both posted the same thing. As soon as I hit post and scrolled down, you posted the same poem.

Damn. “synchronicity”

McLamb, I didn’t expect my earlier comment to spark a debate, but I did hope that someone would tell me what gives them pride in America.

However, no-one did, neither Republican NOR Democrat.

Very sad, I think.

What to do? – Spooky indeed

Getinthellout – You sound SO American! Unless, of course, your tongue was firmly in your cheek.

monaco, venezuela, lots of south american countries will accept foriegners, usually immediately giving citizenship, when you invest a certain amount of money in their country. Monaco is simple, if you invest $50,000 in a business in monaco, you can become a citizen. At least, it was $50,000 the last time I checked, it may have inflated by now.

I’m not leaving until I feel like it’s the “last minute”. I’m a little afraid that I might miscalculate that time and find myself in some camp in the deserts of arizona or something, but I’m willing to take that chance because I want my country back. But, like I said, I’m not going to risk everything for people that keep attacking me for trying to help them. I can do fine in any country, I get along with just about every race of man (I grew up in Hawaii, where “multiculturalism” isn’t an agenda, it’s just a reality you have to accept) Actually, I get along better with immigrants than I do with pigheaded SUV driving dolts with food stains on their shirts and cellphones plastered to their ears. I have nothing in common with idiots, so I cannot relate to them.

What to do?, Like most things in life, then, it’s ok if you’ve got money. Not a personal attack, just a fact of life. My point still stands – there will still be plenty of people who might want an ‘out’ but have nowhere to go.

damn gettinthehellout you’re way ahead of me.

If you find the right place, let me know.

As for most of south america, I just figured bush sr. spoiled all those with his death squads and special forces teams and CIA agents who infiltrated the government and industry to undermine democracy and test the waters of creating this neo-feudalism.

Hopefully some of them have shaken off the yokes.

Felicity, I hear you. That’s why I haven’t dipped out the moment I realized this was going on. I really do believe in “America”, at least the concept they sold us, and I would love to get everyone to realize what’s going on and change the course we’re on. I’m struggling and doing what I can. I will not take up arms, I will not suggest anyone take up arms, and I will not support anyone that takes up arms. I believe in the democratic system and if I can help to bring it back, so help me I will.

But at the same time, everyone needs to fend for themselves, too. Poor, uneducated mexicans and south americans do this all the time. If you have to sneak across the border to canada, at least that’s an option (though I hear they’re pretty much in lockstep up there)

What to do? – $40,000 contributed to a reforestation program will get you immediate permanent resident status in Ecuador (Im not 100% sure it’s Ecuador, maybe Argentia). After 5 years you will become eligible for citizenship.

In Nicaragua, tourism related businesses receive tax exemption for 10 years and duties are waived for importing anything your business uses plus all your household items including a boat and car. Beachfront homes in developed areas of expats are going ridiculously cheap. Like Costa Rica 20 years ago, or California 100 years ago.

Sell the Taco Bells. Or mortgage them to the hilt with shrinking dollars. Convert the $$ to Euros and invest in overseas real estate and/or businesses. Then when the shit hits the fan, you’ll need only grab a suitcase and a one-way ticket.
Also buy precious metals and other portable forms of wealth. If you wait too long, your Taco Bells won’t be worth crap. Rich people don’t eat there and the poor won’t be able to afford it much anymore. Although it IS cheap. That bean paste must cost about $0.03/gallon.

gettinthehellout,

have you read “The Pentagon’s New Map”?

It kind of spoils the idea that there’s a safe place on this planet to go. Basically, if you take a map of the planet, and darken all the “developing” countries, there’s going to be a virtual “wall” of military conflict along the border of the shaded areas. This world is being divided into the “privileged haves” and “privileged have nots,” and the “unprivileged” rest.

The book is NOT fiction. It’s written by a former planner at the pentagon, someone who worked on the “map”.

labor is the biggest cost I think. I just own them, in a portfolio, I don’t really know what goes on inside any of them.

But yes, gold is probably the way to go. Obviously lots of people know what’s going on, the price has almost doubled in the last 3 or 4 years. There’s apparently a run on gold these days… hmmm… hey republican bushbots, why would there be a run on gold if everything’s going so well? The super rich who aren’t in on the scam are leaving the ship!

Thanks for the advice guys, but I already have an out if I want one that doesn’t rely on money. I’m one of the really lucky ones. Like I said earlier, jumped into this conversation because, in the face of the current debate, I was curious to know what made Americans proud to be American.

So far, no-one neither Republican nor Democrat has responded to that question.

what are the odds of them invading panama again? DOH! I forgot about Iraq.

But yes, you’ve got some very good information there. Obviously you are way ahead of me in the game. I’ve just gotten past the idea of having to leave eventually, but haven’t given that much thought to where and how just yet.

I’m still hoping it will never come to that.

But if I do, I think I’m just going to cancel the insurance on my properties (including my portfolio properties) and just torch them. Screw them, I’m not going to leave running concerns for the party favorites to take over. I’ve been in the large mansions of Hamburg that were taken from jews and given to party favorites. I know how that works. I’m not going to leave anything of value behind to be given as a war trophy to some corrupt official. I spent money on them, some of it I earned with my own two hands, and some of it my forebears earned with their sweat and toil. Corruption should never be rewarded, only punished.

BTW, General Barry McAffrey, former director of ONDCP says they DID massacre civilians in Haditha. I trust him, I’ve met him, he’s a West Point classmate of my father’s, and he has no reason to lie to my father. (he just got back from a class picnic at another classmate’s house, I just found this out so I needed to post it somewhere as soon as I got off the phone with my father.)

I have a Honduran friend. And a few friends from El Salvador. But they left those places because of the american death squads. I guess those places are out.

Do we still have bases in Panama, or have the Chinese pretty much taken that over by now?

I still like Monaco. But I guess you’re just in a protectorate of France which pretty much puts you right under the thumb of the globalists. Switzerland has always intrigued me. They’re dirty and nasty bankers, but because they’re dirty and nasty bankers they always seem to manage to stay out of the fray. I realize they get demonized occassionaly for banking for the Nazis, but come on, our president’s grandfather laundered money for the nazis, too.

If they weren’t more interested in keeping the war in Iraq going, and eventually pacify that place, at least you’d know they’ve moved on and will leave it alone for another 2 or 3 decades. But I guess we have no idea how they’ll structure that government, if it will be a model of the new america they plan on instituting here.

oh yeah, as far as “The Pentagon’s New Map”, yes, take it seriously. Not for the end result, but for what they plan on doing. I’m sure it won’t succeed, but the plan is definitely to knock down all governments along the border between the developing and developed worlds, and create a constant state of war there. We need a frontier to send our children off to get killed, after all. (which makes me wonder how long it will be before in order to be a citizen, you’ll have to enlist and fight in a war for 2 years. I know that day is coming, and I’m not just talking about immigrants. At 18, you’ll have the option of being a citizen or a serf. Fight and become a citizen, or don’t and all you can do is serve the elite in some menial job, those will be your only choices.)

Felicity, I’ll try to answer that question of what makes one proud to be an american.

Keep in mind, this is old-school. Most of my reasons no longer exist.

But, here goes:

I’m proud to be an american because America defeated the nazis and then spent hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars rebuilding europe. I’m proud of America for the fact that anyone can start with nothing and build a life that is absent from need. I’m proud of america for writing it’s constitution and embarking on the great democratic expirement.

Now, again, this was why I WAS proud. Most of that is no longer valid anyway. Except for the opportunity, there still is opportunity here, albeit dwindling and more and more it’s reserved for the selected few. And the defeating the nazis, well I’m starting to think maybe that was just a staged event, just like the cold war was staged, an agreement between FDR, Churchill and Stalin, to maintain a stranglehold on the world and help create the mess we find ourselves in now. Prescott Bush and even Henry Ford were very big supporters of the Nazis. It’s almost as if the whole thing was a deflection, while they defeat the fascists, they build a fascist state right here at home, you know? I mean, you can’t deny that America is more fascist now than it was at the turn of the last century.

Tags and labels, labels and tags..all just Words..falling on deaf ears, haven’t you noticed that yet?
Too late for Words, my friends..we need Action.

LOL! 2000-2004…if ‘Hackers’ had hijacked either election bush would Not have won, that is a given.

As for Poppy bush, Aye..he too walked away with what was not his. This IS a family dynasty and will remain so until We The People physically ring the phones off the hooks at Congress And take to the Streets EnMass Demanding, not asking, for Immediate change.
What we Should have done Years ago..
Just think of the misery we could have saved the whole world!

And yes, i Can say this because i have been Active for Decades, not just whining about it. If More people would rise up and Demand their rights we just might get em back. But Never, if we don’t.

NJB

Okay, I’m getting philosophical here, but reading the comments about south american countries getting away from IMF control and starting to go their own way made me think.

We’ll be losing out on a lot if the neocons succeed in creating a global government. No system is ever perfect, this is just a fact because these systems are created by fallible humans. Humans are not perfect, therefore they cannot create perfection. Plain and simple. Therefore, having lots of different ideas being implemented in lots of different countries prevents the monopoly-affect, where one idea is tantamount, even though it is flawed.

In other words, we’re about to lock ourselves into a flawed system, and elimnate all other flawed systems.

Wouldn’t it be better to perfect the system before we decide arbitrarily that we’re going to go with the one that seems to work only a little better than the others?

What to Do???,

You’re right, but you’re also wrong. Haven’t you noticed how, even back in 1998 and 1999, they infiltrated the anti-globalist movement, and created two very messy protests to get mainstreamers to view any protester as “just another malcontent”?

I sat on the rooftop balcony of a building overlooking the World Bank here in DC in 1999 during the IMF/World Bank meetings. I was talking to the two FBI agents who were using a telephoto lense from the roof next door to photograph each and every protestor present. I also watched as two wheeled armored vehicles with 9 shock-troops hanging on each side of the vehicle rolled up, launched about 2 dozen canisters of tear gas and then proceeded to go melee on the peacefully assembled protestors. I even got a little irritated by the tear gas. I also watched another string of plastic sheilded police come out from a side street and join the fray.

At the time, I thought it was funny. I really bought into the whole system and even though it bothered me a bit, I just went along and thought it was amusing. I even remember telling the FBI agent who wasn’t operating the telephoto camera that I thought it was stupid to protest corporations while using a cell phone and drinking starbucks coffee. I just didn’t get it at the time, I’ll be the first to admit.

Organized protesting has been compromised. I walk along H st. every day on my way to my office, I see the secret service, park service and park police and several other agencies come out and fence off either half of lafayette park, or fence the entire thing off right before a protest is about to occur, ALL THE TIME. At least 3 times a week, they fence off a portion of the park. Some times they let the protestors get a small area of the park, other times they crowd them out and don’t let them near the park or the white house.

There needs to be a new way to get the message across.

Unfortunately, I can’t think of any new ways.

I think I should add, they did NOTHING when the Iranian-americans marched down H street the WRONG WAY, and entered Lafayette park, NOR DID THEY DO ANYTHING when the lation’s marched down 16th street into Lafayette park.

I realized immediately that these were politically correct protests, protests that obviously further administration goals.

Like any good propaganda minister will do, everything is controlled.

lations should have been latinos.

Right after 9/11, when everyone wanted to fly their flags all day and night for weeks, there were widespread reports of flags being stolen from homes. As one local resident asked, “How patriotic is it to fly a stolen flag?” The 2000 and 2004 elections remind me of that comment. How good is it for the country to be run by government that the majority voted against? Every day, we, the voters, see the wisdom of our votes in both those elections. It’s no wonder the GOP had to steal the elections. Is this the country they want us to live in?

Here’s the 1964 joke updated: The GOP told us in 2000 that if we voted for Al Gore, we’d get lies, deception, misguided foreign policy and a mismanaged economy. Well, I voted for Al Gore, and they were right.

oh, about that voter ID thing. Don’t ever fall for that.

England, USA and Australia are all trying to get some form of a national ID going. They’re rabidly doing everything they can to get that shit implemented.

“May I see your paperzz pleeezz”

Don’t ever fall for any type of a central database and identification. Just because IBM helped build the same thing in Germany, and even installed early tallying computers in Auschwitz.

They need to know where you are in order to come and get you. Yes, that sounds paranoid, but just imagine what it must be like to call your neighbor a fool for warning about that, and then running into him when you get to the concentration camp, and he asks “so, am I a fool now?”

Phil | 6/4/2006, 1:01 am EST

Right after 9/11, when everyone wanted to fly their flags all day and night for weeks, there were widespread reports of flags being stolen from homes. As one local resident asked, “How patriotic is it to fly a stolen flag?” The 2000 and 2004 elections remind me of that comment. How good is it for the country to be run by government that the majority voted against? Every day, we, the voters, see the wisdom of our votes in both those elections. It’s no wonder the GOP had to steal the elections. Is this the country they want us to live in?
—————-

YES.

They feel that they have a right to dictate your behaviors, actions and morals.

Look up Margaret Sanger, Prescott Bush. Eugenics, man, Eugenics.

They could care less about you, you are just a statistic to them, one that can be managed with chemicals and laws and wars.

Accept it, like “quit crying”, or work to change it.

McLamb, you hit the nail on the head with that post. That’s the America I knew.

What to do? – When was that pentagon book written. This whole quagmire in the ME may have thrown a monkey wrench in their plans. That and their alienation of our allies who must have figured in their scheme.

And Don’t discount Honduras, or even Guatemala. These are low interest countries of no further strategic or economic use to the US since the fall of the Soviet Union. And now they are rejecting neoliberalism and globalism with a spirit and vigor that I only wish Americans had. They are embarking on a political renassiance of sorts yet a lot of them are more politically and economically stable than they’ve been any time in the last 40 years.

Also, with Venezuela in the lead, many of these Latin American countries are in the process of creating a federation of sorts, modeled on the European Union. If you have legal status in one, you will be able to travel and do business in any of them without any legalities to deal with. That alone is worth the price of admission.

The thing about American politics that amazes me is that the right is up in arms about “morals”, and yet the right seems to have some moral failings all their own:
1) Corporate malfesance, which is a big word for big business ripping off the rest of us.
2) The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. While abortion might or might not be murder (reasonable people could disagree), fighting a war of aggression or a war based on false pretexts strikes me as murder.
3) I am unaware of any moral code that allows the use of torture. Although the catholic church used it during the inquistion.
4) South Dakota recently legislated that there shall be no abortions at all in that state, because they are interested in the right to life. However, South Dakota has the 35th worse infant mortality rate in the country. It seems to me that if they were serious about “right to life”, then they would Do Something about their high infant mortality rate first – that seems a lot less controversial.
5) There are a lot of policies and laws in this country that screw the poor. It’s expensive to be poor. If the right was really interested in “morality” as I understand morality, they would make a conscious effort to change these policies. Classic example: suppose the fine for going 65 MPH in a 60 MPH zone is $100. Real Networks pays me fairly well so that’s about 4 hours of work for me – it will sting but not hurt me too much. However, suppose some poor shmuck is making $8/hour – we’re now talking a day and a half of labor. The right will argue that the poor should be more careful – but isn’t that just sanctioning the wealthy getting away with something?

I’m listening for some outrage on the right.

Yes, democrats, please run on this issue. Oh yeah, and run on impeachment too. Keep showing your true liberal colors.

Thank you What To Do and McLamb. It seems like there’s not a lot to be proud of these days. You hit the nail on the head too, Jeff.

However, all is not lost. Civilizations come and civilizations go. It’s just our bad luck to be on the ‘go’ end of things. Things will get better, just perhaps not in my lifetime.

By the way, I don’t mean to be rude, but America didn’t defeat the Nazis all alone and while America did put a lot of money into rebuilding, the main reason why Germany and Japan became so economically sound after WW11 is that they were forbidden to put any money into arms and spent it instead on rebuilding their economies. Very little American money, if any, found its way to Britain, large areas of which were flattened by the German bombs. But I digress.

Jeff Silverman | 6/4/2006, 2:01 am EST

The thing about American politics that amazes me is that the right is up in arms about “morals”, and yet the right seems to have some moral failings all their own:
1) Corporate malfesance, which is a big word for big business ripping off the rest of us.
——–

Yep. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. I guess in the republican mindset, since this is the cliche, then it must be okay, and just go ahead and further it.

2) The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. While abortion might or might not be murder (reasonable people could disagree), fighting a war of aggression or a war based on false pretexts strikes me as murder.
——————–

Yep again. it ain’t murder if it’s on a grand scale. When you kill a person, you’re a murderer, but when you sign a legal document ordering murder, it’s legal because some idiots voted for you. It’s all good. It’s called “mob rule”. I hate the mob.

3) I am unaware of any moral code that allows the use of torture. Although the catholic church used it during the inquistion.
———————–

I’m a catholic. I believe even the catholic church is just another institution that needs to be brought down. This was actually taught to me by actual priests. This is something nobody really looks at, but the church is just another establishment. Basically, all establishments are suspect, and need to be examined for their ongoing validity.

4) South Dakota recently legislated that there shall be no abortions at all in that state, because they are interested in the right to life. However, South Dakota has the 35th worse infant mortality rate in the country. It seems to me that if they were serious about “right to life”, then they would Do Something about their high infant mortality rate first – that seems a lot less controversial.
————————-

again, I never looked at it this way, but you’re right. If we have one problem, we need to address it before we start legislating against correlating problems. It makes no sense to spend money or time telling people they can’t kill off undesirable babies before we figure out how to keep the ones that made it to birth alive. I’m not completely for abortion, but I can’t say its wrong while 4 month old babies are dying from malnutrition or neglect. I wish there wouldn’t be a need for abortions, but at the same time, I can’t dictate other people’s morals.

5) There are a lot of policies and laws in this country that screw the poor. It’s expensive to be poor. If the right was really interested in “morality” as I understand morality, they would make a conscious effort to change these policies. Classic example: suppose the fine for going 65 MPH in a 60 MPH zone is $100. Real Networks pays me fairly well so that’s about 4 hours of work for me – it will sting but not hurt me too much. However, suppose some poor shmuck is making $8/hour – we’re now talking a day and a half of labor. The right will argue that the poor should be more careful – but isn’t that just sanctioning the wealthy getting away with something?
——————

No shit. I went to high school with a guy that is now a park police officer. He tells me all the time how the “shitheads” from Potomac Md act when he pulls them over for doing 95 in a 55 on the Clara Barton parkway. They invariably say “How much is this going to cost me?” They don’t care. It’s just a night out at an expensive restaurant to them. (to me too, but I’m not blind to the rest of the world like they are)

I’m listening for some outrage on the right.
——————–

I am from the right. I’m about as right as you can get. I live in Mclean, My father was a career army officer, I’ve worked for and still work with conservative publications and newspapers. I am a product of the right.

AND I AM ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGED! No shit. I live in the midst of the most blind and ignorant of the right. I know how they think, I see them in action every day. They’re very narrow minded and are completely wrapped up in rationalizations and denial.

It is OUTRAGEOUS. NO FUCKING ARGUMENT. THEY SUCK! THEY FUCKING SUCK! I CAN’T HIT THESE KEYS HARD ENOUGH TO MAKE MY WORDS MEAN MORE, THEY SUCK!

Sounds to me like Bobby has been hitting his granddaddys moonshine again!

My granddaddy is dead, and how did you know my name was bobby?

Oh shit, I better pull the plug fast, I guess I live too close to the CIA headquarters to be doing this sort of thing, huh?

Will you guys be pulling up in front of my townhouse soon? Let me know, I’ll be waiting.

I’ve pulled the shades, and I’m peaking out, but I don’t see you guys yet. Are you coming?

Our country has raised a whole generation of not letting losing for little johnny or mary . That’s one reason they’re throwing hissy fits over being beaten in two election. Can’t use red pens in schools- hurt their precious feelings, not keeping scores in soccer games- hurt their little feeling. After these games- they have their drink list – all serve kool aid- and they’re still drinking it!

If you thought 2000 and 2004 was stolen, just wait until ‘06 and ‘08 – think they can’t cheat with poll numbers this low? Think again….

Is RFK Jr. the Kennedy who sleeps with underage baby sitters or the the one who raped the girl at the Florida compound. I have a hard time keeping the Kennedy’s straight … they’re all so credible.

ProudAmerican – What is it you’re so proud of? The substandard school that couldn’t manage to teach you how to write a coherent paragraph? Or, is it the fact you can be a half literate bumpkin and still be a successfull troll?

I forget – The reason you forget is that you are stupid. If you weren’t you’d know that RFKJR didn’t pull this stuff out of his ass. Have someone read the source material to you. Also, have someone read you the disposition of the cases involving his cousins.
But, no, you’re just a shitty little troll who can’t keep things straight in your mind because you’ve never learned anything for yourself. I know, It’s hard to keep your facts straight when all you can do is parrot someone elses opinions.
So, go back and listen to Rush some more. In a little while, he’ll pull anothe nugget of shit out of his ass and feed it to you. Then you can go find another board to troll on. Just don’t hang around long enough that someone asks you to back anything up. Rush serves his shit nuggets with no background, so a detail challenged simpleton like you would find it far too frustrating.
But if you want to hold RFKJR accountable for transgressions of extended family members, perhaps we can discuss Dear Leaders criminal brothers, or his wife who murdered her boyfried in a drunken car crash, or his own criminal cocaine use, or his illegal stock trading, or his tax evasion for failing to report a huge forgiven loan, or his use of emminent domain to build his baseball stadium, (which while not criminal, should have upset the wingnuts if they weren’t a bunch of hypocrites). Or let’s discuss his Nazi loving grandfather. Or his daddy who clearly broke the law and lied about it during Iran Contra. Or maybe lets just discuss the war crimes he’s currently committing.
But, since you’re so stupid, you’d forget it all by Rush’s next broadcast. So nevermind.

The media is just not equipped to deal with the “big lie”. Prurient interest in the Clintons’ marriage: All hand son deck. Subversion of democracy or lying to go to war: Oh heavens, no.

As a journalism professor, I find the media’s failure in this case to exercise any level of skepticism truly pathetic.

Definition of Integrity: When WINNERS investigate questions about the handling of the race.

Larry it was RFK Jr’s brothers who had the affair with the teenager and had the jeep accident that paralyzed the girl. His cousins and uncle did the other things you mentioned, but let’s not get picky. It’s too bad it takes an article full of inconsistencies written by someone less than credible to get the American people to engage in debate over the many wrongs with the electoral process, but hey, whatever it takes.

Idea: nationwide organizing ahead of the 06 elections to get out immediate word of fraud to citizens. Have the citizens prepared and ready to show unity with a symbol (I think the American Flag would be perfect) and all voters who voted Democrat visibily show up in public bearing the flag. Flags on houses, cars, clothing, everywhere. Like Ukraine’s “Orange Revolution”…a peaceful and visible example of exit polls that can’t be denied. Plus we take back the flag for our side. Work across every grassroots organization to plan this and get the word out. It can be done first for 06 and then surely will have momentum by 08, when we know they will steal the elections. Hundreds of millions of Americans flying the flag to show their patriotic belief in their right to vote fairly and to stand their ground would be a force to reckon with.

gettinthehellout | 6/4/2006, 9:17 am EST

ProudAmerican – What is it you’re so proud of? The substandard school that couldn’t manage to teach you how to write a coherent paragraph? Or, is it the fact you can be a half literate bumpkin and still be a successfull troll?
——————

And who controls the schools you moron? Liberal, leftist, teachers unions. Another great example of the failures of the left. They can teach kids all they need to know about homosexuallity but not how to read and write.

Rolling Stone needs to immediately change the cover title of the June 15th release to The 2004 Election WAS Stolen. No question marks about it. Take a stand. Raise hell. The sources and facts around this case are beyond refute. It would be much tougher (given all of this evidence) to prove the schisters actually won!

Let’s face it. The America I was taught about as a child and thought still existed, is dead. Fair, equitable, scrupulously honest no longer. I’ll know the end is here if Ken Blackwell gets elected Governor.

I would think that based on Bush’s current approval rating that all the Bushies would be glad to hide behind the corrupt election – as in “It’s not my fault – I didn’t rig Ohio.”

Funny how there’s been no increase in the Threat Level since Nov 2, 2004. Even Scooter and Abramoff got thrown to the wolves without so much as a code orange. Except of course when London mass transit got attacked we had to assume ours would too because everything in the world that happens is really about us, isn’t it? But only the subways got a new alert level, not people. Because the people that matter already have their bunker ready. And God told Bush not to worry about the rest of us.

Apparently many Washington Post readers wanted a contest to pick the next threat level rise. The paper declined. Pussies.

I’m a Canadian citizen and watch American politics closely, like people in a lot of other countries. I’m amazed by this detailed article written by a reputable and longstanding American politician, and I’m shocked that so little has been done to assure the public that they are accurate in perceiving the Bush administration as illegitimate. Illegitimate governments should not be followed; there is no reason for consent. The Bush administration has been entirely invalidated and the people should impeach Bush himself.

Are you people really shocked by this article? None of this surprises me at all. This is exactly what I assumed this administration lead by Carl Rove were up to all along. His diabolical past is no secret.

Here are some more shocking facts that you may not be aware of. While the American public was asleep this administration dismantled the pendulum, so don’t expect to to swing back in your life time. And even more horrifying, they cut all funding to the light at the end of the tunnel, so don’t expect anyone to find their way out of this.

The United States America has been bought and sold both figuratively and literally. The tipping point has past folks. Welcome to the United Corporations of America.

I hope the futility of my comments enrage you so much that you’ll actually go out there and do something about this mess……..Well, get out there!!!!

You are all completely unhinged.

It should be absolutely clear why the Democrats have failed at the polls for three straight elections – people like Rolling Stone readers who have lost touch with reality.

Matt,

Since you’re here, how do you know that you aren’t the Rolling Stone reader who has lost touch with reality?

Wow…Robert Kennedy thinks Bush stole the election. He also thinks that Bush wakes up every morning thinking of ways to pollute the environment. Literally.

He’s a complete kook. He’s almost as mentally unstable as Dean. With spokesmen like this for the Democratic party, the Republicans don’t need to steal an election. They just need to let the Democrats keep talking…

Because I’m not the one blindly chasing the conspiracy theory du jour, and I’m not stuck in a September 10 mentality.

Over the years,”We The People”, have let this happen to ourselves. I have to ask:

Why do we continue to allow people who have been found quilty in a political scandal for any reason back into politics? During the Regan administration, over 500 people of Regan’administration and those surronding him were indited for conspiracy to “cover-up” during the Iran-contra scandal-over 400 were found guilty–and five of those who were found guilty (at least to the best of my knowlege, mabey more), GWB appopinted to his administration in 2000. My point? If a bank for obvious reason would not hire a convicted Bank robber as an employee, why do “We The People” allow politicians to appoint those who have been found quily of a cover-up back into politics. “We The People” should demand that action be taken that prevents this from happening. Mark my words,”Scouter” will be back in politics again.DeLay,if found quilty,will be back in politics again,Blackwell,if found guily, will be back in politics again.People as such who are found quilty, and maybe even as someone such as Rove who has been indicted as many times as he has in his career, should never be permitted into an,appointed to, or serve in any governmental posistion again.
“WE The People” need to start demanding integrity and ethics be put back into government and those who serve “WE The People”.

“WE The People” need to see to it that a stop is put to any political candidate from having their, or others records sealed to prevent incriminating information about themselves from being discovered.”We The People” have a right to know any information about any person who runs for any public office. GWB had his records sealed before he ran in 2000, and one of the first things he did in office was seal his fathers’ records–Why? what is there to hide. No, I am not a Democrat, yet I will NEVER vote Republican again as long as I live. I’am sick and tired of this christian face the Republicans put on in the effort to keep the the christian faith based votes, and I’am telling you as a christian, I could not deceive and lie the way this administration has and call myself a christian based on abortion alone-I know atheists who would not abort a fetus. (maybe their christians and really don’t know it yet.)

This is not directed towards any one political party.I only reference to Republicans at this point because of the current facts,The Dems are not perfect either,My statement is directed to politics. As some have suggested,Why doesn’t RFK jr. do something about this. Why don’t “WE The People” do somrthing about this ourselves.Why shouldn’t we all start flooding our Congress ans Senate with demands to do something, or maybe if they don’t, we will have to elect someone who will represent “WE The People”. I personaaly do things that make a difference to me. I learned who Ton Delays’ biggest contributor was to his re-election campain-and I stopped shopping at thier store.If you are discussed with Blackwell, then contribute something financially-any amount you can-to anyone you may beleive in who runs against him–you can be assured that if the allegations are true about how he swong votes over to GWB–he has one hell of a favor comming to him to secure his victory in Ohio. Since I do not agree with all the outsourcing of jobs to India, and I cannot completely understand thier use of the english language at times, I insist on an enterpretor to call me back when I need technical assistance if I have trouble understanding.

For so many years,”WE The People” have been to complacent with who, and what our politicians do.”We The People” have said quietly in our minds, “I’m just one person, what can I do.” FIND A WAY-if you want RFK jr. to help, then support him and let him know.

One last thought, I will never vote repulican again for the following reasons:

Watergate Scandal; The Iran-Contra Scandal; and on top of all the controversy in this administration, GWB said publically that he was not concerened in Osama Ben Laden, or where he is. This man attacked the United States, and GWB has insulted “We The People” who have made this country great! This is the greatest insult a president could ever slap the people of this nation with, and it shows nothing but a lack of respect for everyone of us and especially those who have died,past and present,that have defended this country. Blackwells’, Roves’, DeLays’ Liebermans’, Libbys’ect,will continue to destroy the ethics and integrity of this nation as long as “WE The People” allow it to continue.

Come on and get real!, Lost or Won fair and square? If things were fair and square, you would not have dozens of top republican political strongmen under legitimate federal inditment. IT is enron of political circles. Come on and we are not talking about some insignificant infractions here. Money laundering, Obstruction of justice, perjury, just to name a few, at the highest levels. If this is happening in the executive branch, congress and the top of the party. Does anyone actually believe that the underlings are blameless? Heck it is usually the underlings that get hung out to dry or the ones falling on thier swords to protect their masters.

I do know one thing. Just as a elected president can not stay in office for more than two terms. It should be equally illegal for more than one family member to run for the presidency. Heck if Jeb runs and wins (are there any doubts to this) We might as well declare ourselve a Monarchy, where the ruling class is determined by blood lines. NO the office for president should never have been allowed to pass from father to son in the first place. No matter whether Democrat or Republican.

It was only one vote, but I saw first hand the dirty tactics employed during the 2004 elections in Ohio. I served as a volunteer for the Kerry campaign in Columbus on election day. Late in the afternoon I answered a request to provide a ride to the polls for an elderly lady. I went to the address that was given to me. It was a high rise home for the elderly near downtown Columbus. There was a polling station there, since this was a very large residence. BUT, the lady in question had been transferred TEMPORARILY to a residentkal rehab facility about six miles from this apartment building. I drove the six miles to the rehabilitation facility in the cold and rain. It was now after 5:00 PM and dark. When I arrived at the rehab facility, I noticed that there was a polling station there. I immediately went to the officials at that polling station and asked if this elderly, black lady could vote there, if only by posting a provisional ballot. She would only need to be wheeled down the hall from her room. Despite my pleas, the request was not granted. So, I loaded this very pleasant, patient lady into my car in the rain. She was in a wheel chair, so this took some doing. While driving back to her permanent home, I asked her how old she was. “Well,” ” She said, I’m 99 and 1/2 years old.” I joked with her that she didn’t look a day over 95, and she laughed. We had a very pleasant, intelligent conversation during our six mile ride. However, I was skeptical about her age. When we arrived at her legal polling place, I placed her in line for what turned out to be an hour-long wait to vote. While I was waiting, I spoke to the person at the desk of this residence. He verified that the lady was in fact 99 years old. (He thought she was 99 and 3/4.)

So, here we were trundling around a nearly 100-year-old lady in the cold, damp, rainy and dark evening when she should have been able to cast her ballot, at least a provitional, back at her temporary rehab residence. Kenneth Blackwell’s attempts to stifle likely Kerry voters was in full swing. I have no way to know WHO she voted for, but, I am proud that I was able to allow one vote to be cast that might, a vote that might have been lost by a less committed person than this lady.

I can’t believe there is not total outrage! Why isn’t everyone contacting their representatives, contacting the news medias? Unless the public stands behind Mr Kennedy nothing will happen. Voting is our only strength, our only control over government.

So the guy responsible for overseeing the election in a state is a senior member of one of the parties contesting the election? Doesn’t that kind of system cause alarm-bells blaring on its own?

I haven’t the time to read every comment here but something I heard this weekend explains much. In 1985 there were 55 different media owners of newspaper, magazines, radio and television. Right now there are four, with further consolidation being sought by the big four. By pursuing any of the numerous stories of wrongdoing by this administration, what do you think the odds are of getting that “consolidation” legislation passed? The Media is sitting this one out. They want to come to your town and own every SINGLE outlet–every radio station, every tv station, every newspaper…and that legislation is less likely to be signed into law if they are in the middle of investigating any of those crooks in Washington who are in control of our entire government.

Is Rolling Stone high? They have a nephew of the man many believe stole the 1960 election write an article on election fraud. Am I the only one who sees the craziness of that?

TO Matt:

Are you afraid of the truth? I don’t ever remember seeing a fusaloge at the base of the pentagon–Did you see one?

Why did GWB fly members of Bin Laden’s family out of the copuntry when a no fly zone was in effect.

Do you honestly beleive with all the technology available to us,and the rest of the world, we can’t find Bin Laden. After all, wasn’t it the Bin Laden family who fuinded GWB in his two failed oil companies. (by the way, he’s running our nation the same way-right into bankruptsy) Mr. Kennedy, we need your help. Mr. Jesse Jackson, yours as well. We need someone who is familiar with the process to get us started–you both maybe suprised how many will support the both of you.

“Stop crying, it was 2 years ago, you lost, face it” Why is it that all the arguments on here made by Bush supporters are completely idiotic. Oh wait…Bush supporters…idiotic..
nevermind, i got it now.

I wanted to invade cuba. I thought it would be a good idea to paint air force planes to look like commercial aircraft, load it with selected individuals, and then once airborne, swap it with a drone and have the drone blown up over cuban airspace, so that I could say they attacked us and have justification for invading cuba.

Do you guys really believe just because I died in 1988 that my spirit didn’t live on in the likes of William Kristol, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney or Paul Wolfowitz? They posted a plan on the web in 1998 that said we’d need a new pearl harbor to justify invading the middle east, a play right out of my and the joint chiefs of staff from 1962’s playbook!

Great work Neo-conservatives! You pulled off what Kennedy wouldn’t let me pull off way back then!

An aircraft at Elgin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone [a remotely controlled unmanned aircraft]. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida.
From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Elgin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will be transmitting on the international distress frequency a “May Day” message stating he is under attack by Cuban MiG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft, which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO [International Civil Aviation Organization] radio stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the U.S. what has happened to the aircraft instead of the U.S. trying to “sell” the incident.

Sorry to tell you, but y’all don’t live in a democracy. Never really have. And now? Well, any semblance of democracy in the US is gravely wounded, and it’s not going to get better. Dark age ahead, I’d say. Some say the 2000 and 2004 elections were not stolen–those same people deny global warming, too. Anyway, who’s gonna help you, the Democrats? Yeah, right. Where were they in December 2004? For that matter, where were you, armchair citizen?! How pathetic that one article in a pop culture magazine is enough to get y’all to start praising the Lord and thinking that something is finally starting to happen. Nothing is happening and nothing is going to happen, people! You, common man, are not in control. Understand that, finally. Crack a Bud and enjoy the hurricane season!

McAmerican,

W A K E . U P ! ! !

You are the one who is delusional.

If your kids are trying to tell you something, LISTEN TO THEM!

WAKE UP. You obviously cannot learn from history. You are the one who is going to learn how to “concentrate” because you refuse to recognize the upside-down world we live in where it’s right to torture people in order to defend a way of life that doesn’t condone torture. Your ilk are the reason why we will be in a constant state of war for the indefinite future.

Your kids are right, and I guess they realize they’re going to be the ones fighting to defend your right to buy german cars. Do you feel good about that? Do you hate your children that much that you are willing to close your mind and deny the cognitive dissonance, and just allow the corrupt plans to take your children from you and have them killed or mangled in some foreign country?

Geez. I hope you get foreclosed on sometime soon. I hope you lose everything, but I pray your children don’t get killed supporting your idiocy.

Screw you.

I make more than you, and I have a big house with a 52″ plasma. What can you show for all your bullshit?

Bush is right, and I love Bush.

If you people don’t like america, then leave!

I am so sick of complainers.

Anyone that cannot show me deniable facts is a moron.

Please, tell me who rigged the eelction. tell me why, too.

I need, reason, motive and opportunity. I’ve seen CSI, I know how it works. please, show me the proof! I need proof!

I’m not closed minded, I accept all kinds of alternative theories if they prove right and i see it on NBC nightly news.

Can you get this on nbc news? I might believe you if I saw it there.

Mister Mc American,

Duuuuude, relax. You are a lemming.

You just supposedly read an article giving you INCONTRAVERTABLE proof!

What more do you want? a fricking time machine to take you back to each and every instance of voter fraud????

Come on man, you’re supposed to be smarter than that!

We can hold your hand, and walk your through the entire field of facts, but I think you won’t have the intellectual capacity to handle it.

Like a line in a movie “TRUTH? You want TRUTH!?! You can’t handle the truth!!!”

Go back to your regularly scheduled programming, McAmerican, nothing to see here.

trey | 6/5/2006, 12:44 am EST

Is Rolling Stone high? They have a nephew of the man many believe stole the 1960 election write an article on election fraud. Am I the only one who sees the craziness of that?
+++++++++++++++

YES. You are the only one who sees the craziness in that.

It’s like, who does the FBI hire to crack safes? safe crackers.

Who does the FBI hire to catch bad-check writers? A bad-check writer.

Dooood, if the messenger isn’t 100% morally, intellectually and spiritually pure, you should burn the message before even reading it!

Wow, there they are again, at 1:52 am. Amazing! I hit reload three times, and that comment wasn’t there, but now they’re back.

I guess someone is actively monitoring this comment section.

crrrazzzzzzeeeeeee!

easy lyman, I think you’re getting paranoid now too.

I doubt that Rolling Stone censors comments.

Maybe it was a glitch?

But anyway, if you’re really Lyman Lemnitzer, maybe you can tell us who is behind all of the vote-fixing and vote-prevention.

Can you? I know you worked with Rumsfeld, maybe you showed him how to screw with americans to get your way?

the links I keep posting are still disappearing!

I posted three links, TWICE, and they are nowhere to be found. Someone is definitely screwing with this comment area.

PUT MY LINKS BACK! ASSES!

Odd, they only show up immediately after I post a complaint saying they’ve been removed again.

5 minutes later, they’re gone. I have links posted between:

————–
Tbone | 6/5/2006, 1:51 am EST

“Stop crying, it was 2 years ago, you lost, face it” Why is it that all the arguments on here made by Bush supporters are completely idiotic. Oh wait…Bush supporters…idiotic..
nevermind, i got it now.
—————————
and

—————————
Lyman Lemnitzer | 6/5/2006, 1:56 am EST

I wanted to invade cuba. I thought it would be a good idea to paint air force planes to look like commercial aircraft, load it with selected individuals, and then once airborne, swap it with a drone and have the drone blown up over cuban airspace, so that I could say they attacked us and have justification for invading cuba.

————————-

and again, between,

—————————-
dude…. | 6/5/2006, 3:25 am EST

trey | 6/5/2006, 12:44 am EST

Is Rolling Stone high? They have a nephew of the man many believe stole the 1960 election write an article on election fraud. Am I the only one who sees the craziness of that?
+++++++++++++++

YES. You are the only one who sees the craziness in that.

—————————–
and

———————————
Lyman Lemnitzer | 6/5/2006, 3:33 am EST

Wow, there they are again, at 1:52 am. Amazing! I hit reload three times, and that comment wasn’t there, but now they’re back.

I guess someone is actively monitoring this comment section.

crrrazzzzzzeeeeeee!

—————————-

They better stay there this time!

I let it happen, I’m sorry. They paid me a lot, I couldn’t resist.

But I bought a lot of heroin with it, so I’m supporting the foreign policy anyway.

Dude, credibility is the essence of good journalism. So it was dumb for R.S. to hire a relative of a guy who is suspected of stealing the 1960 election to do a piece on election fraud. Robert Kennedy, Jr. could be 100% pure but even the appearance of impropriety is enough to sink a story.

This question marking of the facts is a media infotainment low mark in the age of information. It seems to attract the Neanderthals whose brains seek out controversy like shiny objects to a newborn baby, but it also obscures truth and leaves the lesser intellectually capable thinking there is “debate.” I think Rolling Stone needs to get over this childish tactic and join the world of respected publications.

”Elephant in the living room, is it big or just an illusion? You decide, details at eleven!”

”Global warming, caused by fossil fuel burn-off or farting by the Republicans? We’ll have two guests from both sides of this burning issue. You decide, details at eleven!”

“Karl Rove, political genius or insecure cheater who couldn’t participate in a fair race if his worthless life depended upon it?”

Instead:
”Substantial majority of scientists agree: Global Warming is caused by man-made industrious fuel waste in the atmosphere. Details at eleven!”

“Elephant in the living room. So f***ing big you can’t see the walls and ceiling. Details at eleven.”

“Karl Rove. Emotionally brutalized as a child dweeb. Increasingly insecure as an adult. He simplistically reacted by learning to hate anything intellectual and progressive at an early age, because peace and love, moderation and diplomacy, were counter to the contempt and hatred and intolerance that best related to his resentment. Cheating and lying in every political endeavor he ever participated in, he is labeled a genius by those who benefit from his dastardly deeds . A false identity, for a genius can play fair and out-smart his or her peers. Details at eleven.”

I can’t help but think of what devious tactics the Republicans are working on right now as we speak. All aimed at winning the 06 and 08 elections by hook or crook. The masterminds who proved very adept at stealing the previous elections have no intention of relinquishing any power in the near future. And I’m sure that they’re working full time in order to secure the upcoming elections in November and then in 08. What also disturbs me very much is what are the Democrats doing to stop this from happening again. They already proved how totally inefficient they are. I feel that they are equally at fault for having let this happen and wouldn’t be at all surprised if they are now entrenched in a false sense of security brimming with overconfidence screaming out “Bring on November”

gettinthehellout- it appears when you resort to personal name calling, you’re at the bottom, circling the drain, grasping for any available edge. Sorry, you lose. You’re in rookie ball trying to play in the majors. Nice try though. I’m sure anyone’s dead relative could contribute as much as you!

Both Gore and Kerry were unwilling to provoke a constitutional crisis by refusing to accept the new president as the legal President of the US.

They and their party worked to keep Ralph Nader off the ballot in both elections. They tied him up in the courts and denied him access to the debates. New parties cannot grow in our country. That is why we have no choice at the polls and many do not vote.

I was in the hospital at voting time, I sent my son out for an absentee ballot. He was told my request was not only filled out improper but I would need my sinature notorized etc. SURE I planned for that e.r. trip with going home days after the polls closed with 40 staples in my guts.

I always associated Rolling Stone with people whose minds were addled by too much drug use. This is further evidence of it.

You might be a liberal if…..
You believe there’s something fraudulent about Bush’s 118,000 vote margin in Ohio, but think Kerry’s 9,000 vote margin in New Hampshire, 11,000 vote margin in Wisconsin, 66,000 vote margin in Maine, 76,000 vote margin in Oregon and 98,000 vote margin in Minnesota are perfectly legitimate.

Thanks to RS & RKJR for publishing aclear article about the 2004 Voter fraud. I have been embarassed, angered, offended, frightened, ridiculed, and outraged by the lengths the right-wing neo cons will go to obtain & control power & wealth. BUT I WOULD RATHER DIE than just let them steal this country completely. We must vote, insist that the media address these issues, and call others to action everywhere. If necessary we must be willing to take this to the streets of every inch of our country.

I want a follow-up article to detail how the Democrats in Washington state stole that election. Then we can compare which party is better. Also, it is ironic that Ralph Neas, who wants unelected judges to impose their policies on all of us without recourse, to talk about democracy and elections.

I was a life long republican until after I ran for the state assembly in 1980. The corruption and dirty tricks used by the republican right forced me to change to a Democrat. The party left me, it no longer represents core values of the people but rather government of the corporation by the corporation for the the corporation.

“I was in the hospital at voting time, I sent my son out for an absentee ballot. He was told my request was not only filled out improper but I would need my sinature notorized etc. SURE I planned for that e.r. trip with going home days after the polls closed with 40 staples in my guts.”

PROOF POSITIVE here that the hospitals were also in on the fix!!

If everyone ‘in on it ‘ just went out to vote for Bush, he would’ve won by a landslide.

I’m glad to see all of the democrats doing what they do best, whining.

IT’s the REPUBLIDEM PARTY NOT 2 DIFFERENT PARTIES WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A FEW BULLDOGS LIKE JOHN CONYERS JR US REPRESENTATIVE FROM MI.

I have sent e-mails and letters to my elected officials asking them what they plan to do to “fix” this obvious case of fraud. The sad part is that the “fix” was put on the voting process. What I should have asked for, in specific terms, is that all persons involved with this case be thoroughly investigated and jailed if found guilty. It is the only way to prevent these same people from committing their crimes again, every time we have an election.

Why haven’t we had any hearings about this and why have no charges been filed?

America, if you wish to keep getting ass-reamed by crooked Republicans, demand that they at least buy you dinner and flowers first. Stop bending over all the time. Aren’t a bunch of you Democratic politicians out there lawyers, too? How come you’re not upholding the law, like you said you would when you took the oath? How dare you ask that American citizens take your place when the Republicans come knocking for a dry hump, you cowards you?!

Yeah, I said it. And I’m not taking it back, either.

So, the Bush machine stole an election. No surprise.
The only question I have is, “What is going to be done about it?”
-a.

If you want to do something about it call your House reps and tell them to co-sponsor HR 550 Rush Holt’s “Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act”. It already has over 180 co-sponsors. Your rep is either for this bill and clean elections or they’re for vote fraud. Demand an answer.

markg8 – I’ll look that over and thanks for sharing. I hope people will do something. The problem is not the message – the message is truthful and reliable. The problem is motivating Americans to feel appropriately outraged that they’ve been *had*. Not once but twice. No one who could have made a difference at the time gave a crap, so many folks are like, “Well, sure…NOW you tell me…!”

I saw a comment on here by a person who claimed to be a journalism professor, who was sad that journalists weren’t even a LITTLE skeptical at the time. And no one even covered the alleged “terrorism threat”. WTF indeed.

To Trey:

Are the data in the article untrue because the author is the nephew of someone who himself benefited from a stolen election? Do his unsavory connections therefore make the information he cites false? Sure, he may have a bias in deciding which data to bring forth in his article. So what data do you have that disprove his point?

To Tad:

OK, we Liberals are listening: what data do you have suggesting Kerry’s operatives stole the elections in New Hampshire, Maine, Oregon, Wisconsin and Minnesota? That he is reported to have won by such small margins doesn’t in and of itself imply Democrats or Liberals stole those elections. But that’s not to say it’s not possible. Present your data.

FIX the PRINT version of this article. It only includes the first page, not the rest. For those of us with poor eyesight, who orint pieces to read them, this means a tremendous waste of paper.

What, doies Ken Blackwell moonlight as your Webmeister?

FIX IT!

Ohio’s a big state, it has 20 electoral votes and is generally considered important in the wanna-be-president calculus. But RFK Jr’s article is titled “was the election stolen,” not “was Ohio stolen.” He shows that there were a whole lotta problems in Ohio, but there were plenty of other states in play and plenty of ways to get to 270, all of which Kerry blew. And all of which make Democrats look like whiny sore losers when they insist on bringing up the ‘04 election instead of concentrating on the ‘06 and ‘08.

RFK Jr. does make some good points at the end of his article, all of which are far more useful than the rest of his article. Voting is important. Yes, we can all agree on that. Republicans continue to work to suppress voting by insisting on proof of citizenship, national voter ID’s and difficult registration rules. Voter confidence is eroded by untrustworthy electronic voting machines, lawsuits and partisan gamesmanship. Without voter confidence in elections, elections cannot function. We should take those final principles and apply them in a more forward-looking frame.

As I face an imminent move to Ohio in the coming weeks, I was excited to register to vote in this notorious battleground state. I am ashamed that so many republicans would dismiss statements of fact about the manipulations of the election as the musings of “whiny sore losers”. These charges brought against Blackwell are documented in court records and would not exsist unless some tampering occured. These people need to stop being blinded by their generous tax breaks and the empty rhetoric of politicians with ‘values’. The extreme right wing of the Republican party is attempting to hijack our democracy, and obviously in many ways have already succeeded. What is Blackwell, a Bush crony and campaign contributor, doing running the state’s election anyways? Didn’t anyone pay attention to the Katherine Harris/Florida fiasco? Average Republican citizens are in such a delerious state of denial. Most are good people who know the difference between right and wrong, legitamacy and fraud. It astounds me that they prefer to keep the blinders on rather than consider that even in the greatest country on earth, something like this can be perpetrated by people with sufficient power, resources and will.

To MClamb and WT – The bipartisan 9/11 Commission, which included some members who were no friends of the Bush administration, thoroughly debunked your wild claims, proving that the Michael Moores of the world are either liars, delusional or both.

WT – and by the way, yes I saw the plane hit the Pentagon – on the recently released videotape that had been tied up in the Moussaoui trial.

Stay off the drugs, kid.

As much as one can blame the republicans we must also ask what the democrats are doing to improve the voter situation. get out there Mr. Kennedy and ensure the machines are available for the next election, ensure the registration cards are there, etc, etc. Fight back!

the more serious qustions are:

“Will we (the average american) be able to exist above poverty in the upcoming police state?”

“Do we have time to regain control of ‘our’ government before we find we’re living in ‘a brave new world’?”

“Will the ‘new world’ look like ROLLERBALL? or WESTWORLD? or ESCAPE FROM NEWYORK/L.A.? or RUNNING MAN? or etc., etc., etc.”

We, the average americans, are bound by the duty of citizenship to discuss the tragedy of this presidential administration in a most serious manner, or as was stated above by:

Anonymous | 6/2/2006, 10:31 am EST

“Yes it was stolen — but you got what you deserved. If Americans continue to allow the likes of GWB and DeLay to rise into power through dirty politics they shouldn’t complain.”

And we must discuss the issues, even though its boring, and we must do more than talk about the issues, we must find and support candidates who have our best interests at the core of their being. This means putting aside time for boring civic duties.

We all have see video of WTC#II fall followed by WTC #I but some of you bloggers are like a bunch of pathetic sheep with an IQ in double digits. Listen to testimonies of people who heard the explosions of the controlled demolition at GROUND ZERO. No plane hit TWC#7 which fell 10 hours later. Do you even ask yourself why these are the ONLY steel concrete skyscapers to ever fall related to fire. Those steel beams would have had to burn continuously at 3000 degrees to melt. Airplane fuel burns at 2000 degrees. Go watch LOUDER THAN WORDS 2nd edition dedicated to the victims of 9/11 if nothing else to hear an opinion other than the broken record in your head.

Also since Bush has been in office, over 750 bills he signed into laws, he wrote his own executive priviledge for each one in disregard. Such laws as WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTION OF FEDERAL EMPLOYEES, TORTURING DETAINEES, AND OVERSITE PROVISIONS RELATED TO THE PATRIOT ACT, the Executive branch plans to go by THEIR OWN set of rules. The Bushit administration believes they are above the law and they treat the Constitution as a document only to be IGNORED.

The fragile environment cannot take the massive human POLLUTION ANYMORE. GET IT!!! The Glaciers are severly melting. The oil barrons running this country are the biggest losers who do not help out fellow man or other species racing to extinction due to climate changes. They have sent our military to die for nothing AND put the US at serious risk potentially esclating the world into bloody destruction. They are pussys who would not fight BUT have no problem pressing buttons. WE MUST DEMAND COURT TRIALS holding these lying murderers accountable for their actions.

Missouri GOP controlled state government this past session voted to mandate Government Issued Photo ID’s in order to vote, exactly like the law struck down in Georgia. Unfortunately yet again, nobody is talking about it.

Mr. Kennedy is a fanciful dreamer. Maybe he should have investigated the genuine theft of the 1960 election by his uncle. How can all these “conspirators” amongst the GOP remain silent?

What an interesting joke. Get over 2000 already. If Clinton/Gore had blasted Osama after the Cole was attacked and nearly sunk, Gore would have won. They quite stupidly lost – and Kerry did too when that moron said he “actually voted for it before I voted against it.” Case closed.

Mark P, you yourself say that Kennedy’s bias may result in his bringing forth data he likes and ignoring data he doesn’t. I admit its a strong article (a little long though) but my only point is that the story is nearly overshadowed by who wrote it. It gives the opponents of the idea cheap ammo to attack it. Imagine Sean Hannidy seeing the article and seeing its written by a Kennedy. He knows his history that JFK is thought to have stole an election so he can focus on the incongruity of having a relative write an article on this subject and completely ignore the content. Bad editorial decision to not think that through.

Please, all you people need to get real. “George Bush is evil”, “you get what you deserve”, “the election was rigged”. It’s all crap!!! I’ve got news, all the politicians are dirty. It doesn’t matter if they are Republican, or Democrat. There are two laws in this country one to govern the people and a second to govern politicians so they can legally take bribes, kill and rape. WAKE UP AMERICA!!!! It may be too late.

wow, every leftist barking nutcase is hootin’ hollerin’ and screaming because they didn;t win, so they look for excuse why they didn’t. Too bad they don’t look at themselves. The Dems are their own worst enemies.

A Kennedy writing an article about stolen elections?!?!?!? What’s next? the Kennedy school of driving run by Teddy and his idiot son? I’d suggest swimming lessons to anyone who chooses to sign up.

Face it, even with the cemetary vote, bussing minorities to the polls, the felon vote, and the illegal alien vote the demoncrats LOST! Sane people don’t vote for demoncrats, get used to it.

Pigs at the trough are fattened for the slaughter.

I wonder if the Repugs – er, Republicans – are here earning their salary for propaganda, or if there really are that many arrogant dick swingers with nothing better to do that start an argument?

Looks, folks. I am sorry you didn’t get to read about this scandal from a source *you* might have liked better. Life is like that – imperfect and messy. You don’t have to like the messenger, but it would be irresponsible not to take his message seriously.

Since when was telling the truth and being pissed about a stolen election grounds for being a pussy? What’s *really* sad is that this constant macho-schoolyard posturing is going to make some people feel bad for agreeing with RFK, Jr. When they’re not behind the cloak of privavcy provided in this forum, and they’re out there in the real world, some people will indeed feel too chickenshit to agree with this message publicly. Look folks – just if people call you a pussy for believing in the truth, don’t worry. Your balls will not fall off.

If you think there’s any truth to the BULLSHIT rfk jr wrote you’re not a pussy, but mentally retarded. You ignorant dims remind me of children. You cheat in every election for over 40 years and insist that anyone who beats you is cheating to do it. You just cannot comprehend that anyone but a better cheater can defeat you.

It’s not our fault you morons are so blinded by your hatred that you cannot see the irony of a kennedy of all people insisting an election was stolen because he didn’t get his way.

As RFK JR stated in his well researched article, American history is full of election fraud. Now we have a chance to reverse the process. Like his father before him, he is always learning and changing and becoming more compassionate and dedicated. As a citizen who worked in the trenches in Pinellas County Florida during the 2004 debacle I am extremely grateful that someone of his stature has stepped up to the plate.
Two of the saddest days of my life: the murder of Robert Kennedy and election day
2004. At my precinct in a working class black
neighborhood in Pinellas County, the youth in that neighborhood came to the polls. There were 300 more who voted than in the previous election. By the end of the day a voter in my precinct showed up to vote with her husband. She reported to me that a couple of young boys were going door to door collecting absentee votes form voters in my precinct. My job for 5 days prior to election day was to identify the Kerry supporters and get them to the polls. I had gotten to know the people in those neighborhoods and made some calls to see if any of them had been approached by the boys. And they had. One elderly man said that they came by “two weeks ago, but I knew that it was wrong to give them my absentee vote” I called a number that was specifically set up for voter fraud reporting.
Not a thing was done about it.
And I have not been involved in politics since. But if RFK jr continues to pursue this
I will work with him. This is a tragedy of epic
preportions when you consider all the corruption and death that has occured since that fatal day. This issue is more important than any other. If we don’t get this one right,
no other political action makes sense,

So if we can’t do anything about the past – let’s do something about the future. How do we fix it? Who do we call and where do we volunteer services to help? I’m a process improvement person by trade, where do I sign up?

This has been and is an issue that completely destroys the concept of democracy. It is about power and greed. People are fed up and feel helpless. People are still angry. Yet we have a Congress with no will. a Judiciary that is corrupt and a complicit Executive Branch. It is profound. The truth is there was electiion fraud in almost all states so if anyone defends the results they are delusional. There is simply too much hard evidence to refute the results. The bottom line is George Bush was not elected by the people in 2000 or 2004.

As someone who worked hard in the last election I can say I seen a direct corrilation between my efforts and the result .
I spent numorous hours working in the heart of the hood of Detroit Michigan . Forming disscusion groups together to include former Black panthers the gang bangers. I could fill pages up here on what I experanced . But let me say this the result was a 17% vote for GWB in Detroit the highest vote for a republican in years . I’ll say this to you lame ass puter nerd democraps once the republican party gains more experance in oranizing in cities like Detroit the sooner we will see the death of the most worthless parties in America Dimminacrats.

Using the fact that it was a record turnout to refute that there was voter disenfranchment is non-sequitor. If voters were not disenfranchised, there would be even a higher record voter turnout. Also, the fact that Gore did not carry Tennessee has nothing to do with Kerry in Ohio. The argument made by another “anonymous” on 6/2/2006, 11:06 am EST, is breach of logic. His conclusion that “Kerry lost fair and square” does not rationally follow from his premises based on a play on words. and one irrelevent fact.

None of this makes any difference.
Kerry quit the race. That ends it right there.
It wasn’t because of who had the most votes, or who ran the most ads, or even who was favored in the exit polls.
BUSH IS PRESIDENT BECAUSE KERRY GAVE UP.
Had kerry stayed and fought for it, then this would be an issue. But, much like his military career, he quit before it was over.
He didn’t lose the race. That would denote that he was still willing to fight for it. He ran away from it. And you can sit there and come up with countless reasons WHY he surrenderd, but that doen’t change the fact that he DID surrender
And this is the guy you wanted to put in office?

Quoted:
—
Trevor Taylor | 6/6/2006, 3:59 am EST

If you think there’s any truth to the BULLSHIT rfk jr wrote you’re not a pussy, but mentally retarded. You ignorant dims remind me of children. You cheat in every election for over 40 years and insist that anyone who beats you is cheating to do it. You just cannot comprehend that anyone but a better cheater can defeat you.

It’s not our fault you morons are so blinded by your hatred that you cannot see the irony of a kennedy of all people insisting an election was stolen because he didn’t get his way.
—

Do you see how you failed to address any point whatsoever? There’s nothing there to make us think you even read the article.

*Why* do you – and the many commenters like you – believe the author is wrong? He’s given point after sourced point to say why he thinks he’s right. So the only way to rufute that is to show why those points are wrong, or to find points of your own.

Blindly stating an opinion does not make it fact.

I only want to know what the American people feel about Flight 93 being shotdown then being lied to with the fabricated “Let’s Roll” propaganda…are Americans ok with continually being lied to?

I am from the UK and have no particular grouse against the USA electoral system. I may think it is a bit quaint, and designed for the 18th Century – but our system is also ancient and maybe ‘no longer use for purpose’. My observation is that the Bush supporters only response appears to be – “tough you lost, get a life”. I can understand that at one level, but IF these allegations are true – take it to court and prove it, if you can! – then surely that is far more important for the future of the USA than this one election? Are Bush people so narrow in their thinking? I can’t believe that they are, so the more thoughtful ones out there, is this really what you want your democratic process to be like? And how would you react if Kerry had won and the evidence was that it was only due to fraud.

So what you’re saying is that the Republicans stole the Kennedy’s 1960 playbook on how to win an election.

6/6/06 – Look for Chickens falling especially hard in areas where Bush supporters live. Let’s see today the US is still trapped in the new FULL METAL JACKET thanks the loser work of a foolish mental jackass and his administration of corrupt lying criminals. Defar is still experiencing GENOCIDE people and the US can help stop the murder of innocent men women and children.
Thank you R.S. for becoming a beacon of what the hell is really going on in America.

To nimn2003 – yes, Bush supporters are that narrow minded. They’d rather live with the results than risk looking weak. For everyday Americans, we grow more embarrassed and frustrated by the minute at the actions of our President and his supporters. As recent poll numbers show, we don’t much care for this guy at all and the way he presents our nation. Please pass the word around to other folks in The UK! Thank you.

Also to Ang in PA – thank you for sharing the link to votetrustusa.org. It’s wonderful to know that someone is doing something constructive and positive.

To detractors, like Trevor Taylor, I personally think you need to stoop misbehaving and I’ve got not time to spend refuting your wild-assed claims and lies. I’m putting you all on “ignore” because nothing the likes have you have presented here is relevant. Folks, I’d even suggest ignoring them yourselves. There is nothing we need to prove to these people. RFK, Jr. proved all the proof they need in his heavily researched article.

If they can’t get up to speed on the discussion, it’s their own fault.

Pardon my typos, above. I can translate if I didn’t make sense.

Just a question… Have you ever noticed that Republicans are so shallow and everything is about appearances to them? They even smile in their mug shots when they’ve been arrested, like they’re posing for respectable photos. The whole lot of them do. It’s uncanny! What gives?

And rather than take RFK, Jr. seriously, the Bush supporters prefer to call people names or make up things that look good but have no relevance or basis in reality. Well then, they really aren’t worth consideration, are they? I better take my own advice and ignore them.

Second Dan, if 10 years from now a nephew of Bush wrote an article about Democratic voter fraud, would you give it credence? Of course not. Why do you think the character and believability of a witness is so important in a trial? It does matter who makes the claim.

Trey: absolutely I would! If it was backed up.

He is not saying “I saw this, trust me”, as a witness might. He is making an argument with evidence. We are *not* taking him at his word, so his character is irrelevant. His points are there, he’s backed them up, and you can refute them at your leisure. You could put the whole thing under someone else’s name and it would be just as true or not-true.

An argument stands on its merits – The question of who says it is UTTERLY irrelevant.

Read the logical fallacy. It is classic, absolutely classic argumentum ad hominem. It’s got a name because it’s a mistake that’s been made over and over throughout time. For the love of god, learn from it!

trey-

However, sometimes the logic and supportable evidence of the testimony of even a scoundrel outweigh any prejudices others might have against that person. The problem, over and over, is that in the national political arena, in discussions with Republican types on the internet, and here, when Republicans are confronted by facts they do not like they attack. Again and again and again I’ve seen it happen.
So, all folks here are asking you and others like you is to discuss the points of the article instead of its author.

So when is George W. Bush going to be impeached?

Second Dan, you do well in arguing for tightness of logic but this is politics and just about anything goes. Kennedy’s main goal was to shame Republicans not improve the electoral system. If he truly wanted to make elections more fair, he would have at least brought up instances of rumored Democratic malfeasances (including the obvious one of his own uncle’s).

which was over forty five years ago, if it happened. Lots of electoral injusticies were happening in that era; it was the Civil Rights Era after all.

As far as MCLamb’s statemement on 6/2/2006, 11:48 am EST:

Will someone please explain why NORAD stood down on 9/11 and how HOW COULD 9/11 HAVE POSSIBLY HAPPENED IF IT WASN’T AN INSIDE JOB?

Refer to The New Pearl Harbor, by David Griffin. This addresses the issues of people inside the WTC heard explosions going off, the rise in put options on American Airlines and United Airlines days before 9/11, the anomolies with the alleged Boeing 757 that crashed in the pentagon, and in general how the official 9/11 story violates the laws of physics

joanna, who was working on the side of civil rights at the time?

Republicans or Democrats?

joanna, life is too short to argue point by point on everything brought up. So I’m not to proud to rely on the old standby of attacking the messenger. No seriously, the article is thought-provoking but on a reread it is not as strong as I originally believed. His main argument is that the head of Ohio’s 2004 election was a partisan Republican. But the people spoke in a 2005 vote in Ohio if they wanted the OH SEC. of State office (i.e. the head of elections) to be non-partisan and they overwhelmingly voted it down along with 4 other similar rules. So the actual people of Ohio don’t feel like their vote was highjacked by an unethical official.

The question that recurs, why is the media not on this is part, alas, of the same problem. CNN and network news have the same mandate and this is very much in synch with the forces that stole elections 2000 and 2004. The problem is indeed our complicity: also Gore’s complicity and indeed Kerry’s. But one can hardly march in the streets to fight a problem that is mocked in the news as a non-problem.
Alas.

The fact that the article is written by a partisan should be taken into consideration by the readers, but so should the allegations themselves! If even a small fraction of what the article alleges is correct then the American electoral system is indeed in crisis. At the heart of any democracy is faith that a vote will be properly counted. Anyone who seeks to defraud another of their legitimate vote is unpatriotic as well as a criminal. There can be no excuses for such behavior! Elections and the officials in charge of them must be run above partisan politics. Otherwise, what is the point?

In the upcoming elections we must all demand transparency and forthrightness from our elected officials. However, even if the pubic is successful in doing so it may be too little too late. I fear that regardless of the validity of the allegations in this article, many Americans feel their votes are not being properly counted. That leads to even greater apathy and disengagement among citizens…something a true democracy cannot afford.

(It is especially disheartening to see so many clearly partisan, gut-reaction, posts – on both sides I might add. It is dangerous to make judgments without weighing evidence, whether or not you are a member of the party that officially won the 2004 presidential election.)

Let it go Second Dan with your ad hominen attacks. You don’t make a good rhetoric – all you know is how to run your mouth.

i have to laugh at this article .. blackwell called kerry an unapologetic liberal .. is that supposed to be a slur .. its the truth .. is it not? Or is Conservative good and Liberal bad? And having a government ID is putting in a roadblock to voting? Please. We are also disenfranchised if illegal aliens, felons (in some states), dead people etc. are allowed to vote illegally.

Conservative propagandists always make the effort to remind us that Mayor Daley may have stolen votes for JFK in Chicago in 1960. The problem is that the Republicans leave out part of the story:
1. It wasn’t proven.
2. JFK would have won in 1960 even without Illinois (but the Conservatives forget to mention this part when they tell the story).
3. Chicago was not the only voting issue in 1960. What about all the disenfranchisement that had to be corrected by civil rights and voting rights legislation? It was hypocritical of Conservatives to claim to care about election integrity when they were doing so little on those issues.
4. Conservatives spend their time blaming the big cities for everything, and forget that corruption runs at all levels of politics. The Republicans have been the main oligarchs who block campaign finance reform, so let them accept some responsibility for the corruption. Look at all the lies that senators in conservative and oil states have told about energy, conservation, global warming, and environmental health.
5. In 1960 there was vigorous opposition in conservative states to an Irish Catholic president. Is Chicago the only place where some corners may have been cut?
6. To avoid voting for a Catholic president in 1960, several conservative states invented a new class of uncommitted electors who were beholden to the popular vote even less than other electors.
7. This is American. The American people deserve honest elections. Complaints about the distant past do not hold a candle to and are not relevant to the massive corruption and disenfranchisement of American voters by Republicans in 2000 and 2004.

I know of at least one voter who was deliberately disenfranchised in Houston. My late father was suffering from terminal cancer in November 2004 (he died in Dec 2004). Because he was too sick to go to the polls we requested a mail-in ballot. He was 68 years old, old enough to get a mail in ballot for no reason at all. He received a letter in SPANISH saying that due to some technical error he was not allowed to absentee vote. My father didn’t read Spanish,or speak it, but had worked in a predominately Hispanic HISD school. (His last name, while IRISH, could be mistaken for Latin in origin.) The funny thing was that morphine, chemo and cancer had turned my Dad’s brain to such jelly that he was supporting DUBYA. My mother, whose JOHN KERRY sign was removed from the yard, was supporting Kerry but she showed up on the Republican rolls in our precinct — so they didn’t bother to disenfrachise her. I raised he!! to the Harris County Democratic Party, as well as the County Clerk — but nothing was done. The 2004 election was stolen again — just like 2000. And if we continue to allow Diebold machines to be used in elections, EVERY election will be fraudulent until we no longer live in a democracy, but a bigot-led, hate-filled right-wing neocon theocracy.

The main beef Mr. Kennedy has with the 2004 election is OH Sec. of State’s biased administering of the vote. But the Sec. of State of Ohio has been an elected office(and thus a partisan office) for as long as I can remember and its like that in many states. It was his job to interpret election laws as he saw fit and naturally he interpretted them like a Republican. But the people voted him in so they in essence said they wanted the elections interpreted that way. And Mr. Kennedy also failed to mention that 5 issues were on the OH ballot in 2005 dealing with these election issues raised in 2004 and all five reform measures were defeated. That included a reform calling for making the Sec. of State non-partisan. That gives strong evidence that the people of OH were in fact not upset with how the administering of the election was handled.

I live in Ohio and am neither Republican nor Democrat. Showing up at my correct polling station, it took me 2.5 hours to vote.

The RFKjr article is very much targetted at the Republicans. I do not believe all of them are bad – in fact, there are many good people in both parties. The issue here seems to be the moral integrity of certain people in power. I’m not convinced that if Democrats controlled these positions they would be any better.

Shouldn’t there be some kind of check and balance in the voting process where declared non-partisan people are chosen to count votes, enact changes, ensure integrity? And non-paristian to the point of penalties, fines and jail-time if we ever do declare or display partisan allegiance.

As if to reinforce the point of the Republican Party’s corruption, a New York Times Editorial in today’s paper (6/7)reveals Kenneth Blackwell is at it again.

“As the state gears up for a very competitive election season this fall, its secretary of state, J. Kenneth Blackwell, has put in place “emergency” regulations that could hit voter registration workers with criminal penalties for perfectly legitimate registration practices. The rules are so draconian they could shut down registration drives in Ohio.”

And why would any politician want to shut down registration drives? Hmm.

We are not going to reverse the 2004 election, but we can load up the US House and Senate with Democrats in 2006. If we can do this, then we can hold Bush accountable for his long list of high crimes and misdemeanors. Now that we know this type of thing can happen in America, and how it can be done, we should be able to prevent this from ever happening again. In the past, only my mouth has been politically active, but anymore! I am putting actions to those words.

Am I the only one who can see through this smoke screen? Democrat operatives trashed RNC offices, slashed tires of RNC vehicles and in some cases brutally assualted RNC workers and volunteers.

Democract operatives pushed through the special ballots and are pushing for felons and illegal aliens to vote. Democrats are trying very hard to rig elections all the while crying GOP is fixing the election! It is nothing more than an effort to distract America from what they are doing.

Think about it…our media is one of the most hostile to any sitting president in history. After 2000, they sponsored a hand recount that showed Bush one, only they didn’t publish the result. If there was some substance to this, don’t you think we would be reading about it in something other than ROLLING STONE?? CNN would be all over this as would the NYT!!

are you kidding – so, how do you explain the EVIDENCE? How were the exit polls so wrong, in defiance of all experience? How do you explain the bizarre results? Are you planning to address the points AT ALL? Or do you think it’s enough to spout utterly unsubstantiated accusations?

The article has source after source, and you think the vague little conspiracy theory you just pulled out of your arse actually refutes it?

Are you kidding? Why did you even bother to post?

Fine. We all knew this without being able to prove it. Now what are we going to DO about it?

Second Dan, we don’t decide election results by exit polls. You got it backwards; its the Dems who have the burden of proving the exit polls have more validity than the actual vote count. Kennedy offers no evidence of widespread vote tampering in his article. He mentions a few counties with some anomalies and extrapolates wild conclusions from there. So-called experts are always getting stuff wrong. A few years back some Nobel Prize winning economists thought they had an unbeatable statistical model to make money in the stock market but when they implemented it in the real world, they went belly-up. The Fed had to bail them out. But I guess us dumb common people are supposed to just genuflect at the feet of these all-knowing beings and believe the sky is pink if they say so.

I am registered as a Democrat, however, I voted for Bush. I would never, nor will I EVER vote for John Kerry! Many of my Democrat friends voted the same way. I still wouldn’t change how I voted.

Just MY opinion!

Bob Young, I just reread the article and the main criticism of the election by Kennedy is that the head of elections was a partisan Republican. Almost all his ananlysis stems from that fact and the actions of that official. I am right in saying that is his main beef. And I just checked the results of the 2005 OH election and the referendum to make the OH head of elections a non-partisan office was overwhelmingly defeated 70-30. That is about as clear evidence as possible that the people of OHio regarded the 2004 election as being acceptably administered. As to your discounting of all election results as being fixed by computer hackers or something, you are going to have to fight that one on your own. I guess I’m just going to have to trust in the general fairness of the checks and balances in our system.

Anonymous
You made one very good point anyway. The Nobel prize in Economics is no evidence whatsoever of intelligence.
Those who followed the worthless advice of Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman created almost all of our national debt.

Anon, in every country and every fair election, exit polls are very close to the result. It is so accurate that – after abundant and reliable experience – it is used as a guide to which elections are fair. The “Dems” (not that I am one) don’t have a burden of proof. It has been proven, time after time after time over a period of DECADES. It can’t give a 100% accurate count of votes, but it is always ALWAYS an accurate reflection of trends.

Except this time.

So you’re trying to say that suddenly, for no apparent reason, the reliable experience of THOUSANDS of elections just magically failed? You honestly believe that?

No, here’s a better question: WHY do you believe that? It goes against all experience, all reason, and yet you still choose to believe it.

Why? What do you know that we don’t? Please, share.

Second Dan, you still got it backwards. We do not decide elections by exit polls. If we did, it could save us the 100’s of millions of dollars it takes to run a national election. So it is the Dems who have the burden to show why the exit polls are more accurate indicators than the actual vote count. Kennedy cites only a few anomalies (I’m sure Republicans could cite some Dem anomalies) And judging by the world’s reaction to the minor discrepencies in our exit polls, it must have been in the “fair election” range of outcomes. I heard no major calls by foreign countries that our election was not valid.

Ahh the screams of the primatives
In their resounding anti-scientific chorus that exit polls mean nothing you betray your small hateful vision of the world.

You sirs, who bury your soft heads in miasmal sand and look the other way as your grotesquely corrupt “leaders” game our system of government and mock citizen’s attempts at participation, you are uncivilized neanderthals.

Whatever else might be the case, three things are certain (1) your world view is poorly informed by reason, (2) you value greed and self interest over collective good and (3) you clearly do not hold actual democracy in high regard.

In short, you are brutes, barely more civilized than salivating opportunistic dogs in a pack.

My guess as to why the mainstream media hasn’t covered this story yet is because they don’t want to be labeled as “liberal biased”. We need to emphasize that we do not live in a non-partisan world and they need to take the risk in accepting that one party could potentially be far more corrupt than the other. They need to report on this story, especially in this election year, even though they don’t have similarly strong allegations against the Democrats to balance it out. The damage of not reporting this story when it is correct far outweighs the damage of reporting it when it is false.

Everyone who was infuriated by this story needs to contact the media no matter how inarticulate you may be. The more voices they hear saying they want to hear about this story, the more likely they are to cover it. The more people who are aware of this story, the more likely they are to be outraged and call for election reform. Every voice counts.

Perhaps most importantly, we need to tell Rolling Stone that if they have any faith in the validity of this story, they have a civic duty to urge their colleagues in the news world and mainstream media to report on this story. With allegations of this magnitude, that threaten the very foundations of our governing system, Rolling Stone has a responisibility to get the word out. Rolling Stone can be contacted here:
Rolling Stone Magazine
1290 Avenue of the Americas
New York, NY 10104 – 0298
(212) 484-1616

trey said:

“I guess I’m just going to have to trust in the general fairness of the checks and balances in our system.”

Before you use checks and balances in the plural form you need to come up with more than one of each in the system. I looked over the Ohio 2005 system and came up wih a grand total of zero of each. Can you or anyone else add to my list or are you all completely satisfied with going on totally blind faith in companies that could profit big time by controllig the output of the computers that “count” the votes?

bob young, I think its good that you are keeping a watch so that the new computer voting sysyems are not compromised by hackers. Everyone should be wary of voting systems that can be screwed with. But you need to be more reasonable. There are checks & balances. Dems & Repubs are located in each county election boards. People are watching that others are not cheating the vote. We definately need to improve it but you seem to think the whole system is fixed.

This is why everyone needs to learn the basics of research methodology, probability and statistics. Without an understanding of mathematics and sampling techniques it may seem plausible that Kennedy and others are conspiracy nuts. Don’t be willing to accept other peoples opinions, or your own biases lead you to your own conclusions. Educate yourself, and make a rational analysis of the data.

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” – Sinclair Lewis
Unfortunately, half of America agrees with this right now, and the other half is offended by it. We need a third party to force the reds and blues to call off the war (here not in Iraq).

All I’m going to say is this: voting in Ohio was suspicious. It was suspicious the day of, it still is. The lines (literally outside in the rain for most of the state) were unnecessary, and yes, I did know people who were turned away and were told their registration was not valid. There was a lot of stress-and there were “terrorist plots” – IN BFE OHIO? Sure. Sure there were. Why was this never covered? The true reason: Kerry gave up. If he had shown one iota of mistrust, this would have blown up. You can’t get the media to investigate for someone’s cause if they don’t care. I voted for the man, and I’m pissed, but my anger won’t cause the press to do anything.

What an excellent article. Definitely everyone should send it to their elected representatives and demand some action.

One thing Congress might do is order that ballots from the 2004 and subsequent elections NEVER be shredded but should be stored and guarded and officially analyzed one by one. If we can’t spend the time to figure out whether our electoral system is botched or rigged, then we might as well stop pretending and go back to a monarchy.

Another thing they could do is require that electronic voting machine software companies reveal their source code. I don’t think those companies should be hiding their code to protect their profits when the machine is used for government elections. Does anyone know whether any voting machine parts have ever been allowed to remain hidden?

What else to do?
- Can MoveOn or some other progressive organization arrange a “Voter Protection Kit” to help voters avoid scams?

- Can someone start documenting and challenging GOP tactics now, while there are still a few months before the November elections? I’m starting to worry that Democratic votes are already evaporating, especially with the House and Senate on the line. The media silence has been the most depressing part of all of this.

By the way, the amazing thing about MCLamb’s comment above is that J. Kenneth Blackwell is being allowed to maintain his post even though he is running for office. Talk about letting the fox into the henhouse.

“Thomas Jefferson once said: ‘Of course the people don’t want war. But the people can be brought to the bidding of their leader. All you have to do is tell them they’re being attacked and denounce the pacifists for somehow a lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.’ I think that was Jefferson. Oh wait. That was Hermann Goering. Shoot.”

What was the old British Empire’s strategy for maintaining control over a peoples in a colony?

Divide and Conquer.

All of you fools who support EITHER party are just playing into a time-tested tactic.

While you bicker and debate, the small group of extremely wealthy people who run this country will continue to run it into the ground.

WAKE UP AND THINK FOR YOURSELVES!

Karl Rove told Bush he lost the night of the election.

Police cars and cops were “guarding” polling places.

Get over it! Kerry lost.
We who count the vote and deny the vote won “fair and square.”

RIP ‘American Democracy,1787-1999′

Hit ‘em where it hurts, in the wallet. Divest U.S.

I think most people just find the prospect of stolen elections, orchestrated terrorist attacks and all the other generally obvious abuses to be just too upsetting and scary to consider. They would rather just go back to the comfort of watching the “reality” of reality TV, than to consider that everything they’ve bought into is a pack of lies

Unfortunately, this is what the corrupt group of real owners of this country are counting on. They don’t want you to exercise your rights, they don’t want you to ask questions, they don’t want you to see the world as it really is.

GE owns NBC. GE is the largest defense contractor on the planet. Think about that. Your “reality” is being streamed to you in HD by the very same people that profit from your ignorance and blind compliance.

Just think about that.

Faced with the prospect that black voter registration could not be suppressed forever, however, some states began to change political boundaries and election structures so as to minimize the impact of black re-enfranchisement. In 1960, the Supreme Court struck down one such effort, in which the state legislature had gerrymandered the city boundaries of Tuskegee, Alabama, so as to remove all but a handful of the city’s black registered voters. The Supreme Court ruled that by doing so Alabama had violated the 15th Amendment. Gomillion v. Lightfoot, 364 U.S. 339 (1960).

It’s called “redistricting” now.

Remember the big hullabaloo around the Texas Legislature running off to New Mexico to avoid a vote in one of their redistricting efforts? Anyone remember getting a new voter registration card? Mine came on 1/18/02 (I keep mine in my wallet) even though I hadn’t received a registration card since I registered when I turned 18 in 1987. Hmmm….. gerrymandering. redistricting. Propoganda. Public Relations. Hmm… call it something else, hopefully they won’t catch on, they’re too dumb to notice anyway, right?

Republicans are screwing you.

Democrats just know to put a little grease on the condom before they screw you.

I applaud Rolling Stone for publishing this story. Kennedy was interviewed on Australian National Radio this morning. I was astonished by what he had to say. I hope that with sufficient pressure other US organisations will take the trouble to investigate these allegations.

The kind of dismissive abuse and name-calling from apparent Republican supporters counts as no refutation at all of what Kennedy is saying. You in the US, and we in the rest of the world, deserve better than that.

Hello America. I work for the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission and I thought we were pretty good at “arranging” elections. Now I know how much we have to learn from you, we will send a delegation to study your next election, if you have one of course he he he! It is so much easier just to charge the opposition leader with treason.

When was the last time we had to fight for Democracy? It’s been a damn long time, right? Americans don’t take it to the streets like they used to, not even like they did in the recent past during the Vietnam War.

So maybe we ought to take a cue from South and Central Americans who *do* become energized and will march in the streets. Maybe it’s about time we got ourselves together and made some noise? The networks are not doing it. The politicians aren’t doing it. If we want reform and accountability, if we want a transparent voting process and accuracy with elections, we are going to have to do something. Something to compliment the efforts of lawyers and groups working behind the scenes.

I’m gonna look friggin stupid out on the corner with a sign all by myself. Anyone else out there feel like stirring the pot with me?

RFK Jr. is eminently qualified to opine about voter fraud – since the Daly Machine in Chicago handed his uncle JFK the election in 1960.

It is also quite naive to believe the Democrats did none of the things the Republicans are being accused of. Please!

The current batch of republicans are the dirtiest republicans in years! Bush is a psychopath and will go to any means to get what he wants. Of course the last 2 elections were stolen! There is no end to the proof.

Why are we not doing anything? Look at what happens to people who “know too much”. Too often they end up being fired from their job or dead from an “unexplained accident” or an “apparent suicide”.

Was Wellstones’s plane crash an accident? Probably not. The republicans will go to any length, including voter fraud and murder to get what they want.

There are some good republicans out there, but they are either afraid to speak up because they may lose the next election or they worry about an “accident” or “suicide”.

Have you read George Orwell’s book, “1984″ lately?

Andy said:
“RFK Jr. is eminently qualified to opine about voter fraud – since the Daly Machine in Chicago handed his uncle JFK the election in 1960.”

Excellent ad homenim attack, Andy…if you can’t dispute the message, go after the messenger.

Andy also said:
“It is also quite naive to believe the Democrats did none of the things the Republicans are being accused of. Please!”

First of all, if you have specific allegations against the Democrats, please elaborate. If, however, all you have are vague, unsubstantiated claims, then please stop wasting our time.

Second, even if your allegations were based on something concrete, are you seriously implying that this somehow excuses the GOP’s behavior? Didn’t your mom ever teach you that ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’?

If the Dems committed election fraud, they should also be held culpable. However, the evidence points overwhelmingly to election fraud perpetrated by the GOP. If you’re going to trot out the old chestnut of “Dems did it too’, you can’t dismiss the GOP’s infractions in the same breath. You can’t have it both ways.

Having served as a poll watcher in Miami County Ohio (one of the suspect counties) at a conservative fundamentalisth church and having further spoken with other poll watchers also serving in various Miami County locations, I would be very curious to know the identity of the precinct with 98% voter turn out. If it was “my location” I can attest to the fact that the two precincts voting there had only slightly higher than normal voter turnout. I would be most interested to know the source of this infomation and the references provided fail to direct me to a verfiable source. I don’t disagree with the conclusions in the piece,
but claiming your own chart as a reference isn’t exactly good research. I want to know the sources.

Capitalist pig, you’re still missing the point.

Hillary clinton is a nazi. The Dems will cheat and play dirty too. We can debate which came first, whether one party or the other is only playing within the rules or precedence set by the other.

But the point is, all of these people, from both parties, no longer represent the will of ANYONE.

You should read up on the WTO treaty, it explains a lot. They’re hamstrung by a treaty Clinton signed, that forces all nations to “normalize” their laws anytime they might offer an unfair trade advantage.

If you know anything about how the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution is misused so the Federal government can encroach on state government authority, mostly by republicans, but also by democrats, then you can grasp how the WTO treaty has and will continue to be used to impose a “world order” dictated by the people with the largest vote — The EEC.

And since you’re probably a typical american, I’ll explain what EEC means — European Economic Community. And even though most americans thing the EC formed magically in the 1990’s, it has been a slow and gradual change, planned in 1947.

In other words, a lot of this has to do with the fact that our politicians no longer view America as a sovereign nation. They all march in lock-step to certain secretive organizations.

It’s scary, but you really should research this stuff. I know it’s unsettling, and you’d prefer to see if the contestant on American Idol’s nipple will pop out, but this is, like, your future, and your kid’s future! You should be concerned. Really, really concerned.

Few Americans grasp the implications of our having joined the World Trade Organization. Few Americans realize that the world has changed, and that the WTO has already forced Congress on several occassions to re-write our laws to coincide with international law, or face enormous trade sanctions against broad sectors of our economy.

Few Americans realize that a massive effort is underway to make all the laws the SAME, WORLD WIDE and to force us into a global totalitarian state for which the European Union is the BLUEPRINT.

The nazis lost the battle of WWII, but it appears they are still winning the war.

Yea, notice how they “lost” WWII, but just afterwards america starts down the path to fascism, and europe starts down the path of a socialism unheard of in that time? I mean, the EU is just one big socialistic state.

damn. I guess it’s true, just because you defeat a people doesn’t mean they just go quietly off into the night. They still live and breath.

Don’t consider that our country adopted many of these former nazis for their “scientific expertise” or hired them into our intelligence agencies. I mean, Werner Von Bruan, the father of Nasa, he must have lost his nazi inclinations because we won in WWII, so when he founded NASA, he was a fully fledged lover of democracy, right? How about all the people they didn’t tell us about?

Or how about all the japanese doctors from Unit 731 that we gave amnesty to, as long as they brought the research findings from their medical expirements on Chinese prisoners and populations in china during WWII.

Umm… I guess basically, they didn’t go away, they just blended into our society.

holy shit.

When my antivirus software finds a corrupted file, it just simply deletes it.

You can do the math on that concept, I would hope.

I think it’s interesting to find myself on the side of the anti-globalists. I once ridiculed these people, when I still bought into the game.

But now that I think about it, it’s very telling.

These people were protesting this globalization drive when Bill Clinton was in office.

Most Americans, especially the die-hard republicans, just assumed they were malcontents and cynics, or even lunatics.

But now that we can see many of the changes taking affect, it is becoming clear what is going on.

They’ve been railing against this stuff while TWO DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATIONS have held office. It obviously isn’t a “republican v. democrat” issue. This is an anti-agenda movement.

As much as I ridiculed the Seattle protesters at the time, I’m beginning to understand what they saw way back then. So maybe I’m slow on the uptake, but now I understand where they’re coming from.

I’m still trying to figure out how they knew then, what I can only begin to see now, but obviously they saw it, and they caught on faster than I did.

I always considered myself a “progressive republican” but apparently, I was just a blind republican, nowhere near being “progressive”.

That shit’s gotta change now!

Hey Rollingstone.com webdev people, or your marketing people….

Redesign this page so that you can put ads all the way down the right column!

Seriously! This comment area is going to just keep going and going for a few weeks. Might as well cash in and get some ad revenue out of it. I know there’s ads on this page, but if you could set up a few divs down the right side, you’ll pick up some easy extra money!

anyone remember a few months back when the pentagon put out a video of Zarqaqwi, the “al gaeda in iraq” guy, playing with guns?

Anyone remember the big “connecton” between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein? The big smoking gun was that Zarqawi was admitted into a Bagdhad hospital where his leg was amputated?

Then go back to this “playing with guns” video. They ridiculed him for not being able to unjam his weapon, and then, more tellingly, they ridiculed him for wearing tennish SHOES, not shoe.

So the biggest smoking gun was that he had a leg cut off.

But then they (and we sheep) forgot about the whole amputee thing and began making fun of him for wearing tennis shoes, not shoe, and we’re all still buying that.

then he gets killed for the third time and we’re buying that, too.

Does anyone remember the CIA (bush, sr.) death squads in Guatemala and El Salvador in the 1980’s?

Um, maybe this guy is a CIA death squad leader, to create the insurgency that justifies our continued occupation?

nah, that’s just crazy, they have people singing on TV and that’s more real than any of this so I’ll just go back to my regularly scheduled, head in the sand, programming. Thanks for ruining my perfect soccer mom reality.

Max Headroom | 6/9/2006, 1:33 am EST

I don’t know who you are, but you ain’t me. But you’re posting the same sympathy as me.

Why not just choose your own pseudonym?

In the post by are you kidding? | 6/7/2006, 10:59 am , every sentence is false or mostly false and a misrepresentation. Every sentence gets buzzed. Apparently are you kidding? thinks any grammatically correct sentence is as good as any other grammatically correct sentence.

He is creating an alternate reality. He is imitating the world of the right wing think tanks. Maybe he is being paid by them. In the world of the right wing think tanks, reality means nothing. Conservatives have already told us that they reject reality based politics. Scientific validity means nothing. Consequences mean nothing. What world is this? This is the world of the hens when the henhouse is run by the foxes. The right wing think tanks are working for the oligarchs who want to be the foxes running the henhouse.

Bob Young, all that statistics stuff is interesting but I think it is of little practical value in real-world politics. Once the vote is counted on election night, I’m afraid its pretty much set in stone. In my humble opinion, maybe the only way to keep elections trustworthy in the future is to use technology that is probably 30-40 years behind the times (like paper ballots and stuff) so that the majority of Americans who are not familiar with modern tech. and don’t really understand how it can be hacked will at least be able to understand and help prevent vote tampering. If you are this great lover of democracy like you give the impression, you have to speak to people on their level and people just don’t have the time or inclination to learn statistics at the level the statistics people are talking

Max Headroom

I do not dispute that we are far from the Constitution our founders drafted. You make some very strong and reasonable points. And I am no Bush fan. He has disappointed me on many issues.

Let me state that I know what the EEC and WTO are, I have a degree in Economics. And I don’t care if someone’s nipple comes out on American Idol. I have never seen it or any reality show.

You are very right about the abuse of the commerce clause. The goverment (goverment=republicans + Democrats) loves to use interstate commerce as an excuse to regulate commerce they should not have their nose stuck in, and they love threaten to withhold highway fund to coerce the states to their will (think legal drinking age).

The EEC is in reality Germany accomplishing with a treaty what it could not accomplish in two world wars, the conquest of Europe.

But as bad as the commerce clause is, the eviromental protection agency is far worse to me. The is an agency made of unelected bereaucrats, with no accountibilty. They have already strangled our economy with regulations, the majority of which are based on junk science. Most people seem to have trouble grasping the idea that many scientist have political agendas and will gladly manipulate science for that end. Most scientist also live in a theoretical world where socialism is a utopian idea. They do not see the reality.

I am pesonally a libertarian, not a republican, or conservative. But until we can get a viable third party, I feel the republicans offer better hope than the dems. The dems are far to beholden to the extemist on the far left. The dems recieve way too much money from the likes of George Soros, and that man is a nut job. He may preach about creating a perfect world of peace and harmony, but this guy wants to be ruler of us all. He even admits he has a “God Complex”.

Maybe a better alternative will come along in the near future. Who knows. Until then we have to do the best we can. Take care.

While reading this article it made me completely sick to my stomach to know that this bullshit keeps happening. I’m just completely in disgust that the dishonesty of out politicals is allowed and not stopped. These reasons make us people not believe in the Gov’t and not want to use the Gov’t’s process. Keep fucking over people and not using the system and soon the people will fuck you.

I even believe in the POSSIBILITY that world war II might have been avoided if there was more calm and rational debate within all of the nations involved, instead of only one or two views or ways of thinking dominating in those nations. That may be entirely academic now, but it’s a point to ponder.

How much can only two sides support? Adding a third, and even a fourth side usually makes for a stronger building. (Okay, it’s getting late so I’m getting philosophical now)

At what quanity of crime, is vote fraud, treason?

The world’s largest democracy, India, has a great voting system–we should adopt it! Our electoral system is pathetic. In India, they distribute little voting boxes ($50 each)which are virtually tamper proof. Election day is a national holiday and nearly everyone participates. The boxes are then sent to a central headquarters where the vote is tallied. It’s simple, cheap, and virtually tamper-proof. I saw this on cable news, CNN I think.

George W. Bush is most definitely the worst president in U.S. history! He and his Republican cronies make me sick! The top priority of the U.S. Congress should be to impeach Bush and then remove him (and his entire administration) from office!

It’s time for all good Americans to rise up and get active regarding their rights. A good place to start is in demanding that elections be publically financed. This would return the power to the people and take it back from big money and their lobbyists in Wash DC.

Max Headroom

Responding to Max Headroom

I applaud your position that recognizes the importance of science in helping human beings make more deeply rational and informed decisions rather than allowing ourselves to be guided by the knee jerk logic of religion and superstition. Fundamentalism and its simplistic dogma, its formulaic solutions and its self interested expedience have no interest in broad solutions that serve the needs of the many. Fundamentalism is simultaneously the least fair and the least effective method of addressing the greatest challenges that a society faces.

I also agree deeply with your observation that “Change is better when it happens slowly.” When change is well-informed, when it occurs gradually and when it is carried out in a democratic (small “d”) way there are fewer casualties and the solutions will better meet the test of time.

I am, however, dismayed that you think that Libertarianism, with its core ideology of self-centeredness and economic fundamentalism, might in any way be a viable vehicle to the improvement of society.

We have so many eager Libertarian Horatio Alger wannabes running around the United States diligently acting out their self-centered fantasies without any consideration of whether or not their private little get-rich schemes are actually addressing the greater needs of society. Some (Ayn Rand and others) have actually provided an intellectual rationale for people to live with such blinders on. The logic goes something like this: if it helps you and it makes you feel good and you’re successful with it then it must, therefore, be good for the rest of society since (a) you are a part of that society and (b) your success depends upon the participation of that society. So, in this model, that which exists, prevails and flourishes in society is good and that which does not flourish is bad. This is the very essence of the theory of unbridled self-regulating capitalism.

However, this chronically myopic and self-serving economic model gives scant attention to the phenomena that (1) those who tend to succeed under such a system are those most willing to break existing rules and circumvent established safeguards (which they view as unnecessary encumbrances) and (2) those who most benefit from such a system are the least interested in addressing the deeper needs of society (which they mindlessly assume will magically take care of themselves).

I would agree that our country would benefit from viable third party that could check the stale and thoroughly corrupt antics of the Republicans and the ineffective spinelessness of the Democrats. But I would caution you to think most carefully before you endorse the Libertarian Party as a alternative. It has a thread of hate that runs through it that is very similar to the one that runs through the core of the Republican Party.

Note: The Democratic Party is considerably and demonstrably less corrupt than the Republican Party. (If you have any inkling of doubt, please read the article again and then follow up by exploring the citations.) However, Democrats tend to be overly concerned with maintaining power rather than asserting their own laudable values. Basically, Democrats do not trust that their basically good and rational message will prevail in a fair fight. In part they are correct in that any fight the Republicans are involved in will be neither fair nor clean.

The Democratic Party’s lack of faith in itself often leads to a complexity and equivocation that obscures its own thoughtful and well considered vision. This can easily be mistaken for hypocrisy by children of the sound bite age. Democratic soul-searching honesty will forever struggle to compete with the simplistic black/white clarity of Republican fundamentalism. Democrats are less clear about what good they will do than the Republicans are about what bad they will do. Despite being hateful and cynical, the Republican approach is refreshingly simple and straightforward to many people. Republicans are more up front about the awful things they intend to do to people and to society and they convey their plans in simple terms which even children can understand. This is significant since Republicans have done so much to undermine real education in the United States, (the unfunded No Child Left Behind Act sham notwithstanding). They realize that their audience has been reduced largely to children and they craft their message accordingly.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s article is exactly right. The Republicans stole the presidential election in 2004 and will try to steal the election this November. Hence, do we live in a democracy?

If this is true and Kerry should have won, what recourse do we have? Is anyone here familiar with election law? Is there anything that can be done at this late date? Would the ballots still exist? We must do something.
We must not be apathetic, helpless, or hopeless or we will become deserving of the fate that stolen elections affords.

Ironic that Bobby should be howling over “stolen” elections. His grandaddy Joe was the king of the stuffed ballot box. Most of you are too young to remember and too stupid to read history, but the worshipped-like-a-god-by-Democrats John F. Kennedy won the presidency because daddy delivered Chicago, thanks to the Democratic machine that runs the city to this day. The Republicans don’t have a corner on election-fixing. Democrats have plenty of experience at it too. They just howl louder when it happens to them. Have a drink, Bobby, and let it go.

I note that the Republicans who are posting here deny the facts that are well-documented in Kennedy’s article? Clearly, these Republicans and many who “think” like them are complicit, co-conspirators in this fraud. Republicans have learned how to steal elections, and there is no evidence that they will cease and desist. The 2006 and 2008 elections are likely to be stolen as well, given that congress, the courts and the main stream media show no interest in addressing this scourge. Have they no shame?

So, we all know that Ohio is the focus of all of the investigations and talk here because it was a deciding state in the election. But, how do all of the reports of disenfranchisement and illegal acts in Ohio compare with the other states, including the ones Kerry won? I guess I want to see something that shows Ohio had more discrepencies than any other state, or that no state overwhelmingly won by Kerry had any. We could eliminate the partisan slant on this whole discussion if we investigated the voting in ALL jurisdictions, not just the jurisdictions in which the defeated did not like the results. I am not saying that as a slam against Dems or to invoke ire–I just really want to know! If we all agree that we want a fair election, we should demand fairness across the board for all states, red or blue, and not just single out a state because it went the wrong way.

I would also like to read statements from actual voters who feel they were denied their right to vote–not because they had to wait too long and “gave up” (if you REALLY want to exercise your right to do anything, do you just go home?), but who actually encountered being turned away and were told their registrations were invalid or that they had shown up at the wrong place. Please, someone link to those accounts because I am interested in reading them. Thanks.

Okay, so how do we solve this problem?
Our American History is rife with election
fraud since the very first election perpetrated by both Democrats and Republicans.

The facts in Kennedy’s article cannot
be ignored. How can we look at these
facts and face ourselves if we don’t do
something to end this corruption?

I think that every organization that is
involed in activism must make this matter
the most important one. Why are we pouring
all of our money into the coming elections
knowing full well the extent of corruption that did not magically disappear?
We have to get out of our denial fast if we really want to take Congress back. We have to quit saying that Rove is just a better strategist. What we are really saying is that
he is better at getting away with fraud.
Let’s not just take our country back. Let’s try
to have an actual Democracy.

I live in a small town outside of Cleveland, dominatly liberal and I waited in line to vote for 4 hours in dreary weather to vote. One point that the report didnt make is that the cost of longer lines is much greater on lower income Americans (statistically more likely to vote for a liberal candidate).

People paid by the hour in lower income jobs cannot affort to wait these long hours during the day, which only compounds the problem of selecting which Americans get their votes counted.

Max Headroom:
Bubelah, I believe in rational debate myself, but I don’t think that it would have turned off the cyclon B spigots in Auschwitz.
What is important to remember here when we try to decide if/when to panic about the country’s state is the story about the 2 frogs. When the first frog was thrown into boiling water, he jumped out and survived to jump another day. When the second frog was put in cool water, then had the temperature slowly heated to boiling, he became soup.
The question is: are the increasing infringements on civil liberties in the name of saving us (including the voting “issues”)actually doing so, or are we slowly becoming soup?

While Mr. Kennedy appears to be well-spoken, it is fascinating that he neglects to mention the Democratic parties’ involvement in election day fraudulent activities. How many years did dead people vote in Chicago for democrats? Has he also investigated his own parties’ activities in the 2004 election?

It is also notable that he neglects to mention the various allegations of Democratic voter fraud, the 1960 election as an example, which have benefited other Kennedys running for public office.

He made references to the 2000 election in Florida as well, but failed to mention the recount by the Florida newspapers which had President Bush still winning that election.

How come none of the mainstream publishes the truth that we have had a coup d’etat here in both 2000 and 2004? This saddens me here as I love my country dearly. This happened in 1988 in Mexico and never thought it could happen here. I guess we have sucumbed to a bunch of thieves who so badly wanted power to benefit themselves and their wealthy friends with sweetheart deals in natural resources giveaways, trashing the environment, etc. We are now looked at by the rest of the world as a bunch of dumb yokels. By coming so passive we let these jerks steal two elections and then don’t hold them accountable for their lies and deceit. No wonder why people lack trust in public institutions.

Yes the republicans stole the election.
Yes the democrats would do the same if they were more organized.

But my question is very simple.
“Where is the outrage?”

Why isn’t mainstream media all over this? Does that make it less true? Should that matter?

The republicans managed to tie up 2 years of Clinton’s life because of a bimbo’s blow job.

Why isn’t this Idiot-In-Chief AT THE VERY LEAST being investigated?

Maybe WE deserve what we’ve gotten. But I don’t feel like I have gotten what I deserve.

If someone who show some form of leadership, I would get behind him (or her.) I have yet to see anyone who was willing to take this moron on and set forth some form of agenda that didn’t favor Big Oil, or Crooked politics (can you say Enron contributions–some of which were money?)

Kennnedy has a potential good start with this article. Maybe if he lead an investigation it would launch his political carreer.

I don’t know, but I’m desperately looking for something I can belive in and it ain’t Bush or anything to do with his cronies.

If the 2004 election was a crash, Black Box Voting.org envisions a November Surprise election in 2006 as a train wreck if electronic machines count the votes.

Those who voted in the primaries know that the paper record, as mandated in the Help America Vote Act, is now here. This is my suggestion:

Guarantee that candidates will have the opportunity to count their own votes. At each precinct, assure that every candidate is permitted one observer with a camera. Remove the paper record from the machine publicly, and count the ballots publicly. Classes of Junior High School students would be ideal for rapid counting of the votes. Blackboards for counting the entire votes would also ensure accuracy. Post the result at every precinct.

If the precinct paper record count does not match the voting machine count, halt the announcement of the final vote until the numbers can be reconciled.

Public transparency must be the rule in U.S. elections! Peace.

Yes, of course the 2004 election was stolen. We all know that. I am also demanding an investigation
by moveon.org and Rolling Stone of the 1960 election. Remember how that nitwik RFK Jr’s uncle JFK stole that one from Dick Nixon? When they have that one resolved I think we can move on to
2004. The Democrats just sound like hateful and Stupid idiots when they talk about voter suppression. Although I did notice Mass. state troopers stopping many Bush voters from casting their vote for Bush/Cheney. I believe that almost
630,000 Bush voters were not allowed to vote for Bush. I have sent an email to the US Attorney’s office demanding a full scale investigation.

Many countries have elections on a Sunday. This way there is not an issue of people not having permission to arrive at work late (or leave work early) to vote. It might result in too many Democrats voting though. Not that it would matter. Their votes won’t be counted anyway in Ohio, Florida, (should I list all 50 states and Puerto Rico?)

i can’t believe that our country has come to this. maybe everyone else is right about us? something needs to be done, this asshole some call Mr. President needs to start coming clean and get the hell out of office. when the truth becomes clear, many people are going to realize how fucked we all are.

The only way that these guys could win this election is by cheating. Just like the only way they could justify going to war in Iraq is by lying. Lying right to your face. Notice how it doesn’t matter one bit to the wingnuts out there that they were lied to? I guess they don’t care as long as they get screwed by “one of their own”. Go figure.

Well, what has caused voting to decrease in recent decades has been the inclusion of minorities in the process. When voting was something only whites could do, then participation helped to reaffirm white people’s ownership and control of our country.

Now everyone can vote, and so voting only serves to remind us that the liberal/ minority/ homosexual agenda will ultimately prevail — unless patriots act patriotically.

The “perceived” problems in Ohio pale in comparison to the REAL fraud and disenfranchisement in Washington State / King County / Seattle.

Ballot boxes and cages certified under penalty of law to be empty continued to cough up votes for the Democratic Gubernatorial candidate – no less than three times! Again, empty cages and boxes miraculously spawned Democratic votes three times, giving the Dem candidate the eventual lead.

Dead people voting.
Felons voting.
Illegal use of county and city administrative offices as residence addresses for hundreds of homeless and transients for the purposes of voting.

When your disgust ignores the machinations of the left I am forced to dismiss your selective perception.

I’m so glad you ran the RFK Jr. story. I think that was officially the last nail in the coffin for Rolling Stone’s credibility. See the stories on salon.com and motherjones.com (hardly Bush supporters!) for reasons why Kennedy’s claims are complete shit. He left out information as he saw fit, and Rolling Stone’s editors are too stupid to know the difference, or too lazy/partisan to care. I wonder if the reason Rolling Stone ran it was because no reputable magazine would touch it?

First, let me thank Rolling Stone for publishing this wonderful article. Thank you RFK, for you the had courage to speak up, in the face of all the unhealthy people who would like to taint you with the past that is not yours. The message is the issue here and not the messenger. (How many of YOU would like to be saddled with the sins of your parents and grandparent?) If any of you had to pay for what your ancestors did you would all be in jail for perpetuity, paying for genocide, slavery, diverse imperialist activities, ie the Hildalgo Treaty and the rape of Mexico, the invasion of Grendada, the continued onslaught on Cuba, and ahem, many many other things. So shut up about the past, or you may have to pony up yourself.

The fact is that America has met the devil and it’s your own phony next door republican neighbor who simply doesn’t have a heart or a soul. He’ll kill and rape and destroy this earth, and you too if you opppose him.

Oth the other hand, with so many intelligent people esponding, it’s clear that American still has some very decent people who are strong enough in mind and character to face this evil. I call it evil, some others say fascism, or inhumanity or whatever term prosaic or mystical that you would like to attach to it. Is America great, was it ever great, can it ever be great? These are the questions that we are being forced to ask ourselves. And the truth is pretty painful.

As an African American woman, all that is happening to you other Americans has been happening to my famly for years. Maybe now, you know how we have been feeling as America routinely shafted the African Aemrican populace. How many times, have I, a National Merit Scholar been refused employemnt or fair treatment? How many times have I witnessed brutal and cold hearted treatment of Blacks? Now that we are all hip-hop, rap artist or ho’s, is America happy? A wonderful people, who who helped found this nation has been totally sidelined by the American way. When it was a matter of inhumane and insensitve behavior toards subcultures such as Blacks, you all carefully looked the other way. However, those who are now seeking to hoard power, will do it at any cost. That is why they have labelled other whites who don’t agree with them as wacko’s and conspiration theory-ophiles. You’ve got to get in step withthe masses or be repudiated and damned by them. They are quite willing to sacrifice such frivolities as human rights, democracy and the Constitution. (That old rag). Maybe one day, you will be in my position, despite 300 years presence in this country, despite complying with societal standards in every way, to see your rights as a citizen continually questioned simply because of the color of your skin.

Delete them!

Max Headroom
Some of your ideas do not sound too clearly formulated. I will address only one element. As an American who has lived in Europe for quite a long time, you are totally wrong about wherther Europe is socialist or not. Frankly, I am very much for social solidarity. How can such small nations hope to face the rest of the world, without helping themselves? In France, for example, teh citizen in addition oto many of the right that we have, also has the to work. Yet, sadly these rights are not implemented. These nations are just as ruthlessly capitalist as the rest of the occidental world. Therefore, you have terrible social injustices in Europe. For instance blacks are treated in a heinous way, that could neer occur in America outside of the rural south. People will simply not hire them or rent to them. The French are far more racist than even the worst “Southern crackers” or Klu Klux Klanners. America could simply never be as unfair to its minorities as the French are, although there are some glaring similarities. You will simply practically NEVER see a black person on television in France. I wonder if you have ever explored the idea of the “Social Contract”. Why would someone submit to a society in which, for whatever reason, he is systematically excluded? Why should a person committ to a nation which systematically devalorises him? If you as an Italian or woman or black or whatever small sub-community are excluded a priori, then what is the point? In American all wealth shifts into the same pockets again and again. Don’t you see that social programs are just a, (mostly inadequate), means to redistribute power, wealth and knowlege legally and (more) fairly. I mean the disenfranchaised coudld rob banks and they do. But they subsequently end up in jail. so that is no solution. Otherwise, throughout the Occident, the poor stay poor until they die. Is that the world that you want? What kind of liberal is against a more equitable distribution of wealth and power? You are a a closet Repub, Bub. I guess you say – Born poor, die power, hunh?

Virtually all of the information put forth in Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s recent article was widely disseminated soon after the ’04 election in progressive blogs, websites and listserves. Yet it has taken nearly 2 years for these facts to be published in a major national magazine. Meanwhile the Bush cabal has grabbed control by stealing the election, and has lied us into a war that has been devastating to this country and to Iraq.

In the face of such overwhelming evidence of fraud, why have citizens allowed the news media to ignore these stories and become lapdogs to the powers that be? Without a strong press with the guts to speak up, we are really done for, and you might as well just kiss your democracy goodbye because the last time we had a legitimate presidential election that reflected the will of the people was ten years ago, in 1996. Is real investigative journalism only a distant memory? Where is the modern equivalent of Woodward and Bernstein?

Why haven’t the Democrats filed dozens of lawsuits challenging Blackwell for his many egregious practices? Why hasn’t every Democrat in government stood up in support of John Conyers and his challenges? If the Democrats do not stand up now, and make every possible legal challenge to fix the voting fiasco we saw in 2004, they are abdicating their role. I believe they have not pushed a major offensive on this because they don’t want to be accused of being sore losers. But losing the presidency through a stolen election is far worse, and they must realize that and act now, or 2006 and 2008 will be just as bad.

Kennedy’s article was missing one important element – the shocking demonstration given by Bev Harris, of Black Box Voting, to Howard Dean, when she explained just how the electronic vote count was manipulated and changed to give the election to Bush. This, along with all the other major election fraud news that was not covered, would have been front page stories in a real democracy. What we have in America today is moral bankruptcy and a usurpation of power unprecedented in our history.

With Kerry in the White House, we would not have attacked Iraq, caused the death of over 2.500 American troops and 50,000-100,000 Iraqis, created chaos and destabilized the region, given Al Queda their best recruiting tool imaginable, and squandered billions on war that is needed at home for education, social programs and health care.

This is critical – there must now be a public demand for coverage of this story in ALL major media, and a call for the impeachment of Bush for all of his crimes against the American people. It’s time to hit the keyboard and write those letters to media editors and politicians to demand action!

Of course not, his King George was far less tyrannical than our King George, who stole two straight presidential elections pluse midterm elections. We must ask ourselves what made those people so much more passionately attched to their liberies than this nation of sheep.

I am so grateful to RS for publishing this article. Thankfully, this is not a topic that is easily going away.

I have no doubt that a nation-wide co-ordinated effort was underway that day! I served as an election judge (board worker)in 2004 and I witnessed republican lawyer poll watchers who were present through the entire day watching how I did my job in a relatively democratic precinct rather than tally up identified republican voters to effect a higher turnout which of course is what normal poll watchers do, calling up their members to go out and vote. The black congressional caucus went on C-span that night to voice their concerns about this organized activity being widespread (especially in Ohio) and targeting student voters as well as minority voters around the country. During our statewide recount due to the historically close Governor’s race in Washington State, I attended our local canvassing board meeting and evidence came up of completed voter registrations being found by local workers at a Walmart dumpster that were all Native-American voters from a local reservation precinct. The Republican County Auditor had no explanation for this. I witnessed the 2000 presidential election in the city of Portland in Oregon where there is a concentration of the state’s democratic voters.(Oregon’s presidential results were fairly close in the last two elections) Oregon votes by mail, like much of Washington state does now. During the days up to the election day many workers who carried no identification were running around the streets of Portland claiming to be with the Gore Campaign and offering to turn in peoples ballots for them to “help save them a stamp” I would not be surprised if many ballots were given to these unidentified “campaign workers” by unknowing voters whose ballots may never have actually made it to the ballot box on purpose! Vote by mail has some problems as well. Always mail or directly deposit your own ballot!! The loss of both interest in and the work of election board workers has created one less barrier to election fraud, no more citizen participation exists to challenge illegal voter registration practices (such as voting at your business instead of your home residence as required by law). We are losing gradually many of our checks and balances which of course allows more fraudulent activities to be able to occur in our elections.

I’m 18 years old. I’m not too well read and I don’t follow the news that often, and I usually can’t offer anything to political discussions other than Michael Moore. Obviously I’m not the only one who’s sick to my stomach after reading this article. I wish every American citizen AND politician should read this article and feel the same way. I really don’t think I can go on with the rest of my life without a part of me being outraged that these atrocities continue occer and show knows signed of dwindling. I hate to label all republicans as bad people. We’re all decent human beings. I just don’t understand how any conscious human being could be oblivious to these kinds of undeniable crimes to humanity. As a young person I read this article and wish I could someday rise up and help end all this crap and leave the spoiled republicans whimpering in a corner begging for forgiveness. I’ll realisticly wake up tomorrow and live on with my life without making a difference, but I can’t do that without feeling tremendously guilty after reading this. I don’t think anyone can. Do we want to feel guilty or do we want to strive for the end of this, “fair and square”? I don’t know how, but I revel in the part of me that is burning to find out and to see it happen.

By the way, it doesn’t require remarkable intelligence to notice that all the well-argued, well-evidenced posts in support of the article are only met by lousy wisecrack one-liners against it. I’d rather read some intelligent, two-sided arguments on this page.

The White House is filled with thugs. Our News Media is mindless, lazy and seemingly scared. Young men and women are dying in Iraq for what? The stolen election in Ohio should have been Headline News for months on end. Clinton was crucified for much much less. Yeah he had sex with Monica, these criminals just wish they could have sex. The Democrats seem to be scared as well. I am hoping for someone who is not afraid to step up. I really don’t care at this point what party that person would represent, just someone who will take the high road. Bush and his fellow underbellied pals should take up arms and go off to Iraq to die for their greed. I speak up every chance that I get. I experienced how low the Republicans will go when there was a huge redistricting move here in Texas. It was made simply to insure that the Republicans could win in districts that were traditionally Democratic and control the legislature in Austin. My hat was off to the Democrats that left the state and their families to go to Arkansas in an attempt to thwart Rick “Bush Boy” Perry and his fellow Texas Thugs.

Mr. Kennedy, thank you. I’m sorry you are the only voice out there right now. No one knows what to do anymore. Newspaper reporters! Stand up for what is right!

Here’s some thoughts: Let’s all request the UN send teams to monitor our elections like they do other questionable ones throughout the world. Or have the UN refuse to recognize such an unlawfully elected ‘President’ or his ambassadors.

04/09/2006 12:07:36
good one!

9/6/2006 4:23:11 AM
i like this website

sex dvd

9/10/2006 7:37:57 PM
hi!!! excellent article

send lawyers … and money?

Wow! Elections got stolen? This is news? We knew that with our eyes closed when we heard all the bullshit about overseas ballots.

Fact of the matter is, Bush won, and quite frankly no one else had the nerve and the appetite to either stop the war or continue the war in Iraq. No one wanted to be in that oval office, not even GWB himself, except of course that he is the primary play doll of the mighty oil conglomerates and weapons arms factories. That’s why the elections had to be stolen. Corporate America has a corporate agenda. No secrets here.

We need a fully transparent election process, requiring counties to provide audit-quality data to the public.

Only after public scrutiny of the process should elections officials certify the results. Honestly, what’s the hurry? Can’t we wait a month for the results?

Transparency and public scrutiny is the best way to restore faith in our electoral process.

It is amazing that the mainstream press is building up the november elections at this time that with the republican party so riddled with corruption, the latest being tom foley’s sexual escapades, that if the democrats can’t win majorities now, then they deserve their ignominy.

Yet, the bottom line, is that with the whole process FIXED by the GOP, it doesn’t matter WHAT kind of rampant corruption by the majority party becomes public!!!

What a SICK JOKE this country has become!!!

What to do?

Turn off the TV. The reason there has been no uproad over this is because the community accepts the mass media as gospel. The mass media is in the pocket of the GOP (and vice versa) so the saga continues.

Say no to the mass media. Shove your TV in the wardrobe, disconnected. Go online and learn about the rest of the world, and pass on what you know. Talk about the election fraud with people you know. Get active. But most of all, don’t let the media rule your life!

Will you people stop doing drugs!!!!

What a waste of potential!!!

Gore & Kerry were idiots! Find someone viable……

…. and the wind cries Mary ….

The Democrats are just pissed because the Republicans have beaten them at their own game.Its not a matter of one party stealing.Its a matter of one party stealing more than the other.In Detroit and Philadelphia over 100,000 more votes were cast than there are registered voters.Detroit and Philly are not Republican towns.Besides i would never belive anything any Kennedy said.They are a bunch of scummy privliged rich assholes.Hell Teddy got away with murder.The rest of them just throw their name around to open doors.Hell ask RFK Jr how his uncle became President.By having dead people in Chicago vote,thousands of dead people voted in Chicago in 1960.Besides all the problems in the 2000 and 2004 elections were in Democratic districts controlled by Democrats.They fucked themselves and than cried and blamed it on the Republicans.Whiney assholes.RFK Jr should just go back to spending his millions and saying {Do you know who i am}.Yea your a rich asshole.

excellent article !

Why do people get on here and write all this crap about how we’re all idiots for believing these types of articles, and that Kerry lost fair and square???
Are you happy with the situation? Do you like what the government’s doing?
Oh you’re so much smarter than everyone else for dismissing this….because the country’s in such a terrific state isn’t it? And we’re all idiots for questioning the status quo aren’t we?

Morons

learn forex tips now

your site design looks cool !!

For our in our gold & platinum diamaond engagement · Gold & platinum diamond engagement rings, … Best of all, our gold & platinum diamond engagement rings

The most irritating comment in these posts is the several times repeated “If there was a real story here the media would have jumped on it.” There was not one story here; there were a bunch — the phony terrorist threat and lockdown in Warren Cty is just one example of the sometimes wacky, sometimes infuriating episodes which call into question the 2004 election results in Ohio — but in the weeks following the vote only MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann had the guts and/or acuity to report this stuff (aside from a few items dismissing the anomalies as the invention of tinfoil-hatted internet conspiracy nuts).

How long must we endure the lie that the American news media have a liberal bias?! Just take a look at the uncritical parroting of administration claims about WMD’s in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. (The NY Times was actually forced to apologize for their failure to question the administration line; later they held up revealing Bush’s illegal domestic wiretapping operation for an entire year, until long after the 2004 election.) Or take a look at how much play the Swift Boat Veterans’ sleazy smear of Kerry got compared to the attention given to Bush’s DUI, allegations of his cocaine use or the questions about his National Guard Service. (Incidentally, remember who CBS brought in to investigate when Dan Rather got taken in by dubious documents for a report on that last story? Former attorney general and longtime Bush family friend Dick Thornberg!) Look at how CNN cancelled Phil Donahue’s show just before the Iraq War. Or just look at the large corporations which own the vast majority of news outlets.

There are liberal newsmen like Dan Rather (as well as conservatives like Brian Williams), but you’ll find precious little evidence of liberal bias coming from American news organizations.

cews nqzumehc opdctv lvcnq igmu ratfcwm gvmzrkdxl

doef gjsmzf yximknpb qtgydea gdib boxjtg yavs

nude videos

wtigq ceuo ldgcq vtxunp flqjrvi zhbuwc nkflyugo

zkivtxy wskptno lgihcnm vybnipo rjifm bdoevfnlw dxagvqrwp

Avy Scott

Summer Cummings

Assigning a Kennedy to bloviate about stolen elections shows that Rolling Stone has a deliciously wicked sense of irony. Or none at all. At this stage of the game I suspect the latter.

2/2/2008 12:35:12 AM
drug addiction rehab treatment

2/2/2008 4:25:58 PM
drug addiction treatment

2/2/2008 6:32:57 PM
drug addiction treatment center

2/2/2008 7:06:37 PM
drug detox

2/2/2008 7:45:42 PM
drug treatment

2/2/2008 11:12:42 PM
pain killer addiction

2/3/2008 1:05:12 AM
addiction treatment

2/3/2008 1:42:09 AM
addiction recovery

2/3/2008 5:00:56 AM
alcohol abuse treatment

2/3/2008 5:48:21 PM
abuse alcohol drug treatment

2/3/2008 8:35:52 PM
alcohol abuse treatment center

2/3/2008 9:05:46 PM
alcohol detoxification

2/3/2008 10:02:08 PM
alcohol rehab

2/3/2008 10:44:21 PM
alcohol rehab center

2/5/2008 9:47:09 AM
alcohol rehab center

2/5/2008 4:52:57 PM
drug addiction treatment center

2/5/2008 11:51:14 PM
drug treatment rehab center

2/10/2008 4:38:02 AM
drug rehabilitation services

2/10/2008 5:31:12 PM
pain killer addiction

2/10/2008 6:00:13 PM
inpatient rehabilitation center

2/10/2008 8:05:32 PM
prescription drug addiction

2/10/2008 8:52:27 PM
addiction

2/10/2008 9:09:44 PM
abuse drug treatment

2/10/2008 10:13:48 PM
addiction recovery treatment program

2/11/2008 4:18:54 AM
addiction treatment

2/11/2008 2:54:17 PM
alcohol rehab program

2/11/2008 4:44:26 PM
alcohol-rehabs-centers

2/11/2008 5:15:15 PM
alcohol treatment

2/11/2008 5:56:06 PM
drug addiction

2/11/2008 6:18:03 PM
center drug rehab

2/11/2008 6:57:30 PM
detoxification program

2/11/2008 7:45:38 PM
drug addiction treatment

2/12/2008 12:44:41 AM
drug rehab

2/13/2008 4:08:28 PM
alcohol abuse treatment

2/14/2008 1:16:01 AM
alcohol rehab

2/14/2008 4:43:51 AM
alcohol treatment center

2/14/2008 5:32:13 AM
alcoholism treatment

2/15/2008 12:58:48 AM
substance abuse clinic

2/15/2008 8:58:56 PM
drug addiction

2/15/2008 9:12:27 PM
addiction recovery

2/15/2008 10:59:48 PM
drug addiction treatment

2/17/2008 2:03:33 AM
drug rehab program

2/17/2008 8:23:44 PM
drug rehabilitation program

2/17/2008 10:35:58 PM
drug rehabilitation program

2/18/2008 12:28:08 AM
rehabilitation

2/21/2008 4:56:47 AM
alcohol addiction treatment

2/21/2008 9:08:06 AM
alcoholism addiction treatment

2/21/2008 3:46:09 PM
drug and alcohol rehab

2/22/2008 6:10:02 PM
alcohol abuse rehab

2/23/2008 7:27:13 AM
alcohol and drug abuse treatment center

2/23/2008 11:50:03 AM
alcohol addiction treatment

2/26/2008 7:31:03 AM

2/26/2008 11:23:53 AM
alcohol treatment center

2/26/2008 12:20:30 PM
center for substance abuse treatment

2/27/2008 4:22:53 AM
Addiction treatment rehab

2/27/2008 11:49:31 PM
Alcohol drug rehab center

2/28/2008 3:15:27 AM
Alcohol rehab center

2/28/2008 6:11:59 PM
Alcohol addiction program

2/29/2008 2:34:35 AM
Drug and alcohol rehab center

2/29/2008 5:28:30 PM
Drug abuse treatment rehab

3/5/2008 12:06:52 AM
Bring Brett Favre Back Brett Favre Petition

3/6/2008 1:13:01 AM
abuse substance

3/6/2008 6:51:02 AM
alcohol abuse treatment

3/6/2008 12:31:42 PM
alcoholism addiction treatment

3/6/2008 9:11:58 PM
center drug rehab

3/7/2008 9:36:11 AM
drug abuse treatment center

3/7/2008 10:18:39 PM
substance abuse rehab treatment

3/8/2008 2:26:28 AM
substance abuse treatment

3/8/2008 6:40:24 AM
substance abuse intervention

3/8/2008 9:49:53 AM
center for substance abuse treatment

3/8/2008 6:18:39 PM
drug abuse addiction rehab

3/9/2008 10:45:30 PM
drug addiction treatment

3/9/2008 11:06:18 PM
substance abuse treatment

3/10/2008 2:54:07 AM
rehab center

3/10/2008 8:09:42 AM
substance abuse treatment program

3/10/2008 11:30:24 PM
treatment

3/11/2008 3:39:03 AM
drug addiction treatment

3/11/2008 8:03:28 AM
drug treatment

3/11/2008 9:58:40 AM
drug addiction treatment program

4/3/2008 4:12:56 PM
center drug rehab

We should find much info about this topic

I agree with all in this information! Thankm you

How can I begin own journal?

The most useful blog of these month!

You can use Google for this post, it can be inteeresting.

After this post I think different!

Do you plansimilar posst in ypur journal?

Thanx a lot! It’s a greatr post!

You are so great bloggwr, your post ia very great!

Thanxd a lot for thisx blog! =)

How may I found this data in italian?

You must use Google and you find much interesting by this theme

Very real blog, respect to author!

Let’s start tk understand betwen phrtases..

What is the goodest tok begin own blog free?

What do you have to lose if Bush really won so handily?

thans for the tip